***** The first part of this post is the conversation on episode 72 of State of the Game. I spent a lot of time typing this out, to reduce the amount of people saying "he said this, no he said that." That is the only reason I typed all of this out. *****
Avilo: I appreciate you guys getting me on.
InControl: Yo, I heard that you wanted to be on.
Avilo: (laughs)
*Talk about Avilo’s hat blah blah blah*
InControl: So we were debating TvZ, as you turn on your webcam here, Kevin was kind of lost even though he brought up some points but we knew we needed to talk to you if we wanted to learn about the imbalances of TvZ so what’s wrong with TvZ right now.
Avilo: Alright well first off, Geoff why you always painting a negative picture of me on the show? Like, what do you have against me? Like you take these pot-shots at me…
Idra: Are we really doing this?
InControl: Avilo this is your one chance man this is like Eminem **Something - I’m not quite sure what it was** buddy. You gotta fucking hit at that shit right now…TvZ.
Avilo: Alright, TvZ the queen change. This is what everybody in the community, especially all the Terran players is up and arms about. So, it lets Zerg get up to 80 drones unharassed, undefended or whatever. And it just makes it so that the late game comes that much more quickly. I sort of listened to a little tidbit of what QXC what saying about the ravens and what-not.
*at the end portion of what Avilo was saying, JP put a picture of Avilo on the screen. Everyone laughs because the picture is Avilo with what looks like a teddy bear.*
Avilo: the whole queen change is what everybody is talking about and it allows Zerg to build queens and not put any larva into units. So now every Zerg is just building up to 80 drones and they are getting up to the late game that much quickly and you know people are going to the raven as an answer but it takes like 3 minutes to get hunter seeker or point defense drones or whatever it is to fight against the late game.
InControl: so what are you saying? Raven is the new meta game for late game?
Qxc. No TvZ late game is bullshit. That’s what he’s saying.
Avilo: indeed (laughs)
Idra: I doubt Zerg can just go up to 80 drones. Queens cost money, you don’t only have larva as a resource, you can’t spend all your larva early on. Cuz your spending 600 minerals on stuff to keep you safe. And it’s not entirely safe VS everything. People just overrate the defensive effectiveness of queens. And they are still defensive units. You’re not supposed to be able to really attack into them at least not that effectively. You’re supposed to be greedy yourself or do an all in that is actually designed to beat the queen build instead of doing an all in that’s designed to beat the meta game of two months ago.
Avilo: well that’s just the thing. Terrans don’t want to have to all in every single game.
Idra: you don’t have to.
Avilo: and that’s another point. If you guys have read luckyfool’s blog on team liquid that’s another point
InControl: I missed that one.
Idra: I wished I read that. I don’t know how I missed that. I regularly check luckyfool’s blog.
Avilo: hey there’s a lot of people in the community that have a lot of good stuff to say whether or not they are that popular. So yeah. Just please let me finish. Alright in luckyfool’s blog he’s describing this situation where exactly like you said Idra – Terran’s need to do some sort of attack to break through the type of 6 queen build. But the thing is is that Zergs have the opportunity to all-in the Terran back, whereas the Terran sort of has to play the 3 command center build kind of blindly and the Zerg has the opportunity to kill them where the Terran doesn’t.
Idra: you just said you didn’t want to have to all in every game. You can all in if you want. There’s blue flame hellion plus marine marauder all ins plus…
QXC: Idra, the point he is trying to make here is that when Zerg gets up to this pretty decent economy where he’s getting 3 hatches or even 4 hatches, he can very quickly decide...okay, I’ve got my third but I’m not gonna put my drones on it I’m gonna all in you instead. I’m just gonna use that third hatchery for production. When Terran goes 3 command centers, that’s it! We’re macroing. There is no all in. there is no timing. And that’s the annoying part of trying to play greedy against Zerg.
Idra: that’s not really true, you can be aggressive off of 3 command centers. If you catch
Zerg being too greedy you can kill them. If not, it’s not guaranteed to work. Just like if you put down the third and forth hatchery your attack is not as likely to be effective as if you did a roach Baneling all in off of two bases. It slows it down because you’ve invested more resources in other things.
Avilo: well I mean that’s the thing we could do that before but the queen change is sort of like snowballed everything like the creep spread comes out that much more quickly, the queens themselves like hellions, banshees, everything we would to do to like bite into the Zergs drone count…
Idra: no everything that you did do. Not everything that you could do. A lot of the old builds don’t work.
Avilo: well what builds should we be using? What builds would you recommend?
Idra: well you could run around with hellions instead of trying to stop creep spread that is happening cuz it’s gonna happen. Or you could not make a bunch of useless hellions
**screamer…scared the shit outa me! Haha Don’t know what anyone said here.**
Idra: or you could do some of the earlier marine rushes, like we saw…I forget who it was – it was a GSL Terran who did an economic two rax in both his games. He would two rax just to force the Zerg to be uncomfortable just to force them to not go the mass queen build immediately.
**I want to note that JP laughs out loud here, takes his headset off while regaining his composure and then puts his headset back on. I will come back to this later.**
Idra: and then he expanded behind it. Like there’s a lot of stuff you can do to make Zerg uncomfortable it’s just that the old builds don’t work anymore. blizzard decided that that early game situation was unfair for Zerg so they made queens better. There’s still aggression you can do it’s just that the old ones don’t work because a lot of foreign Terrans haven’t taken the time to find out what those are. But if you look at Korea, they do do a lot of aggressive builds that have quite a bit of success.
Avilo: yeah but those are the only builds that are having that bit of success. Sort of like all inny, two base timing time of builds and that’s what Terrans players are wanting, to be able to build a unit late game that isn’t just…you know if we’re competing with Zerg on equal terms in the late game we want to be able to go into the late game and not just sort of die. Like QXC was saying earlier about the Vikings and ravens, we have to sort of like judge the ratio of your units. Like if you go full brood lord corruptor and we build thors, we just sort of die. Like it just sort of like flip flops. Like the tech switches…like if we judge wrong, there is no going back. We can’t turn back the clock 4 minutes and make enough ravens to counter the air ball and we can’t turn back the clock 4 minutes and make enough marauders to counter the mass ultras. So there are just a lot of situations where the Terran just dies. As far as patches goes, that’s why they nerfed the ghosts because we could handle both tech switches. Now it’s just sort of do or die and that’s why Terran doesn’t like the late game. And also if you guys have seen fitsyhere playing that sort of mass queen style late game, that’s sort of an undeveloped thing as well that Zergs haven't explored. You don’t even need the corruptors anymore you just start accumulating queens so what do you think of all that?
Idra: I don’t know, no real players have done that queen thing so I don’t really want to judge it. I haven’t used it and I haven’t seen anyone good use it so…maybe it’s good maybe it’s not. As for everything else, yeah if you make the wrong decisions or if you make bad decisions you’re going to lose. If you have Zerg with enough economy to switch back and forth at will and you don’t have enough economy to switch back and forth at will then yes, you will lose if you don’t make the right decisions.
**At this point they both tried to talk at the same time. Avilo wanted to put in a statement here and Idra wanted to keep going.**
Idra: Shut the fuck up, as I was telling QXC…
Avilo: Hey hey hey…that’s exactly what I was saying. They do have the economy because of the drones now because of the queen buff. So that’s what I was…
InControl: Yeah but do you know what? Do you agree that Greg let you finish? **Can’t really understand here…I think this is what was said…the mic and video cut in-and-out. It’s hard to read lips and hear. Trust me, I’ve listened to it many times to try and get it right. I think that’s what is said here.**
Avilo: I was agreeing with Idra, the Zergs do have the economy – so the Terran does lose.
Idra: Zergs have the economy if you’re fucking bad and let them have the economy. As I was telling QXC you play the bio style and you do it well, you’re aggressive and you expand behind just like the Zerg is doing which is possible and can be done if you’re not fucking terrible like you, then yes, you can have enough economy to match the Zergs tech switches. You can put up four starports with reactors and you can have a couple of ravens out and then you can deal with the air switch just fine – even if you don’t see it coming immediately or don’t know it’s coming before it’s made.
Avilo: alright, well without taking cheap shots at you like you just did at me, that’s exactly what people are arguing against. This queen buff lets you get that economy so Terran does lose. I agree with you Idra.
Idra: but that’s not what I said at all.
Avilo: but I believe that is what you said. You said that if…
Idra: this guy is a fucking imbecile I’m not gonna talk to him anymore.
