On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Are you saying Israel has never used Palestinians as human shields?
Before responding to this incident i want to point out how flawed the comparison is as Hamas entrenches itself in civilian areas, hides munitions in homes/mosques/schools never tries to avoid hurting its own civilians and actively targets Israeli civilians. Now, the case you linked was known as "operation neighbor" when Israeli forces wanted to arrest someone for fear of getting shot at they would use a local to call for him to come out and open the door. As a result of this going public it was outlawed by the supreme court and is no longer done.
Yes, the fact remains it occured. Imagine what you would think if your son was taken or daughter by armed men to go door to door? Those feelings just evaporate? The reason Hamas has so much support is because of the abuses Israel has placed upon Palestinians. Whether they're looking back going "shit we should have thought that over a bit harder" doesn't matter because blowback is something that occurs after a specific event, it doesn't randomly correct itself.
On November 19 2012 02:15 Grettin wrote: People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Oh I understand, you're the type of person that needs me to post pictures of dead Israelis and injured babies, and tell you how millions of Israelis run to bomb shelter every hour, for you to realize that Israelis are not "pretty safe".
But I don't do that unfortunately, I am here to show you how the country with the strongest willed citizens on earth deals with a situation that no other country deals with. We are not a poor defenseless country, but we sit and do nothing and let our citizens be shot at for years before we actually retaliate. And it is entirely obvious to me how any other country on earth (and firstly your country) would deal with an organization that constantly shoots rockets at its civilians.
And about the people in Gaza, this is the bitter truth that everyone needs to accept: People in Gaza are suffering FIRSTLY because of Hamas. You can blame Israel all you want, but look at the West Bank and look at Gaza and make your own conclusions.
I don't need to see pictures of things you mentioned and i'm not saying that Israel hasn't suffered or lost any casualties either. All i'm saying that even though IDF tries not to harm any civilians when targeting Hamas, innocent people still die. But when it comes to Israel, your excellent defensive system protects the hell out of you from most of the Hamas's rockets compared to what happens in Gaza everytime a rocket hits their ground. Of course there has been all the suicide bombings and whatnot happening in the border for example, but still.
I mean, just look at this video or hell, even the "reports" made by IDF about how many rockets Iron Dome intercepted today. You surely cannot say that you don't feel way safer when Iron Dome is protecting you. I doubt that in Gaza, the situation is as calm and "safe" than it is in Israel. Sure your people might be running to the shelters every hour, which is good and obvious thing of course, but so far we've seen the ineffectiveness of Hamas's rockets in these past few days. And no, i'm not saying that Israelis should stop running to the bomb shelters or be as safe as possible or that they should just let Hamas do what ever they want and not do anything about it.
Oh, and by no means i'm trying to blame Israel here, even if it would sound that way. I'm not supporting neither 'party' in fact. I simply mourn for the people who suffers because of this, was it a Palestinian or a Israeli.
The thing is, despite the 90% efficacy of iron dome, 1 death is too many and for 1 million people living under fire enough was enough. Yes Israeli citizens are safer, and yes the Palestinian civilians deaths are regrettable but something had to be done to change the reality.
On November 19 2012 02:56 Ren91 wrote: Anyway that's untrue, as Hamas have been elected by the people, generally people want to fight back after their lands, livelihoods and children have been taken from them.
Hamas has been elected by the people in January 2006 for a period of 4 years. Since then, they keep on going. Does this sound like a democratic system? They were elected after Israel removed it's soldiers from Gaza and deported all the Jews from there, that is, after they got back the land of Gaza.
Using white phosphorus in an open area isn't a human rights abuse or a war crime.
You obviously haven't read much on white phosphorous or where those shells were hitting (like hospitals) so it\s going to be an issue to respond with your comments since they're generally ignorant. One might be (as me and Goozen are discussing) the act of using children as human shields, another might be the imprisonment of children in Gaza being treated as adults or the massive imprisonment anyway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel, or it could be the negation of human rights groups to survey the area or even help the wounded (red cross). This isn't even equating the amount of just general abuse by IDF soldiers, https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/08/27-3.
