Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
On November 19 2012 00:27 Goozen wrote: Here is a interesting read, just came up: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/18/palestinians-israel-rockets-duds-idUSL5E8MI2MI20121118 In a nutshell what is says is that some of those rockets hitting tel-aviv are basically pipes as all the long ranged rockets have actually been destroyed. So what Hamas does is strips the warhead off and fires it to just setting off alarms and scare people.
Very interesting. That doesn't really square with "Hamas shoots rockets with the intent to kill as many as possible" though, which does not surprise me. Will this change anything for all those people connecting morality only to intention? I doubt it.
On November 19 2012 01:00 Goozen wrote: To those who asked before why attack the media offices, here is the reply
The Israeli military said the attacks were pinpoint strikes on Hamas communication devices located on the buildings' roofs, and accused the Islamist group of using reporters as human shields to try and protect their operations.... "Hamas took a civilian building and used it for its own needs. So the journalists ... were serving as human shields for Hamas," she said. The military added that in order to avoid worse casualties, it had refrained from firing at an Hamas operations room which it said was located inside one of the buildings.
Yeah I wrote about this (at the time I did, I did only know about one of the buildings allegedly used for coordination of troops). From a military tactic position this is a legitimate target but that does not make it alright in my eyes, since journalists still were in the way and it would have not been unlikely that some get killed. Also it does not look like they were warned at all (I don't really get why they wouldn't warn the foreign media at least, just from a tactical point of view). And calling this the use of human shields is a bit hilarious, it's not that Hamas started to built up their communication center at the 14th and decided for a building with journalists. Probably they used antennas that were already on the building to their advantage. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and not shoot at targets if you want to do right. Sometimes it sounds like the IDF would only be satisfied if Hamas build their headquarter in an open field writing "Hamas" in big red letters on their roof so they could be killed all at once (and all their weapons should be located there as well). Which totally misses the reality of Gaza.
[EDIT]: I'm writing about the quotes from the article, not so much about your post which I appreciate. I guess it is good that the IDF held back a little.
On November 19 2012 00:18 moskonia wrote: I don't know if this was presented here or not, but this is a good video that explains the situation. I hope everyone here sees it.
cant post often enough, as the poll suggests at least 28% antisemites here
Equating a dislike of Israel's military and government with antisemitism is just straight up wrong.
edit: removed some nonsense from my post
28% are saying the support a organization who praises and practices eliminatory antisemitism and keeps its own people as hostages. and you dont let me call these 28% what they really are?
And that statement is straight up wrong also, as the poll didn't ask if people supported Hamas, but Palestine. Yes, Hamas was the democratically selected party, but that doesn't mean that people can't believe that the civilians in Palestine have a rawer deal then the citizens of Israel.
hamas are the combatants in this conflict. so the poll really asks wheter you support israel or the hamas.
also. just because participated in an election, it doesnt make them a democratic party all of a sudden. yes they won the election, but in summer of 2007 they took the power by violence and slaughtered members of the Fatah to establish their islamistic regime. those palesinians who seek for peaceful coexistence between israel and palestine have deserved better than this.
Don't mistake peaceniks for anti-Semites. These are the same people who complain about US using the atomic bomb or carpet bombing cities during World War II. They don't hate Jews. They just are clueless about warfare and modern armed conflict.
Deciding to use an ad hominem but after the election thread, shouldn't you be the last one asserting cluelessness into a discussion with how horrendously you called and presented statistics? I mean common, let's be serious xDaunt, you're reign of bullshit has long come to an end and the comparison of the use of an atomic bomb during WW2 to how Israel is acting is just as offbase as all of your comments in every other thread. A more accurate assertion would be to say people are critical of the US intervention in the Middle East(most specifically Iraq) as Israel's intervention into Palestinian affairs (IE demolition, relocation, imprisoning).
On November 19 2012 01:02 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: No words needed. The video speaks for itself.
