|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/
Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though.
This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton."
|
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism.
|
On August 15 2014 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism.
What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Normally that word applies to things like Jim Crow, literacy tests, etc. None of those things exist any longer.
I suspect you mean that racism still exists in certain areas- which is true, I'm sure. But it's not a lawful discrimination. It seems to me that the economic aspect is the best explanation for what we see. Though I still think much of what is stirred up has more to do with agitators whose lives depend on this type of controversy (Like Al Sharpton).
|
On August 15 2014 11:16 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism. What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Normally that word applies to things like Jim Crow, literacy tests, etc. None of those things exist any longer.
Well it certainly seems like minorities in the US receive harder punishments, are way more often affected by discriminatory practices by the police, and it seems like most of the people that die through unnecessary police force are part of ethnic minorities. Sure the Jim Crow laws don't exist anymore, but the reality still seems to be that people who are not white still have a higher than average chance to get screwed over by the authorities.
|
On August 15 2014 11:34 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:16 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2014 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
If a crime is racially motivated or if it goes as far as racism still being an institutionalized problem (which could probably be said about quite a few cities/states in the US?) then that's indeed a very big concern. Motive in crime is relevant and influences punishment. That's not a new idea and it isn't limited to the issue of racism. What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Normally that word applies to things like Jim Crow, literacy tests, etc. None of those things exist any longer. Well it certainly seems like minorities in the US receive harder punishments, are way more often affected by discriminatory practices by the police, and it seems like most of the people that die through unnecessary police force are part of ethnic minorities. Sure the Jim Crow laws don't exist anymore, but the reality still seems to be that people who are not white still have a higher than average chance to get screwed over by the authorities.
Ok, so you just meant the stuff that's being discussed already. I do subscribe more the to the "people in poverty are more likely to commit crime" than I am to the idea of racism-motivated incidents. But that's already been discussed here.
To me it seems that, because race is such a large part of the national discussion in this country, events that effect minorities in this way are often grabbed onto by those who need to feed the media their next helping of controversy coverage. We see this from discussion on Israel/Gaza vs other middle east conflicts to gang violence in major metropolitan areas (LA, Chicago too). Attention mainly follows when there is a nice narrative that can be super-imposed over an event.
In THIS case (Ferguson), we'll have to wait and see. It's detestable to me that people are already jumping to conclusions.
|
On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton."
Black people also tend to get put in prison for stuff white people get warnings for.
Wonder if our levy based school system and debilitative prison system have anything to do with an increased homicide rate for black people?
Maybe funneling all the black kids out of their shitty schools and into our shittier prisons isn't the best way to foster ideas of racial equality
|
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism.
|
On August 15 2014 11:48 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Black people also tend to get put in prison for stuff white people get warnings for. Wonder if our levy based school system and debilitative prison system have anything to do with an increased homicide rate for black people? Maybe funneling all the black kids out of their shitty schools and into our shittier prisons isn't the best way to foster ideas of racial equality
Education plays a huge role as well. But looting and burning down your neighbors or a strangers small business and bringing all fucking hell upon a small town is literally not solving anything and quite bluntly, is only making things worse. If all that energy was spent into helping our public school system and constructing better ifastructure for our poor communities, think of all the progress we could achieve. Nah, fuck it lets fight violence with violence because this death which has had next to no facts come out deserves a media circle jerk.
|
Lets not forget everytime a candelight vigil turns into a riot and looting spree the police have to come out to the next one in riot gear. so they get to look like the bad guys for trying to prevent more damage to local small business's that have nothing to do with why the community is angry.
Then those business's that can't recover just end up contributing to local squalor and lower people property values, continuing the cycle that the community is in.
|
Except one crowd getting violent is not license to treat the next crowd similarly. That's how institutionalized discrimination starts.
|
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so.
|
On August 15 2014 08:21 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 07:27 Wolfstan wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but are there still "black communities" and "white communities" in the states? I thought that segregation ended, or are communities just based on wealth? Anyone have a statistic saying if you're black you have and 90% chance to have black neighbors or something? Here's a cool map that (http://www.wired.com/2013/08/how-segregated-is-your-city-this-eye-opening-map-shows-you/) that shows the degree of segregation in the US.
Thank you! That is a really fantastic map.
|
On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton."
Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about.
Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values.
|
On August 15 2014 12:10 farvacola wrote:
Except one crowd getting violent is not license to treat the next crowd similarly. That's how institutionalized discrimination starts.
Yes it is. Its the definition of license to treat the next crowd similarly. Then when they get violent again and start throwing rocks and molotovs at you you're proven that you made the right choice to roll out the riot gear and tear gas.
These arn't peaceful protests anywhere. just beacuse there are riot police doesn't give the crowd licence to get violent.
|
On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so.
