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On August 15 2014 11:47 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:34 Nyxisto wrote:On August 15 2014 11:16 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2014 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism. What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Normally that word applies to things like Jim Crow, literacy tests, etc. None of those things exist any longer. Well it certainly seems like minorities in the US receive harder punishments, are way more often affected by discriminatory practices by the police, and it seems like most of the people that die through unnecessary police force are part of ethnic minorities. Sure the Jim Crow laws don't exist anymore, but the reality still seems to be that people who are not white still have a higher than average chance to get screwed over by the authorities. Ok, so you just meant the stuff that's being discussed already. I do subscribe more the to the "people in poverty are more likely to commit crime" than I am to the idea of racism-motivated incidents. But that's already been discussed here. To me it seems that, because race is such a large part of the national discussion in this country, events that effect minorities in this way are often grabbed onto by those who need to feed the media their next helping of controversy coverage. We see this from discussion on Israel/Gaza vs other middle east conflicts to gang violence in major metropolitan areas (LA, Chicago too). Attention mainly follows when there is a nice narrative that can be super-imposed over an event. In THIS case (Ferguson), we'll have to wait and see. It's detestable to me that people are already jumping to conclusions.
This case. Ferguson. I assure you its about race. Real, not imagined, racial tensions. That might not be the reason that police officer shot Michael Brown, but the events that have unfolded since are about long lingering racial tensions surrounding the police in that community. Why do people on the right dispute this?
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On August 15 2014 13:00 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:48 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so. So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities. who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again? Work on your logic. Possibility is not reality. And who cares who shops there? Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds is an act of violence against the community.
I think his point was that if you fuck up your own local economy it hurts you too. Your counter point that locals may possibly not own the businesses doesn't refute that.
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On August 15 2014 12:55 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism. It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices. Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests.
So your solution to crime is to not prevent it but to allow it to happen?
Rabble rouseing about problems doesn't solve them It just makes them worse. No one thinks that its a good situation.
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So when the target of peoples anger goes away their anger goes away? Who knew.
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On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values.
For clarification, the data you posted shows that that blacks are stopped more often than whites, but that doesn't mean that racial profiling is happening. It could mean that blacks tend to live in higher crime areas or it could have other explanations.
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On August 15 2014 12:59 Roswell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values. Well you were the one randomly throwing in fucking driving arrests, when I was solely talking about homicides. I still think, no one should give a rats ass about this event. Its like hyping up a mediocre movie, you are only feeding the fire. By the time this event/trial ends, we will have 300 black on black homicides. But the narrative here would make a much better movie than those other deaths.
Ok. I'm confused. What exactly is your point? I already explained why those traffic stops are relevant to this discussion.
Best I can tell your position is: Because black people kill each other all the time nobody should care about this one time a white guy killed a black guy.
My point was that people care about this incident because its representative of a larger issue about the how the police treat black people in Ferguson specifically, and Missouri more broadly. That traffic stop data is evidence of that police behavior. What don't you get?
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On August 15 2014 13:17 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:55 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism. It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices. Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests. So your solution to crime is to not prevent it but to allow it to happen? Rabble rouseing about problems doesn't solve them It just makes them worse. No one thinks that its a good situation.
No. My solution to crime is to tackle the root causes. Poverty, education, etc...
Also advocating police reform is not the same as saying "let's allow crime to happen"
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On August 15 2014 13:10 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:00 IgnE wrote:On August 15 2014 12:48 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so. So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities. who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again? Work on your logic. Possibility is not reality. And who cares who shops there? Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds is an act of violence against the community. Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds to restore the rule of law isn't violence against the community its the whole purpose of having constables to patrol for you. Are you advocating them to just allow anarchy to envelope the community and to just stand back while the whole city burns to the ground while they dwadle their thumbs? Please tell me what you would have the local government do in this situation.
It is violence against the community. Those cops are there to protect the property of whites who don't live in the community. I would want the local government to arrest the cop who shot mike brown, apologize, vow justice, and open a dialogue to discuss the community's concerns with a delegation of it's democratically-appointed leaders.
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On August 15 2014 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values. For clarification, the data you posted shows that that blacks are stopped more often than whites, but that doesn't mean that racial profiling is happening. It could mean that blacks tend to live in higher crime areas or it could have other explanations.
The stated purpose of collecting this data is so the state could have data on racial profiling. It was a law passed in response to allegations of racial profiling. The reason you use traffic stops to do this type of analysis is because traffic violations shouldn't correlate to race. That's the broad theory. Anyways as I've stated before, the numbers are useful because it gives you somewhere to point when people make the counter-claim that racial profiling isn't happening. Still, the numbers aren't necessary to prove that there are very real racial tensions between the mostly white police force and the mostly black communities they are supposed to serve. That's obvious to those who live there.