Avilo: okay, well I believe that is what you said. If Zerg is able to get that economy established ---
**It’s at this point you hear Skype in the background. The same noise you hear when someone is either dropped from a call or leaves. QXC picks up the conversation right away, bringing the attention back to the argument at hand.
While going into another topic shortly after Avilo left, this is the conversation:
JP: Greg I’m so sorry by the way.
Idra: You’re a fucker.
InControl: You held out a lot longer than I thought possible. You are growing before our eyes my friend.
Once again, later in the episode, this is the conversation:
InControl: I wanna say sorry to Avilo. It was nice having Avilo on, I guess I’ll stop trying to take so many jabs at him. I was touched at the attempt of a real debate that he made until he started yelling at Greg about the way he was turning and stuff…but that was cool. Avilo I appreciate you and you’re a good little soldier for the Terran army.
JP: I do apologize for having to basically kill you on Skype Avilo, I did it for the better of the show. Hopefully you understood.
Now before I say anything about this, I just want to let everyone know I’m not out to start drama or anything and I’m taking the time to bash people. These are just my thoughts and constructive criticism for the show and future of ESports.
I should state that I am also aware that I may have misheard some statements, but I tried to listen very closely to the episode over and over to get it right.
I am also NOT going to go into the conversation topic, because that is not the reason for this article. I don’t care about balance or queens or Terrans or whatever. Again, that’s NOT the point of this article.
Now, I think that the conversation that isn’t mentioned above is also important. QXC and Idra talked for an hour about the same thing that Avilo tried to talk to Idra about. There was no swearing and it was a good argument. You can also take note that two people can argue without fighting. An argument doesn’t have to have shouting, swearing or blatant disrespect. The argument that preceded Avilo coming on the show had none of that.
Once Avilo came on the show, the first thing he said was how he appreciated being on the show. I also included some statements after, showing that no one else on the show said anything back. The first statement back was InControl talking about his hat. The first thing that should have been said should have came from JP. JP should have said something like, “Good to have you here Avilo, thanks for taking the time out of your day to join us.” A simple, yet very effective compliment back to a guest on your show is something that can go a long way. It show s that you care about guests as well as showing all the viewers that you care.
Avilo then asks Geoff a stupid question. This may be kind of confusing as to why this is a bad move on everyone’s part…but let me explain. It’s a bad move on Avilo’s part because he’s not a regular on the show. As a guest, I would prefer you to not ask questions about anything that isn’t SC related. Knowing that a lot of the other people on the show clearly don’t respect you, don’t give them ammo. What occurs after just shows the lack of experience of the others. Everyone, except for QXC could have made it better. Everyone else could have said, “Avilo this isn’t the time for that. I’m sorry, but if you would please continue on with your reasons why Zerg is so powerful right now, that would be better for the show.”
The statement above shows Avilo that SOTG is clearly not the place to ask such questions because, again, you aren’t a regular on the show. The pre-show banter is some of the best material, don’t get me wrong. I love when everyone laughs and has a good time. I love when Artosis talks about his breakfast or his Bran-Flakes Bars or when he makes himself a shark on his webcam, just to name a few. It’s not a bad thing to have non-SC related content, but make it a pre or post-show thing. This should also be noted for the guests of SOTG as well.
While Avilo was beginning to talk, JP searches for Avilo SC2 to put a picture under the black slot that would regularly have a webcam. What comes up first a picture of Avilo for an interview with gamereplays.org. This picture also just happens to have Avilo holding what looks like a stuffed animal of some sort, possibly a good luck charm that is referenced in the interview. Of course, this is the one that JP selects, instead of the other picture that comes up of Avilo under his TL Wiki site. This again, is starting to show poor choices when there are clearly better ones to make and adding fuel to the fire.
Later, Avilo mentions something very interesting. He says something about a player named luckyfool and his blog on TeamLiquid.net. Immediately you have InControl saying, “He missed that one,” as well as Idra adding a sarcastic comment about how he regularly reads his blog.
I’m not about to talk about how Idra needs to come down off of his throne and stop acting the way he does, but I will say that he needs to start respecting people. You can BM in matches because you’re pissed off that you lost or you can leave games without saying GG. That stuff doesn’t bother me. But when you are on a show that is important to the SC2 scene and gets a lot of viewers, you have to act like a grown up. Avilo was trying to make a statement that he’s not the only one who thinks this way and there are other people on the blogs of TeamLiquid that talk about strategy.
Avilo’s point was just because someone is not popular or even in Master’s league, doesn’t mean they don’t have good things to add to the game of StarCraft. You CAN’T, while on a popular show about SC2 or any other game for that matter, start bashing the ideas of others who aren’t as talented as you are! That’s the equivalent of a professional Baseball player immediately bashing a reporter based solely on the grounds that he or she doesn’t play in the major leagues. This is soooo bad for not only your image, but your teams image as well. How many people want to root and cheer for a team that bashes SC players in the diamond league?
Before I get to the end of the Avilo and the end of the episode, I want to make a couple additional comments. QXC was absolutely fantastic in this episode. He supported Avilo because he saw that Avilo was struggling a little bit to get his point across to Idra (which ultimately was the reason that made Idra so mad). He picked up the end of the conversation very well to help the episode move forward as well. Very nicely done. I’ll no doubt enjoy any episode that you are on!
Another comment I would like to make is the constant snickering and laughter. In the write up of the episode, I make it clear when JP and InControl laugh, sometimes out loud. Again, you have a guest on that you don’t like. Fine…I get it. But as the host of a popular show with lots of influence, I feel like it’s in the best interest of the show if you show some respect. I’m not sure what it was about, but I don’t think that that matters. I think it’s different if you don’t have a guest on the show or if you’re doing (my all time favorite) a drinking show.
*** I’m not trying to tell you how to act during your own show. Some may even see this is as jealousy. I want to make it clear that I’m not out to bash SOTG. I LOVE this show! I just found some things in this episode that bugged me and can be fixed. I hope that everyone can understand that I’m taking time out of my life to write this up to help out. I hope to encourage everyone to only get better at what they do.
Now, the fact that Avilo was losing or winning the argument doesn’t matter. The fact is, both Idra and Avilo tried to talk at the same time. Idra felt that he got cut off while trying to make a point, and told Avilo to shut the fuck up. I don’t even have to talk about how bad this really is. But I will anyway. This is really bad! It’s bad to the point where it stops being funny. It WAS funny a year ago watching videos of Idra raging in games. That’s different than blatant disrespect.
Getting mad during competition…who isn’t guilty of that?! That’s the Idra that everyone loves. This Idra is totally different. You can’t have this happen. The first person to blame is Idra. But then who stepped in at this point? Who didn’t see more of this coming?! JP could have also stepped in, stating about how the argument was going nowhere. That’s a GREAT way of cutting off the argument that was getting too heated.
InControl tried to step in, but maybe at the wrong time. After Avilo had already begun talking again, InControl cuts him off to defend his teammate who had already told Avilo to shut the fuck up. Defending the aggressor makes you look just as bad. Play to your strengths InControl! This would have been a PERFECT time for some of your humor! You could have said, “Hey everyone…ten points to me for having to listen to a TvZ debate for so long! Looks like I win the argument!” Do you see how this not only brings the attention back to you, but also calms everyone down? Doing these things will make for a much better show.
Now this is where I understand the frustration for Idra. Avilo is clearly not as good as Idra or QXC is when it comes to debating. Avilo started to say the same things over and over again and started to say things that Idra clearly didn’t say. This, however, gives Idra no right to call Avilo a fucking imbecile. You say something like, “This clearly isn’t going anywhere and I don’t feel like arguing anymore. InControl, what do you think of all of this?” Or…”This argument is making me mad. I don’t think my race is overpowered and that’s all I have to say about that.”
The first statement deflects the attention away from you, allowing you to calm down and regain your thoughts without snapping. The second statement ends the argument. Both statements are obviously better than what Idra said for obvious reasons.
JP drops Avilo from Skype. Really? Is that how you’re going to treat every guest who gets disrespected by someone on your show? Drop the person getting disrespected?! How can anyone want to have a heated discussion on your show now? If Idra swears at QXC because QXC makes a fantastic point, would you drop QXC because you don’t want to drop Idra? I really don’t understand this at all. Avilo said nothing, except being a little poor at debating, to warrant that kind of behavior. Taking the easy way out on this one was a bad choice.
