EPTThe first part of this post is the conversation on episode 72 of State of the Game. I spent a lot of time typing this out, to reduce the amount of people saying "he said this, no he said that." That is the only reason I typed all of this out.
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Avilo: I appreciate you guys getting me on.
InControl: Yo, I heard that you wanted to be on.
Avilo: (laughs)
*Talk about Avilo’s hat blah blah blah*
InControl: So we were debating TvZ, as you turn on your webcam here, Kevin was kind of lost even though he brought up some points but we knew we needed to talk to you if we wanted to learn about the imbalances of TvZ so what’s wrong with TvZ right now.
Avilo: Alright well first off, Geoff why you always painting a negative picture of me on the show? Like, what do you have against me? Like you take these pot-shots at me…
Idra: Are we really doing this?
InControl: Avilo this is your one chance man this is like Eminem **Something - I’m not quite sure what it was** buddy. You gotta fucking hit at that shit right now…TvZ.
Avilo: Alright, TvZ the queen change. This is what everybody in the community, especially all the Terran players is up and arms about. So, it lets Zerg get up to 80 drones unharassed, undefended or whatever. And it just makes it so that the late game comes that much more quickly. I sort of listened to a little tidbit of what QXC what saying about the ravens and what-not.
*at the end portion of what Avilo was saying, JP put a picture of Avilo on the screen. Everyone laughs because the picture is Avilo with what looks like a teddy bear.*
Avilo: the whole queen change is what everybody is talking about and it allows Zerg to build queens and not put any larva into units. So now every Zerg is just building up to 80 drones and they are getting up to the late game that much quickly and you know people are going to the raven as an answer but it takes like 3 minutes to get hunter seeker or point defense drones or whatever it is to fight against the late game.
InControl: so what are you saying? Raven is the new meta game for late game?
Qxc. No TvZ late game is bullshit. That’s what he’s saying.
Avilo: indeed (laughs)
Idra: I doubt Zerg can just go up to 80 drones. Queens cost money, you don’t only have larva as a resource, you can’t spend all your larva early on. Cuz your spending 600 minerals on stuff to keep you safe. And it’s not entirely safe VS everything. People just overrate the defensive effectiveness of queens. And they are still defensive units. You’re not supposed to be able to really attack into them at least not that effectively. You’re supposed to be greedy yourself or do an all in that is actually designed to beat the queen build instead of doing an all in that’s designed to beat the meta game of two months ago.
Avilo: well that’s just the thing. Terrans don’t want to have to all in every single game.
Idra: you don’t have to.
Avilo: and that’s another point. If you guys have read luckyfool’s blog on team liquid that’s another point
InControl: I missed that one.
Idra: I wished I read that. I don’t know how I missed that. I regularly check luckyfool’s blog.
Avilo: hey there’s a lot of people in the community that have a lot of good stuff to say whether or not they are that popular. So yeah. Just please let me finish. Alright in luckyfool’s blog he’s describing this situation where exactly like you said Idra – Terran’s need to do some sort of attack to break through the type of 6 queen build. But the thing is is that Zergs have the opportunity to all-in the Terran back, whereas the Terran sort of has to play the 3 command center build kind of blindly and the Zerg has the opportunity to kill them where the Terran doesn’t.
Idra: you just said you didn’t want to have to all in every game. You can all in if you want. There’s blue flame hellion plus marine marauder all ins plus…
QXC: Idra, the point he is trying to make here is that when Zerg gets up to this pretty decent economy where he’s getting 3 hatches or even 4 hatches, he can very quickly decide...okay, I’ve got my third but I’m not gonna put my drones on it I’m gonna all in you instead. I’m just gonna use that third hatchery for production. When Terran goes 3 command centers, that’s it! We’re macroing. There is no all in. there is no timing. And that’s the annoying part of trying to play greedy against Zerg.
Idra: that’s not really true, you can be aggressive off of 3 command centers. If you catch
Zerg being too greedy you can kill them. If not, it’s not guaranteed to work. Just like if you put down the third and forth hatchery your attack is not as likely to be effective as if you did a roach Baneling all in off of two bases. It slows it down because you’ve invested more resources in other things.
Avilo: well I mean that’s the thing we could do that before but the queen change is sort of like snowballed everything like the creep spread comes out that much more quickly, the queens themselves like hellions, banshees, everything we would to do to like bite into the Zergs drone count…
Idra: no everything that you did do. Not everything that you could do. A lot of the old builds don’t work.
Avilo: well what builds should we be using? What builds would you recommend?
