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not very surprising that shady groups are exploiting this.
Possible fraud in the US Election system - Page 4
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
not very surprising that shady groups are exploiting this. | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On October 31 2012 12:01 Lmui wrote: The areas on TL I visit are the general election thread and league of legends. Pretty much the same on reddit (frontpage + /r/leagueoflegends) Although reddit I'd admit isn't altogether reliable, reading the first hundred comments and the most controversial comments gives a good idea of what the facts behind something is. For example, top comments in the /r/politics is generally republican bashing/obama praising but if you go down a bit (sometimes a lot) you find gems for the other side as well. That's how I found the /r/statistics link that gave other rationale behind the trend. I have taken the liberty of linking your rebuttal at the top of the OP. I understand you may have reservations about trusting me on this. I've been extremely critical of the Wisconsin elections board (I'm talking real life here). I've written some scathing letters to government officials, both elected and at the board, regarding their incompetence. I've noted voter fraud and mistakes CAUSED by their incompetence. Hell, just google the name Kathy Nickolaus to see some of the shit I've had to deal with. I know that fraud happens, I've witnessed it. I advocate a complete overhaul to the system because of fraud. HOWEVER, I also have enough experience with the election system in Wisconsin to know that these accusations are IMPOSSIBLE. Note that I didn't say "unlikely". IMPOSSIBLE. The way the system works, you would literally have to bribe ~1200 elections officials elected across the state to be in on your plan. These are elections officials from ALL WALKS OF LIFE AND PARTIES. Trust me, I've had to sue Democrat clerks for not giving me election information I'm permitted to have--I guarantee they wouldn't just go along with some Mitt Romney scam plan. The numbers they report to the GAB are publically reported by the GAB ward by ward. If someone is going to do this without scamming the election officials, they'd have to scam at the higher level once the reports come in. However, because this information is publicly available, don't you think these elections officials would say something if their local results differed from those in the final tally? Particularly if their preferred candidate didn't win? It's literally IMPOSSIBLE for the results found in Wisconsin to be attributed to fraud like that suggested by the author of that article. Since Wisconsin CANNOT be fraud, you MUST look to alternative reasons. Without being able to eliminate Wisconsin, you cannot say that fraud is the cause of this. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
- It saves a little bit of time at certain parts of the paper-process if the people behind the election process actually understands how it works (some places they didn't and it forced people to vote on paper instead untill the machine was set up properly!). - It is more expensive than paper voting in Denmark! - It is far more obscure to make a recount and in general it will be harder to proove a result without significant expensive and timeconsuming extra-systems (this will give rise to speculations about fraud, like this post). - Even though some politicians are pleading very passionately for the opposite, the general population is not really crazy about getting voting machines as soon as they understand the systems. It seems the priority of voting machines is more a question of very effective marketing (and maybe some problematic streams of money) rather than an actual need. For Denmark it truely is a significant step backwards with the systems I have heard about and experts have commented on. I am not saying that voting machines are not the future, but it surely needs a lot of improvement to really be competitive against the olden ways! | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On October 31 2012 12:10 Skirmjan wrote: this thing reminds me of an old simpsons video (2008) + Show Spoiler + do you guys really use vendi.. err voting machinges like that? (i googled "USA presidential election voting machine") that doesn't sound really safe, also sounds kinda unnecessary, really... here, there were lots of concerns about electronic data report, which can be double checked tho, and such a machine would raise a shitstorm Why have they been adopted in the first place? Economic reasons? I've never used an electronic voting booth. Everyone I used was the punch type where you walk in pull the lever to the right and it will close the curtain and load a ballot then you press the plungers down on your picks and when you pull the lever to the left it punches the ballot and opens the curtain. | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
The Democratic party is not a power underdog here. Seriously, it's like you guys assume the Republicans are some shady evil dudes and the Democrats are the innocent, naive good guys. What the heck - other than their political platforms they operate the same way. Why are we even giving this the time of day? It's like that idiotic thread about a '$ 43 trillion fraud' that turned out to be some whiners complaining about the bailouts. | ||
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Troxle
United States486 Posts
On October 31 2012 14:44 Ryalnos wrote: Why the hell do people assume that the Democratic party with its vast resources and numerous, intelligent personnel who care a whole lot more than you do would not have noticed and prosecuted such fraud? The Democratic party is not a power underdog here. Seriously, it's like you guys assume the Republicans are some shady evil dudes and the Democrats are the innocent, naive good guys. What the heck - other than their political platforms they operate the same way. Why are we even giving this the time of day? It's like that idiotic thread about a '$ 43 trillion fraud' that turned out to be some whiners complaining about the bailouts. This. I mean go look at the Nixon scandal. He just happened to get caught, but stuff like that happened on BOTH sides. I also think this is a bit of a hoax, it'd be really hard to prove. I doubt they are realistically testin' these machines on a large scale and insertin' 100k or so fake votes to see if the machine is swayin' votes or not. This just seems like some false propaganda to stir up results from "undecided" voters. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