InControl clearly wasn’t paying attention to the argument either. Whatever InControl thought that Avilo said to Idra was wrong. I’m not 100% sure what InControl said at the end of his statement, but it’s nowhere near accurate. Also, apologizing because you know you did something wrong is a good step in the right direction and I’m glad that an apology was made, even if it sounded half-hearted, before the end of the episode.
So what can we learn from all of this?
I hope that, with some practice, that SC players will get better at handling themselves in the spotlight. It’s very easy to get lost behind a computer screen and talk shit during a game – and then lose yourself once you are out of that game.
It’s hard to adjust to being the face of news in SC. It’s hard to have your conversations examined by people. I know that if I had an argument examined by someone, they would probably have harder criticisms for me! I’m just trying to make the ESports scene better, starting with the way we treat each other.
Gold, Diamond, Grand Master…it doesn’t matter.
EG, TL, fnatic, Dignitas,…it doesn’t matter.
I hope that I didn’t piss anyone off with this article. That wasn’t my intention. I hope that whatever happens, happens for the better of ESports. That’s my goal – helping ESports becoming the best that it can be. As long as ESports continues to put out good content, some big things will happen.
The huge transcription was unnecessary I feel, but that's personal preference perhaps. There will always be people that suck, there will always be people that are well articulated. You can't expect perfection out of everyone, especially those that don't have experience.
Stopped listening to incontrol when he said that Korean Terrans are doing well in the GSL Bad move from JP and what's even worse is when avilo is putting out a legitimate argument and they just snicker at him and cut him off. No respect at all and just rude.
I agree this belongs in the SotG thread, not it's own thread...
...but I also agree with what you're saying. I'm not even a fan of Avilo, but I still didn't find it appropriate to essentially bring him on just to try to make a joke of him under the pretense of trying to have a serious conversation.
(Like in the same way Mia Rose was brought on during the drunk episode and Incontrol simply just let loose with really inappropriate sex worker jokes. Great way to turn an amazing episode into just a jumble of awkward awfulness Incontrol).
What bothers me was how JP dropped him off the skype call. How hard can it be to say "this isn't going anywhere, thanks for coming on the show avilo blah blah" and then drop him? It confirms what I've always thought about JP though, not a great host by any stretch of the imagination...
New blood in the scene has no background on players like Avilo. Also, one SotG doesn't represent all of SC behaviour. This post is full of shit accusations.
On June 30 2012 13:05 Oiseaux wrote: I agree this belongs in the SotG thread, not it's own thread...
...but I also agree with what you're saying. I'm not even a fan of Avilo, but I still didn't find it appropriate to essentially bring him on just to try to make a joke of him under the pretense of trying to have a serious conversation.
(Like in the same way Mia Rose was brought on during the drunk episode and Incontrol simply just let loose with really inappropriate sex worker jokes. Great way to turn an amazing episode into just a jumble of awkward awfulness Incontrol).
Avilo asked to be on the show and the fans asked for it (because they knew this would happen).
On June 30 2012 12:56 Mortal wrote: The huge transcription was unnecessary I feel, but that's personal preference perhaps. There will always be people that suck, there will always be people that are well articulated. You can't expect perfection out of everyone, especially those that don't have experience.
I hope that they will learn from this experience. That's the key of getting better =)
Thanks for putting this together. I think we can all clearly see certain SC personalities have disrespected someone (Avilo), their employers, their audience and need to shut the hell up for a few weeks and get some good old self reflection
On June 30 2012 13:03 Jaxtyk wrote: Stopped listening to incontrol when he said that Korean Terrans are doing well in the GSL Bad move from JP and what's even worse is when avilo is putting out a legitimate argument and they just snicker at him and cut him off. No respect at all and just rude.
I agree that the snickering was just the worst. I really found that rude as well.
On June 30 2012 13:01 Renent wrote: Was a super good write up! I did enjoy the transcription as I was able to use it as a reference point. Thanks a lot!
On June 30 2012 12:54 NotAPro wrote: SC2 pros turn out to be human. News at 11.
Also really unnecessary to drag this out of the SoTG thread.
What's unnecessary is your response. I think this incident is deserving of its own thread, particularly because the OP is discussing a trend in behavior and not the show specifically. Also, why should we have to dig through pages of an already huge thread to discuss a particular topic which, although relevant, is not entirely based upon the show itself. Oh, and your attempt at a joke was horrendous.
That being said, I think avilo's guest appearance was handled incredibly poorly. He raised strong, reasonable points and was constantly answered by disregard or ad hominem. He also showed respect to the show and its hosts and received none in return. I haven't been a fan of the show since its inception, but this certainly turned me off even further.
On June 30 2012 13:08 Kluey wrote: New blood in the scene has no background on players like Avilo. Also, one SotG doesn't represent all of SC behaviour. This post is full of shit accusations.
Did you even read the post? What I got from it is that the popular "faces of SC2" could act a little more mature when they conduct themselves in front of a couple thousand viewers.
This was merely constructive criticism, but the title is quite misleading.
I feel bad for saying this, because I really like Team EG and all, and scoots always says to buy there stuff, so I do it. But in all honestly Idra, and incontrol were really rude. And frankly State of the Game is suppose to be the starcraft "NFL live" Now I am fine with a little banter, but honestly Avilo I feel bad bad for you, you brought up good points, but Idra and incontrol bashed you. And I hate to say this, but the show with QXC and catz talking about the game was actually the best episode in a long time. I am not saying lets hunt them down on a witch hunt. I just want a more respectful show. and Idra, even though you won't read this and don't give a damn, I just want to say Everyone is entitled to there opinion, but at the end of the day you don't need to hate on someone for saying the things they do. It's really simple...The idea of respect and I think we all need to have this idea in mind. And Jp, I really like what you do, but for god's sake man....be a host and control the quest speakers your job is to moderate.
Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
Thx for the transcript. I didn't watch the show so I couldn't properly judge their behaviors but after reading I think it was a bit unfair to Avilo. I feel like they invited him on the show but didn't actually want to listen to any of his input. I also feel like the group had too much pro Idra bias so whatever his anger resulted in the other members following along. It wasn't really a discussion at that point
Mind you, i have no love for Avilo, i love Geoff, and I love Sotg. I even enjoy IdrA from time to time, but this was reminiscent of an O'Reilly interview, if you want to be considered the most important podcast in starcraft 2, you have to uphold some professionalism, try to remain unbiased, i dont care if you badmouth him before or after, but in the pseudo interview you have to respect everyone so your VIEWERS can decide for themselves. Hope SotG apologizes or something, because it was a bit immature.
Avilo is known as a generic mediocre Terran who complains all day about P/Z. Why is it a surprise that iNcontroL, who probably prides himself in not complaining about balance on such an extreme degree, treats him as he did?
You also forget SOTG is in part a comedy show, and making fun of someone who is a balance-whiner WHILE he is complaining about balance is actually quite funny. You know, just how iNc makes fun of Artosis? yeah, they do that sometimes. Settle the fk down IMO.
From the parts I skimmed (it was long ok?) It seems like you are angry at SOTG for being unprofessional and rude to Avilo. I think that was the whole reason Avilo was brought on: IdrA and Avilo having a uncivilized argument for the entertainment factor first and to inform second. This is fine to me. Professionalism has it's place in SC2 but it's quite frankly boring to have it all of the time and drama is delicious
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
Yeah but SOTG is like "NFL live" of starcraft 2. What I am saying is it is one of the most watched shows about gaming, and they should be a leader. Granted the show has like no major sponsers and all, but I feel like the hosts disrespected the guy for no reason. JP should have been a better moderator.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
...
Wow are you fucking serious? I guess the pitchforks are officially out.
For the record, yes, I only skimmed your article. But is this really necessary? I think the way this community responds to certain issues is rather stupid and mostly all just big overreactions that don't help the issue. If you arent going to be part of the solution, then don't become a part of the problem. Bringing more attention to the issue is stupid and quite frankly any adult in the "real world" would probably think that trying to call this out is ...stupid. They would probably just say, "Get over it and shut the fuck up."
But that is just my opinion and what I think when I see this type of article come up, because really we aren't the government and we aren't in church kids.
Outstanding thread. I'm very happy that you put forth the effort to make this and I'm really happy that I don't watch that show.
I think Avilo got shafted hard and I'm pissed at everyone there who wasn't fair to him.
QXC got a shit ton of more respect from me out of this, but I kind of wish that he had left the show as well after Avilo was removed in protest of the shit that just went down. I can't blame him for being quiet about it, though.
On June 30 2012 13:05 Oiseaux wrote: I agree this belongs in the SotG thread, not it's own thread...
