On November 19 2012 03:36 SlashCare wrote: Why can´t they just set aside their differnces. That would be much better for the people in both countries.
You seem confused, this is between a country, Israel, to a terrorism organization, Hamas, not a country. If it was a war between countries it would have been much simpler.
On November 19 2012 02:47 sc2superfan101 wrote: [quote] there is a saying that I think applies here: "Possession is 9/10s of the law."
the same people who rejected what they now claim to want (pre-1967 borders), are whining because the country they have been hostile to for over 50 years is wary about giving them a "fair offer"? and yet again, there is no calls for Jordan or Egypt to step up and take on some refugees. no, it's all about kicking Jews out of their homes to replace them with Palestinians who haven't lived there for 60 years.
it was British land and now it's Israeli land, and the world needs to get used to that.
Yes this is your holy land but you cant have it just accept it isnt really going to cause peace. If you expect there to be peace with that position then you are delusing yourself because they will still be fighting in 100 years if thats position. The refusal of either side to give is the biggest roadblock to peace as a whole and if Israel truly wants peace they are going to have to give a little just as Palestine is going to have to give a little.
what are you not getting about the fact that the majority of the other side doesn't want Palestinian statehood? they want the Jews driven into the sea and out of the Middle East entirely. sure, they use the idea of statehood to get people like you to sympathize with them, but underneath all that benevolence is a hard core of anti-Semitic, radical Muslims who will blow themselves up if it ensures a couple of dead Jews. if statehood was the actual goal, then why have the Palestinians done literally everything they can to drive Israel further and further away? why do they suddenly want what they scornfully rejected years ago?
and most importantly, why do they respond with even more aggression whenever Israel gives them anything? the only possible explanation is that for most of them, it isn't about statehood or refugees, it's about the upstart Jewish country that planted itself right in the middle of their holy land. it's about 60 years of a vastly outnumbered Israel winning every time despite all the rhetoric about Allah being on the Muslim's side. I think there can, and will, be peace. eventually. but it will only come once the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world recognizes, without hesitation or quibbling, that Israel has the right to exist, defend itself, and remain a homeland and haven for the world's Jewry. if that happened, then the Palestinians would have a country of their own in five years. until it happens, there will be an ever-growing number of dead civilians on both sides.
Over the past 10-12 years peace between the two went from within grasp to a dream. Are you really going to argue that all of that is Palestines fault and Israel is just innocent of the regression that is the peace process. Israel's style has been to flex it muscles because it isnt exactly a big country and it is surrounded by enemies so it does that in order to keep itself safe but in so doing it does more to create its own enemies.
Hamas is well run organization that knows how to get public support. There basic strategy is to use Israel's own aggressive tendancies against them. Hamas gives thing to the people to foster support and then when Israel drops bombs on them and kills civilians in processlike they did at the start of this whole thing they can point out that Israel doesnt care how many Palestineans they kill or about them at all and that Hamas will fight to protect them.
Its like I said earlier in the thread if you want people to support your right to exist then you cant have them living in fear of you bombing them everyday. Both Israel and Palestine are stuck being afraid and that fear is a big detriment to peace.
when in the history of Israel has there been a completely unprovoked attack from Israel against Palestinians?
the Palestinian's would have nothing to fear if they didn't elect groups like Hamas. Israel would be obliterated without the IDF. big fucking difference in the fear that is being felt here.
I wanna know what exactly killing that Hamas leader accomplished besides killing a bunch of civilians. Yes, he was an enemy of Israel but was he really worth killing a bunch of civilians to get to. When you decide that killing civilians is acceptable the civilans of those countries really dont take that well.
well, first of all, a dead terrorist is a terrorist that can't hurt you, so they solved that problem pretty neatly.
I didn't think they had killed civilians in that strike?
According to reports that airstrike killed 5 others including a baby and a 7 year old as well as injuring 40 others.
On November 19 2012 02:56 Ren91 wrote: Anyway that's untrue, as Hamas have been elected by the people, generally people want to fight back after their lands, livelihoods and children have been taken from them.
