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On November 19 2012 05:03 Shelke14 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 04:38 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 04:37 Shelke14 wrote: It seems the same things are being discussed over and over. Lets try and discussion another topic that is not getting as much attention. The bid for Palestine to hold a seat in the UN, I don't think this is being discussed enough. It would be interesting to hear from both sides on this because it seems to me if peace were to happen Palestine needs a seat in the UN. Because that would be a different thread, not this one? Well considering this thread has turned into a overall discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict I don't see why my question would be moved to another thread. well there is a difference, those are micro/macro issues while this is quite unrelated. Also this thread has stayed more or less focused so no reason to force it OT.
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On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is?
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On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Dont bother responding to people like these, just wait for the mods.
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On November 19 2012 05:08 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Dont bother responding to people like these, just wait for the mods.
For what? Speaking the truth? You're in SOMEONE ELSE's house.
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On November 19 2012 03:24 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 03:12 CrimsonLotus wrote: Hamas are war criminals, the IDF are war criminals too.This conflict will end when both arabs and israelis nuke each other out of the map. And somehow I feel the world would be a safer and more peaceful place after that. Why don't we nuke you instead you A-hole?
Wowowow mate.
He's actually not so wrong. Of course nobody wants that to happen, but quintessential, he is right, so there's no need for insults.
Look. We (or lets just take me), or better i, know that israelis live in fear of hamas-rockets (i actually think i heared the Iron Shield or whatsitcalled when i was on skype with a friend, maybe i ask him next time). Palestinians live in fear of IDF-rockets. And actually, most of the rest of the world fears a conflict with worldwide consequences. And you really can't blame anyone. Let's put all the bullshit aside, and let's be frank for just two minutes here.
The world would be a better place without the hamas. That's a given. The world also would be a better place without people that threatens to (let me quote) "We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.". How can you actually insult someone who says "yeah, world would be better without the country that threatens to take the world with them if they face annihilation"? That's borderline stupid. Never forget, that "Option Samson" was created by Israel, not Hamas. So i can understand every dude who says "the world would be a safer and more peaceful place without Israel and Palestine". I would even go further to say "the world would be alot safer and more peaceful if we get rid of any religion asap".
So, yeah. There you have it. Don't act like there is no reason why Israel is considered one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Maybe it does not feel good if you see people writing this, i'm sure. But Israel is nothing but trouble at the moment. Mainly for Palestine and the other countries down there (and i really don't care about that) - but as soon as you threaten the whole world with "the ultimate justice", don't wonder if people start to question you.
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On November 19 2012 04:51 calderon wrote: why do Israel keep expanding their settlements in the West Bank after they pulled out of the Gaza Strip a few years ago..? I'm pretty sure most people in the international community consider these settlements and increase of Jewish settlements in the West Bank as illegal.
Probably illegal, but I dare any nation other than Palestine to have the balls to stop it. Isreal is the regional superpower, and could stomp over the entire Middle East if required, they are just waiting for a reason (Hi nuclear Iran).
That and any other international power will only lose rather than gain by fighting with Isreal (and possibly USA). Only a total fool would risk so much for "justice".
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On November 19 2012 03:43 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 03:36 SlashCare wrote: Why can´t they just set aside their differnces. That would be much better for the people in both countries. You seem confused, this is between a country, Israel, to a terrorism organization, Hamas, not a country. If it was a war between countries it would have been much simpler.
You have got things mixed there. Israel was founded through terrorist actions, I see that being completely left out. So if we follow what you say, then Hamas turning itself into a Gaza-country will just abolish all terrorist actions they've done?
Nice reasoning you got there mate.
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On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is?
Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything.
Also, a home is an abstract idea, to the British settlers of North America, Canada / USA is their home now, not Britain. They have no right to claim land on an abstract idea of where you belong. The Caucasian US population of a specific Christian religious affliation can't invade Britain and drive them out simply between there are immigrant populations in Britain and that they once belonged there. The "organic bond" between people and land is also in staunch opposition of enlightenment era Jewish values from the early 20th century.
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lol. Tried to take someone else's land, lost some of yours as a result. You sad?