...but I also agree with what you're saying. I'm not even a fan of Avilo, but I still didn't find it appropriate to essentially bring him on just to try to make a joke of him under the pretense of trying to have a serious conversation.
(Like in the same way Mia Rose was brought on during the drunk episode and Incontrol simply just let loose with really inappropriate sex worker jokes. Great way to turn an amazing episode into just a jumble of awkward awfulness Incontrol).
Avilo asked to be on the show and the fans asked for it (because they knew this would happen).
So it's ok for them to lower themselves to the jackass masses? (answer: no)
On June 30 2012 13:05 Oiseaux wrote: I agree this belongs in the SotG thread, not it's own thread...
...but I also agree with what you're saying. I'm not even a fan of Avilo, but I still didn't find it appropriate to essentially bring him on just to try to make a joke of him under the pretense of trying to have a serious conversation.
(Like in the same way Mia Rose was brought on during the drunk episode and Incontrol simply just let loose with really inappropriate sex worker jokes. Great way to turn an amazing episode into just a jumble of awkward awfulness Incontrol).
Sorry, I didn't know there was a SotG thread. I am not new to SC...only TL =(
The drunk episode, except for the Mia Rose part, was amazing! But you're right, then they totally ruin it with inappropriate jokes and self-demeaning behavior.
Disrespecting someone who comes on your show is quite unprofessional. As people have said, they could have at the very least ended the conversation better by cutting Avilo off and thanking him for coming on.
I give props to QXC for acting reasonably professionally, but it was a bit disheartening to see Incontrol and Idra acting like a couple of sophmores teasing a freshman. SotG has and will always be a very narrow slice of the SC2 scene. It's completely dominated by their regulars and if you aren't from that circle your opinion doesn't really matter to them. I imagine it's like trying to interview with Fox News, the information is so tightly controlled and they have no problems dumping all over you to get a reaction before they cut you off.
On June 30 2012 13:27 Aulisemia wrote: I imagine it's like trying to interview with Fox News, the information is so tightly controlled and they have no problems dumping all over you to get a reaction before they cut you off.
You said it.
SOTG : Staracraft community :: FOX News : American people
(and this is totally an exaggeration, though it still is pretty bad)
On June 30 2012 13:08 Kluey wrote: New blood in the scene has no background on players like Avilo. Also, one SotG doesn't represent all of SC behaviour. This post is full of shit accusations.
I didn't need background on Avilo for this post. The fact that he wasn't given any respect off the start of the interview doesn't look good at all. I also never said that SotG represents all SC behavior. Also, I didn't accuse anyone of anything, except being disrespectful to someone that I thought didn't deserve it.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He's known to be a TvZ/TvP whiner without any particularly amazing results.
edit: since I grabbed the next page I'll use this page to say that this thread is ridiculous. Not just the whole '1 bad example = SC COMMUNITY IS GOING BACKWARDS' but people that assume they somehow have the power to 'axe SOTG' or whatever. Jesus fucking christ have some common sense people.
On June 30 2012 13:03 Jaxtyk wrote: Stopped listening to incontrol when he said that Korean Terrans are doing well in the GSL Bad move from JP and what's even worse is when avilo is putting out a legitimate argument and they just snicker at him and cut him off. No respect at all and just rude.
Well... Terrans ARE doing well in GSL. There were more numbers of terrans in GSL Ro16 than protoss or zerg, All getting past Zergs that aren't pushovers, like curious or leenock.
On June 30 2012 13:09 OneBaseKing wrote: Why is idra so hostile towards avilo
Also around what time is when the tvz discussion comes in the vid?
I'm not really sure. Idra has been known to be like this at times. At a lot of times. The TvZ discussion is around the 30 minute mark, but then having Avilo come in around the 70 minute mark.
Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He's known to be a TvZ/TvP whiner without any particularly amazing results.
I dont know about Avilo so wondering why he is known as a whiner?
Eh, because he whines a ton in LR threads / reddit threads? Now mostly TvZ but usually TvP pre-patch. He's gotten temp banned from TL a few times for it as well I think.
I don't tune into SotG, so the transcript was enlightening. I didn't tune into SotG because last time I checked it had this behavior. Guess I won't be tuning in anytime soon.
This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Want to know how a mainstream show would have handled that?
On June 30 2012 12:54 NotAPro wrote: SC2 pros turn out to be human. News at 11.
Also really unnecessary to drag this out of the SoTG thread.
What's unnecessary is your response. I think this incident is deserving of its own thread, particularly because the OP is discussing a trend in behavior and not the show specifically. Also, why should we have to dig through pages of an already huge thread to discuss a particular topic which, although relevant, is not entirely based upon the show itself. Oh, and your attempt at a joke was horrendous.
That being said, I think avilo's guest appearance was handled incredibly poorly. He raised strong, reasonable points and was constantly answered by disregard or ad hominem. He also showed respect to the show and its hosts and received none in return. I haven't been a fan of the show since its inception, but this certainly turned me off even further.
Thank you very much. I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. =)
On June 30 2012 13:12 chip789 wrote: No this is good for the community, Drama is entertaining. Entertaining = more viewers.
Any drama is good drama. This quote can't be more false. A lot of people who think that just because you're getting views, doesn't mean it's for the right reasons. I feel like SC needs to stick with being a model for ESports, not gaining popularity because of bad behavior.
Im not at all an Avilo fan. I've watched his stream sometimes cause he playes an intresting terran but he is a balancewhiner extraordinare and I just cant stand that.
That being said, his visit on the show was him being made fun of and that was completly uncalled for and unprofessional in a way that gets me to not want to watch the show. If your not going to take someone seriously and treat them respectfully dont invite them on the show. Atleast not unless they first behave poorly, something Avilo really didnt do.
It's their show, it garners viewers like everyone complaining in this thread, and if you don't like it, stop watching. There is no Esports internet stream commissioning board that is going to shut down SotG because of a spat like this. Nor would I want there to be one anyways. Idra is a thick, arrogant, BM guy, but at the end of the day he's one of SotG main members. The JP/Incontrol/Idra trio can do whatever the hell they want on their show. And to think, I thought the Esports witch hunt metaphor was an exaggeration.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
Not really, he just complains about balance alot in TvZ and TvP but I thnk complianing about TvZ now kinda fine since it kinda globally considered tha zerg "might" be a bit to strong. Weither this is true or not isnt confirmed yet/
Avilo was brought onto the show for comedic purposes. Though it was under the guise of a "balance discussion", I'm fairly certain that JP and Idra and everyone else knew that up front that nothing good was going to come from it.
QXC was there to represent the Terran viewpoint, not Avilo.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
I think we have different ideas as to what SOTG is and what roles it is there to fufill. When I tune in to SOTG I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with "the guys" for a little while and laugh at their jokes. "Serious" content and in-depth analysis is good on top of the humour. Why can't "serious" content be discussed while making jokes?
So much of the hate on SOTG seems to stem from the idea that they prioritize silly jokes and stories over hard analysis, but that fine to me. In fact, I want them to prioritize it that way
On June 30 2012 13:37 TENTHST wrote: Avilo was brought onto the show for comedic purposes. Though it was under the guise of a "balance discussion", I'm fairly certain that JP and Idra and everyone else knew that up front that nothing good was going to come from it.
QXC was there to represent the Terran viewpoint, not Avilo.
Then they fucked up as it wasn't comedy but an attempt at humiliation
Well, not to say that the others handled it well, but Avilo himself did by far the rudest thing on the show. He put words in Idra’s mouth and kept insisting after Idra made clear that wasn’t what he meant. Twice. After that, I could easily imagine backstory that justified how they treated him to some extent, even if I haven’t seen any of it.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
You can make the same argument. Idra isn't even close to the same level as DRG, Symbol, Nestea or even Stephano. And even DRG is saying how strong Zerg are right now and that this is his chance to win a GSL.
And it's not just Avilo saying this, MKP, MMA, MVP all have expressed concerns on how Zerg is AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
I think we have different ideas as to what SOTG is and what roles it is there to fufill. When I tune in to SOTG I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with "the guys" for a little while and laugh at their jokes. "Serious" content and in-depth analysis is good on top of the humour. Why can't "serious" content be discussed while making jokes?