Hamas has been elected by the people in January 2006 for a period of 4 years. Since then, they keep on going. Does this sound like a democratic system? They were elected after Israel removed it's soldiers from Gaza and deported all the Jews from there, that is, after they got back the land of Gaza.
they didnt get gaza back. gaza is still under siege. its military occupation is still a issue of depute. it is still under military emposed blockade. Gaza is not a free land.
Why should we open the borders if gaza's government wants us dead and considers us their enemy? As i said there was no blockade before the second intifada. Edit: Also, why dont Egypt open their borders then?
On November 19 2012 02:56 Ren91 wrote: Anyway that's untrue, as Hamas have been elected by the people, generally people want to fight back after their lands, livelihoods and children have been taken from them.
Hamas has been elected by the people in January 2006 for a period of 4 years. Since then, they keep on going. Does this sound like a democratic system? They were elected after Israel removed it's soldiers from Gaza and deported all the Jews from there, that is, after they got back the land of Gaza.
they didnt get gaza back. gaza is still under siege. its military occupation is still a issue of depute. it is still under military emposed blockade. Gaza is not a free land.
Why should we open the borders if gaza's government wants us dead and considers us their enemy? As i said there was no blockade before the second intifada.
Don't even try to debate with someone like that. He is incapable of looking at the situation critically and instead will just keep repeating words he's seen in the news, like "blockade" and "gaza".
On November 19 2012 01:59 Grettin wrote: There would also be way less deaths if your enemy would have the same defense-equipment as you do.
What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
On November 19 2012 02:01 Noam wrote: [quote] What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
Read again what i said, they do feel sadness, i said its justified as its for the cause (how else could cast led be a victory for them?) Still waiting for your response as why should Israel open the borders to a hostile government and not Egypt?
On November 19 2012 02:01 Noam wrote: [quote] What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
What the heck is the point of posting this? Am I suppose to tear up at the story of a suicide bombers family grieving over their dead son and barely avoiding an emotional breakdown knowing that their son went to heaven? The result of a necessity?
On November 19 2012 02:01 Noam wrote: [quote] What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
Martyrdom is one of the most evil concepts in human history.
The sacrifice of oneself, and (more often) others, for a cause, is the root of much evil in this world.
It is the ultimate insanity, when one has so completely lost touch with reality, that they will even destroy themselves for some perverted ideology that demands it.
Human sacrifice, just dressed up in fancier clothes.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
Martyrdom is one of the most evil concepts in human history.
The sacrifice of oneself, and (more often) others, for a cause, is the root of much evil in this world.
It is the ultimate insanity, when one has so completely lost touch with reality, that they will even destroy themselves for some perverted ideology that demands it.
Human sacrifice, just dressed up in fancier clothes.
On November 19 2012 02:18 Goozen wrote: [quote] Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
Martyrdom is one of the most evil concepts in human history.
The sacrifice of oneself, and (more often) others, for a cause, is the root of much evil in this world.
It is the ultimate insanity, when one has so completely lost touch with reality, that they will even destroy themselves for some perverted ideology that demands it.
Human sacrifice, just dressed up in fancier clothes.
completely agreed.
TBH it's really hard to follow your stance on this issue. You seem to agree with those opposing you but still argue against them at the same time.
It seems the same things are being discussed over and over. Lets try and discussion another topic that is not getting as much attention. The bid for Palestine to hold a seat in the UN, I don't think this is being discussed enough. It would be interesting to hear from both sides on this because it seems to me if peace were to happen Palestine needs a seat in the UN.
On November 19 2012 04:37 Shelke14 wrote: It seems the same things are being discussed over and over. Lets try and discussion another topic that is not getting as much attention. The bid for Palestine to hold a seat in the UN, I don't think this is being discussed enough. It would be interesting to hear from both sides on this because it seems to me if peace were to happen Palestine needs a seat in the UN.
Because that would be a different thread, not this one?
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
Martyrdom is one of the most evil concepts in human history.
The sacrifice of oneself, and (more often) others, for a cause, is the root of much evil in this world.
It is the ultimate insanity, when one has so completely lost touch with reality, that they will even destroy themselves for some perverted ideology that demands it.
Human sacrifice, just dressed up in fancier clothes.
