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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 28 2014 14:28 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 14:14 Shiragaku wrote:On December 28 2014 13:28 Wegandi wrote:On December 27 2014 08:10 IgnE wrote:On December 27 2014 07:50 Doublemint wrote:On December 27 2014 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 27 2014 05:06 Doublemint wrote:On December 27 2014 02:34 IgnE wrote:On December 27 2014 02:14 Danglars wrote:On December 26 2014 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Communists want a class war ? Ho really ?
Communists historically were pacifists, I'm sorry if your all USA history book don't teach you that, but the soviet are not the debut of the communist ideology (more like the tomb). It's Lenin that theorized communism as an armed revolution, in the specific context of Russia.
Class struggle is not a war that communist "wish" to fight for with weapon and all, it's a concept that describe the reality of exploitation in a society that permit accumulation of capital : the interests of the worker class are at war with the interests of the capitalists, the end goal being the end of this class struggle through a reform of property right. I don't think you can spread solace by allowing that Communists acknowledge the reality of exploitation and war, while not wanting a class war. I can only think of how much breath they wasted talking of inevitability, when of course they never meant class war was desirable to their ends. I am much persuaded that the class war and all the misery that resulted from Russia's experimentation with it (sophistry, of course, says they were misguided fools--nobody's ever tried communism to the purity and extent of intellectual's satisfaction) is responsible for much of the current misery of the poor, the real pawns of today's class warriors. Their message echoes, The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. The class war is raging harder than ever, it's not up to the communists whether it continues or not. In the soviet block, at least, everyone but the convicts were comrades. yes to your first sentence. but your second one is just messed up. there was hardly anything - if anything at all - "better" under communism... There was certainly less envy and coveting under communism. Hard to know for sure, but outside of politically related stuff like bribery, corruption, and dissonance it seems the consensus among western scholars is that the USSR had a lower crime rate also. As bad as Communism and the USSR might have been, it wasn't all bad. People putting class warfare on poor people is the height of stupidity IMO. Millions of people, women and children included, die from a lack of basic necessities like food and water every year while others waste more than those people ever see. It's not because they don't work harder than the All-American 'bootstrappers' that think they deserve all they have, but because by the time everyone else is finished extracting their wealth, there just isn't enough left to feed and shelter the people who produced the goods that earned it. The "class war" has been raging for long before any modern political forces embraced it. Although one side has been getting it's ass kicked pretty much the whole time. well... knowing or at least not being naive about what is being done to people in a totalitarian society and under such a regime should help with things like crime rate.
I don't have to embrace anything from the USSR to say that there is a class war going on. what marx - rightfully - described and had a vague idea about is worlds apart from what happened in the USSR. Well, the book is called Capital, not Communism. It was a joke comrades. I was trying to emphasize that the class war is an inherent feature of capitalism, not communism. Marxist Class Theory is mostly wrong. Classical Liberal Class Theory (which predates Marx by the way...see: Dunoyer, Comte, et. al. and then later Oppenheimer, etc.) is much more salient and accurate. The competing classes aren't the 'bourgeois' and the 'proleteriate' or capital vs. labor, but the State (tax-recipients) vs You (tax-payers), and the theory goes back to pre-Statism, and actually describes how States formed, and their effects on the populace, who benefits, etc. Marx completely and totally ignores this crucial distinction and instead attempts to pigeon-hole his preferential ideas of life during the Industrial Revolution and his Class Theory was this way of doing so. Communism and Socialism failed throughout the 16th to 19th Century so his ideas weren't anything new. http://fee.org/freeman/detail/class-struggle-rightly-conceivedThen again, I'm one of those gross folks who proclaim adherence to the ideas espoused by great thinkers like Benjamin Constant, Augustin Thierry, Frederic Bastiat, Lysander Spooner, and the rest of the radical classical liberals (of which most are French..so sad how the French have fallen - they would be so ashamed of modern day France...I digress). I can see you being a big fan of Constant and Basiat, but Thierry, a utopia socialist and Spooner an anarchist of the First International as radical classical liberals? I guess Bakunin and Kropotkin were liberals too since they were against the state. Then again, the Rothbard libertarians are basically people who replace Proudhon's "Property is theft" with "Taxation is theft" I must assume you have the wrong Thierry...No utopian socialist would have been a staunch proponent of the July Revolution for instance. Anyways, most of the radical classical liberals were proto-market anarchists anyways. They did most of the lifting. Tucker and Spooner are most decidedly in the classical liberal / libertarian market anarchist camp which is in no way close to socialism/communism/et. al. I'd imagine Spooner and Bastiat being best buds.