So much of the hate on SOTG seems to stem from the idea that they prioritize silly jokes and stories over hard analysis, but that fine to me. In fact, I want them to prioritize it that way
As i said in a previous post joking is great. But when you are doing that you have to be careful because it isn't just your friends chatting it is also 10k people and humiliating someone for a cheap laugh is not acceptable..period
EG i think has been making some misteps latly, but this article i think is centered aggreivly against them, avilo is just as noteworthy as QXC or whoever else. so dont blatently disrespect him. WHAT TICKED ME OFF WAS THE COMMENTS ON LUCKYFOOL. Blatent disrespect, and he IS SUCH a contributer to the sc2 scene. and idra smh
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
You can make the same argument. Idra isn't even close to the same level as DRG, Symbol, Nestea or even Stephano. And even DRG is saying how strong Zerg are right now and that this is his chance to win a GSL.
And it's not just Avilo saying this, MKP, MMA, MVP all have expressed concerns on how Zerg is AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
Does anyone really consider Idra a good source for balance discussion?
And "only the best/highest players can talk about balance" is a pointless argument, because then only 5 people can talk about balance and none of them have a show like this (also, none of them speak decent english, except maybe Stephano)
On June 30 2012 13:36 SwizzY wrote: It's their show, it garners viewers like everyone complaining in this thread, and if you don't like it, stop watching. There is no Esports internet stream commissioning board that is going to shut down SotG because of a spat like this. Nor would I want there to be one anyways. Idra is a thick, arrogant, BM guy, but at the end of the day he's one of SotG main members. The JP/Incontrol/Idra trio can do whatever the hell they want on their show. And to think, I thought the Esports witch hunt metaphor was an exaggeration.
Obviously it's their show and they can run it how they want. They can also take constructive criticism from it's viewers and potentially make make their show more enjoyable for wider audiences, therefore expanding it's audience. No one is trying to argue it isn't their choice on how to run the show. No one is trying to shut them down, if anything the critics are trying to help them.
And finally, the "witch hunt" line just proves how stupidly sensationalist your post it.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He has been whining about balance since the beta (in the most annoying ways possible). When he plays IdrA on ladder he does stupid turtle builds just to waste IdrA's time (mass PF/tank in which he has no chance of whining but results in 40min game). He has been criticizing SotG and Incontrol recently in the TL Thread. People who do not closely follow NA scene/players may think he is some innocent player who did nothing deserve his treatment on SotG (not saying the SotG hosts were justified in their actions), but there is a reason Greg lost his temper so quickly.
On June 30 2012 13:13 HeeroFX wrote: I feel bad for saying this, because I really like Team EG and all, and scoots always says to buy there stuff, so I do it. But in all honestly Idra, and incontrol were really rude. And frankly State of the Game is suppose to be the starcraft "NFL live" Now I am fine with a little banter, but honestly Avilo I feel bad bad for you, you brought up good points, but Idra and incontrol bashed you. And I hate to say this, but the show with QXC and catz talking about the game was actually the best episode in a long time. I am not saying lets hunt them down on a witch hunt. I just want a more respectful show. and Idra, even though you won't read this and don't give a damn, I just want to say Everyone is entitled to there opinion, but at the end of the day you don't need to hate on someone for saying the things they do. It's really simple...The idea of respect and I think we all need to have this idea in mind. And Jp, I really like what you do, but for god's sake man....be a host and control the quest speakers your job is to moderate.
It's okay! I LOVE EG as well! I follow a lot of them on Twitter, as well as JP! It's okay to be upset with some of the things that they do or say. That's another point of my article. You have to learn from these experiences and grow from them. I wish for SotG to lead the way in excellence and not be okay with mediocrity.
The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications. I've also heard things about avilo being very BM on ladder and such. Not sure if those are true, but they usually do come hand-in-hand with heavy balance whining, so it's pretty likely.
LOL there is a poll about Axe'img SotG and kicking a player off... LOLOLOLOL who thinks of these things. People realize this is a decision that ONLY JP could make... and do you really think he is going to give a damn about the whines and complaints of.... 16 people? LOLOL
I DEMAND THAT BARACK OBOMA STEP DOWN! We had a poll on the internet,,, and 200 people are not happy. WOOT now he wont be president anymore!
(i dont dislike obama just making an example/point)... making a poll with options that you cant provide is a waste of time.... maybe next time u should make a poll about people handing you free money.... option A: 100 dollars per person. Option B. 1000 dollars per person. Option C: you have to give me all of your money! if your going to make a dreamer poll which you think will give you power you don't have.. reach for more than creative control over a SC2 webshow.
on a side note... who is luckyfool? Why are people acting like everyone should know his name? I have followed since sc2 beta and dont know that name?
Also saying Avilo is on the same level as idra or qxc is insane... How many matches has he won in korea? or at mlg? or at dreamhack? or in the nasl? the list goes on and on....
On June 30 2012 13:12 billiebrightside wrote: Can someone link me to the spot where Avilo was in SOTG, please? I missed it :/
Can I post links to youtube videos here? Is that allowed? I'm sorry, I am not up-to-date on TL forum rules. Just go to youtube and search for state of the game episode 72 =)
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He has been whining about balance since the beta (in the most annoying ways possible). When he plays IdrA on ladder he does stupid turtle builds just to waste IdrA's time (mass PF/tank in which he has no chance of whining but results in 40min game). He has been criticizing SotG and Incontrol recently in the TL Thread. People who do not closely follow NA scene/players may think he is some innocent player who did nothing deserve his treatment on SotG (not saying the SotG hosts were justified in their actions), but there is a reason Greg lost his temper so quickly.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He has been whining about balance since the beta (in the most annoying ways possible). When he plays IdrA on ladder he does stupid turtle builds just to waste IdrA's time (mass PF/tank in which he has no chance of whining but results in 40min game). He has been criticizing SotG and Incontrol recently in the TL Thread. People who do not closely follow NA scene/players may think he is some innocent player who did nothing deserve his treatment on SotG (not saying the SotG hosts were justified in their actions), but there is a reason Greg lost his temper so quickly.
I'm not defending Avilo cause that's stupid crap but if I was IdrA, I'd just leave. 40 minutes is not worth beating someone who's just there to annoy you. As a pro-gamer, it's not like ladder rank is really that important at all
most important question of this thread: who the fuck cares?
i'm sick of these witch hunts people try to start. people like the OP are only trying to stir up drama. let SOTG be what it is, if you don't like it, don't watch it. but coming on here trying to criticize teams for not being upright gentlemen is retarded. it's a fucking videogame.
So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
Anyone who hasn't experienced Avilo's blatant BM, whining and idiocy (not just in SC2 but for many years in other RTS too) probably shares the view of the OP. I agree they should have handled it better but the fact that it's Avilo makes me not really give a shit. He's one of the few progamers who will regularly msg opponents after tournament matches to call them bad and accuse their race of being overpowered.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
Not really...the crux of my post is to learn from experiences and to get better from them. I have listened to the past 30 or so episodes and never wrote about any of them. It's quite a shame that SOTG regulars can't seem to have steady results, though.
On June 30 2012 13:46 HolyArrow wrote: The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications.
Going by this line of reasoning, SotG shouldn't have even brought him on in the first place because there would simply be no reason to bring him on. But that then leads to the reason as to why he was brought on, and that was to simply shit on him.
whine posts are hurting esports... we are never going to be the picture perfect hippies who love everyone that everyone dreams us to be. the nfl isnt, the nba isnt, soccer/football isnt, etc....
seriously people are entitled to have their opinions and to say them.... the crying and getting our feelings hurt over honesty is mind numbingly boring... people like this are begging for a scene where noone says anything but "gg" and "thank you to my sponsors and fans" because they get hunted down for having any opinions...
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He has been whining about balance since the beta (in the most annoying ways possible). When he plays IdrA on ladder he does stupid turtle builds just to waste IdrA's time (mass PF/tank in which he has no chance of whining but results in 40min game). He has been criticizing SotG and Incontrol recently in the TL Thread. People who do not closely follow NA scene/players may think he is some innocent player who did nothing deserve his treatment on SotG (not saying the SotG hosts were justified in their actions), but there is a reason Greg lost his temper so quickly.
It's funny because turtling is his strats against zergs.
Read the thread. Thank you very much OP. It was just an awful show, nothing else to say.
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
This to you is usual e-sports behavior?! Then I for one don't want to be a part of e-sports. Call it unprofessional or disrespect, I don't care. The fact that you go on a show about SC and call another player a fucking imbecile and tell him to shut the fuck up is mind-blowing to me. For people to sponsor that kind of behavior is also just as mind-blowing. If this was any other major sport, that player would be issuing an apology.