Idra: well you could run around with hellions instead of trying to stop creep spread that is happening cuz it’s gonna happen. Or you could not make a bunch of useless hellions
**screamer…scared the shit outa me! Haha Don’t know what anyone said here.**
Idra: or you could do some of the earlier marine rushes, like we saw…I forget who it was – it was a GSL Terran who did an economic two rax in both his games. He would two rax just to force the Zerg to be uncomfortable just to force them to not go the mass queen build immediately.
**I want to note that JP laughs out loud here, takes his headset off while regaining his composure and then puts his headset back on. I will come back to this later.**
Idra: and then he expanded behind it. Like there’s a lot of stuff you can do to make Zerg uncomfortable it’s just that the old builds don’t work anymore. blizzard decided that that early game situation was unfair for Zerg so they made queens better. There’s still aggression you can do it’s just that the old ones don’t work because a lot of foreign Terrans haven’t taken the time to find out what those are. But if you look at Korea, they do do a lot of aggressive builds that have quite a bit of success.
Avilo: yeah but those are the only builds that are having that bit of success. Sort of like all inny, two base timing time of builds and that’s what Terrans players are wanting, to be able to build a unit late game that isn’t just…you know if we’re competing with Zerg on equal terms in the late game we want to be able to go into the late game and not just sort of die. Like QXC was saying earlier about the Vikings and ravens, we have to sort of like judge the ratio of your units. Like if you go full brood lord corruptor and we build thors, we just sort of die. Like it just sort of like flip flops. Like the tech switches…like if we judge wrong, there is no going back. We can’t turn back the clock 4 minutes and make enough ravens to counter the air ball and we can’t turn back the clock 4 minutes and make enough marauders to counter the mass ultras. So there are just a lot of situations where the Terran just dies. As far as patches goes, that’s why they nerfed the ghosts because we could handle both tech switches. Now it’s just sort of do or die and that’s why Terran doesn’t like the late game. And also if you guys have seen fitsyhere playing that sort of mass queen style late game, that’s sort of an undeveloped thing as well that Zergs haven't explored. You don’t even need the corruptors anymore you just start accumulating queens so what do you think of all that?
Idra: I don’t know, no real players have done that queen thing so I don’t really want to judge it. I haven’t used it and I haven’t seen anyone good use it so…maybe it’s good maybe it’s not. As for everything else, yeah if you make the wrong decisions or if you make bad decisions you’re going to lose. If you have Zerg with enough economy to switch back and forth at will and you don’t have enough economy to switch back and forth at will then yes, you will lose if you don’t make the right decisions.
**At this point they both tried to talk at the same time. Avilo wanted to put in a statement here and Idra wanted to keep going.**
Idra: Shut the fuck up, as I was telling QXC…
Avilo: Hey hey hey…that’s exactly what I was saying. They do have the economy because of the drones now because of the queen buff. So that’s what I was…
InControl: Yeah but do you know what? Do you agree that Greg let you finish? **Can’t really understand here…I think this is what was said…the mic and video cut in-and-out. It’s hard to read lips and hear. Trust me, I’ve listened to it many times to try and get it right. I think that’s what is said here.**
Avilo: I was agreeing with Idra, the Zergs do have the economy – so the Terran does lose.
Idra: Zergs have the economy if you’re fucking bad and let them have the economy. As I was telling QXC you play the bio style and you do it well, you’re aggressive and you expand behind just like the Zerg is doing which is possible and can be done if you’re not fucking terrible like you, then yes, you can have enough economy to match the Zergs tech switches. You can put up four starports with reactors and you can have a couple of ravens out and then you can deal with the air switch just fine – even if you don’t see it coming immediately or don’t know it’s coming before it’s made.
Avilo: alright, well without taking cheap shots at you like you just did at me, that’s exactly what people are arguing against. This queen buff lets you get that economy so Terran does lose. I agree with you Idra.
Idra: but that’s not what I said at all.
Avilo: but I believe that is what you said. You said that if…
Idra: this guy is a fucking imbecile I’m not gonna talk to him anymore.
Avilo: okay, well I believe that is what you said. If Zerg is able to get that economy established ---
**It’s at this point you hear Skype in the background. The same noise you hear when someone is either dropped from a call or leaves. QXC picks up the conversation right away, bringing the attention back to the argument at hand.
While going into another topic shortly after Avilo left, this is the conversation:
JP: Greg I’m so sorry by the way.
Idra: You’re a fucker.
InControl: You held out a lot longer than I thought possible. You are growing before our eyes my friend.