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On August 15 2014 13:29 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:10 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 13:00 IgnE wrote:On August 15 2014 12:48 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so. So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities. who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again? Work on your logic. Possibility is not reality. And who cares who shops there? Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds is an act of violence against the community. Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds to restore the rule of law isn't violence against the community its the whole purpose of having constables to patrol for you. Are you advocating them to just allow anarchy to envelope the community and to just stand back while the whole city burns to the ground while they dwadle their thumbs? Please tell me what you would have the local government do in this situation. It is violence against the community. Those cops are there to protect the property of whites who don't live in the community. I would want the local government to arrest the cop who shot mike brown, apologize, vow justice, and open a dialogue to discuss the community's concerns with a delegation of it's democratically-appointed leaders.
. Its physically impossible for them to protect only the property of white people who don't live in the community. You're assuming that the cop did anything wrong which you have no proof for. The democratically appointed leaders were elected by the community, thats the literal definition of being democratically elected. If the black portion of the city doesn't feel the need to vote then they shouldn't complain when the government doesn't represent them.
Did anyone at all learn anything from the trayvon martin event that happened not that long ago?
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On August 15 2014 13:29 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:17 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:55 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism. It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices. Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests. So your solution to crime is to not prevent it but to allow it to happen? Rabble rouseing about problems doesn't solve them It just makes them worse. No one thinks that its a good situation. No. My solution to crime is to tackle the root causes. Poverty, education, etc... Also advocating police reform is not the same as saying "let's allow crime to happen"
You aren't advocating for police reform. You're raging against the system without a thought in the world to what you would reform it to. Statistical policing is as amoral as you can get. Do you want the police to start to use race as a factor to where they send patrols or do you just think thats what they do now?
The problems with poverty and education are caused by the high rate of crime. Dealing with crime solves poverty and poor education the same as dealing with poverty and poor education would solve crime. They couldn't be any less independent and blindly ignoring that fact is what caused the current mess to begin with.
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On August 15 2014 13:10 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:47 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2014 11:34 Nyxisto wrote:On August 15 2014 11:16 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2014 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism. What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Normally that word applies to things like Jim Crow, literacy tests, etc. None of those things exist any longer. Well it certainly seems like minorities in the US receive harder punishments, are way more often affected by discriminatory practices by the police, and it seems like most of the people that die through unnecessary police force are part of ethnic minorities. Sure the Jim Crow laws don't exist anymore, but the reality still seems to be that people who are not white still have a higher than average chance to get screwed over by the authorities. Ok, so you just meant the stuff that's being discussed already. I do subscribe more the to the "people in poverty are more likely to commit crime" than I am to the idea of racism-motivated incidents. But that's already been discussed here. To me it seems that, because race is such a large part of the national discussion in this country, events that effect minorities in this way are often grabbed onto by those who need to feed the media their next helping of controversy coverage. We see this from discussion on Israel/Gaza vs other middle east conflicts to gang violence in major metropolitan areas (LA, Chicago too). Attention mainly follows when there is a nice narrative that can be super-imposed over an event. In THIS case (Ferguson), we'll have to wait and see. It's detestable to me that people are already jumping to conclusions. This case. Ferguson. I assure you its about race. Real, not imagined, racial tensions. That might not be the reason that police officer shot Michael Brown, but the events that have unfolded since are about long lingering racial tensions surrounding the police in that community. Why do people on the right dispute this?
Is anyone disputing that race is now a factor? Don't be silly. In the first paragraph I was making a comment about the media and race coverage general, talking about how certain people take individual events and blow them up into larger confrontations or commentaries on the country.
So in this case, we have don't yet know why the officer did what he did (or what exactly he even did), yet we have everyone jumping on the race bandwagon- transforming it from a local, potentially wrong shooting to a race-based shooting. The community immediately felt that way, and it fits into a good media mold, so they come along stoking the flames. I'm criticizing the way this is being handled, from the rioters and media (and also the police).
How sad would it be if this was an innocent mistake, or the cop was exonerated, then we've gone through all this for nothing?
So yes, it's definitely racial at this point, but it didn't have to be a national incident.