Well, I searched the thread for "video" and didn't see this one posted, so not sure if legit I'm impressed at the precision of the attack http://bloom.bg/T3r3s1
edit: I guess it was linked in one of the OP articles herp
On November 19 2012 02:01 Noam wrote: [quote] What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Before responding to this incident i want to point out how flawed the comparison is as Hamas entrenches itself in civilian areas, hides munitions in homes/mosques/schools never tries to avoid hurting its own civilians and actively targets Israeli civilians. Now, the case you linked was known as "operation neighbor" when Israeli forces wanted to arrest someone for fear of getting shot at they would use a local to call for him to come out and open the door. As a result of this going public it was outlawed by the supreme court and is no longer done.
Yes, the fact remains it occured. Imagine what you would think if your son was taken or daughter by armed men to go door to door? Those feelings just evaporate? The reason Hamas has so much support is because of the abuses Israel has placed upon Palestinians. Whether they're looking back going "shit we should have thought that over a bit harder" doesn't matter because blowback is something that occurs after a specific event, it doesn't randomly correct itself.
And yet Hamas dose it all the time and its part of their M.O. You think i, as a Israeli lack reasons to hate the Palestinians? and yet if we were to act on them just like Hamas dose all the time i dont think you would consider us justified despite the fact you will use the exact same logic to justify what they do. Pure double standards.
On November 19 2012 02:15 Grettin wrote: People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Oh I understand, you're the type of person that needs me to post pictures of dead Israelis and injured babies, and tell you how millions of Israelis run to bomb shelter every hour, for you to realize that Israelis are not "pretty safe".
But I don't do that unfortunately, I am here to show you how the country with the strongest willed citizens on earth deals with a situation that no other country deals with. We are not a poor defenseless country, but we sit and do nothing and let our citizens be shot at for years before we actually retaliate. And it is entirely obvious to me how any other country on earth (and firstly your country) would deal with an organization that constantly shoots rockets at its civilians.
And about the people in Gaza, this is the bitter truth that everyone needs to accept: People in Gaza are suffering FIRSTLY because of Hamas. You can blame Israel all you want, but look at the West Bank and look at Gaza and make your own conclusions.
I don't need to see pictures of things you mentioned and i'm not saying that Israel hasn't suffered or lost any casualties either. All i'm saying that even though IDF tries not to harm any civilians when targeting Hamas, innocent people still die. But when it comes to Israel, your excellent defensive system protects the hell out of you from most of the Hamas's rockets compared to what happens in Gaza everytime a rocket hits their ground. Of course there has been all the suicide bombings and whatnot happening in the border for example, but still.
I mean, just look at this video or hell, even the "reports" made by IDF about how many rockets Iron Dome intercepted today. You surely cannot say that you don't feel way safer when Iron Dome is protecting you. I doubt that in Gaza, the situation is as calm and "safe" than it is in Israel. Sure your people might be running to the shelters every hour, which is good and obvious thing of course, but so far we've seen the ineffectiveness of Hamas's rockets in these past few days. And no, i'm not saying that Israelis should stop running to the bomb shelters or be as safe as possible or that they should just let Hamas do what ever they want and not do anything about it.
Oh, and by no means i'm trying to blame Israel here, even if it would sound that way. I'm not supporting neither 'party' in fact. I simply mourn for the people who suffers because of this, was it a Palestinian or a Israeli.
I apologize for calling you one of those people. Man the people in this thread are too sensible. Where is WhiteDog ?
And an actual update: The Israeli representative that was sent to Egypt to talk about cease fire is on his way back to Israel after receiving the information from Hamas. Hamas on the other hand are reporting that "cease fire negotiations failed"
Hamas are war criminals, the IDF are war criminals too.This conflict will end when both arabs and israelis nuke each other out of the map. And somehow I feel the world would be a safer and more peaceful place after that.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Yeah... that's pretty much the opposite of how things happened. Britain was on the Arab side (trying to limit Jewish immigration, Britain was the main arms supplier for the Arab armies, the best Arab army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, had British officers, and the USA didn't give anything but diplomatic support to Israel until after the Suez War. Israel had to smuggle weapons mostly from Czechoslovakia (and some from France) for the 48 war because no Western country would openly support them with materiel.
I know it's very upsetting to think that it wasn't a racist imperialist conspiracy, but the Jews were on their own. And they won. Cry more about it.
