On November 19 2012 02:15 Grettin wrote: People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Oh I understand, you're the type of person that needs me to post pictures of dead Israelis and injured babies, and tell you how millions of Israelis run to bomb shelter every hour, for you to realize that Israelis are not "pretty safe".
But I don't do that unfortunately, I am here to show you how the country with the strongest willed citizens on earth deals with a situation that no other country deals with. We are not a poor defenseless country, but we sit and do nothing and let our citizens be shot at for years before we actually retaliate. And it is entirely obvious to me how any other country on earth (and firstly your country) would deal with an organization that constantly shoots rockets at its civilians.
And about the people in Gaza, this is the bitter truth that everyone needs to accept: People in Gaza are suffering FIRSTLY because of Hamas. You can blame Israel all you want, but look at the West Bank and look at Gaza and make your own conclusions.
The west bank that's partially occupied by Israeli forces? The west bank that's being economically terrorized by Israeli settlements and colonists? Taking over more and more of the land that's viable for agriculture, taking over all viable wells?
I don't see how Israel comes off as the good guy by looking at the west bank at all.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
this post is giving so many wrongs information, if you want to present something in a forum you should do it AFTER you know the correct details about what is going on.
about the attack on Jabri, in the attack Jabri was killed togther with 2 more people, its important to note that all 3 were Hamas terrorist and therefore they were taken down. NO children died during that attack.
This attack by Israel came after 2 months of constant missile launches from Gaza to Israeli civil territories, Hamas have put 1.5 Million Israelis under fire with his rockets and thats the reason Israel went to the attack. Its the first time for years that Israel is going to an operation where we got almost 100% of support not only from USA but also from the EU,
this acts by Israel are more than ok, Israel must do everything it can in order to protect its people from these crimes made by hamas.
i must add that i think that the people of gaza (not hamas's people) are also hostages by the terrorist organization who puts the civilian under fire and trying to hide behind woman and children in order to avoid clashes with the Israeli army.
On November 19 2012 02:43 ampson wrote: Perhaps if Israel wants to stop rocket strikes, they should leave the people of Gaza alone in the first place,
Israel has left Gaza strip in 2005 and there is not even a single Israeli soldier or civil in the gaza strip since. Please learn some history it can always help.
On November 19 2012 02:15 Grettin wrote: People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Oh I understand, you're the type of person that needs me to post pictures of dead Israelis and injured babies, and tell you how millions of Israelis run to bomb shelter every hour, for you to realize that Israelis are not "pretty safe".
But I don't do that unfortunately, I am here to show you how the country with the strongest willed citizens on earth deals with a situation that no other country deals with. We are not a poor defenseless country, but we sit and do nothing and let our citizens be shot at for years before we actually retaliate. And it is entirely obvious to me how any other country on earth (and firstly your country) would deal with an organization that constantly shoots rockets at its civilians.
And about the people in Gaza, this is the bitter truth that everyone needs to accept: People in Gaza are suffering FIRSTLY because of Hamas. You can blame Israel all you want, but look at the West Bank and look at Gaza and make your own conclusions.
I don't need to see pictures of things you mentioned and i'm not saying that Israel hasn't suffered or lost any casualties either. All i'm saying that even though IDF tries not to harm any civilians when targeting Hamas, innocent people still die. But when it comes to Israel, your excellent defensive system protects the hell out of you from most of the Hamas's rockets compared to what happens in Gaza everytime a rocket hits their ground. Of course there has been all the suicide bombings and whatnot happening in the border for example, but still.
I mean, just look at this video or hell, even the "reports" made by IDF about how many rockets Iron Dome intercepted today. You surely cannot say that you don't feel way safer when Iron Dome is protecting you. I doubt that in Gaza, the situation is as calm and "safe" than it is in Israel. Sure your people might be running to the shelters every hour, which is good and obvious thing of course, but so far we've seen the ineffectiveness of Hamas's rockets in these past few days. And no, i'm not saying that Israelis should stop running to the bomb shelters or be as safe as possible or that they should just let Hamas do what ever they want and not do anything about it.
Oh, and by no means i'm trying to blame Israel here, even if it would sound that way. I'm not supporting neither 'party' in fact. I simply mourn for the people who suffers because of this, was it a Palestinian or a Israeli.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
On November 19 2012 02:43 ampson wrote: Perhaps if Israel wants to stop rocket strikes, they should leave the people of Gaza alone in the first place,
agreed. stop sending them electricity, gas, supplies through border crossings. stop letting gazans get health care in israeli hospitals. hermetically seal the place and let them deal with the world through the egyptian border. that would be better wouldn't it? i supported the 2005 dismantling of settlements and disengagement from Gaza thinking that it was a step towards a more peaceful coexistance. the palesinians chose hamas to represent them and are now facing the consequences.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Its funny cause Israel is a democratic state, while most nations beside it are dictatorships, if our government was to blame we would replace it, but whoever is in charge has to take actions or else we would be destroyed, but I guess you know all about it from your harsh, war-torn country, oh wait no, you don't.
