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I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists.
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On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists.
The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad).
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If Israel behaved for a second, Hamas wouldn't exist. Hamas only have power because they stand up against Israel. I'm not saying Israel is worse than Hamas, or Iran, or whatever, but it's not a question of who's the biggest crook. The problem with Israel is that they're behaving like spoiled brats, but they are only doing it because USA allows it. Israel and Palestine was supposed to be on equal terms, but whatever happened to that?
USA needs to stop blindly supporting Israel, and take more consideration to the palestinians. If they can't have a neutral role, they need to pull back their support and let someone else try.
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On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad).
Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism.
Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism.
(palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider)
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On November 15 2012 20:47 hooahah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 20:05 NesquiKGG wrote:
Israel are good at telling stories about getting bombed and losing citizens .. but are they actually true? some of them might be but its not compareable to what happened to Gaza when Israel killed dozen of innocent people and call it "War" and then apologies at Davos.... YouTube itself has like thousends of Videos where Isreal soldiers threaten, kill or abuse Palastine Womens, Children and Old People... did you hear anything about a palastine man, chil or women who threaten, abused or killed a jew or isreal people?... Hamas is evil .. but this doesnt give anyone the right to kill so many innocent people... and you people defending isreal should aks yourself if you're not biased and blinded or manipulated by some fake news... :/ I rly dont know how we people gonna get a long if there are still morons killing innocent people and still getting support from their country men.... I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. On November 15 2012 20:35 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:29 Passion wrote:
Dude you lot killed so many more Palestinians, you're denying their right to their ancestral lands in which they've lived long before the UK was pressured into giving it to the Jews, you're pretty much putting an entire people in a freaking concentration camp. Ancestral land? Are we a bunch of savages? Murdering people over land, honestly, get in the 21st century, please. These people are condemming themselvse, and their children, to a lifetime of suffering, over land? What land? The vast majority of the Palestinians has never even seen "their" land, so what makes it theirs? Because a bunch of ancestors lived there? I don't see you volunteering to give our land back to the Roman empire. Stop this barbaric tribalism. It's bad enough to hear it at all, but to have someone with internet buy into such a primitive mindset is idiotic. Palestinian freedom fighters hiding? You're throwing the entire USA modern arsenal on their wives, their kids, their houses. They have no way to resist and no where to hide. Stop acting like a freaking hypocrite and start apologising for this genocide. Hamas is well known to integrate its military assets in civillian regions. If they park a tank or a rocket installation right next to a hospital, what Israel to do? Not fire back? They might as well surrender if they gave in to such repugnant moral blackmail. Israel tries to avoid civillian casualites, Hamas tries to ramp up the casualties so they can be used for propaganda. Quickly from Wikipedia: 7978 Palestinian fatalities, of which 1620 children, versus 1503 Israeli dead of which 142 children. You dare call that a genocide? And more than ten times the number of under aged fatalities on the Palestine side clearly shows how hard Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties. You're such a bright guy. As someone who has served in the IDF during Cast Lead, you really have no idea how hard Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties. Think about it - don't you find it odd that despite having a massive arsenal, and firing into a really dense population, the casualties are relatively low? just look north to Syria to see how much death there is when the army doesn't give a fuck about casualties.
the idf seemed to have no issue targeting a single, small vehicle in this attack.
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On November 15 2012 21:26 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad). Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism. Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism. (palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider)
And Hamas is notorious for targeting civilians, with both suicide bombers and rockets. Condemn Israel's blockade and settlement policies all you want, but there is simply no excuse for targeting civilians.