Did I ever say that it was a racist imperialist conspiracy? NO. I'm a Jew and I still admit that Israel only exists because it has things that benefit more powerful countries. You say that they weren't openly supported. They weren't OPENLY supported. Thats why even to this day WW2 american made m1 carbines are commonly found in Israel...... thousands of them.... look it up, because they supported them in secrecy. My grandfather has an american made m1 carbine in his house in Israel...
Britain supported both sides to make as much money as possible. Kind of like America before they entered WW2. How is that the opposite of how things happened? Britain gave land that was formerly part of Syria to Israel. That is an undisputed fact.....
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Yeah... that's pretty much the opposite of how things happened. Britain was on the Arab side (trying to limit Jewish immigration, Britain was the main arms supplier for the Arab armies, the best Arab army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, had British officers, and the USA didn't give anything but diplomatic support to Israel until after the Suez War. Israel had to smuggle weapons mostly from Czechoslovakia (and some from France) for the 48 war because no Western country would openly support them with materiel.
I know it's very upsetting to think that it wasn't a racist imperialist conspiracy, but the Jews were on their own. And they won. Cry more about it.
Did I ever say that it was a racist imperialist conspiracy? NO. I'm a Jew and I still admit that Israel only exists because it has things that benefit more powerful countries. You say that they weren't openly supported. They weren't OPENLY supported. Thats why even to this day WW2 american made m16s are commonly found in Israel...... thousands of them.... look it up, because they supported them in secrecy. My grandfather has an american made m16 in his house in Israel...
Britain supported both sides to make as much money as possible. Kind of like America before they entered WW2. How is that the opposite of how things happened? Britain gave land that was formerly part of Syria to Israel. That is an undisputed fact.....
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Before responding to this incident i want to point out how flawed the comparison is as Hamas entrenches itself in civilian areas, hides munitions in homes/mosques/schools never tries to avoid hurting its own civilians and actively targets Israeli civilians. Now, the case you linked was known as "operation neighbor" when Israeli forces wanted to arrest someone for fear of getting shot at they would use a local to call for him to come out and open the door. As a result of this going public it was outlawed by the supreme court and is no longer done.
Yes, the fact remains it occured. Imagine what you would think if your son was taken or daughter by armed men to go door to door? Those feelings just evaporate? The reason Hamas has so much support is because of the abuses Israel has placed upon Palestinians. Whether they're looking back going "shit we should have thought that over a bit harder" doesn't matter because blowback is something that occurs after a specific event, it doesn't randomly correct itself.
And yet Hamas dose it all the time and its part of their M.O. You think i, as a Israeli lack reasons to hate the Palestinians? and yet if we were to act on them just like Hamas dose all the time i dont think you would consider us justified despite the fact you will use the exact same logic to justify what they do. Pure double standards.
No my position is that Israel needs to stop reciving so much support globally for their action. The idea that Israel is looked at as the "good guys" is absurdity, I'm not equating that the Hamas is not doing things that are wrong nor unjustifiable, I'm asserting that the IDF is known to do similar actions and such should be punished accordingly. Just because a nation has the bigger stick doesn't mean it should swing it at every chance it has, Israelis and Palestinians have reasons to hate the Hamas and the IDF and if they both support said factions then they in turn will hate each other.
The issue is that Israel is given the reigns of control and said "go play" by the US as it veto's every sanction on Israel and it continues to play poorly.
If Israel and the IDF want to be looked at in a bright light, perhaps they should not be demonizing Palestine while doing so, you want to be looked at positively while the other side is looked at negatively yet you use similar techniques ? Doesn't fly to well.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Before responding to this incident i want to point out how flawed the comparison is as Hamas entrenches itself in civilian areas, hides munitions in homes/mosques/schools never tries to avoid hurting its own civilians and actively targets Israeli civilians. Now, the case you linked was known as "operation neighbor" when Israeli forces wanted to arrest someone for fear of getting shot at they would use a local to call for him to come out and open the door. As a result of this going public it was outlawed by the supreme court and is no longer done.
Yes, the fact remains it occured. Imagine what you would think if your son was taken or daughter by armed men to go door to door? Those feelings just evaporate? The reason Hamas has so much support is because of the abuses Israel has placed upon Palestinians. Whether they're looking back going "shit we should have thought that over a bit harder" doesn't matter because blowback is something that occurs after a specific event, it doesn't randomly correct itself.
