On November 19 2012 02:43 ampson wrote: Perhaps if Israel wants to stop rocket strikes, they should leave the people of Gaza alone in the first place,
agreed. stop sending them electricity, gas, supplies through border crossings. stop letting gazans get health care in israeli hospitals. hermetically seal the place and let them deal with the world through the egyptian border. that would be better wouldn't it? i supported the 2005 dismantling of settlements and disengagement from Gaza thinking that it was a step towards a more peaceful coexistance. the palesinians chose hamas to represent them and are now facing the consequences.
I'm quite sure gaza will fare much better with no help from israel, and no blockade.
Netanyahu has said he is open to a comprehensive and long-term ceasefire and that appears to be the way things are going with negotiations going on in Egypt, but it has to be a real cease-fire with absolutely no rocket/mortar attacks or attempted rocket/mortar firings, no attempted attacks on Israeli soldiers at the border, no attempted tunnel-digging under the border, no attempted infiltrations, in return for no more IDF attacks and an easing of the blockade.
If the Palestinians are serious about peace, stop shooting rockets entirely and Israel will have no choice but to also not attack.
I'm quite sure gaza will fare much better with no help from israel, and no blockade.
Yeah... Gaza would collapse without Israel blockade or no blockade. Sorry but you're just going to have to deal with Jews.
also if Jordan and Egypt don't "give a fuck" and "it isn't their problem" than why do they keep condemning Israel? why don't they mind their own business?
everyone here remembers Jordan deporting Palestinians because they didn't want them becoming comfortable, right? in fact, if Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon had opened their borders to their fellow Arabs years ago, then there wouldn't be a problem. they've manufactured an international crises and now they want Israel to solve it all, knowing full well that Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place. the more concessions Israel gives, the more aggression they receive. the less concessions they give, the more the agitprop works against them in the court of world opinion.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
No sorry, I'm sure they mind even if it's for the cause. About your second point, I have made so many posts about why the only realistic way to peace must start with Israel (HellRoxYa paraphrases it very well with "guess who's in the driver's seat?") and I got not a single reply so at this point I'll stop. I think you truly believe you are on the right side and the IDF can do no wrong, I really wish you would be more self reflective and critical. I highly recommend the New York Times article posted by Rebs to get a different perspective. The actions of Israel right now may or may not be morally right but are they wise? Do they offer a realistic long term solution?
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
On November 19 2012 02:18 Goozen wrote: [quote] Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Are you saying Israel has never used Palestinians as human shields?
Before responding to this incident i want to point out how flawed the comparison is as Hamas entrenches itself in civilian areas, hides munitions in homes/mosques/schools never tries to avoid hurting its own civilians and actively targets Israeli civilians. Now, the case you linked was known as "operation neighbor" when Israeli forces wanted to arrest someone for fear of getting shot at they would use a local to call for him to come out and open the door. As a result of this going public it was outlawed by the supreme court and is no longer done.
Yes, the fact remains it occured. Imagine what you would think if your son was taken or daughter by armed men to go door to door? Those feelings just evaporate? The reason Hamas has so much support is because of the abuses Israel has placed upon Palestinians. Whether they're looking back going "shit we should have thought that over a bit harder" doesn't matter because blowback is something that occurs after a specific event, it doesn't randomly correct itself.
And yet Hamas dose it all the time and its part of their M.O. You think i, as a Israeli lack reasons to hate the Palestinians? and yet if we were to act on them just like Hamas dose all the time i dont think you would consider us justified despite the fact you will use the exact same logic to justify what they do. Pure double standards.
No my position is that Israel needs to stop reciving so much support globally for their action. The idea that Israel is looked at as the "good guys" is absurdity, I'm not equating that the Hamas is not doing things that are wrong nor unjustifiable, I'm asserting that the IDF is known to do similar actions and such should be punished accordingly. Just because a nation has the bigger stick doesn't mean it should swing it at every chance it has, Israelis and Palestinians have reasons to hate the Hamas and the IDF and if they both support said factions then they in turn will hate each other.
The issue is that Israel is given the reigns of control and said "go play" by the US as it veto's every sanction on Israel and it continues to play poorly.
If Israel and the IDF want to be looked at in a bright light, perhaps they should not be demonizing Palestine while doing so, you want to be looked at positively while the other side is looked at negatively yet you use similar techniques ? Doesn't fly to well.
As far as global support, if there were to be a vote in the UN that says: Israel should withdraw to 48' lines, all jews leave Palestinian territory and all those arabs who descended from people who lived in the 48' lines be allowed to return to Israeli territory" it would pass with a majority. We have courts who punish those who break the law, and with 12,000 rockets landing in Israel since 2005 i dont think we have swung the big stick. As a democracy with values we check ourselves but without US support in the UN would be bullied in to a corner. I have shown may times and so have other people that Israel has higher standers then any other western army engaged in combat: + Show Spoiler +
On November 19 2012 03:27 sc2superfan101 wrote: also if Jordan and Egypt don't "give a fuck" and "it isn't their problem" than why do they keep condemning Israel? why don't they mind their own business?
everyone here remembers Jordan deporting Palestinians because they didn't want them becoming comfortable, right? in fact, if Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon had opened their borders to their fellow Arabs years ago, then there wouldn't be a problem. they've manufactured an international crises and now they want Israel to solve it all, knowing full well that Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place. the more concessions Israel gives, the more aggression they receive. the less concessions they give, the more the agitprop works against them in the court of world opinion.