So this describes every American? I mean "video speaks for itself". Please before posting such things, think.... The idea of equating single actions or specific actions is ludicrious to say the least. No one is saying what the Hamas does isn't horrendous, but the argument is more on the side of "blowback" as the CIA puts it when you fuck with other people, both sides are equally wrong the only difference is that the Israeli's have updated techology and can do their bombing of cities from the sky while Hamas must use cars and suicide bombings to do equivalent.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
Statistically you can answer your question by looking at times when the dome was not yet in effect. If you look at the number of persons killed by rockets from Gaza the ratio is something like 1:200 right? Every death is too much but we should keep the tone of discussion at a sensible level.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
I haven't updated it because of school.
If the poll is retarded, how come it's showing relatively even numbers?
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
Statistically you can answer your question by looking at times when the dome was not yet in effect. If you look at the number of persons killed by rockets from Gaza the ratio is something like 1:200 right? Every death is too much but we should keep the tone of discussion at a sensible level.
You did not fully read his post, Hamas fired many many more rockets, but the Iron Dome only intercepted those which are going to hit cities and towns or near them, only rockets which might endanger life are destroyed by the system, but there is a large number of missiles that hit open spaces.
If the Iron Dome did not exist now there would be a LOT more deaths.
On November 19 2012 00:27 Goozen wrote: Here is a interesting read, just came up: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/18/palestinians-israel-rockets-duds-idUSL5E8MI2MI20121118 In a nutshell what is says is that some of those rockets hitting tel-aviv are basically pipes as all the long ranged rockets have actually been destroyed. So what Hamas does is strips the warhead off and fires it to just setting off alarms and scare people.
Very interesting. That doesn't really square with "Hamas shoots rockets with the intent to kill as many as possible" though, which does not surprise me. Will this change anything for all those people connecting morality only to intention? I doubt it.
On November 19 2012 01:00 Goozen wrote: To those who asked before why attack the media offices, here is the reply
The Israeli military said the attacks were pinpoint strikes on Hamas communication devices located on the buildings' roofs, and accused the Islamist group of using reporters as human shields to try and protect their operations.... "Hamas took a civilian building and used it for its own needs. So the journalists ... were serving as human shields for Hamas," she said. The military added that in order to avoid worse casualties, it had refrained from firing at an Hamas operations room which it said was located inside one of the buildings.
Yeah I wrote about this (at the time I did, I did only know about one of the buildings allegedly used for coordination of troops). From a military tactic position this is a legitimate target but that does not make it alright in my eyes, since journalists still were in the way and it would have not been unlikely that some get killed. Also it does not look like they were warned at all (I don't really get why they wouldn't warn the foreign media at least, just from a tactical point of view). And calling this the use of human shields is a bit hilarious, it's not that Hamas started to built up their communication center at the 14th and decided for a building with journalists. Probably they used antennas that were already on the building to their advantage. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and not shoot at targets if you want to do right. Sometimes it sounds like the IDF would only be satisfied if Hamas build their headquarter in an open field writing "Hamas" in big red letters on their roof so they could be killed all at once (and all their weapons should be located there as well). Which totally misses the reality of Gaza.
To the first point its only those with a range greater then 40 kilometers that may be duds, although there is no way to tell so it wont really change anything.
To the second point, the question is then how do you respond if you can never be sure of 0 civilian casualties? The reason they entrench themselves in the population so much is that it will or cause Israel to not strike them or that civilians may die, so for them its a win/win.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
Statistically you can answer your question by looking at times when the dome was not yet in effect. If you look at the number of persons killed by rockets from Gaza the ratio is something like 1:200 right? Every death is too much but we should keep the tone of discussion at a sensible level.
You did not fully read his post, Hamas fired many many more rockets, but the Iron Dome only intercepted those which are going to hit cities and towns or near them, only rockets which might endanger life are destroyed by the system, but there is a large number of missiles that hit open spaces.
If the Iron Dome did not exist now there would be a LOT more deaths.