Shit, I guess Blanqui is a liberal too.
I will just leave the judgement of Spooner alone like I do with Adam Smith, there is no point in trying to make an ideological claim to him when both the right and left are heavily influenced by him. I guess what makes those two popular among the right was their attitude towards collectivism and the misconception that socialists do not believe that the individual has the right to their own produce created by labor.
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On December 28 2014 13:28 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2014 08:10 IgnE wrote:On December 27 2014 07:50 Doublemint wrote:On December 27 2014 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 27 2014 05:06 Doublemint wrote:On December 27 2014 02:34 IgnE wrote:On December 27 2014 02:14 Danglars wrote:On December 26 2014 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:On December 26 2014 12:16 coverpunch wrote:On December 26 2014 09:02 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Put it back in perspective ; i never said all change are thanks to extremism, I said they played a part in many change. oneofthem's point was that riot were counter productive. It's untrue, extremism can have, and have had a very good influence on political debate. Meanwhile, I've never seen a group of expert changing a society for the best, they oftentime mistake political matters for technical problem (or mix the two), and don't see (or refuse to see) the conflictual interests behind the technical aspects.
Sometime politics also needs caricature to move forward. This idea that only consensual move and rationnal discussion lead to change is perfectly wrong. In fact, consensus and negotiation usually only leads to the status quo and the place we give to expert in our society also explain our inability to change anything (regarding climate for exemple).
Also, not all extremism are violent. Most extremism in history were, at first, completly pacifist : the first big communist manifestation in France were pacifists, against colonisation. Yet they were extreme because they were considered to be far outside the mainstream political field. The part I quoted was from your post ("Experts and thinkers barely ever had any role in big political change in our societies. Extremists and political activists did.") That reads like you think nearly all changes are thanks to extremism. I find that to be very contrary to American history, where Congress serves a moderating purpose for the sake of compromise and getting the votes necessary to pass legislation. I could accept that Congress isn't full of thinkers and experts and they often rely on their opinions only to the cynical extent that it helps garner support and votes, but I think it's very inaccurate to suggest extremists have been the prime movers of change by shifting the debate. US political history is very different from Europe and especially France, and it's notable the US has often used the French government as a counterpoint for why America should avoid the temptations of big and sudden changes. It's also laughable to say communists were ever pacifist. They WANT a class war. They were against imperialism to the extent that they wanted soldiers to help them kill captains of industry and the rich, not that they wanted no army and no war at all. By definition, extremists want solutions that are unpalatable and unacceptable to the rest of society, which nearly always means killing their enemies in righteous justice. Communists want a class war ? Ho really ? Communists historically were pacifists, I'm sorry if your all USA history book don't teach you that, but the soviet are not the debut of the communist ideology (more like the tomb). It's Lenin that theorized communism as an armed revolution, in the specific context of Russia. Class struggle is not a war that communist "wish" to fight for with weapon and all, it's a concept that describe the reality of exploitation in a society that permit accumulation of capital : the interests of the worker class are at war with the interests of the capitalists, the end goal being the end of this class struggle through a reform of property right. I don't think you can spread solace by allowing that Communists acknowledge the reality of exploitation and war, while not wanting a class war. I can only think of how much breath they wasted talking of inevitability, when of course they never meant class war was desirable to their ends. I am much persuaded that the class war and all the misery that resulted from Russia's experimentation with it (sophistry, of course, says they were misguided fools--nobody's ever tried communism to the purity and extent of intellectual's satisfaction) is responsible for much of the current misery of the poor, the real pawns of today's class warriors. Their message echoes, The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. The class war is raging harder than ever, it's not up to the communists whether it continues or not. In the soviet block, at least, everyone but the convicts were comrades. yes to your first sentence. but your second one is just messed up. there was hardly anything - if anything at all - "better" under communism... There was certainly less envy and coveting under communism. Hard to know for sure, but outside of politically related stuff like bribery, corruption, and dissonance it seems the consensus among western scholars is that the USSR had a lower crime rate also. As bad as Communism and the USSR might have been, it wasn't all bad. People putting class warfare on poor people is the height of stupidity IMO. Millions of people, women and children included, die from a lack of basic necessities like food and water every year while others waste more than those people ever see. It's not because they don't work harder than the All-American 'bootstrappers' that think they deserve all they have, but because by the time everyone else is finished extracting their wealth, there just isn't enough left to feed and shelter the people who produced the goods that earned it. The "class war" has been raging for long before any modern political forces embraced it. Although one side has been getting it's ass kicked pretty much the whole time. well... knowing or at least not being naive about what is being done to people in a totalitarian society and under such a regime should help with things like crime rate.