On June 30 2012 13:49 PiGStarcraft wrote: Anyone who hasn't experienced Avilo's blatant BM, whining and idiocy (not just in SC2 but for many years in other RTS too) probably shares the view of the OP. I agree they should have handled it better but the fact that it's Avilo makes me not really give a shit. He's one of the few progamers who will regularly msg opponents after tournament matches to call them bad and accuse their race of being overpowered.
On June 30 2012 13:49 VirgilSC2 wrote: So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
I'm not saying it was right to treat him like that, but the way the world works is that IdrA is extremely popular, so he can do what he wants without too many repercussions. avilo doesn't have the luxury of such popularity, so if he annoys people with constant balance whining, there really isn't much to compensate, and thus, he'll become disliked. Not to mention that IdrA's BM/balance whining is often at least paired with dry humor, so it's better received.
On June 30 2012 13:49 VirgilSC2 wrote: So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
Well said Virgil, glad to see a legit name with that opinion.
SOTG isn't very good anymore, but it's the only thing out there. They have complete bias and one sided arguements, like when they used to have all protoss representatives. Now they are EG heavy.
On June 30 2012 13:46 HolyArrow wrote: The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications.
Going by this line of reasoning, SotG shouldn't have even brought him on in the first place because there would simply be no reason to bring him on. But that then leads to the reason as to why he was brought on, and that was to simply shit on him.
I heard that he wanted to be on. It's not like he was invited and generously decided to grace them with his presence. Didn't Incontrol mention that he was asking to be put on the show? The way I see it, he requested that they include him, so they did, and then he proceeded to get shit on. He didn't deserve to have that happen to him but he did put himself into that situation. It's clear that IdrA and perhaps the rest of the cast don't really like avilo much, so it was a pretty stupid move for him to ask to be put on the show. It's like asking to hang out with a group of people who all dislike you. Clearly, things won't end well.
On June 30 2012 13:18 AngryFarmer wrote: Thx for the transcript. I didn't watch the show so I couldn't properly judge their behaviors but after reading I think it was a bit unfair to Avilo. I feel like they invited him on the show but didn't actually want to listen to any of his input. I also feel like the group had too much pro Idra bias so whatever his anger resulted in the other members following along. It wasn't really a discussion at that point
The entire show was pro-Idra. Even QXC was being careful not to step on Idra's toes a little bit. It was never a discussion with Avilo and I feel like it could have been a really really good argument about the queen buff.
On June 30 2012 13:46 HolyArrow wrote: The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications.
Going by this line of reasoning, SotG shouldn't have even brought him on in the first place because there would simply be no reason to bring him on. But that then leads to the reason as to why he was brought on, and that was to simply shit on him.
I heard that he wanted to be on. It's not like he was invited and generously decided to grace them with his presence. Didn't Incontrol mention that he was asking to be put on the show?
I think you're not understanding his point. He was asked to be put in. They don't like Avilo, thus, they had no reason to invite him to the show other than to mock him.
JP, Idra, Incontrol and the rest of the gang are a clique. Cliques stay together and back each other up. Unfortunately, there's one or more ass holes in there so they make all the people in it smell like shit. I stopped watching sotg long ago.
I enjoyed the transcript because I probably wouldnt have watched the video. I thought that Idra was losing the argument, contradicted himself and acked like an ass hole when he knew he wasn't winning. There's really no way to punish their behavior besides going to the extreme and emailing their sponsors, intel, kingston, steelseries, sapphire, that's why they continue to act like they're above everyone else and act like little kids.
On June 30 2012 13:46 HolyArrow wrote: The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications.
Going by this line of reasoning, SotG shouldn't have even brought him on in the first place because there would simply be no reason to bring him on. But that then leads to the reason as to why he was brought on, and that was to simply shit on him.
I heard that he wanted to be on. It's not like he was invited and generously decided to grace them with his presence. Didn't Incontrol mention that he was asking to be put on the show?
I'm sorry, but I'm missing the part where Avilo asked to be on the show so he could be mocked.
On June 30 2012 13:18 PlacidPanda wrote: Mind you, i have no love for Avilo, i love Geoff, and I love Sotg. I even enjoy IdrA from time to time, but this was reminiscent of an O'Reilly interview, if you want to be considered the most important podcast in starcraft 2, you have to uphold some professionalism, try to remain unbiased, i dont care if you badmouth him before or after, but in the pseudo interview you have to respect everyone so your VIEWERS can decide for themselves. Hope SotG apologizes or something, because it was a bit immature.
That's a great take! I have no prior knowledge of Avilo before watching this episode and I love SOTG and everyone on it! Even Idra gets me sometimes with his laugh. But I completely agree with upholding some sort of professionalism. You have to if you want to be considered an important part in the SC community.
On June 30 2012 13:13 Wildmoon wrote: I am disguted by how rude they were toward Avilo.
So was I.
Personally, I feel it's really unhealthy for progamers to be a part of communities like Team Liquid. I've seen pro gamers who worry way too much about what the community thinks about them, get bloated egos, take advantage of people, etc. In the case of this show, the members of the show probably felt that because they were more prominent figures within the community they don't need to respect or at least show respect on the show. It happens time and time again, and the sad part it's eventually covered up with some BS statement like so and so is a fantastic player and fantastic person, blah blah. Most SC2 personalities these days I feel have little respect for the community, and what they show most of the time is fake.
The people who are writing these things and just completely turning a blind eye to the logic that was used by Idra prior to this show are seriously pissing me off.
Are you seriously so dumb that you cannot understand, first off, that it IS JP's show, and it IS NOT sponsored by anyone. Asserting this "standard" onto how he wants to conduct his own show is absurd. Secondly, the statement of "it's really rude to do xxx to Avilo" is so mind boggling. Did you even listen to Avilo in this "debate"? All he did was come on, whine to the players without taking Idra's points into consideration, unlike QXC, attempt to turn around what Idra said, and then flat out talk over him. If you've ever actually been in a debate or had a meaningful conversation in your life you don't just talk on top of other people; and to be honest, if I was the show host and an invited a person who couldn't come on and articulate themself in a way that was beneficial to the debate, while at the same time, just rehashing the same points and sticking to one "gotcha" point I would have dropped them just like JP did.
Now, this isn't to say that I don't agree about the balance complaints Avilo was attempting to make. And I feel rightly so, that there are indeed some problems in TvZ that cannot be as easily explained as Idra made it out to be. But, when you objectively look back on what Idra was saying, even before Avilo came on, that he didn't want him on the show and then Idra tells him off and you blame the show for "being rude" it really just bugs the hell out of me. You should be happy they even let Avilo on the show in the first place knowing that it would more than likely happen. They did it for fun, they had their fun, and yet people seem to get these stupid ideas that the show is completely bias and hateful towards people like Avilo. No, the truth of the matter is, Avilo doesn't fully understand what he's talking about because hes not a top tier foreign pro and the conduct he brought to the show was simply an instigation upon what had already been brought up. If he can't bring anything to the debate, or cannot conduct meaningful advances to the debate what did you think would happen after he was on for 10 minutes?
It's not as big of a deal as you people are making it out to be, and it makes zero sense to me how you can objectively stand up for Avilo in this showing. This is coming from someone who has many LgN friends, and I fully respect Avilo as well, but seriously, you're just being irrational if you are attempting to cry loud enough that this is "disprespect" and needs to be brought to forefront of the community. Get over yourselves.
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
This to you is usual e-sports behavior?! Then I for one don't want to be a part of e-sports. Call it unprofessional or disrespect, I don't care. The fact that you go on a show about SC and call another player a fucking imbecile and tell him to shut the fuck up is mind-blowing to me. For people to sponsor that kind of behavior is also just as mind-blowing. If this was any other major sport, that player would be issuing an apology.
Oh no! Someones being rude over the internet? Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me? This isn't fucking the NFL or the NBA or any body of sports that will fine you THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for being a jack ass. This is a COMMUNITY RUN SHOW for a VIDEO GAME. This fucking mantra of "hurr durr esports must be professional" is really fucking annoying.
Oh man, I can't wait until the days when SC2 pros talk exactly like SC:BW pros... Thanking their teams, their parents, and their fans while mindlessly spewing the same lines about how good their opponent is and how hard they practiced... yadda yadda yadda. I want people to be themselves, for better or worse. Save outraged posts for things that deserve them.
On June 30 2012 13:19 -Exalt- wrote: Avilo is known as a generic mediocre Terran who complains all day about P/Z. Why is it a surprise that iNcontroL, who probably prides himself in not complaining about balance on such an extreme degree, treats him as he did?