Jordan cared so much about the Palestinians they, like the other Arab countries that care about them so much, wouldn't let them leave refugee camps for 20 years and then killed 10,000 Palestinians in a single month in 1970 (Black September) because the Palestinians were sick of it and were about to try to take over Jordan themselves. How many decades did it take for Israel to kill 10,000 Palestinians? But remember, Israel doesn't care about how many Palestinians it kills...
On November 19 2012 01:49 sc2superfan101 wrote: [quote] "The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
well, first of all, a dead terrorist is a terrorist that can't hurt you, so they solved that problem pretty neatly.
I didn't think they had killed civilians in that strike?
On November 19 2012 02:43 ampson wrote: Perhaps if Israel wants to stop rocket strikes, they should leave the people of Gaza alone in the first place,
agreed. stop sending them electricity, gas, supplies through border crossings. stop letting gazans get health care in israeli hospitals. hermetically seal the place and let them deal with the world through the egyptian border. that would be better wouldn't it? i supported the 2005 dismantling of settlements and disengagement from Gaza thinking that it was a step towards a more peaceful coexistance. the palesinians chose hamas to represent them and are now facing the consequences.
I'm quite sure gaza will fare much better with no help from israel, and no blockade.
Note that gaza has a border with Egypt also. Pre second intifada there was no violence, and no blockade. And as far as no help, Israel (not Egypt) supply the electricity, water, gas among other things. As long as their is violence and hamas wants and try to destroy us, there will be a blockade from the Israeli border.
On November 19 2012 01:49 sc2superfan101 wrote: [quote] "The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
And when they store weapons and hide among civilians as they fire rockets, what do you do then?
On November 19 2012 01:49 sc2superfan101 wrote: [quote] "The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
Israel has 0 obligation to make sure they kill no civilians. The fact is your Arabs are trying to kill Israeli civilians on purpose to go to magic land after they die. Israel has every right to defend itself. It`s already holding the moral high ground by targeting military targets.
On November 19 2012 03:27 sc2superfan101 wrote: also if Jordan and Egypt don't "give a fuck" and "it isn't their problem" than why do they keep condemning Israel? why don't they mind their own business?
everyone here remembers Jordan deporting Palestinians because they didn't want them becoming comfortable, right? in fact, if Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon had opened their borders to their fellow Arabs years ago, then there wouldn't be a problem. they've manufactured an international crises and now they want Israel to solve it all, knowing full well that Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place. the more concessions Israel gives, the more aggression they receive. the less concessions they give, the more the agitprop works against them in the court of world opinion.
Great post. Don't expect people to respond well to unaltered history and reality though. No one has the ability to look past black and white or the most recent news. So many people post here and clearly have no grasp of the history of the conflict, it's sad. But I totally agree with you.
On November 19 2012 02:15 Grettin wrote: People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Oh I understand, you're the type of person that needs me to post pictures of dead Israelis and injured babies, and tell you how millions of Israelis run to bomb shelter every hour, for you to realize that Israelis are not "pretty safe".
But I don't do that unfortunately, I am here to show you how the country with the strongest willed citizens on earth deals with a situation that no other country deals with. We are not a poor defenseless country, but we sit and do nothing and let our citizens be shot at for years before we actually retaliate. And it is entirely obvious to me how any other country on earth (and firstly your country) would deal with an organization that constantly shoots rockets at its civilians.
And about the people in Gaza, this is the bitter truth that everyone needs to accept: People in Gaza are suffering FIRSTLY because of Hamas. You can blame Israel all you want, but look at the West Bank and look at Gaza and make your own conclusions.
I don't need to see pictures of things you mentioned and i'm not saying that Israel hasn't suffered or lost any casualties either. All i'm saying that even though IDF tries not to harm any civilians when targeting Hamas, innocent people still die. But when it comes to Israel, your excellent defensive system protects the hell out of you from most of the Hamas's rockets compared to what happens in Gaza everytime a rocket hits their ground. Of course there has been all the suicide bombings and whatnot happening in the border for example, but still.
I mean, just look at this video or hell, even the "reports" made by IDF about how many rockets Iron Dome intercepted today. You surely cannot say that you don't feel way safer when Iron Dome is protecting you. I doubt that in Gaza, the situation is as calm and "safe" than it is in Israel. Sure your people might be running to the shelters every hour, which is good and obvious thing of course, but so far we've seen the ineffectiveness of Hamas's rockets in these past few days. And no, i'm not saying that Israelis should stop running to the bomb shelters or be as safe as possible or that they should just let Hamas do what ever they want and not do anything about it.