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On November 15 2012 20:47 hooahah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 20:05 NesquiKGG wrote:
Israel are good at telling stories about getting bombed and losing citizens .. but are they actually true? some of them might be but its not compareable to what happened to Gaza when Israel killed dozen of innocent people and call it "War" and then apologies at Davos.... YouTube itself has like thousends of Videos where Isreal soldiers threaten, kill or abuse Palastine Womens, Children and Old People... did you hear anything about a palastine man, chil or women who threaten, abused or killed a jew or isreal people?... Hamas is evil .. but this doesnt give anyone the right to kill so many innocent people... and you people defending isreal should aks yourself if you're not biased and blinded or manipulated by some fake news... :/ I rly dont know how we people gonna get a long if there are still morons killing innocent people and still getting support from their country men.... I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. On November 15 2012 20:35 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:29 Passion wrote:
Dude you lot killed so many more Palestinians, you're denying their right to their ancestral lands in which they've lived long before the UK was pressured into giving it to the Jews, you're pretty much putting an entire people in a freaking concentration camp. Ancestral land? Are we a bunch of savages? Murdering people over land, honestly, get in the 21st century, please. These people are condemming themselvse, and their children, to a lifetime of suffering, over land? What land? The vast majority of the Palestinians has never even seen "their" land, so what makes it theirs? Because a bunch of ancestors lived there? I don't see you volunteering to give our land back to the Roman empire. Stop this barbaric tribalism. It's bad enough to hear it at all, but to have someone with internet buy into such a primitive mindset is idiotic. Palestinian freedom fighters hiding? You're throwing the entire USA modern arsenal on their wives, their kids, their houses. They have no way to resist and no where to hide. Stop acting like a freaking hypocrite and start apologising for this genocide. Hamas is well known to integrate its military assets in civillian regions. If they park a tank or a rocket installation right next to a hospital, what Israel to do? Not fire back? They might as well surrender if they gave in to such repugnant moral blackmail. Israel tries to avoid civillian casualites, Hamas tries to ramp up the casualties so they can be used for propaganda. Quickly from Wikipedia: 7978 Palestinian fatalities, of which 1620 children, versus 1503 Israeli dead of which 142 children. You dare call that a genocide? And more than ten times the number of under aged fatalities on the Palestine side clearly shows how hard Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties. You're such a bright guy. As someone who has served in the IDF during Cast Lead, you really have no idea how hard Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties. Think about it - don't you find it odd that despite having a massive arsenal, and firing into a really dense population, the casualties are relatively low? just look north to Syria to see how much death there is when the army doesn't give a fuck about casualties.
Yeah it sure is odd how Israeli casualties are lower than palestinian casualties when Hamas is actually aiming for civilians and the IDF isn't.
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On November 15 2012 21:44 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 20:47 hooahah wrote:On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 20:05 NesquiKGG wrote:
Israel are good at telling stories about getting bombed and losing citizens .. but are they actually true? some of them might be but its not compareable to what happened to Gaza when Israel killed dozen of innocent people and call it "War" and then apologies at Davos.... YouTube itself has like thousends of Videos where Isreal soldiers threaten, kill or abuse Palastine Womens, Children and Old People... did you hear anything about a palastine man, chil or women who threaten, abused or killed a jew or isreal people?... Hamas is evil .. but this doesnt give anyone the right to kill so many innocent people... and you people defending isreal should aks yourself if you're not biased and blinded or manipulated by some fake news... :/ I rly dont know how we people gonna get a long if there are still morons killing innocent people and still getting support from their country men.... I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. On November 15 2012 20:35 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:29 Passion wrote:
Dude you lot killed so many more Palestinians, you're denying their right to their ancestral lands in which they've lived long before the UK was pressured into giving it to the Jews, you're pretty much putting an entire people in a freaking concentration camp. Ancestral land? Are we a bunch of savages? Murdering people over land, honestly, get in the 21st century, please. These people are condemming themselvse, and their children, to a lifetime of suffering, over land? What land? The vast majority of the Palestinians has never even seen "their" land, so what makes it theirs? Because a bunch of ancestors lived there? I don't see you volunteering to give our land back to the Roman empire. Stop this barbaric tribalism. It's bad enough to hear it at all, but to have someone with internet buy into such a primitive mindset is idiotic. Palestinian freedom fighters hiding? You're throwing the entire USA modern arsenal on their wives, their kids, their houses. They have no way to resist and no where to hide. Stop acting like a freaking hypocrite and start apologising for this genocide. Hamas is well known to integrate its military assets in civillian regions. If they park a tank or a rocket installation right next to a hospital, what Israel to do? Not fire back? They might as well surrender if they gave in to such repugnant moral blackmail. Israel tries to avoid civillian casualites, Hamas tries to ramp up the casualties so they can be used for propaganda. Quickly from Wikipedia: 7978 Palestinian fatalities, of which 1620 children, versus 1503 Israeli dead of which 142 children. You dare call that a genocide? And more than ten times the number of under aged fatalities on the Palestine side clearly shows how hard Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties. You're such a bright guy. As someone who has served in the IDF during Cast Lead, you really have no idea how hard Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties. Think about it - don't you find it odd that despite having a massive arsenal, and firing into a really dense population, the casualties are relatively low? just look north to Syria to see how much death there is when the army doesn't give a fuck about casualties. Yeah it sure is odd how Israeli casualties are lower than palestinian casualties when Hamas is actually aiming for civilians and the IDF isn't.