And yet Hamas dose it all the time and its part of their M.O. You think i, as a Israeli lack reasons to hate the Palestinians? and yet if we were to act on them just like Hamas dose all the time i dont think you would consider us justified despite the fact you will use the exact same logic to justify what they do. Pure double standards.
Who said anything about justification? It's not "ok", it's just how it is. They're not in the right and neither are you. However, the point is that it doesn't stop until both sides stop and guess who's in the driver's seat?
Edit: And at some point I would hope that the US stops supporting you and a UN mission gets under way which takes away control of parts of Israel (aswell as all of the arab territories) while things are worked out. No matter if it'll take 10 or 20 years of active peacekeeping. Israel obviously can't handle the situation. They only keep going with their mandate from the US.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
You obviously haven't read much on white phosphorous or where those shells were hitting (like hospitals) so it\s going to be an issue to respond with your comments since they're generally ignorant.
"Open area" does not mean "no buildings."
I'm sure that we've read a similar amount both about white phosphorus itself, the laws of war pertaining to it, and its actual use during Operation Cast Lead.
One might be (as me and Goozen are discussing) the act of using children as human shields,
And when were children used as human shields by the IDF? Or do you mean by Hamas? Because that's certainly well-documented. Do you mean adults used to knock on the doors of houses suspected to be ambush zones?
another might be the imprisonment of children in Gaza being treated as adults
How can the IDF be imprisoning children in Gaza when the IDF is not physically in Gaza? Or is this the "All of Gaza is an open-air prison" argument?
And imprisoning war criminals indefinitely is a human rights abuse because...?
If the Palestinians captured were actual soldiers they'd be detained indefinitely as prisoners of war anyway, so your point is...?
or it could be the negation of human rights groups to survey the area or even help the wounded (red cross).
The Red Crescent doesn't have authority to just go wherever it wants. It's a non-issue unless you can show that Israel denied medical care period, which you can't as IDF and civilian Israeli medical services do.
And denying entry to "human rights groups" - who also have no authority whatsoever, either to enter areas, or to make declarations about what is and what is not a violation of law - being a human rights abuse also boggles the mind. And quite frankly, I don't care if Amnesty International, OxFam, Human Rights Watch, or any of the rest are denied entry by Israel. They are biased anti-Israel propaganda organizations. They swallow whole Palestinian lies and repeat them as unvarnished truth. Amnesty International said that without a shadow of a doubt that there was a massacre in Jenin in 2002 and there was not. They twist international law and simply make their own new standards up in order to say that Israel breaks the law. The twitter feeds of the staff of these organizations are regularly filled with snide anti-Israel remarks whenever the conflict brews up. They are obsessed and one-sided concerning Israel. They participated in the disgraceful, anti-Semitic Durban conference in 2000. There is a reason that the US and Israel simply ignore these organizations. You can link to them all you want but you're never going to convince anyone who supports Israel that they have anything honest and worthwhile to say.
I'm sure that soldiers do do things they shouldn't as happens in every war ever. Israel does punish soldiers that abuse Palestinians and has policies against it; Palestinian policy is to kidnap lost Jews, mutilate them, lynch them, and parade the bodies around. Waiting for the condemnation from "human rights organizations" and yourself, not going to hold my breath though.
On November 19 2012 01:36 Noam wrote: Can't we all just ignore the OP? It is useless and has not been updated at all except for adding a retarded poll about supporting "Palestine" when this is Hamas..
Let's go back to talking about what matters: Hamas still looking for a victory shot and refusing to make progress in the cease fire negotiations. As of today the Iron Dome has intercepted 302 missiles and rockets. Iron Dome only targets projectiles with a confirmed trajectory of hitting a populated area.
What would this conflict look like if 302 more rockets hit our citizens? How many Israelis would be dead? How many innocent Palestinians would die as a result?
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." -Benjamin Netanyahu
it's pretty hard to argue with this quote and use facts to support your position. the same world that demands Palestinian statehood turned (and is turning) a blind eye to the massive persecution and cultural (and sometimes real) genocide against Arab Christians and Jews by Muslim countries. where is the right of return for the millions of Christians that have been driven out of their homes? or the thousands of Jews who have fled Muslim persecution? people who don't study history are driven by the sensationalism of Arab agitprop mascaraing as legitimate news. the sad thing is that the vast majority of the persecution against the Palestinian people comes from other Arabs and Arab countries, but you'll never hear a liberal screaming at Jordan or Egypt to let the refugees in their country.