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On August 15 2014 13:41 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values. For clarification, the data you posted shows that that blacks are stopped more often than whites, but that doesn't mean that racial profiling is happening. It could mean that blacks tend to live in higher crime areas or it could have other explanations. The stated purpose of collecting this data is so the state could have data on racial profiling. It was a law passed in response to allegations of racial profiling. The reason you use traffic stops to do this type of analysis is because traffic violations shouldn't correlate to race. That's the broad theory. Anyways as I've stated before, the numbers are useful because it gives you somewhere to point when people make the counter-claim that racial profiling isn't happening. Still, the numbers aren't necessary to prove that there are very real racial tensions between the mostly white police force and the mostly black communities they are supposed to serve. That's obvious to those who live there.
The data is there to assist with finding and stopping racial profiling, but by itself it doesn't show racial profiling:
While statistical disproportion does not prove that law enforcement officers are making vehicle stops based on the perceived race or ethnicity of the driver, the compilation and analysis of data provides both law enforcement and the community with a starting point for dialogue to appreciate each other’s perspective and arrive at common ground.
Not saying it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does on occasion, just trying to clarify what it shows.
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On August 15 2014 13:48 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:29 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 13:17 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:55 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism. It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices. Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests. So your solution to crime is to not prevent it but to allow it to happen? Rabble rouseing about problems doesn't solve them It just makes them worse. No one thinks that its a good situation. No. My solution to crime is to tackle the root causes. Poverty, education, etc... Also advocating police reform is not the same as saying "let's allow crime to happen" The problems with poverty and education are caused by the high rate of crime. Dealing with crime solves poverty and poor education the same as dealing with poverty and poor education would solve crime. They couldn't be any less independent and blindly ignoring that fact is what caused the current mess to begin with.
The problems are all intertwined. A child born into a shit neighborhood is surrounded by poverty. Odds are at least one of his parents are not around. The adult he is with is probably working a dead end minimum wage job, maybe multiple jobs to make ends meet. If that adult is never around working to scrape by a living they're not around to raise that kid properly. The kid is accountable to no one, supervised by no one, with nothing to do. Odds are he's going to the worst school in the area so his education sucks dick, when he gets home there's no one to help with homework, no one to talk to, hang out with, play with, or discipline him. Even if the adult in his life is a great person and trying their absolute hardest they're still stuck in a shit situation.
So the kid's got no one, odds are he'll turn outside the home for friends, companionship, entertainment. All those kids with no supervision are going to make some awful choices, that's how even the best of kids work. But they're surrounded by poverty, education isn't instilled in them, crime is everywhere, those choices are going to be even worse. The kid sees hopelessness and squalor everywhere around him, sees adults working to get no where, maybe minimum wage if you can get it. Crime doesn't seem so bad now, he can make more money, he can work for himself or his friends, he doesn't need to be highly educated academically, maybe he can help lift his family up doing it! Odds are he ends up in jail sooner or later if not dead. Maybe somewhere along the line he ended up having a kid of his own who like countless others, and like himself, now doesn't have a dad, and so the cycle continues.
There's no miracle cure that fixes it all over night. Things have to change fundamentally, thought processes have to be rewired on all sides of the equation to tackle it properly. But, the journey of 1000 miles starts with but a single step. If you ask me starting with education is the first step to take. Get the children, teach them, show them the possibilities, make education important and cool. The young people can effect more change than the adults. It won't work for them all, but nothing ever works for 100% of the population.
If you were born in the shittiest ghetto in the asshole of the country you should have the same shot at a good education as anyone else. Try and stop the hopelessness before it takes root.
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On August 15 2014 13:48 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:29 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 13:17 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:55 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism. It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices. Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests. So your solution to crime is to not prevent it but to allow it to happen? Rabble rouseing about problems doesn't solve them It just makes them worse. No one thinks that its a good situation. No. My solution to crime is to tackle the root causes. Poverty, education, etc... Also advocating police reform is not the same as saying "let's allow crime to happen" You aren't advocating for police reform. You're raging against the system without a thought in the world to what you would reform it to. Statistical policing is as amoral as you can get. Do you want the police to start to use race as a factor to where they send patrols or do you just think thats what they do now? The problems with poverty and education are caused by the high rate of crime. Dealing with crime solves poverty and poor education the same as dealing with poverty and poor education would solve crime. They couldn't be any less independent and blindly ignoring that fact is what caused the current mess to begin with.
Well actually, I'm merely identifying something I see as a problem in the system. This story has garnered some national attention thanks but at its heart its a very local issue. Albeit one that resonates in many communities. I don't know enough the community to advocate anything too specific. Nor am I an expert in criminal justice. That said, there are some pretty obvious places to start. A change of leadership. Hiring more black officers. Stronger protections for whistle-blowers. Other police departments have been reformed. Hiring a reformer as police chief is the route most cities take.