You also forget SOTG is in part a comedy show, and making fun of someone who is a balance-whiner WHILE he is complaining about balance is actually quite funny. You know, just how iNc makes fun of Artosis? yeah, they do that sometimes. Settle the fk down IMO.
The surprise comes from the fact that he holds a position on one of the most important podcasts about SC and he laughed at the guy. SOTG is anything but funny when Idra is swearing and people are making fun of others. It's funny when iNc makes fun of Artosis because there is no hatred behind it. iNc was not making fun of Avilo's hummus. Do you see how that's not humor, it's disrespect.
On June 30 2012 13:46 HolyArrow wrote: The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications.
Going by this line of reasoning, SotG shouldn't have even brought him on in the first place because there would simply be no reason to bring him on. But that then leads to the reason as to why he was brought on, and that was to simply shit on him.
I heard that he wanted to be on. It's not like he was invited and generously decided to grace them with his presence. Didn't Incontrol mention that he was asking to be put on the show?
I'm sorry, but I'm missing the part where Avilo asked to be on the show so he could be mocked.
I never said he asked to be on the show so he could be mocked. I'm merely saying that he asked to be on the show, period. And the reason I said that was because your post gave me the impression that you thought Avilo was asked to be brought on to the show, rather than Avilo being brought on by his own request. I think that's an important factor to consider because the way I see it, what occurred on the show becomes much worse if someone else asked Avilo to come on, rather than Avilo inviting himself on.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
I think we have different ideas as to what SOTG is and what roles it is there to fufill. When I tune in to SOTG I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with "the guys" for a little while and laugh at their jokes. "Serious" content and in-depth analysis is good on top of the humour. Why can't "serious" content be discussed while making jokes?
So much of the hate on SOTG seems to stem from the idea that they prioritize silly jokes and stories over hard analysis, but that fine to me. In fact, I want them to prioritize it that way
As i said in a previous post joking is great. But when you are doing that you have to be careful because it isn't just your friends chatting it is also 10k people and humiliating someone for a cheap laugh is not acceptable..period
I agree they were being a little mean to Avilo, more mean than they probably should have, but I was addressing a general sentiment towards SOTG I have been noticing that I wanted argue against. Then again, I am a strange person.
A little off-topic rant: I can't stand watching sportscenter or really anything on ESPN. Reporting sports news is great and highlights are great, but it's just so boring to me the way they present it. I want sportscenter on HBO with penis jokes and swearing while they report the same news. People on sportscenter are boring as ass. American football commentary is boring as ass compared to SC commentary because SC casters, in addition to not dealing with the FCC, aren't bound by the same "professionalism" that those guys are. This is the greatest Day[9] cast ever because he could just fuck around and it made me happy.
On June 30 2012 13:19 -Exalt- wrote: Avilo is known as a generic mediocre Terran who complains all day about P/Z. Why is it a surprise that iNcontroL, who probably prides himself in not complaining about balance on such an extreme degree, treats him as he did?
You also forget SOTG is in part a comedy show, and making fun of someone who is a balance-whiner WHILE he is complaining about balance is actually quite funny. You know, just how iNc makes fun of Artosis? yeah, they do that sometimes. Settle the fk down IMO.
The surprise comes from the fact that he holds a position on one of the most important podcasts about SC and he laughed at the guy. SOTG is anything but funny when Idra is swearing and people are making fun of others. It's funny when iNc makes fun of Artosis because there is no hatred behind it. iNc was not making fun of Avilo's hummus. Do you see how that's not humor, it's disrespect.
Yeah, but it's on the internet so it's okay to be disrespectful right? Also, e-sports is hardly professional so that's all the more reason to be a rude little dickwad online..
On June 30 2012 13:20 rockon1215 wrote: From the parts I skimmed (it was long ok?) It seems like you are angry at SOTG for being unprofessional and rude to Avilo. I think that was the whole reason Avilo was brought on: IdrA and Avilo having a uncivilized argument for the entertainment factor first and to inform second. This is fine to me. Professionalism has it's place in SC2 but it's quite frankly boring to have it all of the time and drama is delicious
Sorry for making it too long =)
I agree with the part where you say that SC is boring with no drama. Bringing your baggage and airing it out on your professional podcast is not the way to do it, in my opinion.
On June 30 2012 13:36 SwizzY wrote: It's their show, it garners viewers like everyone complaining in this thread, and if you don't like it, stop watching. There is no Esports internet stream commissioning board that is going to shut down SotG because of a spat like this. Nor would I want there to be one anyways. Idra is a thick, arrogant, BM guy, but at the end of the day he's one of SotG main members. The JP/Incontrol/Idra trio can do whatever the hell they want on their show. And to think, I thought the Esports witch hunt metaphor was an exaggeration.
Obviously it's their show and they can run it how they want. They can also take constructive criticism from it's viewers and potentially make make their show more enjoyable for wider audiences, therefore expanding it's audience. No one is trying to argue it isn't their choice on how to run the show. No one is trying to shut them down, if anything the critics are trying to help them.
And finally, the "witch hunt" line just proves how stupidly sensationalist your post it.
"SC Behavior Going Backwards Instead of Forwards" There is a poll on Page 2 with one of the options as: "Show is fine but Incontrol should depart".... FROM THE SHOW HE HELPED CREATE? They invited Avilo on their show, who argued with a main cast member to the point where he had to be booted, just after Idra/qxc had a very detailed, mannered, and incredibly whine-free talk about the exact same thing. Critics are trying to help them? Really? Because from the posts I've seen, everyone is either shitting on Idra, shitting on Incontrol, shitting on JP, shitting on the show, shitting on avilo, or like me where we don't really give two shits either way and feel it's a great show regardless.
I'm not going to jump at your obvious rage bait in your final line, but with SotG main thread + 2 subsidiary threads about the exact same thing, I think my final line is perfectly applicable.
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
This to you is usual e-sports behavior?! Then I for one don't want to be a part of e-sports. Call it unprofessional or disrespect, I don't care. The fact that you go on a show about SC and call another player a fucking imbecile and tell him to shut the fuck up is mind-blowing to me. For people to sponsor that kind of behavior is also just as mind-blowing. If this was any other major sport, that player would be issuing an apology.
Oh no! Someones being rude over the internet? Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me? This isn't fucking the NFL or the NBA or any body of sports that will fine you THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for being a jack ass. This is a COMMUNITY RUN SHOW for a VIDEO GAME. This fucking mantra of "hurr durr esports must be professional" is really fucking annoying.
Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you can be a jackass.
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
This to you is usual e-sports behavior?! Then I for one don't want to be a part of e-sports. Call it unprofessional or disrespect, I don't care. The fact that you go on a show about SC and call another player a fucking imbecile and tell him to shut the fuck up is mind-blowing to me. For people to sponsor that kind of behavior is also just as mind-blowing. If this was any other major sport, that player would be issuing an apology.
Oh no! Someones being rude over the internet? Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me? This isn't fucking the NFL or the NBA or any body of sports that will fine you THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for being a jack ass. This is a COMMUNITY RUN SHOW for a VIDEO GAME. This fucking mantra of "hurr durr esports must be professional" is really fucking annoying.
Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you can be a jackass.
And just because some is being a jackass doesn't mean we need a holy crusade on that person or persons.
The recap of what happened could be put in spoilers, or provide a link to the segment where it happens. The size of the post is intimidating with the entire bit included. Either way, a detailed, thought out perspective on what happened is a sight for sore eyes since the entire issue has been blown out of proportion in every possible direction.
I seriously wish mods would just delete mind numbingly stupid threads like this. They dont serve any purpose except to create more stupid drama while the OP jacks off at the attention he's getting.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
That's a really awesome post. Unfortunately, I am largely unfamiliar with the rest of these shows! I wish I could give my opinion on them. I really wish that I could be the producer of a legit podcast or TV show or something with SC! haha
The amount of professionalism has to match the amount of viewers you wish to obtain. If you want mediocrity, then be semi-professional I guess.
seriously if you do not like the show do not watch it and they will stop doing the show. else if you want people off the show let them know and be vocal so tired of people all butthurt over little nothings.
I'm sorry but im going to have to disagree with you on some things. But later on that First off: Avilo should've never EVER been brought onto the show. In the beginning, Idra, INcontrol, said 'comments' about Avilo. BAM. JP should've taken as a hint that bringing Avilo on the show would be aggrevating to the players. Also: QXC did a WONDERFUL job of discussing with Idra. In here we can show that Idra CAN get off his 'high' horse and talk to players who are logical and show respect.