I don't have to embrace anything from the USSR to say that there is a class war going on. what marx - rightfully - described and had a vague idea about is worlds apart from what happened in the USSR. Well, the book is called Capital, not Communism. It was a joke comrades. I was trying to emphasize that the class war is an inherent feature of capitalism, not communism. Marxist Class Theory is mostly wrong. Classical Liberal Class Theory (which predates Marx by the way...see: Dunoyer, Comte, et. al. and then later Oppenheimer, etc.) is much more salient and accurate. The competing classes aren't the 'bourgeois' and the 'proleteriate' or capital vs. labor, but the State (tax-recipients) vs You (tax-payers), and the theory goes back to pre-Statism, and actually describes how States formed, and their effects on the populace, who benefits, etc. Marx completely and totally ignores this crucial distinction and instead attempts to pigeon-hole his preferential ideas of life during the Industrial Revolution and his Class Theory was this way of doing so. Communism and Socialism failed throughout the 16th to 19th Century so his ideas weren't anything new. http://fee.org/freeman/detail/class-struggle-rightly-conceivedThen again, I'm one of those gross folks who proclaim adherence to the ideas espoused by great thinkers like Benjamin Constant, Augustin Thierry, Frederic Bastiat, Lysander Spooner, and the rest of the radical classical liberals (of which most are French..so sad how the French have fallen - they would be so ashamed of modern day France...I digress).
"But if Marx’s labor theory of value falls and if exchange is fully voluntary and void of state privilege, then no exploitation occurs. (Marx’s exploitation theory was later systematically refuted by the Austrian economist Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk, who showed that some of what we call profit is in fact interest arising from employers’ advancing wages to workers before the final product is sold.)"
The article you linked is an example of classic libertarian legerdemain. "Well if we just ignore Marx, and if we ignore the problems of property: what it means to own property, why property is distributed like it is, whether it is moral, who enforces property rights, who justifies the existence of such an enforcer, then we can pretend that all transactions are purely voluntary, that is completely absent coercion, and then we can say inane things like there are producers and there are unproductive leeches, and it all works out." Please. It's just childish.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this austrian stuff is just stubbornness to a t. marxist economics would be close to being true if there was no technological change , or unions.
in other news, the NSA compliance office released some reports on abuses, some intentional, committed by the agency in the past few years. a lot of stuff to comb through but there'll probably be some media summations on it later.
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KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — The war in Afghanistan, fought for 13 bloody years and still raging, came to a formal end Sunday with a quiet flag-lowering ceremony in Kabul that marked the transition of the fighting from U.S.-led combat troops to the country's own security forces.
In front of a small, hand-picked audience at the headquarters of the NATO mission, the green-and-white flag of the International Security Assistance Force was ceremonially rolled up and sheathed, and the flag of the new international mission called Resolute Support was hoisted.
U.S. Gen. John Campbell, commander of ISAF, commemorated the 3,500 international soldiers killed on Afghan battlefields and praised the country's army for giving him confidence that they are able to take on the fight alone.
Resolute Support will serve as the bedrock of an enduring partnership" between NATO and Afghanistan, Campbell told an audience of Afghan and international military officers and officials, as well as diplomats and journalists.
"The road before us remains challenging, but we will triumph," he added.