You might be old enough to remember LA during the 90's. A police force notorious for its corruption, racism, brutality and its general ineffectiveness. They wrote rap songs about it. Rodney King. Riots. That changed. LA today is a very different place with much less violent crime.
I'm pretty sure I've never advocated statistical policing. That would be dumb. Don't make me your strawman.
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On August 15 2014 13:43 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:29 IgnE wrote:On August 15 2014 13:10 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 13:00 IgnE wrote:On August 15 2014 12:48 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so. So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities. who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again? Work on your logic. Possibility is not reality. And who cares who shops there? Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds is an act of violence against the community. Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds to restore the rule of law isn't violence against the community its the whole purpose of having constables to patrol for you. Are you advocating them to just allow anarchy to envelope the community and to just stand back while the whole city burns to the ground while they dwadle their thumbs? Please tell me what you would have the local government do in this situation. It is violence against the community. Those cops are there to protect the property of whites who don't live in the community. I would want the local government to arrest the cop who shot mike brown, apologize, vow justice, and open a dialogue to discuss the community's concerns with a delegation of it's democratically-appointed leaders. . Its physically impossible for them to protect only the property of white people who don't live in the community. You're assuming that the cop did anything wrong which you have no proof for. The democratically appointed leaders were elected by the community, thats the literal definition of being democratically elected. If the black portion of the city doesn't feel the need to vote then they shouldn't complain when the government doesn't represent them. Did anyone at all learn anything from the trayvon martin event that happened not that long ago?
wtf dude your reading comprehension seems very poor. i didnt say they were protecting only white property, that would be a stupid thing to say. there is some evidence based on eyewitness accounts that he unlawfully murdered a young black man. you don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to arrest someone. black prople know this very well. proof is for trials. if you want to relieve tensions with a community then open a dialogue with them. stop being so willfully stupid. this has nothing to do with locally elected officials. the only question here is whether you learned anything from trayvon or eric gardner or any one else. apparently not
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On August 15 2014 13:51 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:10 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:47 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2014 11:34 Nyxisto wrote:On August 15 2014 11:16 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2014 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism. What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Normally that word applies to things like Jim Crow, literacy tests, etc. None of those things exist any longer. Well it certainly seems like minorities in the US receive harder punishments, are way more often affected by discriminatory practices by the police, and it seems like most of the people that die through unnecessary police force are part of ethnic minorities. Sure the Jim Crow laws don't exist anymore, but the reality still seems to be that people who are not white still have a higher than average chance to get screwed over by the authorities. Ok, so you just meant the stuff that's being discussed already. I do subscribe more the to the "people in poverty are more likely to commit crime" than I am to the idea of racism-motivated incidents. But that's already been discussed here. To me it seems that, because race is such a large part of the national discussion in this country, events that effect minorities in this way are often grabbed onto by those who need to feed the media their next helping of controversy coverage. We see this from discussion on Israel/Gaza vs other middle east conflicts to gang violence in major metropolitan areas (LA, Chicago too). Attention mainly follows when there is a nice narrative that can be super-imposed over an event. In THIS case (Ferguson), we'll have to wait and see. It's detestable to me that people are already jumping to conclusions. This case. Ferguson. I assure you its about race. Real, not imagined, racial tensions. That might not be the reason that police officer shot Michael Brown, but the events that have unfolded since are about long lingering racial tensions surrounding the police in that community. Why do people on the right dispute this? Is anyone disputing that race is now a factor? Don't be silly. In the first paragraph I was making a comment about the media and race coverage general, talking about how certain people take individual events and blow them up into larger confrontations or commentaries on the country. So in this case, we have don't yet know why the officer did what he did (or what exactly he even did), yet we have everyone jumping on the race bandwagon- transforming it from a local, potentially wrong shooting to a race-based shooting. The community immediately felt that way, and it fits into a good media mold, so they come along stoking the flames. I'm criticizing the way this is being handled, from the rioters and media (and also the police). How sad would it be if this was an innocent mistake, or the cop was exonerated, then we've gone through all this for nothing? So yes, it's definitely racial at this point, but it didn't have to be a national incident.
Right. My point was that those racial tensions existed before the shooting. Race was a factor before the shooting and obviously its a factor now. The only point in time where it may not have been a factor was the shooting itself. So even if this was an innocent mistake if it leads to reform, then we haven't really gone through this for nothing, have we?
To say its being mishandled I think misses the point (although I suppose I don't disagree). It all seemed inevitable to me. Like it couldn't have played out any other way. A community that feels like its being mistreated is lashing out against a police force that feels threatened, and a media sensing something sensational comes along for the ride. I'm more concerned with the systemic root of the problem, which I see as an over policing of the black community in Ferguson.