And those actions include acting against international laws such as the geneva convention to achieve said goals and negating the Red Cross from getting into Palestine on multiple occassions?
If Israel was protecting itself and accidents happen that'd be fine, no one is saying that they shouldn't defend themselves but they're not just defending themselves, they're abusing their position and power immensely and it pains me that is troubling for you to see.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
You talk nonsense. I never heard anyone other than you saying that Israel is now shooting white phosphorous shells in hospitals. You are out of this world. How come there are less than 40 palestinian casualties (most terrorists) after 1000 strikes? With white phosphorous shells on hospitals? They must have pretty empty hospitals there...
sorry what were you saying about nonesense? I didn't know citing facts were nonsense, I'll now resort to not condemning the use of white phosphorous because it'll help you sleep better at night. Do you even know anything you're talking about?
I found this nice piece from Tel Aviv.
Hamas is no saint sure. But the one with the bigger stick doesnt have to use all of it. Gogo Beni.. eh?
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
sorry what were you saying about nonesense? I didn't know citing facts were nonsense, I'll now resort to not condemning the use of white phosphorous because it'll help you sleep better at night. Do you even know anything you're talking about?
We are talking about this war. You are talking as if you know for a fact that Israel is using now in 2012 white phosphorus shells on hospitals. Maybe you didn't read the OP. If you can't figure out what are we talking about and still go on about 2009, find another forum to waste our time.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
While this is partially true its a redundant argument at this point.
Whether it was right or wrong to have Israel created is irrelevant. Israel has people living their to now who have children and grand children.
The only realistic possibility is a 2 state solution where the bigger fish gives a little bit more (sup Obama) ..
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Yeah... that's pretty much the opposite of how things happened. Britain was on the Arab side (trying to limit Jewish immigration, Britain was the main arms supplier for the Arab armies, the best Arab army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, had British officers, and the USA didn't give anything but diplomatic support to Israel until after the Suez War. Israel had to smuggle weapons mostly from Czechoslovakia (and some from France) for the 48 war because no Western country would openly support them with materiel.
I know it's very upsetting to think that it wasn't a racist imperialist conspiracy, but the Jews were on their own. And they won. Cry more about it.
sorry what were you saying about nonesense? I didn't know citing facts were nonsense, I'll now resort to not condemning the use of white phosphorous because it'll help you sleep better at night. Do you even know anything you're talking about?
We are talking about this war. You are talking as if you know for a fact that Israel is using now white phosphorus shells on hospitals. Maybe you didn't read the OP. If you can't figure out what are we talking about and still go on about 2009, find another forum to waste our time.
Shit man, yoiu're right 3 years ago? Way to far in the past, let's just forget the massive human rights abuses and pretend like they never happened because there's no way they can relate. I mean when has history EVER repeated itself, absolute impossibility to say the least so we best not discuss relevant historical events that could be directly related to the causation of the massive support for Hamas, totally irrelevant.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Yeah... that's pretty much the opposite of how things happened. Britain was on the Arab side and the USA didn't give anything but diplomatic support to Israel until the 1960s. Israel had to smuggle weapons mostly from Czechoslovakia for the 48 war because no Western country would openly support them with materiel.
I know it's very upsetting to think that it wasn't a racist imperialist conspiracy, but the Jews were on their own. And they won. Cry more about it.
You're generally correct until you got to the "jews were on their own" comment. Thought the US didn't involve themselves for awhile, the second that Russia began funneling weapons into the Middle East the United States equally began funneling weapons into Israel such that when the kids at the playground came knocking with sticks, Israel had a big bat.
USA really didn't involve themselves in foreign affairs until WW2 and then after WW2 only really when speaking about Russian involvement globally (to my knowledge) and wherever Russia wanted to gain a foothold, US supported the opposite side.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Are you saying Israel has never used Palestinians as human shields?
Before responding to this incident i want to point out how flawed the comparison is as Hamas entrenches itself in civilian areas, hides munitions in homes/mosques/schools never tries to avoid hurting its own civilians and actively targets Israeli civilians. Now, the case you linked was known as "operation neighbor" when Israeli forces wanted to arrest someone for fear of getting shot at they would use a local to call for him to come out and open the door. As a result of this going public it was outlawed by the supreme court and is no longer done.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hZ0mW.png)
Shit man, yoiu're right 3 years ago? Way to far in the past, let's just forget the massive human rights abuses and pretend like they never happened because there's no way they can relate. I mean when has history EVER repeated itself, absolute impossibility to say the least so we best not discuss relevant historical events that could be directly related to the causation of the massive support for Hamas, totally irrelevant.
