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On July 12 2012 23:30 Wroshe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 23:27 iky43210 wrote:
there is no point of complaining, they're going to fix it. They're not going to redo the series because of it lol Honestly if NesTea would have simply paused the game the second he noticed the bunkers and went "WTF is this shit, wrong map" it would 100% have been a regame. Of course afterwards they aren't going to change anything in favor for NesTea but that is only because he himself apparantly didn't want anything to be done: else he would have paused the damn game.
Or Nestea would have possibly have gotten DQ'd for a pause that wasn't because of equipment failure of some kind. You don't seem to really understand the rules of tournaments. Pausing generally isn't allowed at all during a game unless your having problems with the computer or gear your using.
Go read up on some tournament rules before making a stupid statement like that cause you just look stupid for it.
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On July 13 2012 01:20 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:13 Griffith` wrote:
SC2 nerds are such cry babies about these "map imbalances" lol
Chokes/ramps/abuses/cliff drops/map imbalances are no where NEAR as abusive as they were in BW
jesus christ You cannot compare it tough, units simply work different. Weren't zerglings more powerful and marines weaker overal? Not sure here but if that is true that alone majorly effects bunker rushes.
defending 4 pools as T sucked lol
jerklings op, not to meantion the maps back then lol.
So many sc2 people would rage. Being able to create a wall on one map, then using the same building setup on a ramp the same size, and not having a wall
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:22 Random_Guy09 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 23:30 Wroshe wrote:On July 12 2012 23:27 iky43210 wrote:
there is no point of complaining, they're going to fix it. They're not going to redo the series because of it lol Honestly if NesTea would have simply paused the game the second he noticed the bunkers and went "WTF is this shit, wrong map" it would 100% have been a regame. Of course afterwards they aren't going to change anything in favor for NesTea but that is only because he himself apparantly didn't want anything to be done: else he would have paused the damn game. Or Nestea would have possibly have gotten DQ'd for a pause that wasn't because of equipment failure of some kind. You don't seem to really understand the rules of tournaments. Pausing generally isn't allowed at all during a game unless your having problems with the computer or gear your using. Go read up on some tournament rules before making a stupid statement like that cause you just look stupid for it.
No, I feel that should the map be the incorrect map or have an erroneous feature a pause is completely justified. Imagine if the map had marines doing double damage. Should pausing in the middle of the game not be allowed because you realise the marines are on perma stim?
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On July 13 2012 01:15 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 00:58 Marooned wrote:On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote:
if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe.
but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy. And how is a zerg ever supposed to abuse a ramp with no neutral depot? But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was GOMs fault, not the abuser. And how Terran ever supposed to abuse a late game zerg with no good T3 units But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was Blizzard's fault, not the abuser. See what I did there?
Only some? ALL progamers should be willing to do anything for a win. Otherwise, it's game throwing.
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On July 13 2012 01:08 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote:
if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe.
but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy. dat logic. yes of course because byun was highly at risk to getting blocked off by spine crawlers in the commonly executed double spawning pool spine rush no one is calling a player out... except maybe it was a cheesy ass strat people are calling gom out for using a map that is missing a key component that was instituted for balance's sake
see, then the issue is a map balance issue, and not the player's fault. players cannot be blamed for map balance. that was my point.
to use an example I think flash lost to jaedong on a BW map where it was very hard to stop an early pool in certain positions because your marines would always spawn outside your wall. legit win? what did flash do? play better next time.
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Their decision overall looks fine but it seems weird that their explanation for it is that there was no complaint in game. That sounds like a really bad excuse
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Can people not read or something, nobody thinks NesTea should have won game one with the play he did but he should not have had to deal with the situation at all.
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On July 13 2012 01:28 Iksf wrote:
Can people not read or something, nobody thinks NesTea should have won game one with the play he did but he should not have had to deal with the situation at all.
Well, the thing is, most of the posts here are saying nestea should have won, not just that game, but the whole series, lol. Mentality and all that shit is getting brought up
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On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote:
byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
It's not the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls, because that's actually against the rules, while this is not. The tournament map allowed for the strat to happen and no one really realized it but ByuN. In other words, GSL made it acceptable for a bunker block to happen on Metropolis (which is a really buggy map...idk why it's still in the pool), and ByuN just used that to his advantage. Extreme bad luck for NesTea, but ByuN just did what he can to win. If anything, blame Gom for not checking properly and Bliz for their terrible Bnet 0.2.
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Norway839 Posts
keee... I thought progamers should know how to drone drill double bunker walloffs with remote camera by now. guide here. They fall so fast. It's a bad tactic... as long as you pull drones as soon as you see the scvs, there is no way you're not going to break it. But I guess only a select few know about this technique?
It's a huge loss for the terran as you just start mining in your natural once the rush is held off. I think people are just whining about it because they haven't put in the hours to learn the drone drill technique well or feel like the reaction time that is needed to defend vs this is too stressful? I expected nestea to break it with drill, but yeah, didn't happen.
That being said it obviously sucks when maps/tournament organizers don't check things well enough and there is misinformation about things like depots and spawning positions. Especially when people don't react properly by pausing when the issues are discovered. It happens way too often and it's always sad, unprofessional and embarrassing every time. So make sure to check your maps organizers and post the rules loud n clear, and as a player, double check things as much as possible and pause the game when something happens, I guess.