Not odd at all when you compare Hamas and Israel's military capabilities.
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On November 15 2012 21:42 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:26 Oshuy wrote:On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad). Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism. Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism. (palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider) And Hamas is notorious for targeting civilians, with both suicide bombers and rockets. Condemn Israel's blockade and settlement policies all you want, but there is simply no excuse for targeting civilians.
No real surprise to see you're from Israel ^^^
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"There's war in the streets and war in the Middle East" 2Pac was right and will be for generations to come. Petty humans will never learn 
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On November 15 2012 21:48 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:42 Novalisk wrote:On November 15 2012 21:26 Oshuy wrote:On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad). Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism. Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism. (palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider) And Hamas is notorious for targeting civilians, with both suicide bombers and rockets. Condemn Israel's blockade and settlement policies all you want, but there is simply no excuse for targeting civilians. No real surprise to see you're from Israel ^^^
No real surprise to see people use that for ad hominem
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On November 15 2012 17:45 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 17:31 sunprince wrote:On November 15 2012 17:17 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 16:56 kmillz wrote:
I don't know if this is unpatriotic to say..but as a former Republican and now Libertarian I gotta say I'm pretty tired of any violence over there. Israel needs to chill out. Why the fuck are they widely considered our closest ally" I wouldn't call them our closest ally (that's more likely Britain/Canada)... but they are an ally in an area where we don't have many. We arm them because they are friendly and the enemy of our enemy is our friend. We are also able to use our significant influence over them to restrain them--without us they would already likely be at war. Israel is to the United States as North Korea is to China: a frequently embarassing liability but geopolitically necessary "ally". What's necessary about Israel? The turks were for the taking for a good while and there's always a nice gulf state if we needed. Hell, the lebanon of all was pretty western.
The location is the most important strategic asset, allowing power projection over not only the Middle East, but Russia and China as well. Essentially, the entirety of Israel is our forward operating base in the Middle East. We keep six war reserve stocks, an aircraft base, and a major military hospital there. We're also developing a radar facility and a joint anti-ballistic missile program in Israel. The high levels of cooperation between the US military and the IDF effectively means that in a time of crisis, the IDF would serve as a forward-deployed army that's already heavily entrenched.
Secondarily, Israeli intelligence capabilities are pretty top notch, second only to the United States and perhaps China/Russia/UK. Despite the... mistrust between American and Israeli intelligence (they engage in frequent espionage against each other), the two do cooperate heavily on matters of military intelligence and shared enemies such as Iran. Israel's location comes into play here too (i.e. they have particularly good intelligence on the Middle East), but so does the intelligence advantage of the widespread Jewish diaspora.
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On November 15 2012 21:16 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 20:51 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 15 2012 20:43 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:40 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 20:05 NesquiKGG wrote:
Israel are good at telling stories about getting bombed and losing citizens .. but are they actually true? some of them might be but its not compareable to what happened to Gaza when Israel killed dozen of innocent people and call it "War" and then apologies at Davos.... YouTube itself has like thousends of Videos where Isreal soldiers threaten, kill or abuse Palastine Womens, Children and Old People... did you hear anything about a palastine man, chil or women who threaten, abused or killed a jew or isreal people?... Hamas is evil .. but this doesnt give anyone the right to kill so many innocent people... and you people defending isreal should aks yourself if you're not biased and blinded or manipulated by some fake news... :/ I rly dont know how we people gonna get a long if there are still morons killing innocent people and still getting support from their country men.... I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. Well, if you put it like that, then the Israeli position is obvious isn't it? There can be no negotiation, and Israel will not permit itself to be destroyed or abolished. If you come into it from your angle, one where there can be no middle ground, then why should Israel seek any? You want to fight for that piece of land? Fine, says Israel, lets fight then. Aren't you, and others like you, getting exactly what you want? A battle to the death, no negotiation. You're saying we should give these extremists what they want, because one can't reason with them? no he's actually saying that based on your reasoning that israel stole the palestinian homeland and hence should have the land taken back from them there is no middle ground. so why should israel bother with negotiation or giving quarter if the only option left to them is fight for their land or give it up? hence the fight to the death But that's their choice. And I figure that's the price of freedom. Or should we have given Nazi Germany half of France?
comparing israel to nazi germany is rather ironic and i would say inappropriate - what if france hid behind women and children and shot at nazis? last i checked israel wasnt setting up concentration camps either. nor did germany have any sort of legitimate claims to french land vs the UN brokered treaty for the division of palestine.
to extend your metaphor though, you'd rather israel and hamas go to all out war to settle this once and for all? thats an outcome undesirable for all, i think its quite indisputable that as few people dying as possible is a good outcome. what i THINK zalz was saying (and even if he weren't, i'm saying it now) is that the ideal situation would be that of peace/cooperation/equitable division of land, rather than statements claiming the blame lies entirely on one side or the other.