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On August 15 2014 14:12 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:48 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 13:29 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 13:17 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:55 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism. It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices. Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests. So your solution to crime is to not prevent it but to allow it to happen? Rabble rouseing about problems doesn't solve them It just makes them worse. No one thinks that its a good situation. No. My solution to crime is to tackle the root causes. Poverty, education, etc... Also advocating police reform is not the same as saying "let's allow crime to happen" The problems with poverty and education are caused by the high rate of crime. Dealing with crime solves poverty and poor education the same as dealing with poverty and poor education would solve crime. They couldn't be any less independent and blindly ignoring that fact is what caused the current mess to begin with. The problems are all intertwined. A child born into a shit neighborhood is surrounded by poverty. Odds are at least one of his parents are not around. The adult he is with is probably working a dead end minimum wage job, maybe multiple jobs to make ends meet. If that adult is never around working to scrape by a living they're not around to raise that kid properly. The kid is accountable to no one, supervised by no one, with nothing to do. Odds are he's going to the worst school in the area so his education sucks dick, when he gets home there's no one to help with homework, no one to talk to, hang out with, play with, or discipline him. Even if the adult in his life is a great person and trying their absolute hardest they're still stuck in a shit situation. So the kid's got no one, odds are he'll turn outside the home for friends, companionship, entertainment. All those kids with no supervision are going to make some awful choices, that's how even the best of kids work. But they're surrounded by poverty, education isn't instilled in them, crime is everywhere, those choices are going to be even worse. The kid sees hopelessness and squalor everywhere around him, sees adults working to get no where, maybe minimum wage if you can get it. Crime doesn't seem so bad now, he can make more money, he can work for himself or his friends, he doesn't need to be highly educated academically, maybe he can help lift his family up doing it! Odds are he ends up in jail sooner or later if not dead. Maybe somewhere along the line he ended up having a kid of his own who like countless others, and like himself, now doesn't have a dad, and so the cycle continues. There's no miracle cure that fixes it all over night. Things have to change fundamentally, thought processes have to be rewired on all sides of the equation to tackle it properly. But, the journey of 1000 miles starts with but a single step. If you ask me starting with education is the first step to take. Get the children, teach them, show them the possibilities, make education important and cool. The young people can effect more change than the adults. It won't work for them all, but nothing ever works for 100% of the population. If you were born in the shittiest ghetto in the asshole of the country you should have the same shot at a good education as anyone else. Try and stop the hopelessness before it takes root.
You are correct on the complexity of the issue and Sermokala's one way causal link and solution based on it are extremely suspect and unlikely. But your proposed solution - education - is a nice slogan, but making it work is much harder and as far as I can tell nobody actually succeeded at this. There are some marginally successful programs at making education more "cool", but they seem far from reliable. I think much better is to improve policing and governance of the area, but not in a way Sermokala is promoting. It needs to be targeted not at increasing actual crime fighting (although that never hurts), but on fairness and reliability of the police and law. The people in the area need to be shown that the police and government and law is fair and that they will profit by relegating their issues to the system. This is a long term plan and will not have results immediately, but that is the only way I know of to "civilize" such crime ridden areas. Simple "tough on crime" approaches that parts of US are so in love with will fail as they are ideological and dogmatic, not actually result-oriented. It does not actually matter if police are fair and law is too if the population of the area does not perceive them as such, as in such case you cannot expect any improvement. Not mentioning that fairness of the local police force is more than in doubt.
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On August 15 2014 13:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 13:41 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 13:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values. For clarification, the data you posted shows that that blacks are stopped more often than whites, but that doesn't mean that racial profiling is happening. It could mean that blacks tend to live in higher crime areas or it could have other explanations. The stated purpose of collecting this data is so the state could have data on racial profiling. It was a law passed in response to allegations of racial profiling. The reason you use traffic stops to do this type of analysis is because traffic violations shouldn't correlate to race. That's the broad theory. Anyways as I've stated before, the numbers are useful because it gives you somewhere to point when people make the counter-claim that racial profiling isn't happening. Still, the numbers aren't necessary to prove that there are very real racial tensions between the mostly white police force and the mostly black communities they are supposed to serve. That's obvious to those who live there. The data is there to assist with finding and stopping racial profiling, but by itself it doesn't show racial profiling:
Sure, it's evidence of racial profiling, not proof. I don't disagree. I would argue its pretty strong evidence, but you're free to interpret it how you please.
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EPT