Once again, later in the episode, this is the conversation:
InControl: I wanna say sorry to Avilo. It was nice having Avilo on, I guess I’ll stop trying to take so many jabs at him. I was touched at the attempt of a real debate that he made until he started yelling at Greg about the way he was turning and stuff…but that was cool. Avilo I appreciate you and you’re a good little soldier for the Terran army.
JP: I do apologize for having to basically kill you on Skype Avilo, I did it for the better of the show. Hopefully you understood.
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Now before I say anything about this, I just want to let everyone know I’m not out to start drama or anything and I’m taking the time to bash people. These are just my thoughts and constructive criticism for the show and future of ESports.
I should state that I am also aware that I may have misheard some statements, but I tried to listen very closely to the episode over and over to get it right.
I am also NOT going to go into the conversation topic, because that is not the reason for this article. I don’t care about balance or queens or Terrans or whatever. Again, that’s NOT the point of this article.
Now, I think that the conversation that isn’t mentioned above is also important. QXC and Idra talked for an hour about the same thing that Avilo tried to talk to Idra about. There was no swearing and it was a good argument. You can also take note that two people can argue without fighting. An argument doesn’t have to have shouting, swearing or blatant disrespect. The argument that preceded Avilo coming on the show had none of that.
Once Avilo came on the show, the first thing he said was how he appreciated being on the show. I also included some statements after, showing that no one else on the show said anything back. The first statement back was InControl talking about his hat.
The first thing that should have been said should have came from JP. JP should have said something like, “Good to have you here Avilo, thanks for taking the time out of your day to join us.” A simple, yet very effective compliment back to a guest on your show is something that can go a long way. It show s that you care about guests as well as showing all the viewers that you care.
Avilo then asks Geoff a stupid question. This may be kind of confusing as to why this is a bad move on everyone’s part…but let me explain. It’s a bad move on Avilo’s part because he’s not a regular on the show. As a guest, I would prefer you to not ask questions about anything that isn’t SC related. Knowing that a lot of the other people on the show clearly don’t respect you, don’t give them ammo. What occurs after just shows the lack of experience of the others. Everyone, except for QXC could have made it better. Everyone else could have said, “Avilo this isn’t the time for that. I’m sorry, but if you would please continue on with your reasons why Zerg is so powerful right now, that would be better for the show.”
The statement above shows Avilo that SOTG is clearly not the place to ask such questions because, again, you aren’t a regular on the show. The pre-show banter is some of the best material, don’t get me wrong. I love when everyone laughs and has a good time. I love when Artosis talks about his breakfast or his Bran-Flakes Bars or when he makes himself a shark on his webcam, just to name a few. It’s not a bad thing to have non-SC related content, but make it a pre or post-show thing. This should also be noted for the guests of SOTG as well.
While Avilo was beginning to talk, JP searches for Avilo SC2 to put a picture under the black slot that would regularly have a webcam. What comes up first a picture of Avilo for an interview with gamereplays.org. This picture also just happens to have Avilo holding what looks like a stuffed animal of some sort, possibly a good luck charm that is referenced in the interview. Of course, this is the one that JP selects, instead of the other picture that comes up of Avilo under his TL Wiki site. This again, is starting to show poor choices when there are clearly better ones to make and adding fuel to the fire.
Later, Avilo mentions something very interesting. He says something about a player named luckyfool and his blog on TeamLiquid.net. Immediately you have InControl saying, “He missed that one,” as well as Idra adding a sarcastic comment about how he regularly reads his blog.
I’m not about to talk about how Idra needs to come down off of his throne and stop acting the way he does, but I will say that he needs to start respecting people. You can BM in matches because you’re pissed off that you lost or you can leave games without saying GG. That stuff doesn’t bother me. But when you are on a show that is important to the SC2 scene and gets a lot of viewers, you have to act like a grown up. Avilo was trying to make a statement that he’s not the only one who thinks this way and there are other people on the blogs of TeamLiquid that talk about strategy.
Avilo’s point was just because someone is not popular or even in Master’s league, doesn’t mean they don’t have good things to add to the game of StarCraft. You CAN’T, while on a popular show about SC2 or any other game for that matter, start bashing the ideas of others who aren’t as talented as you are! That’s the equivalent of a professional Baseball player immediately bashing a reporter based solely on the grounds that he or she doesn’t play in the major leagues. This is soooo bad for not only your image, but your teams image as well. How many people want to root and cheer for a team that bashes SC players in the diamond league?