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On November 19 2012 05:14 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 03:24 moskonia wrote:On November 19 2012 03:12 CrimsonLotus wrote: Hamas are war criminals, the IDF are war criminals too.This conflict will end when both arabs and israelis nuke each other out of the map. And somehow I feel the world would be a safer and more peaceful place after that. Why don't we nuke you instead you A-hole? Wowowow mate. He's actually not so wrong. Of course nobody wants that to happen, but quintessential, he is right, so there's no need for insults. Look. We (or lets just take me), or better i, know that israelis live in fear of hamas-rockets. Palestinians live in fear of IDF-rockets. And actually, most of the rest of the world fears a conflict with worldwide consequences. And you really can't blame anyone. Let's put all the bullshit aside, and let's be frank for just two minutes here. The world would be a better place without the hamas. That's a given. The world also would be a better place without people that threatens to (let me quote) "We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.". How can you actually insult someone who says "yeah, world would be better without the country that threatens to take the world with them if they face annihilation"? That's borderline stupid. Never forget, that "Option Samson" was created by Israel, not Hamas. So i can understand every dude who says "the world would be a safer and more peaceful place without Israel and Palestine". I would even go further to say "the world would be alot safer and more peaceful if we get rid of any religion asap". So, yeah. There you have it. Don't act like there is no reason why Israel is considered one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Maybe it does not feel good if you see people writing this, i'm sure. But Israel is nothing but trouble at the moment. Mainly for Palestine and the other countries down there (and i really don't care about that) - but as soon as you threaten the whole world with "the ultimate justice", don't wonder if people start to question you. Ah, the Samson option, one of the biggest pieces of BS on the net that people quote without having a clue... Look at the Wiki, there is no official source or any reason for Israel to do it. The closest the whole concept comes to the truth is the reasons Israel has nukes to begin with and that is M.A.D.
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On November 19 2012 05:21 Pureh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 03:43 moskonia wrote:On November 19 2012 03:36 SlashCare wrote: Why can´t they just set aside their differnces. That would be much better for the people in both countries. You seem confused, this is between a country, Israel, to a terrorism organization, Hamas, not a country. If it was a war between countries it would have been much simpler. You have got things mixed there. Israel was founded through terrorist actions, I see that being completely left out. So if we follow what you say, then Hamas turning itself into a Gaza-country will just abolish all terrorist actions they've done? Nice reasoning you got there mate.
Its actually not only hamas. There are alot of other terroristic "organisations" shooting rockets, even if you somehow could dismantle hamas for good, that won't stop the rockets. Maybe it will be a little less, but it won't stop.
At least i guess, would've need to read up on that again.
Ah, the Samson option, one of the biggest pieces of BS on the net that people quote without having a clue... Look at the Wiki, there is no official source or any reason for Israel to do it. The closest the whole concept comes to the truth is the reasons Israel has nukes to begin with and that is M.A.D.
Actually, i had my quotes directly from wiki, but thank you. I also don't know what M.A.D. means, other than "mad", which i would describe as dead on the money. Guess you need to tell me what it means.
"The Samson Option is Israel's alleged deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well.[1] The phrase also has been used more generally to describe Israel's nuclear program."
I guess you are familiar with the wiki, so i don't need to quote all of it. There are israeli (or maybe jewish, i can't tell) extremists out there. The fear of a nuclear war "thanks" to israel is not irrational.
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On November 19 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything.
not that it matters. you cant just say "hey some of my "ancestors" lived there xxxx years ago, so gtfo its my land!".
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On November 19 2012 05:21 Pureh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 03:43 moskonia wrote:On November 19 2012 03:36 SlashCare wrote: Why can´t they just set aside their differnces. That would be much better for the people in both countries. You seem confused, this is between a country, Israel, to a terrorism organization, Hamas, not a country. If it was a war between countries it would have been much simpler. You have got things mixed there. Israel was founded through terrorist actions, I see that being completely left out. So if we follow what you say, then Hamas turning itself into a Gaza-country will just abolish all terrorist actions they've done? Nice reasoning you got there mate.
Alternate history is cool.