Beginning Jan. 1, the new mission will provide training and support for Afghanistan's military, with the U.S. accounting for almost 11,000 of the 13,500 members of the residual force.
Source
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See what happens when you point your real gun at people, then shoot at them, then defy police orders, then lead them on high speed chase, all before finally pointing your gun at the police themselves? We all know how this ends right?
You get taken into custody without injury.....
Woman Dressed In Body Armor Arrested After Multiple Shootings In Chattanooga
Around 3:52 p.m. on December 26, 2014, Chattanooga Police Department responded to shots fired on Cloverdale Drive.
Officials say that two victims were stopped at a stop sign when a woman, now identified as Julia A. Shields, pulled up next to them in a dark colored sedan and fired a single round into their vehicle.
Shields struck the radiator and disabled it.
After that incident, police began to receive several calls about Ms. Shields pointing her weapon at people as she drove by.
Officers located Ms. Shields in the parking lot of Stuart Heights Baptist Church.
As soon as Shields saw the cops, she fled the scene and sent police into a pursuit.
Shields led the officers down Highway 153 and Hixson Pike where she continued to point her gun at other drivers as she drove by them.
The pursuit ended at the intersection of Cloverdale Drive and Koblan Drive. Shields pointed her weapon at officers when they finally got her stop.
Ms. Shield was taken into custody without incident or injury and found to be wearing body armor during the incident.
Forgot source: Source
What could of been different about how the police perceived the threats to their lives than the 12 yo they had to shoot or the guy in Walmart with their toy guns...?
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Might be different police, different genders, different class, different age and an increased scrutiny of police practices nationwide?
But hey, the only thing that ever matters is race.
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Indeed, I dislike the push to make everything about race; it feels, well, racist; as it's only sometimes race, but often a lot of other factors.
Also, the police would've been justified shooting her in that situation, they just choose not to.
We could probably have 100 less people killed by police shooting in a year, the cost would be something like 30-ish or so extra officers being killed (numbers a guess by me).
And pointing out it's a real gun feels off to me; as you're referring to that case where the gun was a toy, but was unlawfully modified to not be recognizeable as such, so it was a real gun as far as the officer's could tell.
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On December 29 2014 05:51 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 04:11 Sub40APM wrote:On December 28 2014 18:10 Simberto wrote:
I am pretty sure that you could find more american flags in some peoples gardens than total german flags in some small towns here in germany. On December 29 2014 03:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
And what are those flying at those far right anti-Islamic protests in Berlin etc?
What a weird comparison. Everyone knows why Germans have to hide their nationalism. Its literally drilled into you in schools. Why not compare outbursts of far right nationalism in soccer stadiums to Americans at their football games? A disinterested observer would be terrified of Europeans and think Americans are the nicest. Until he checks global poltiics of the last 50 years... Or the republican primaries...
Picking up this discussion from the Iraq/Syria thread:
Yes, there is certainly extremism in the primary season. But remember that the US is a massive federalized country with a two party system. The European equivalent to the tea party is the standard far right party each country has, not things said by their centre-right party. The European equivalent of Alabama or Missouri (and by extension, things that would be said there) is Greece or Romania. The UKIP or FN are scary as balls, much scarier than US tea party, but the actual point of comparison is not them: it's Golden Dawn and Noua Dreapta. Germans don't get to be high-and-mighty about being more liberal than South Carolina any more than Massachusetts gets to self-righteous about the intolerance of Bulgaria. The only reason this nonsense gets bandied about is that the "blue states" of Europe tend to forget the rest of Europe exists.
Yes, your point that we have thrown our weight around in the last 50 years more than Europe is true. But it's an interesting cut-off you've chosen there: the previous half-millennium was Europe doing its nationalist best to rule the world. I get that this has soured Germans to the notion, and people in the smaller rich countries (Scandanavia, Switzerland, Benelux) have been pro-peace since forever for obvious reasons. But the story doesn't end there any more than I get to call the gay rights struggle in the Church over because my Presbyterian Church (USA) is down with gay pastors/marriage. You have to look at the whole picture.
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Another difference is that the tea party is actually a grassroots movement within an established party, and thus has a certain amount of influence. European extremism exists to the same degree, but they have less influence on mainstream politics as long as the bigger parties don't try to gobble up their voters. (which doesn't seem to work)
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I love how I can not even mention race yet that's what people saw.