Of course its true because Israel has everything it wants and Palestine doesnt. Palestine is being slowly crept in by the Israeli settlements and there country is part of a holy Islamic area. Those are some of the reasons they are fighting in the first place. That statement in and of itself is just sort of silly and I remember laughing when I heard it the first time.
Israel doesn't have everything it wants, it wants peace and it can't get any. Palestine, which had multiple chances at statehood, has turned it down every single time. do Jordan and Egypt give a shit? are they being screamed at to let hostile refugees into their country?
when "settlement" is defined as adding an additional room to your house, I kind of stop caring, and it was holy Jewish ground a couple thousand years before Islam existed, so that argument falls flat too. add in the fact that every single Muslim country in the area is guilty of far more persecution and intolerance than Israel ever could engage in, and that the rest of the Arab world is willing to use Palestinians, but not willing to house them, it definitely makes one think about his statement a lot more, and suddenly its not so funny anymore.
Giving it statehood but not giving it any of the territory it wants or used to have isnt really a fair offer. That was the reason the negotiations failed the last time. Its been awhile but negotiations between the two always get close but fall apart over certain areas which both sides consider holy so niether side wants to give up.
there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
You are so bias its disgusting.
Your country exists for two reasons: 1. After Britain invaded Syria they felt bad about the holocaust and gave you a home land. 2. The USA likes you because you give them a base in the middle east.
Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Yeah... that's pretty much the opposite of how things happened. Britain was on the Arab side (trying to limit Jewish immigration, Britain was the main arms supplier for the Arab armies, the best Arab army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, had British officers, and the USA didn't give anything but diplomatic support to Israel until after the Suez War. Israel had to smuggle weapons mostly from Czechoslovakia (and some from France) for the 48 war because no Western country would openly support them with materiel.
I know it's very upsetting to think that it wasn't a racist imperialist conspiracy, but the Jews were on their own. And they won. Cry more about it.
Did I ever say that it was a racist imperialist conspiracy? NO. I'm a Jew and I still admit that Israel only exists because it has things that benefit more powerful countries. You say that they weren't openly supported. They weren't OPENLY supported. Thats why even to this day WW2 american made m16s are commonly found in Israel...... thousands of them.... look it up, because they supported them in secrecy. My grandfather has an american made m16 in his house in Israel...
Britain supported both sides to make as much money as possible. Kind of like America before they entered WW2. How is that the opposite of how things happened? Britain gave land that was formerly part of Syria to Israel. That is an undisputed fact.....
On November 19 2012 02:54 FreedomMurder wrote: Israel is lucky to exist. Why would Egypt or Jordan give a fuck when it isn't their problem. Through the 2nd world war palestinian land and syrian land became israeli land, because the white leaders liked the idea of having a permanent foot hold in the middle east. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EXIST. So maybe israel should have some sympathy for palestine because if Israel didn't have what the western leaders wanted they wouldn't exist.....
Nope. Actually, Israel survived through its early years mostly by fighting alone, since the western leaders had bigger fish to fry and mostly didn't give a shit about this area of the world. France and the United Kingdom were too busy losing their colonies, the USA didn't care at all (to the point of taking sides with Egypt during the Suez crisis by forcing Israel to withdraw from the Sinai peninsula), the rest of Europe was in a reconstruction phase.
This whole scenario you describe is a mere fantasy (or a crude falsehood).
The Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) announced, Sunday, that 80 truckloads of medical equipment and food were transferred into Gaza at the Kerem Shalom and Erez commercial crossings, in spite of the security threat facing the staff. A COGAT statement said, "The goods transferred via Kerem Shalom included 16 truckloads of medical equipment, specifically vital equipment, such as medicines, anesthetics and disposable medical equipment and 64 truckloads of food. At Erez terminal, 35 diplomatic representatives and international organization employees exited Gaza."
The exit of 26 patients and their escorts into Israel was also coordinated in order to allow them to receive medical treatment. The statment said, "The opening of the crossings was facilitated by the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, in conjunction with senior Palestinian Authority officials and members of the international community."
On November 19 2012 03:12 CrimsonLotus wrote: Hamas are war criminals, the IDF are war criminals too.This conflict will end when both arabs and israelis nuke each other out of the map. And somehow I feel the world would be a safer and more peaceful place after that.
EPT