Well obviously. There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
Or well, now that i think about it, who knows how well Iron Dome would defend from high-tech missiles and such what IDF has.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
I haven't updated it because of school.
If the poll is retarded, how come it's showing relatively even numbers?
it's retarded because it's irrelevant, the rockets aren't being shot by palestinians but by hamas, like Noam said
cant post often enough, as the poll suggests at least 28% antisemites here
Equating a dislike of Israel's military and government with antisemitism is just straight up wrong.
edit: removed some nonsense from my post
28% are saying the support a organization who praises and practices eliminatory antisemitism and keeps its own people as hostages. and you dont let me call these 28% what they really are?
And that statement is straight up wrong also, as the poll didn't ask if people supported Hamas, but Palestine. Yes, Hamas was the democratically selected party, but that doesn't mean that people can't believe that the civilians in Palestine have a rawer deal then the citizens of Israel.
hamas are the combatants in this conflict. so the poll really asks wheter you support israel or the hamas.
also. just because participated in an election, it doesnt make them a democratic party all of a sudden. yes they won the election, but in summer of 2007 they took the power by violence and slaughtered members of the Fatah to establish their islamistic regime. those palesinians who seek for peaceful coexistence between israel and palestine have deserved better than this.
Don't mistake peaceniks for anti-Semites. These are the same people who complain about US using the atomic bomb or carpet bombing cities during World War II. They don't hate Jews. They just are clueless about warfare and modern armed conflict.
I hope to God that you're being sarcastic.
Regular use of nukes and civilian carpet bombing as acceptable paradigms of modern warfare... you've hit a new low xDaunt.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
The hamas and all other organsiations like them and all the palestinian political parties have to be eradicated. They have failed the palestenian people and should suffer the consequences. These loosers and dogs of war should be rounded up and executed and then maybe then sincere peace talks can emerge. The palestinian people have to liberate themselves first of their worst enemy and their worst enemy is the organisations I just named. And Israels settlement policy and expansion policy sucks ... they have to stop it.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
Statistically you can answer your question by looking at times when the dome was not yet in effect. If you look at the number of persons killed by rockets from Gaza the ratio is something like 1:200 right? Every death is too much but we should keep the tone of discussion at a sensible level.
You did not fully read his post, Hamas fired many many more rockets, but the Iron Dome only intercepted those which are going to hit cities and towns or near them, only rockets which might endanger life are destroyed by the system, but there is a large number of missiles that hit open spaces.
If the Iron Dome did not exist now there would be a LOT more deaths.
sadly for some people, the lack of israeli deaths in israel is somehow an indictment of israel. considering israel spends much time and resources on iron dome, bomb shelters, warning sirens, etc... to defend themselves does not enter their thought process.
I don't support either but what I do support is Israel's right to defend it self. Hamas is a terrorist group who uses there own people as human shields.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
Statistically you can answer your question by looking at times when the dome was not yet in effect. If you look at the number of persons killed by rockets from Gaza the ratio is something like 1:200 right? Every death is too much but we should keep the tone of discussion at a sensible level.
You did not fully read his post, Hamas fired many many more rockets, but the Iron Dome only intercepted those which are going to hit cities and towns or near them, only rockets which might endanger life are destroyed by the system, but there is a large number of missiles that hit open spaces.
If the Iron Dome did not exist now there would be a LOT more deaths.
sadly for some people, the lack of israeli deaths in israel is somehow an indictment of israel. considering israel spends much time and resources on iron dome, bomb shelters, warning sirens, etc... to defend themselves does not enter their thought process.
Guess who cannot built shelters (military OR public) because there is a blockade stopping building material and guess who does not get their high defense system sponsored by the US (50k per defense rocket was it?).
Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries, as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.
This was before the iron dome. Now it's difficult to assess how many of those 8600 rockets (and mortars, which cannot be intercepted, right?) came close to settlements but some conservative guessing should give you a hint...
[EDIT]: Both Iron Dome and the rockets themselves are mostly psychological weapons.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
EPT