Oh, and by no means i'm trying to blame Israel here, even if it would sound that way. I'm not supporting neither 'party' in fact. I simply mourn for the people who suffers because of this, was it a Palestinian or a Israeli.
The thing is, despite the 90% efficacy of iron dome, 1 death is too many and for 1 million people living under fire enough was enough. Yes Israeli citizens are safer, and yes the Palestinian civilians deaths are regrettable but something had to be done to change the reality.
Are you implying that it's better for Palestinians to die, than Israelis?
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
well, first of all, a dead terrorist is a terrorist that can't hurt you, so they solved that problem pretty neatly.
I didn't think they had killed civilians in that strike?
According to reports that airstrike killed 5 others including a baby and a 7 year old as well as injuring 40 others.
On November 19 2012 02:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: [quote] Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
well, first of all, a dead terrorist is a terrorist that can't hurt you, so they solved that problem pretty neatly.
I didn't think they had killed civilians in that strike?
According to reports that airstrike killed 5 others including a baby and a 7 year old as well as injuring 40 others.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
well, first of all, a dead terrorist is a terrorist that can't hurt you, so they solved that problem pretty neatly.
I didn't think they had killed civilians in that strike?
According to reports that airstrike killed 5 others including a baby and a 7 year old as well as injuring 40 others.
On November 19 2012 02:56 Ren91 wrote: Anyway that's untrue, as Hamas have been elected by the people, generally people want to fight back after their lands, livelihoods and children have been taken from them.
Hamas has been elected by the people in January 2006 for a period of 4 years. Since then, they keep on going. Does this sound like a democratic system? They were elected after Israel removed it's soldiers from Gaza and deported all the Jews from there, that is, after they got back the land of Gaza.
they didnt get gaza back. gaza is still under siege. its military occupation is still a issue of depute. it is still under military emposed blockade. Gaza is not a free land.
On November 19 2012 02:54 FreedomMurder wrote: Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Nope. Actually, Israel survived through its early years mostly by fighting alone, since the western leaders had bigger fish to fry and mostly didn't give a shit about this area of the world. France and the United Kingdom were too busy losing their colonies, the USA didn't care at all (to the point of taking sides with Egypt during the Suez crisis by forcing Israel to withdraw from the Sinai peninsula), the rest of Europe was in a reconstruction phase.
This whole scenario you describe is a mere fantasy (or a crude falsehood).
Yeah, uh, history revisionism is quite terrible isn't it? The US wanted to avoid an escalation of fighting which may well have lead to world war 3. They forced Israel to give up the terriroty by necessity. And this is after the UK and France acted with Israel against US wishes. Again, history revisionism is quite bad.
On November 19 2012 02:15 Grettin wrote: People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Oh I understand, you're the type of person that needs me to post pictures of dead Israelis and injured babies, and tell you how millions of Israelis run to bomb shelter every hour, for you to realize that Israelis are not "pretty safe".
But I don't do that unfortunately, I am here to show you how the country with the strongest willed citizens on earth deals with a situation that no other country deals with. We are not a poor defenseless country, but we sit and do nothing and let our citizens be shot at for years before we actually retaliate. And it is entirely obvious to me how any other country on earth (and firstly your country) would deal with an organization that constantly shoots rockets at its civilians.
And about the people in Gaza, this is the bitter truth that everyone needs to accept: People in Gaza are suffering FIRSTLY because of Hamas. You can blame Israel all you want, but look at the West Bank and look at Gaza and make your own conclusions.
I don't need to see pictures of things you mentioned and i'm not saying that Israel hasn't suffered or lost any casualties either. All i'm saying that even though IDF tries not to harm any civilians when targeting Hamas, innocent people still die. But when it comes to Israel, your excellent defensive system protects the hell out of you from most of the Hamas's rockets compared to what happens in Gaza everytime a rocket hits their ground. Of course there has been all the suicide bombings and whatnot happening in the border for example, but still.
I mean, just look at this video or hell, even the "reports" made by IDF about how many rockets Iron Dome intercepted today. You surely cannot say that you don't feel way safer when Iron Dome is protecting you. I doubt that in Gaza, the situation is as calm and "safe" than it is in Israel. Sure your people might be running to the shelters every hour, which is good and obvious thing of course, but so far we've seen the ineffectiveness of Hamas's rockets in these past few days. And no, i'm not saying that Israelis should stop running to the bomb shelters or be as safe as possible or that they should just let Hamas do what ever they want and not do anything about it.
Oh, and by no means i'm trying to blame Israel here, even if it would sound that way. I'm not supporting neither 'party' in fact. I simply mourn for the people who suffers because of this, was it a Palestinian or a Israeli.
The thing is, despite the 90% efficacy of iron dome, 1 death is too many and for 1 million people living under fire enough was enough. Yes Israeli citizens are safer, and yes the Palestinian civilians deaths are regrettable but something had to be done to change the reality.
Are you implying that it's better for Palestinians to die, than Israelis?
If any government had to choose: A civilian from your country or one from a country whos trying to attack you (and hides his militants with civilians and uses them as shields) i know what any government would choose.
EPT