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On November 19 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything. Also, a home is an abstract idea, to the British settlers of North America, Canada / USA is their home now, not Britain. They have no right to claim land on an abstract idea of where you belong. The "organic bond" between people and land is also in staunch opposition of enlightenment era Jewish values from the early 20th century. Wow, i hope this is just ignorance but here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Israel But the historical claim is only a fraction of the whole claim.
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On November 19 2012 05:24 Feartheguru wrote:lol. Tried to take someone else's land, lost some of yours as a result. You sad?
lol. The last time I checked it was Israel who made the preemptive strike in the six day war.
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On November 19 2012 05:27 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything. Also, a home is an abstract idea, to the British settlers of North America, Canada / USA is their home now, not Britain. They have no right to claim land on an abstract idea of where you belong. The "organic bond" between people and land is also in staunch opposition of enlightenment era Jewish values from the early 20th century. Wow, i hope this is just ignorance but here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_IsraelBut the historical claim is only a fraction of the whole claim.
Ok should American Indians now be given executive control over USA?
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On November 19 2012 05:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything. not that it matters. you cant just say "hey some of my "ancestors" lived there xxxx years ago, so gtfo its my land!". No, thats the result of Israel been attacked and having the bad habit of winning all those wars giving it legitimacy.
On November 19 2012 05:28 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:27 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 05:23 Caihead wrote:On November 19 2012 05:08 bonse wrote:On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you) But they are finally home... You know what home is? Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything. Also, a home is an abstract idea, to the British settlers of North America, Canada / USA is their home now, not Britain. They have no right to claim land on an abstract idea of where you belong. The "organic bond" between people and land is also in staunch opposition of enlightenment era Jewish values from the early 20th century. Wow, i hope this is just ignorance but here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_IsraelBut the historical claim is only a fraction of the whole claim. So the US should have control because they fought for it then? Hey, that rings a bell perhaps WE fought for it and won also? Anyway im done with you there is literally mountains of archaeological evidence that prove Jewish existence and you never heard of it or believed it. Hell, if you look at the Arch of Titus in rome you can see them carrying relics from the temple.
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Israeli Strike Kills at Least 11, Including ChildrenBy JODI RUDOREN and FARES AKRAM 11:23 AM ET The airstrike, which Israel’s military said was meant to kill a Palestinian militant, was the deadliest operation to date and would no doubt weigh on negotiations for a possible cease-fire. + Show Spoiler [full text] + GAZA CITY — Israeli forces killed at least 11 people, including several children, in a single airstrike that destroyed a home here on Sunday, as Israel pressed its bombardment of the Gaza Strip for a fifth day, deploying warplanes and naval vessels to pummel the coastal enclave.
An Israeli family took cover during a rocket attack near the town of Ashdod in southern Israel. The airstrike, which the Israeli military said was meant to kill a Palestinian militant involved in the recent rocket attacks, was the deadliest operation to date and would no doubt weigh on negotiations for a possible cease-fire. Among the dead were five women and four small children, The Associated Press reported, citing a Palestinian health official.
Two media offices were also hit on Sunday, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel warned of a “significant” expansion in the onslaught, which has already killed over 50 people, many of them civilians.
Speaking on Sunday from Bangkok, President Obama condemned missile attacks by Palestinian fighters in Gaza and defended Israel’s right to protect itself.
“There’s no country on earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders,” Mr. Obama said in his first public comments since the violence broke out. “We are fully supportive of Israel’s right to defend itself.”
The president also said that efforts were under way to address Israel’s security concerns and end the violence. “We’re going to have to see what kind of progress we can make in the next 24, 36, 48 hours,” Mr. Obama said.
Even as the diplomacy intensified on Sunday, the attacks continued in Gaza and Israel.
Mr. Netanyahu made his warning as militants in Gaza aimed at least one rocket at Tel Aviv, a day after Israeli forces broadened the attack beyond military targets, bombing centers of government infrastructure in Gaza, including the four-story headquarters of the Hamas prime minister.