'racist'... That word has completely lost it's meaning, or at least means very different things to different people.
Also your numbers (qualified as a guess) are ridiculous. Clearly biased by the propaganda about the dangers officers face.
Line of Duty Deaths: 105
9/11 related illness: 1
Aircraft accident: 1
Automobile accident: 25
Boating accident: 1
Bomb: 1
Drowned: 2
Duty related illness: 1
Electrocuted: 1
Fall: 4
Fire: 1
Gunfire: 30
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 10
Motorcycle accident: 4
Stabbed: 2
Struck by vehicle: 8
Training accident: 2
Vehicle pursuit: 4
Vehicular assault: 5
Source
Applying these percentages to the total count at Killed By Police would imply that officers acting in the line of duty have killed in the neighborhood of 1,250 to 1,350 people since May 1, 2013. That’s about 1,000 deaths per year.
This estimate isn’t directly comparable to the FBI’s “400 police homicides” count, because that figure is only available through 2012, and the previously mentioned caveats about media-report-driven counts apply.
Nevertheless, it’s a good indication that “400 police homicides” isn’t a useful baseline number for the number of people killed by police each year.
Source
Just shooting less people that are armed with knives/screwdrivers/etc.. would drop the police homicides down while only adding minimal risk to the officers. I mean more of them die on the way to deal with incidents than they do from getting stabbed. Unless you really want to suggest that trying harder not to shoot people with sharp objects would result in 15x more cops getting stabbed to death.
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On December 29 2014 06:27 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 05:51 Velr wrote:On December 29 2014 04:11 Sub40APM wrote:On December 28 2014 18:10 Simberto wrote:
I am pretty sure that you could find more american flags in some peoples gardens than total german flags in some small towns here in germany. On December 29 2014 03:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
And what are those flying at those far right anti-Islamic protests in Berlin etc?
What a weird comparison. Everyone knows why Germans have to hide their nationalism. Its literally drilled into you in schools. Why not compare outbursts of far right nationalism in soccer stadiums to Americans at their football games? A disinterested observer would be terrified of Europeans and think Americans are the nicest. Until he checks global poltiics of the last 50 years... Or the republican primaries... Picking up this discussion from the Iraq/Syria thread: Yes, there is certainly extremism in the primary season. But remember that the US is a massive federalized country with a two party system. The European equivalent to the tea party is the standard far right party each country has, not things said by their centre-right party. The European equivalent of Alabama or Missouri (and by extension, things that would be said there) is Greece or Romania. The UKIP or FN are scary as balls, much scarier than US tea party, but the actual point of comparison is not them: it's Golden Dawn and Noua Dreapta. Germans don't get to be high-and-mighty about being more liberal than South Carolina any more than Massachusetts gets to self-righteous about the intolerance of Bulgaria. The only reason this nonsense gets bandied about is that the "blue states" of Europe tend to forget the rest of Europe exists. Yes, your point that we have thrown our weight around in the last 50 years more than Europe is true. But it's an interesting cut-off you've chosen there: the previous half-millennium was Europe doing its nationalist best to rule the world. I get that this has soured Germans to the notion, and people in the smaller rich countries (Scandanavia, Switzerland, Benelux) have been pro-peace since forever for obvious reasons. But the story doesn't end there any more than I get to call the gay rights struggle in the Church over because my Presbyterian Church (USA) is down with gay pastors/marriage. You have to look at the whole picture.
I also cant leave that quote dangling like that either. To the Swiss guy: what is a disinterested observer going to make of nationalism in Switzerland when he sees a political party running ads where all the white swiss sheep wanted to kick out the black immigrant sheep and learns that the same party wants to ban the construction of minarets? European's tropes that Americans are more nationalistic because they have more flags per capita on their lawns can only be understood rationally as someone not thinking that hard about their anti-Americanisms.