That the voting machines might be easilly rigged is a flaw which both current parties should be working to have changed, since even if there's no fraud going on, the possibility is still there, and therefore should be eliminated. Same thing with how the US allows voting without ID - if you cannot guarantee a person's identity, you cannot guarantee that the person doesn't move from area to area, voting for his friends, family and colleagues who might be too lazy to vote, or who haven't had a chance yet, and thus skew both the voter percentages, and the outcomes, as well as giving one person far greater (of course, still insignificant, but still greater) say in the outcome of the vote. Also, why the hostility against international monitoring of the voting system? This is regular procedure in (most?) european countries at least, and is a display of mutual trust rather than an implication of expected foul play. Also, it adds legitimacy to the vote to the international community. Would not greater security and greater legitimacy be a win for any party involvted? I dunno. Having worked with norwegian voting system the last decade, the descriptions of the american system baffles me. It seems very easilly exploitable, and hard to trace. I would not trust such a system. | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On October 31 2012 17:10 plated.rawr wrote: Wether there is fraud going on through abuse of your voting system or not, this shouldn't be a partisan issue for any side - ensuring the voting system has as little leeway as possible for fraudulent activities should be priority for ANY political party. That the voting machines might be easilly rigged is a flaw which both current parties should be working to have changed, since even if there's no fraud going on, the possibility is still there, and therefore should be eliminated. Same thing with how the US allows voting without ID - if you cannot guarantee a person's identity, you cannot guarantee that the person doesn't move from area to area, voting for his friends, family and colleagues who might be too lazy to vote, or who haven't had a chance yet, and thus skew both the voter percentages, and the outcomes, as well as giving one person far greater (of course, still insignificant, but still greater) say in the outcome of the vote. Also, why the hostility against international monitoring of the voting system? This is regular procedure in (most?) european countries at least, and is a display of mutual trust rather than an implication of expected foul play. Also, it adds legitimacy to the vote to the international community. Would not greater security and greater legitimacy be a win for any party involvted? I dunno. Having worked with norwegian voting system the last decade, the descriptions of the american system baffles me. It seems very easilly exploitable, and hard to trace. I would not trust such a system. It's because our federal government doesn't run the elections. We are a federation, and therefore our voting system is actually quite complex and each state is permitted to run their elections however they want (within constitutional constraints). Trust me when I say it'd be a mess for international monitors to observe. It's not like anyone is going to get away with massive fraud. Romney alone has over 1000 lawyers in my state to monitor the elections. I'm sure Obama isn't far behind. This gives reassurance to the average citizen that if there is foul play, the other side will call out their challenger. Our election system is also extremely transparent. I can go and look up vote totals ward by ward. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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landonious
United States60 Posts
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
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CptBeefheart
United States45 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On November 01 2012 03:29 CptBeefheart wrote: Loled because our votes don't count for shit except to make the canidates feel liked. Electoral college decides who is pres. Almost every EC voter is obligated by law to vote for the candidate that wins their state. There is a very small number of EC voters who can vote any way they want, but there's only been one or two times where they voted for someone other than the winner of their state. This "story" is just typical fever-swamp conspiracism. The very few examples of voter machines giving wrong results in early voting this year have been Republican votes showing up as Democrat votes, and a "re-calibration" of the machines solved it. People will just contort their minds in all kinds of ways to explain losing or assuage a fear of losing. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On October 31 2012 12:14 Sinensis wrote: I've never been to reddit. All the research I've done on voting machines has been school related. None of you are ever going to post any proof. Just links to absurd websites. Look there's an easy way for us to resolve our differences of opinion. You guys are the ones with the claim of fraud. Take it to Reuters. Take it to the New York Times. Or the Washington Post. Or whatever. Go to any accountable news organization and show them this story. If it's in the paper next week I'll start believing you. Otherwise it's just a garbage crackpot thread. Reddit does not count. Reddit is a breeding ground for crackpot news stories. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Warcloud
United States97 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
They are stuck in an unending circle. The unreliable sources are taken as fact, and they reject any legitimate source that counters their points as "TEH MAINSTREAM!" All reliable researches show that vote fraud is nearly non-existent. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On November 01 2012 04:05 Acritter wrote: There are well-documented cases from this year already of Democratic voter registration forms being destroyed. This is not something unexpected from the party of cheating. There are also well-documented cases this year of registered Republicans in Florida receiving letters saying that their voter registration is in doubt and that if they vote this year it could be a criminal offense. This is not something unexpected from the party of graveyard voters and Tammany Hall. | ||
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reincremate
China2214 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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