EDIT:
to the israelis in this thread, what is your take on division of land? afaik israel overstepped the UN declared boundaries on their land, so do you guys think this is justified + if so, why?
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Does anyone have problems with seeing the first page of this thread? Whenever i try, it just freezes the tab, trying to continuously load something.
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On November 15 2012 21:54 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:48 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 21:42 Novalisk wrote:On November 15 2012 21:26 Oshuy wrote:On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad). Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism. Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism. (palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider) And Hamas is notorious for targeting civilians, with both suicide bombers and rockets. Condemn Israel's blockade and settlement policies all you want, but there is simply no excuse for targeting civilians. No real surprise to see you're from Israel ^^^ No real surprise to see people use that for ad hominem
True it was an ad hominem but you're making it sound like Palestine has this massive death toll in Israel when about 9-10 Palestinians die compared to every Israel who dies. It's like you're living in a separate world saying "They kill all the civilians! We just kill more by accident! grrr rawr rawr" So either your military is incredibly poor or they disregard civilians as much as the Hamas disregards civilians such that it's rather equal footing.
Except one side is actively demolishing Palestinian settlements without warning and relocating to ghetto's. You wonder how a group like the Hamas finds followers.
On November 15 2012 21:59 Pika Chu wrote:
Does anyone have problems with seeing the first page of this thread? Whenever i try, it just freezes the tab, trying to continuously load something.
No problem here, I had a similar issue yesterday, thought TL was down, it'll pass just avoid that page.
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Feel bad for the civilians in both countries..Shit like this will only lead to more attacks...
BTW some post in this thread is disgusting
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On November 15 2012 22:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:54 Novalisk wrote:On November 15 2012 21:48 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 21:42 Novalisk wrote:On November 15 2012 21:26 Oshuy wrote:On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad). Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism. Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism. (palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider) And Hamas is notorious for targeting civilians, with both suicide bombers and rockets. Condemn Israel's blockade and settlement policies all you want, but there is simply no excuse for targeting civilians. No real surprise to see you're from Israel ^^^ No real surprise to see people use that for ad hominem True it was an ad hominem but you're making it sound like Palestine has this massive death toll in Israel when about 9-10 Palestinians die compared to every Israel who dies.
I said targeting civilians, not killing civilians.
It's like you're living in a separate world saying "They kill all the civilians! We just kill more by accident! grrr rawr rawr" So either your military is incredibly poor or they disregard civilians as much as the Hamas disregards civilians such that it's rather equal footing.
Now you're just being ridiculous. Please stop putting words into my mou- err, keyboard?.
Except one side is actively demolishing Palestinian settlements without warning and relocating to ghetto's. You wonder how a group like the Hamas finds followers.
There are ways for Palestinians to get what they want aside from targeting civilians. Sadly the targeting civilians part is what makes the news and what alienates the world against their cause. It's counter-productive and has to stop.