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On July 12 2012 22:33 ACrow wrote:
Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
If you're practicing on the same map that had been in place in every previous gsl game the map was played on (until extremely recently) there's no reason to expect it to change, and if your team wasn't part of the gstl game that had the changed map, why should you be expected to go out of your way to keep up with every single game played that does not affect you?
It's also considerably harder to defend such an attack than it is to complete it.
I'm not saying this is what caused Nestea's series loss, but it's a pretty crappy situation.
Nestea was dicked, plain and simple. I don't see any reason for them to have replayed the entire set, but it's essentially lose/lose in this case. Move on, and Gom's going to be a bit more attentive to their map situation.
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Nestea wasn't dicked.
Nestea fucked up horribly on defending. He pulled 2 drones. He wouldn't have defended a normal bunker rush. Why do people keep missing this? He had no chance of holding that push with or without the depot because he didn't pull enough workers. Not only did he mess that part up, when trying to focus the scv down, he stopped at 5 hp.
Also, patrolling drone (once you realize there is no depot, which takes 20 ingame seconds) is a good skill to have.
Stop blaming Byun for smashing your 'creator of the universe'
1. Nestea should have known there was no depot. I dont care if every other map last season had it. Not a single game on metropolis this season has had that depot. It was known.
2. Nestea didn't pull drones correctly.
3. Nestea didn't patrol (most diamonders i meet do this) upon noticing
Im not saying he wasn't in a crappy situation. But nestea wasn't dicked, he could have paused instantly upon noticing and asked for a regame. It's actually his fault the game went on. It was up to him whether or not to play it out, he chose to play it out, badly at that.
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On July 13 2012 01:32 glzElectromaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote:
byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting. It's not the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls, because that's actually against the rules, while this is not. The tournament map allowed for the strat to happen and no one really realized it but ByuN. In other words, GSL made it acceptable for a bunker block to happen on Metropolis (which is a really buggy map...idk why it's still in the pool), and ByuN just used that to his advantage. Extreme bad luck for NesTea, but ByuN just did what he can to win. If anything, blame Gom for not checking properly and Bliz for their terrible Bnet 0.2.
Fine, his argument would have been better as "It's the same as jabbing someone with a tranquilizer dart during some random sporting event where they normally check for tranquilizer darts in order to make sure nobody gets poked with one because, while it's not explicitly in the rules it's simply poor form. In this case, the tranq dart checker guy optimized his tranq dart checker to run faster, but somehow screwed up it's ability to check for tranquilizer darts."
People are so ridiculous when it comes to tearing down metaphors. You get the idea he's trying to make, just like, accept that.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Although I'm sad and upset that this got through GOM's quality control, and am sad that my favorite Zerg, NesTea, didn't win, I respect Byun for doing everything he could to win. We can't know for sure who would have won the series if NesTea won Game 1. Maybe he would have won games 4 and 5.
But GOM made the right decision on the ground. I hope they act well to avoid incidents like this in the future.
Good luck, Byun. You're destined to win this GSL. We can't let a Protoss win, and we sure as hell can't let a Zerg win. Go and show everyone that Terran is still the strongest race.
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Man, first Byun gets shit for "matchfixing" and now he gets shit for doing whatever it takes to win. What a weird community we are sometimes z_z
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even if the depot was missing, nestea could've easily held if he just killed that 10hp SCV to prevent the 2nd bunker from finishing. Byun played better in the other two matches as well so i dont think it rlly matters that much, made it easier for Byun at most
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On July 13 2012 01:42 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:32 glzElectromaster wrote:On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote:
byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting. It's not the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls, because that's actually against the rules, while this is not. The tournament map allowed for the strat to happen and no one really realized it but ByuN. In other words, GSL made it acceptable for a bunker block to happen on Metropolis (which is a really buggy map...idk why it's still in the pool), and ByuN just used that to his advantage. Extreme bad luck for NesTea, but ByuN just did what he can to win. If anything, blame Gom for not checking properly and Bliz for their terrible Bnet 0.2. Fine, his argument would have been better as "It's the same as jabbing someone with a tranquilizer dart during some random sporting event where they normally check for tranquilizer darts in order to make sure nobody gets poked with one because, while it's not explicitly in the rules it's simply poor form. In this case, the tranq dart checker guy optimized his tranq dart checker to run faster, but somehow screwed up it's ability to check for tranquilizer darts." People are so ridiculous when it comes to tearing down metaphors. You get the idea he's trying to make, just like, accept that.
I get exactly what he's trying to say. But if he thinks the way the metaphor is put, I just think that's wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with arguing against the metaphor, because metaphors are supposed to show what they think of what actually happened, and if it's misleading then its either 1) they're not too good at making metaphors that fit their idea, or 2) the person's perception of what happened is different from what really happened, or at least what I believe was the case.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
The only people who should get shit for this would be GSL for letting the map with no depot get played on. Byun did what any progamer should do: he used the best strategy he could to win. His job is literally to win Sc2 games. I expect no less from the final representative of the Terran race.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:53 Blazinghand wrote:
The only people who should get shit for this would be GSL for letting the map with no depot get played on. Byun did what any progamer should do: he used the best strategy he could to win. His job is literally to win Sc2 games. I expect no less from the final representative of the Terran race.
I expect nothing less from any pro gamer on the planet.
You play to win
Byun did that
He won
End of. If you have an issue with it, it's GOM's side, not the player
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Blame the game, not the player.
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EPT