So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities.
who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again?
|
On August 15 2014 11:52 Sermokala wrote:
The problem is that the raceism goes both ways. Black communities are notorious for being hugely racist twords police departments. They treat black police officers worse then white ones calling them race traitors as if any one trying to solve the problem is a problem.
Institutions can be changed completely and they have repeatedly but when the community refuses to admit their own faults the cycle will just continue. People thinking that some people are racist or arn't racist based on the color of their skin is just another form of racism.
It's an antagonistic relationship and yes that antagonism goes both ways. The difference is that police is a public institution that I believe should be held accountable for its practices.
Anyways I don't see the over policing of black communities as the solution to the crime problems that plague these black communities. I see that over policing as a problem. I'm obviously not alone. Hence protests.
|
On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values.
Well you were the one randomly throwing in fucking driving arrests, when I was solely talking about homicides. I still think, no one should give a rats ass about this event. Its like hyping up a mediocre movie, you are only feeding the fire. By the time this event/trial ends, we will have 300 black on black homicides. But the narrative here would make a much better movie than those other deaths.
|
On August 15 2014 12:48 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so. So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities. who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again?
Work on your logic. Possibility is not reality. And who cares who shops there?
Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds is an act of violence against the community.
|
On August 15 2014 12:59 Roswell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:42 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 11:02 Roswell wrote:On August 15 2014 05:22 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 15 2014 04:59 Roswell wrote:Blacks kill white people at a much higher rate than the reverse and for black victims almost 90% of the offenders are black thttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ttp://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/emselves. So who cares? If this policeman is a murderer then so be it, no need to start acting like this is the 1800s. Of 2011 homicides... (Fbi web, http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6 ) 3127 were white offenders 2694 were black offenders Yet blacks make up less than 10% of the population. Oh my god, we should start reversing our entire livelihoods and get all lame. I get that this is a policeman and things are different, but judging from theguardian it would appear unarmed blacks are being killed by the dozens every day by the great evil white people. Stupid shit to get riled up at. People are people. Race card is lamer than farcry 3s multiplayer Don't be dumb. Over policing of black communities specifically in Missouri goes way beyond this one incident. Heres the data as collected by the States Attorney General s office. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/ Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about homicides not if someone was speeding too fast. Fact remains, black on black homicide rates are absurd, (as are any where blacks are the offenders.) If you want to talk about which car insurance hispanics drive vs hawaiian then that is cool though. This is a social and cultural issue, poorer people in urban areas tend to commit more crime, unfortunately blacks represent a great portion of those statistics. There are bigger evils happening in america than 4/20,000 homicides annually occurring where a controversial he said she said between a white offender and a black victim. For a country moving away from superstition it sure is funny that somehow someway "If a person kills a member of a different race, the evil neutrons and energy manifests itself greater, and that perpetrator must be punished more, thus sayeth the emperor of black people, the honorable and talented mr sharpton." Except we weren't talking about homicide. At least I wasn't. I was talking about the way police treat black communities differently. That's what the Ferguson protests are about. A white policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager is just the incident that brought these long lingering racial tensions to the surface. It's not about white on black violence. It's about a white police force that treats the black community its supposed to be serving antagonistically. That's why the racial profiling data is relevant. It is hard evidence that black people are targeted by the mostly white police more aggressively than other racial groups. It's not like you need the data to know that though. For the people who live there, it's obvious. So yeah, Don't be dumb. You don't seem to get what this is about. Or maybe you're just unclear in your point. Maybe you believe that racial profiling and aggressive policing of black neighborhoods is warranted and you're pointing to homicide statistics to make that point. I would disagree. I have different values. Well you were the one randomly throwing in fucking driving arrests, when I was solely talking about homicides. I still think, no one should give a rats ass about this event. Its like hyping up a mediocre movie, you are only feeding the fire. By the time this event/trial ends, we will have 300 black on black homicides. But the narrative here would make a much better movie than those other deaths.
What are you talking about? Seriously what are you talking about? Black on black homicide?
|
On August 15 2014 13:00 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 12:48 Sermokala wrote:On August 15 2014 12:18 IgnE wrote:
they are the bad guys for the most part. and who do you think owns those businesses getting looted? black people from ferguson? dont think so. So black people don't have the ability to own small business's in their communities. who do you think works at those business's and shops at those business's? is it not black people again? Work on your logic. Possibility is not reality. And who cares who shops there? Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds is an act of violence against the community.
Bringing in riot police from outside the community to intimidate the crowds to restore the rule of law isn't violence against the community its the whole purpose of having constables to patrol for you.
Are you advocating them to just allow anarchy to envelope the community and to just stand back while the whole city burns to the ground while they dwadle their thumbs?
Please tell me what you would have the local government do in this situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