Destroying oneself is not martyrdom. Its suicide. And when you kill others doings it, its just suicidal murder.
Big different between martyrs and suicidal murderers. Ultimately though this all comes down to what kind of semantics tickle your fancy.
Calling martyrdom evil is an insult to anyone who has ever died legitimately protecting their country whether they be American British Arab Israeli or whatever..
why do Israel keep expanding their settlements in the West Bank after they pulled out of the Gaza Strip a few years ago..? I'm pretty sure most people in the international community consider these settlements and increase of Jewish settlements in the West Bank as illegal.
On November 19 2012 02:01 Noam wrote: [quote] What? Are you trying to be funny?
If Hamas was shooting at our civilians and our air force could not destroy their missiles and ammunition with air strikes, we would be sending in ground forces to do the job.
That would mean a lot more deaths for their side.
I don't see why i or anyone would want to be funny when it comes to this. I just, before you commented, added my second thoughts to my previous post. And you are right about what you said, when it would come to ground attacks and such, but i wasn't considering what would happen if you add infantry to this.
What i was trying to say was something like, if both had Iron Dome -like system to defend theirselves and neither one would have high-tech military equipment like Israel has (missiles), then the situation would be as stated. But since this isn't the case.. well you can see how it's working out. People in Gaza are suffering because of IDF's direct hits and Israelis are pretty safe from Hamas's rockets.
Perhaps then they shouldn't be supporting their government while they are firing rockets?
As Israel shouldn't support their government while they're bombing hospitals? I don't see how pointing the finger at one civilian population for the actions of the government equates but not the other. Either everyone's to blame, or they're all innocent shoved into this war by dictator like factions but there is not "one side is this and the other is this".
Israel aims for terrorists and civilians get hurt by accident Hamas aims for civilians and civilians get hurt Clearly this is the exact same thing, without mentioning that we dont store ammunition in or fire from homes, hospitals, schools, places of worship etc.
You're making a hard argument because it doesn't take into account the shells being used are white phosphorous on said hospitals.
So Israel aims for terrorists, ends up killing more civilians than the faction aimed at killing civilians? So your argument is that Israel's so good they can kill more terrorists completing their objective AND kill more civilians than Hamas ever dreamed of doing while having some of the most technologically equipped killing machines ever created on earth.
Sound argument to try and equate the IDF as something better.
We had the morals and white phosphors debate several pages back, take a look. You also ignore that hamas makes full use of the population to shield itself while Israel dosnt, so of course a lot more Palestinians will die. Like i have said dozens of times its a win/win for them, 1)Israel cant target them as they use population to shield themselves. 2)civilians dies (going to heaven as martyrs) and Israel gets bad PR.
Only when you are extremely cynical. Hamas members are living in Gaza and they are grieving over lost friends and families as well, surely it's not win/win for them when more people are killed and the rhetoric of human shields misses the reality of the situation in Gaza (look one page back).
Hamas are zealously religious, and im sure they are sad when familiy members die, they dont mind as its for the cause, remember this group has no problem using suicide bombers. If Hamas wanted there could be a cease fire right now, but they dont. They even claimed that "cast led" was a victory for them....
I'm sorry but this is a really dehuminazing look at even military branch of hamas. To assume/accept/deduct that people do not feel sadness for their loss, or mourne.
I'm a turk and not a muslim but, I live in a islamic country. concept of sehit(shadid as it is pronounced in arabic)(martydoom in islam) is a very common concept in turkey, I'm very well familiar with the idea. it is not something to chase, but result of a neccesitty. there is no just of just blowing yourself up to go to heaven. it is not practiced like that. it is not celebrated with joy, it is honored. their loss going to haven is only something that eases the pain. muslims are not a koolaid cult.
On November 19 2012 04:37 Shelke14 wrote: It seems the same things are being discussed over and over. Lets try and discussion another topic that is not getting as much attention. The bid for Palestine to hold a seat in the UN, I don't think this is being discussed enough. It would be interesting to hear from both sides on this because it seems to me if peace were to happen Palestine needs a seat in the UN.
Because that would be a different thread, not this one?
Well considering this thread has turned into a overall discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict I don't see why my question would be moved to another thread.
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