“We are exacting a heavy price from Hamas and the terrorist organizations, and the Israel Defense Forces are prepared for a significant expansion of the operation,” Mr. Netanyahu told his cabinet at its routine Sunday meeting, referring directly to the of thousands of reservists who have been called up and the massing of armor on the Gaza border that many analysts have interpreted as preparations for a possible invasion.
“I appreciate the rapid and impressive mobilization of the reservists who have come from all over the country and turned out for the mission at hand,” Mr. Netanyahu said. “Reservist and conscript soldiers are ready for any order they might receive.”
His remarks were reported shortly after a battery of Israel’s Iron Dome defense shield, hastily deployed near Tel Aviv on Saturday in response to the threat of longer-range rockets, intercepted at least one aimed at the city on Sunday, Israeli officials said. It was the latest of several salvos that have illustrated Hamas’s ability to extend the reach of its rocket attacks.
Since Wednesday, when the escalation of the conflict began, Iron Dome has knocked 245 rockets out of the sky, the military said Saturday, while 500 have struck Israel.
The American-financed system is designed to intercept only rockets streaking toward towns and cities and to ignore those likely to strike open ground. But on Sunday a rocket fired from Gaza plowed through the roof of an apartment building in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon. There were no immediate reports of casualties there.
In Gaza City, the crash of explosions pierced the quiet several times throughout the early morning.
Before the latest deadly strike involving civilians on Sunday, Hamas health officials had said the Palestinian death toll had risen to 53. One of the latest victims was a 52-year-old woman whose house in the eastern part of Gaza City was bombed around lunchtime.
A few hours earlier, a Hamas militant was killed and seven people were wounded in an attack on the Beach Refugee Camp, where Ismail Haniya, the Hamas prime minister, has a home. Those killed on Sunday included three children ages 1 through 5, the health officials said.
In Israel, 3 civilians have died and 63 have been injured. Four soldiers were wounded on Saturday.
The onslaught continued despite talks in Cairo that President Mohamed Morsi of Egypt said Saturday night could soon result in a cease-fire. Mr. Netanyahu said he would consider a comprehensive cease-fire if the launchings from Gaza stopped.
The attack on Mr. Haniya’s office, one of several on government installations, came a day after he hosted his Egyptian counterpart in the same building, a sign of Hamas’s new legitimacy in a radically redrawn Arab world.
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That stature was underscored Saturday by a visit to Gaza from the Tunisian foreign minister and trips to Cairo by two Hamas allies, the prime minister of Turkey and the crown prince of Qatar, for talks with the Egyptian president and the chairman of Hamas on a possible cease-fire.
But Mark Regev, a spokesman for Mr. Netanyahu, denied reports on Saturday that a truce was imminent.
Mr. Obama said Sunday that he had spoken several times with Mr. Netanyahu, Mr. Morsi and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey in hopes of finding a way to address Israel’s security concerns without further ramping up military operations.
“We are actively working with all the parties in the region to see if we can end those missiles being fired without further escalation of violence in the region,” he said.
It was unclear whether the deal under discussion in Cairo would solely suspend the fighting or include other issues. Hamas — which won elections in Gaza in 2006 and took full control in 2007 but is considered a terrorist organization by Israel and the United States — wants to turn its Rafah crossing with Egypt into a free-trade zone and seeks Israel’s withdrawal from the 1,000-foot buffer it patrols on Gaza’s northern and eastern borders.
Mr. Netanyahu has also spoken with the leaders of Britain, Germany, Italy, Greece, Poland, Portugal, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, according to a statement from his office. On Sunday, he said he appreciated the “understanding they are displaying for Israel’s right to defend itself.”
Some European leaders seemed to be counseling restraint as much as offering support.
The French news media reported that the foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, was heading to Israel to seek a cease-fire, and William Hague, his British counterpart, cautioned that an Israeli invasion of Gaza “would lose Israel a lot of the international support and sympathy they have” and make it “much more difficult to restrict and avoid civilian casualties.”
The conflict, meanwhile, showed no sign of abating.
Palestinian news agencies reported that two children were killed in a predawn strike on Sunday in Beit Lahiya in northern Gaza. The Israeli military said it had “targeted dozens of underground launchers” overnight and also hit what it called a Hamas training base and command center. The Israeli Navy “targeted terror sites on the northern Gaza shore line,” the statement said, in repeated rounds of missiles.