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On December 29 2014 06:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Another difference is that the tea party is actually a grassroots movement within an established party, and thus has a certain amount of influence. European extremism exists to the same degree, but they have less influence on mainstream politics as long as the bigger parties don't try to gobble up their voters. (which doesn't seem to work)
FPO was in government coalition for 5 years in Austria. Vlaams Blok, before being banned for being an actually racist party counted 1/4th of the Flemish electorate in Belgium. FN today would beat the Socialists in France, supposedly. Lega Nord had several ministers in various Belrusconi governments. The 'Sweden Democrats' won 14% of the seats in the Swedish parliament this year. In the UK, UKIP has made anti-immigration a mainstream view that the Conservatives are desperate to get ahead of least they split their party.
The idea that radical populist right wingism is some kind of American specialty is just wrong.
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I didn't say that, but in a multi party system it is easier to reduce the influence of fringe parties by keeping them out of coalitions. the FN scored well at the EU election, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get a majority in a national vote, and the Tories were not successful in their attempt to steal Ukip voters . If anything their shift to the right has cost them more votes than it has gained them.
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On December 29 2014 05:58 zlefin wrote:
Indeed, I dislike the push to make everything about race; it feels, well, racist; as it's only sometimes race, but often a lot of other factors.
Also, the police would've been justified shooting her in that situation, they just choose not to.
We could probably have 100 less people killed by police shooting in a year, the cost would be something like 30-ish or so extra officers being killed (numbers a guess by me).
And pointing out it's a real gun feels off to me; as you're referring to that case where the gun was a toy, but was unlawfully modified to not be recognizeable as such, so it was a real gun as far as the officer's could tell.
That case? There were two individuals in Ohio that were shot by police for carrying pellet guns recently: John Crawford and Tamir Rice. Crawford was still in the store where he intended to purchase the item, so he had no chance to modify it in any way, and there is no law in the state that prohibits toys from looking like actual weapons.
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FRESNO, Calif. – Farmers already scrambling to find workers in California — the nation's leading grower of fruits, vegetables and nuts — fear an even greater labor shortage under President Barack Obama's executive action to block some 5 million people from deportation.
Thousands of the state's farmworkers, who make up a significant portion of those who will benefit, may choose to leave the uncertainty of their seasonal jobs for steady, year-around work building homes, cooking in restaurants and cleaning hotel rooms.
Manuel Cunha, president of the Fresno-based Nisei Farmers League, estimates that 85 percent of California's agricultural workers are using false documents to obtain work.
Cunha, who has advised the Obama administration on immigration policy, figures that 50,000 of the state's farmworkers who may benefit from the president's executive action could leave the fields and packing houses in California's $46.4 billion agricultural industry.
"How do I replace that?" he said. "I think we're going to have a problem."
Source
"But what will I do without my workers criminality to hold over their head and trap them in the job I want them to do?!"
Just wow...
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Am I understanding this right? They fear labour shortage because the president blocked deportation and the workers have now picked up permanent jobs?
wat
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fucking immingrants, wont take away our jobs
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On December 29 2014 10:16 Nyxisto wrote:
Am I understanding this right? They fear labour shortage because the president blocked deportation and the workers have now picked up permanent jobs?
wat
Currently they are working illegally. The pardon will give them legality which gives them the option to move away and get a better job instead of being at the mercy of their slavemaster benevolent employer.
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On December 29 2014 09:13 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 05:58 zlefin wrote:
Indeed, I dislike the push to make everything about race; it feels, well, racist; as it's only sometimes race, but often a lot of other factors.
Also, the police would've been justified shooting her in that situation, they just choose not to.
We could probably have 100 less people killed by police shooting in a year, the cost would be something like 30-ish or so extra officers being killed (numbers a guess by me).
And pointing out it's a real gun feels off to me; as you're referring to that case where the gun was a toy, but was unlawfully modified to not be recognizeable as such, so it was a real gun as far as the officer's could tell. That case? There were two individuals in Ohio that were shot by police for carrying pellet guns recently: John Crawford and Tamir Rice. Crawford was still in the store where he intended to purchase the item, so he had no chance to modify it in any way, and there is no law in the state that prohibits toys from looking like actual weapons.
well, if there's no law prohibiting toys from looking like real weapons then the legislature there is utterly incompetent for not having done that already. They should fix that post-haste.
edited for clarity, replacing "stuff" with "toys"
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arent you an open carry advocate? what?
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EPT