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On November 15 2012 21:55 sgfightmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:16 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:51 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 15 2012 20:43 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:40 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 20:05 NesquiKGG wrote:
Israel are good at telling stories about getting bombed and losing citizens .. but are they actually true? some of them might be but its not compareable to what happened to Gaza when Israel killed dozen of innocent people and call it "War" and then apologies at Davos.... YouTube itself has like thousends of Videos where Isreal soldiers threaten, kill or abuse Palastine Womens, Children and Old People... did you hear anything about a palastine man, chil or women who threaten, abused or killed a jew or isreal people?... Hamas is evil .. but this doesnt give anyone the right to kill so many innocent people... and you people defending isreal should aks yourself if you're not biased and blinded or manipulated by some fake news... :/ I rly dont know how we people gonna get a long if there are still morons killing innocent people and still getting support from their country men.... I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. Well, if you put it like that, then the Israeli position is obvious isn't it? There can be no negotiation, and Israel will not permit itself to be destroyed or abolished. If you come into it from your angle, one where there can be no middle ground, then why should Israel seek any? You want to fight for that piece of land? Fine, says Israel, lets fight then. Aren't you, and others like you, getting exactly what you want? A battle to the death, no negotiation. You're saying we should give these extremists what they want, because one can't reason with them? no he's actually saying that based on your reasoning that israel stole the palestinian homeland and hence should have the land taken back from them there is no middle ground. so why should israel bother with negotiation or giving quarter if the only option left to them is fight for their land or give it up? hence the fight to the death But that's their choice. And I figure that's the price of freedom. Or should we have given Nazi Germany half of France? comparing israel to nazi germany is rather ironic and i would say inappropriate - what if france hid behind women and children and shot at nazis? last i checked israel wasnt setting up concentration camps either. nor did germany have any sort of legitimate claims to french land vs the UN brokered treaty for the division of palestine. to extend your metaphor though, you'd rather israel and hamas go to all out war to settle this once and for all? thats an outcome undesirable for all, i think its quite indisputable that as few people dying as possible is a good outcome. what i THINK zalz was saying (and even if he weren't, i'm saying it now) is that the ideal situation would be that of peace/cooperation/equitable division of land, rather than statements claiming the blame lies entirely on one side or the other. EDIT: to the israelis in this thread, what is your take on division of land? afaik israel overstepped the UN declared boundaries on their land, so do you guys think this is justified + if so, why?
This is an interesting discussion, I think Israel is more likely compared to pre-WW2 Germany where the "hate" was building before the camps really got raised. I mean we're already seeing active relocation and humanitarian abuses but not enough to say "NAZI NAZI NAZI". I think a more adequate comparison is the actively looked at which is the apartheid in South Africa. It's strange though because it draws certain aspects but not entirely. It's very confusing, and the Hamas is much more supported then the black South Africans so it makes such actions much harder to pursue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
But yeah, just as AngryMag was trying to justify that Hamas is in some way equivalent to the NAZI party the idea that we're equating Israel as the NAZI party is a bit harsh at the present. I still stand by my stance that they're doing similar things, but similar does not equate and correlation does not represent causation.
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On November 15 2012 21:55 sgfightmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 21:16 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:51 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 15 2012 20:43 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:40 zalz wrote:On November 15 2012 20:36 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 20:31 BluePanther wrote:On November 15 2012 20:05 NesquiKGG wrote:
Israel are good at telling stories about getting bombed and losing citizens .. but are they actually true? some of them might be but its not compareable to what happened to Gaza when Israel killed dozen of innocent people and call it "War" and then apologies at Davos.... YouTube itself has like thousends of Videos where Isreal soldiers threaten, kill or abuse Palastine Womens, Children and Old People... did you hear anything about a palastine man, chil or women who threaten, abused or killed a jew or isreal people?... Hamas is evil .. but this doesnt give anyone the right to kill so many innocent people... and you people defending isreal should aks yourself if you're not biased and blinded or manipulated by some fake news... :/ I rly dont know how we people gonna get a long if there are still morons killing innocent people and still getting support from their country men.... I'm sorry, I don't approve some of the stuff Israel has done, but if I had to pick who I wanted to win in this fight, it would be Israel 100% of the time. They've shown loads more tolerance and restraint than the Palestinians have, both recently and throughout the history of that region (last 100 years or so). I'm not sure you know how this entire conflict started... Israel just stole the Palestinian homeland. Tolerance? Restraint? You can't really be serious. Well, if you put it like that, then the Israeli position is obvious isn't it? There can be no negotiation, and Israel will not permit itself to be destroyed or abolished. If you come into it from your angle, one where there can be no middle ground, then why should Israel seek any? You want to fight for that piece of land? Fine, says Israel, lets fight then. Aren't you, and others like you, getting exactly what you want? A battle to the death, no negotiation. You're saying we should give these extremists what they want, because one can't reason with them? no he's actually saying that based on your reasoning that israel stole the palestinian homeland and hence should have the land taken back from them there is no middle ground. so why should israel bother with negotiation or giving quarter if the only option left to them is fight for their land or give it up? hence the fight to the death But that's their choice. And I figure that's the price of freedom. Or should we have given Nazi Germany half of France? comparing israel to nazi germany is rather ironic and i would say inappropriate - what if france hid behind women and children and shot at nazis? last i checked israel wasnt setting up concentration camps either. nor did germany have any sort of legitimate claims to french land vs the UN brokered treaty for the division of palestine. to extend your metaphor though, you'd rather israel and hamas go to all out war to settle this once and for all? thats an outcome undesirable for all, i think its quite indisputable that as few people dying as possible is a good outcome. what i THINK zalz was saying (and even if he weren't, i'm saying it now) is that the ideal situation would be that of peace/cooperation/equitable division of land, rather than statements claiming the blame lies entirely on one side or the other. EDIT: to the israelis in this thread, what is your take on division of land? afaik israel overstepped the UN declared boundaries on their land, so do you guys think this is justified + if so, why?