Before I get to the end of the Avilo and the end of the episode, I want to make a couple additional comments. QXC was absolutely fantastic in this episode. He supported Avilo because he saw that Avilo was struggling a little bit to get his point across to Idra (which ultimately was the reason that made Idra so mad). He picked up the end of the conversation very well to help the episode move forward as well. Very nicely done. I’ll no doubt enjoy any episode that you are on!
Another comment I would like to make is the constant snickering and laughter. In the write up of the episode, I make it clear when JP and InControl laugh, sometimes out loud. Again, you have a guest on that you don’t like. Fine…I get it. But as the host of a popular show with lots of influence, I feel like it’s in the best interest of the show if you show some respect. I’m not sure what it was about, but I don’t think that that matters. I think it’s different if you don’t have a guest on the show or if you’re doing (my all time favorite) a drinking show.
*** I’m not trying to tell you how to act during your own show. Some may even see this is as jealousy. I want to make it clear that I’m not out to bash SOTG. I LOVE this show! I just found some things in this episode that bugged me and can be fixed. I hope that everyone can understand that I’m taking time out of my life to write this up to help out. I hope to encourage everyone to only get better at what they do.
Now, the fact that Avilo was losing or winning the argument doesn’t matter. The fact is, both Idra and Avilo tried to talk at the same time. Idra felt that he got cut off while trying to make a point, and told Avilo to shut the fuck up. I don’t even have to talk about how bad this really is. But I will anyway. This is really bad! It’s bad to the point where it stops being funny. It WAS funny a year ago watching videos of Idra raging in games. That’s different than blatant disrespect.
Getting mad during competition…who isn’t guilty of that?! That’s the Idra that everyone loves. This Idra is totally different. You can’t have this happen. The first person to blame is Idra. But then who stepped in at this point? Who didn’t see more of this coming?! JP could have also stepped in, stating about how the argument was going nowhere. That’s a GREAT way of cutting off the argument that was getting too heated.
InControl tried to step in, but maybe at the wrong time. After Avilo had already begun talking again, InControl cuts him off to defend his teammate who had already told Avilo to shut the fuck up. Defending the aggressor makes you look just as bad. Play to your strengths InControl! This would have been a PERFECT time for some of your humor! You could have said, “Hey everyone…ten points to me for having to listen to a TvZ debate for so long! Looks like I win the argument!” Do you see how this not only brings the attention back to you, but also calms everyone down? Doing these things will make for a much better show.
Now this is where I understand the frustration for Idra. Avilo is clearly not as good as Idra or QXC is when it comes to debating. Avilo started to say the same things over and over again and started to say things that Idra clearly didn’t say. This, however, gives Idra no right to call Avilo a fucking imbecile. You say something like, “This clearly isn’t going anywhere and I don’t feel like arguing anymore. InControl, what do you think of all of this?” Or…”This argument is making me mad. I don’t think my race is overpowered and that’s all I have to say about that.”
The first statement deflects the attention away from you, allowing you to calm down and regain your thoughts without snapping. The second statement ends the argument. Both statements are obviously better than what Idra said for obvious reasons.
JP drops Avilo from Skype. Really? Is that how you’re going to treat every guest who gets disrespected by someone on your show? Drop the person getting disrespected?! How can anyone want to have a heated discussion on your show now? If Idra swears at QXC because QXC makes a fantastic point, would you drop QXC because you don’t want to drop Idra? I really don’t understand this at all. Avilo said nothing, except being a little poor at debating, to warrant that kind of behavior. Taking the easy way out on this one was a bad choice.
InControl clearly wasn’t paying attention to the argument either. Whatever InControl thought that Avilo said to Idra was wrong. I’m not 100% sure what InControl said at the end of his statement, but it’s nowhere near accurate. Also, apologizing because you know you did something wrong is a good step in the right direction and I’m glad that an apology was made, even if it sounded half-hearted, before the end of the episode.
So what can we learn from all of this?
I hope that, with some practice, that SC players will get better at handling themselves in the spotlight. It’s very easy to get lost behind a computer screen and talk shit during a game – and then lose yourself once you are out of that game.
It’s hard to adjust to being the face of news in SC. It’s hard to have your conversations examined by people. I know that if I had an argument examined by someone, they would probably have harder criticisms for me! I’m just trying to make the ESports scene better, starting with the way we treat each other.
Gold, Diamond, Grand Master…it doesn’t matter.
EG, TL, fnatic, Dignitas,…it doesn’t matter.
I hope that I didn’t piss anyone off with this article. That wasn’t my intention. I hope that whatever happens, happens for the better of ESports. That’s my goal – helping ESports becoming the best that it can be. As long as ESports continues to put out good content, some big things will happen.
Thank you very much for reading.