Among the buildings that Israel hit overnight were two containing the offices of local news media outlets.
Salama Marouf of the Hamas media office condemned what he called an “immoral massacre against the media” and called the attack a confession by Israel “that it has lost the media battle.”
Seven journalists were injured in the first attack, around 1:40 a.m., in the Shawa and Hossari Building in downtown Gaza City. It houses two local radio stations — one run by the militant Islamic Jihad — and the offices of the Ma’an Palestinian news agency as well as the German broadcaster ARD.
One of the journalists injured on Sunday, Khader Zahar of the Beirut-based Al Quds satellite channel, was said to have lost a leg in the explosion, which hit its 11th-floor studio.
The Israeli military referred to the two sites as “Hamas operational communication sites that were identified by precise intelligence.”
“In order to minimize the damage to noninvolved persons, the I.D.F. only targeted the communication devices which were located on the roof of the building, and not the operations room of Hamas that is located on one of the floors,” the military said.
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“The second site was targeted at approximately 06:50 a.m. and was also part of Hamas’s operational communications that was deliberately located on the roof of the building, in which several international media bureaus reside,” the military said in a statement.
Ayman Amar, a spokesman for the Al Quds television, said seven camera operators and editors were resting on couches in their offices around 1:30 a.m. when a missile fired from an Israeli helicopter ripped through the roof. They fled, and three more bombs dropped around 10 minutes later, Mr. Amar said.
Al Quds, an independent channel with 50 employees in the Gaza Strip, has had offices in the building since 2007, and on its top floor since 2011. Since the conflict escalated, journalists have been working around the clock and catching naps in the office. Some of its employees were back out on the streets on Sunday, Mr. Amar said, and others were trying to clear the wreckage from the five-room editing studio.
“We never expected that it would hit us,” he added. “So far we don’t know why; there are no reasons. We will not stop. It is our duty toward our cause to support the Palestinian people.”
Later, a missile that was dropped from an Apache helicopter hit the top of the 15-story Al Shoruq Building, which is also downtown, witnesses said.
The target was the Hamas channel that broadcasts locally, Al Aqsa, but the building also contains offices of the Al Arabiya television network and the Middle East Broadcast Center, which runs it, as well as the live studio of an Iranian television station and two production companies — the Gaza Media Center and Mayadeen — that provide services for Fox News, Sky News, CBS and Al Jazeera.
No one was injured in that attack. Witnesses said that everyone in the building fled after a warning missile was fired in the stairwell, two minutes before the attack on the roof.
The Foreign Press Association in Jerusalem said it was “concerned” by the attacks, recalling a United Nations ruling that “journalists, media professionals and associated personnel engaged in dangerous professional missions in areas of armed conflict shall be considered civilians, to be respected and protected as such.”
The ability to gain access to and influence news media coverage is critical to both sides seeking to promote their rival claims and versions of the events and arguments underpinning the conflict, recalling the 2008-9 winter invasion of Gaza that brought international condemnation of Israel.
The news media war took a new turn on Sunday when the Israeli military intercepted and took over signals from two local radio stations — Al Aqsa and Al Quds — to broadcast a warning to Gaza residents: “We recommend that you stay away from the places of terrorists and the infrastructure of Hamas.”
It continued: “Hamas is playing with fire and putting you at risk.”
Israel’s Foreign Ministry said on Saturday that 22 foreign journalists were prevented by Hamas from leaving the Gaza Strip.
First line is source.
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So, assuming Israel finishes the job and inglobates Palestine after some sort of capitulation (expressed by an underground group -the hamas- lol) : Where you gonna put all those palestinians? Think you can all just coexist peacefully as if nothing happened? It isn't a coincidence that lots of wars ended up with genocide attempts or some sort of super oppressive regime. The US army can withdraw from the middle east after beating the governing powers, you can't just withdraw from the zone in front of your own home.
Either both accept things as they are or one finishes the job fast, anything else just doesn't solve a thing. Yeah, the situation sucks for both parties, but at least Israel has defense systems against rockets.
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