It truly is horribly ironic. And yes, it's almost inappropriate, if it weren't a fairly accurate comparison. Israel doesn't call them concentration camps, but how else should we call the Gaza strip? Just because the UN brokered the treaty (which I'd consider an incorrect starting point of the conflict; this happened while Palestine still was a UK mandate) this doesn't make it legitimate.
I wouldn't want to see all out war, I want to see the UN / civilized world invade Israel and take away power from their extremist government. I'd like to see the land being given back to the Palestines. And then, for all I care, the UK/US can give Israel a part of their own territory.
This is also because I don't see a peaceful solution happening. The conflict has lasted close to a century, we've put a complete different culture and religion in the middle of tense region already, there is no way to legitimise Israels creation and existence...
But you are right to say you can't truly blame Israel in the bigger picture, but they're sure not helping, and they are the problem now.
Looking forward to the answers on your last questions.
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On November 15 2012 22:06 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 22:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:54 Novalisk wrote:On November 15 2012 21:48 Passion wrote:On November 15 2012 21:42 Novalisk wrote:On November 15 2012 21:26 Oshuy wrote:On November 15 2012 21:22 HunterX11 wrote:On November 15 2012 21:17 hzflank wrote:
I think calling the Palestinians terrorists may be a bit unfair. I make a distinction between Al Qaeda and the French Resistance, because the French Resistance was trying to defend what they believed to be their homeland. To me, the French Resistance were not terrorists. The only sensible definition of terrorism is one that does not carry an inherent value judgement. Palestinian militants, the French Resistance and al Qaeda have all partaken in terrorism--that doesn't make them all bad (though in al Qaeda's case clearly they ARE all bad). Difference between resistance/guerilla tactics and terrorisms is not in the means, but in the goal/targets. If targets are military (bases/soldiers/supplys/arm factories/...), it is resistance. If targets are civilians, it is terrorism. Aiming rockets at Israeli soldiers is resistance (even if a few passerbys are colateral damage). Using suicide bombers in crowded areas is terrorism. (palestinians have done both, depending on the period you consider) And Hamas is notorious for targeting civilians, with both suicide bombers and rockets. Condemn Israel's blockade and settlement policies all you want, but there is simply no excuse for targeting civilians. No real surprise to see you're from Israel ^^^ No real surprise to see people use that for ad hominem True it was an ad hominem but you're making it sound like Palestine has this massive death toll in Israel when about 9-10 Palestinians die compared to every Israel who dies. I said targeting civilians, not killing civilians. Show nested quote +It's like you're living in a separate world saying "They kill all the civilians! We just kill more by accident! grrr rawr rawr" So either your military is incredibly poor or they disregard civilians as much as the Hamas disregards civilians such that it's rather equal footing. Now you're just being ridiculous. Please stop putting words into my mou- err, keyboard?. Show nested quote +Except one side is actively demolishing Palestinian settlements without warning and relocating to ghetto's. You wonder how a group like the Hamas finds followers. There are ways for Palestinians to get what they want aside from targeting civilians. Sadly the targeting civilians part is what makes the news and what alienates the world against their cause. It's counter-productive and has to stop.
Sorry so they just, by total accident with a much more superior armed forces technologically and trained, manage to rack up more civilian deaths by "oops my bad" then a state actively trying to kill civilians? It's like your argument is "Well it wasn't our intent to kill 10x as many civilians, are hands are clean"
Next you say I'm being ridiculous but you never refuted how either side are different, except that Hamas kills less civilians than Israel that is.
And then you note "ways Palestinians can get what they want without killing civilians" which doesn't even address my last quote whatsoever, how are they going to get Israel to stop demolishing settlements and expanding. It's like you're washing your hands of everything Israel does and saying "It's Palestine's fault"
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