Also this part in ur post: Idra felt that he got cut off while trying to make a point
Now, as for Avilo cutting off Idra. IN any discussion, in any debate, talking etc. If you have any respect: If you said you're point and you're done, that means YOU ARE DONE. Avilo cut off Idra. That means Idra had every right to say 'Shut the fuck up'. Why? Because Avilo was in the wrong. Was the words disrespectful sure why not. But by saying that is disrespectful is ignoring or belittling the fact that Avilo was NOT supposed to be talking in the first place. Idra respected Avilo's right to make a point but it is OBVIOUS that Avilo did NOT respect Idra's.
This, however, gives Idra no right to call Avilo a fucking imbecile.
Like i said before, Idra had every right to call him that. If i was trying to have a discussion and someone kept talking while i was trying to discuss. I would tell him or her to STOP. Let me talk cause i gave you your turn.
Incontrol stepping in to defend is teammate: there is nothing wrong with that. Using his Humor? Playing to his strengths? I think THAT is ignorant. When you see a FRIEND arguing, First response? Back friend up. Immediately.
Observers can say, "Oh its clearly Geoff is being bias" So what? If Incontrol is friends with IDra, than he has every right to back him up. It is not Incontrol's Duty to Be a peacekeeper in an arguement. YOu are placing 'expectations' on people because you want them to be there. You are not looking at the basic relationships each of the players have with one another.
You say something like, “This clearly isn’t going anywhere and I don’t feel like arguing anymore. InControl, what do you think of all of this?” Or…”This argument is making me mad. I don’t think my race is overpowered and that’s all I have to say about that.”
This part made me cringe. how do you say this? How do you think they can say this? I hate to used this over used qoute but : hindsight is 20/20. In an outside situation, you and i can say on our high horses and say : "oh he acted so uncivilized." Or " Oh he should've responded like this." BUT they are not perfect. They cannot control their anger as PERFECT as WE supposedly can. And since we probably CAN control our Anger so well, we should be able to judge them as such. Because we are so perfect when we are angry, we react to other acceptability when we are interrupted or get angry. JP drops Avilo from Skype. Really?
If ur really arruing about this, Go ahead and go Yell at Djwheat about dropping people on calls. Djwheat YELLS at people on LIve on THree, Yells on Inside the game. So DONT bring this up if you are NOT going to yell at Djwheat. That is double standard.
Finally this statement: Avilo said nothing, except being a little poor at debating, to warrant that kind of behavior. Taking the easy way out on this one was a bad choice.
I am sorry to say but you are riding on the band wagon. You look are looking at this with blinders on because it is easier to side with the supposed little guy than it is with the person who seems 'bad.'
On June 30 2012 13:49 VirgilSC2 wrote: So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
Lets be honest, Idra was and still is mocked like that. He's been mocked for it for so long that it isn't even an insult anymore, rather a jest. If you watch the Unborrowed thing EG did even Thorzain joked about Idra's hate for Protoss. If you watch almost any show Idra is on someone will mention it at least once. The difference is Idra is a known player so people don't consider it bullying, unlike Avilo is is a borderline unknown.
It was stupid to bring Avilo on. It was stupid for Avilo to want to come on. He wanted to cause shit, as shown by his first comments. He was also unreasonable with his arguments, but you could say that was just the pressure of thousands of people watching him while he knew what the situation was.
A lot of people act like Avilo coming on was to discuss balance. He wasn't. It was never intended to be a balance discussion. JP might not have known, but Geoff wanted Avilo on so Avilo would piss off Idra. QXC and Tyler knew, you could tell by how they were acting the from the moment JP said he was going to be on. JP had never intended for Avilo to come on the show, it was only Geoff asking him to do it that caused it. So really, people need to stop acting like bringing him on and having a legit discussion should have happened, because it was never going to happen. They should be mad that he was brought on as an entertainment point.
In the future they should stop bringing unplanned guests on. So far they are shooting 0/2 with it ending well. This was arguably the best show they've had all year, up until the Avilo moment.
On June 30 2012 13:46 HolyArrow wrote: The way I see it, avilo is a very mediocre player (and I use the word "mediocre" generously here - in the big picture, he's virtually a nobody) who is in a completely different league under IdrA or QXC. Not that I think IdrA or QXC are amazingly good, but they're certainly way better than avilo. And given that his skill is so relatively mediocre, I find it even sillier that he balance whines so much. Not to mention that his whining when Terran was strong certainly detracts from his credibility when he whines during Terran's weak period. And to top it all off, he takes it to the LR threads and has been temp banned for doing it so much. Furthermore, his points on SotG were weak, muddled in generalities and oversimplifications.
Going by this line of reasoning, SotG shouldn't have even brought him on in the first place because there would simply be no reason to bring him on. But that then leads to the reason as to why he was brought on, and that was to simply shit on him.
I heard that he wanted to be on. It's not like he was invited and generously decided to grace them with his presence. Didn't Incontrol mention that he was asking to be put on the show?
I'm sorry, but I'm missing the part where Avilo asked to be on the show so he could be mocked.
I never said he asked to be on the show so he could be mocked. I'm merely saying that he asked to be on the show, period. And the reason I said that was because your post gave me the impression that you thought Avilo was asked to be brought on to the show, rather than Avilo being brought on by his own request. I think that's an important factor to consider because the way I see it, what occurred on the show becomes much worse if someone else asked Avilo to come on, rather than Avilo inviting himself on.
Frankly it doesn't matter who asked who. Theoreticals (based on the previously embedded quotes): -If Avilo asked: SotG agrees because they see the comedic value in mocking him. -If SotG asked: They are actively seeking the previous mentioned comedic value.
In the end, it doesn't matter who asked who. SotG either acted or reacted in a way that was immature.
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
I think we have different ideas as to what SOTG is and what roles it is there to fufill. When I tune in to SOTG I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with "the guys" for a little while and laugh at their jokes. "Serious" content and in-depth analysis is good on top of the humour. Why can't "serious" content be discussed while making jokes?
So much of the hate on SOTG seems to stem from the idea that they prioritize silly jokes and stories over hard analysis, but that fine to me. In fact, I want them to prioritize it that way
As i said in a previous post joking is great. But when you are doing that you have to be careful because it isn't just your friends chatting it is also 10k people and humiliating someone for a cheap laugh is not acceptable..period
I agree they were being a little mean to Avilo, more mean than they probably should have, but I was addressing a general sentiment towards SOTG I have been noticing that I wanted argue against. Then again, I am a strange person.
A little off-topic rant: I can't stand watching sportscenter or really anything on ESPN. Reporting sports news is great and highlights are great, but it's just so boring to me the way they present it. I want sportscenter on HBO with penis jokes and swearing while they report the same news. People on sportscenter are boring as ass. American football commentary is boring as ass compared to SC commentary because SC casters, in addition to not dealing with the FCC, aren't bound by the same "professionalism" that those guys are. This is the greatest Day[9] cast ever because he could just fuck around and it made me happy.
hahahahah! greatest cast by day9. its soooo funny hearing him nonchalantly throwing the words fuck and penis around. rofl. :D
On June 30 2012 13:21 gundream wrote: For the record, yes, I only skimmed your article. But is this really necessary? I think the way this community responds to certain issues is rather stupid and mostly all just big overreactions that don't help the issue. If you arent going to be part of the solution, then don't become a part of the problem. Bringing more attention to the issue is stupid and quite frankly any adult in the "real world" would probably think that trying to call this out is ...stupid. They would probably just say, "Get over it and shut the fuck up."
But that is just my opinion and what I think when I see this type of article come up, because really we aren't the government and we aren't in church kids.
Well that's just the thing! I'm trying to be the solution! I think I responded in a professional, mannered way with real ways of getting these issues fixed. I don't think I brought any unnecessary attention to it. If I did, that certainly wasn't my intention.
On June 30 2012 13:24 rkffhk wrote: Outstanding thread. I'm very happy that you put forth the effort to make this and I'm really happy that I don't watch that show.
I think Avilo got shafted hard and I'm pissed at everyone there who wasn't fair to him.
QXC got a shit ton of more respect from me out of this, but I kind of wish that he had left the show as well after Avilo was removed in protest of the shit that just went down. I can't blame him for being quiet about it, though.
Thank you very much! I am really happy that my work didn't go unnoticed!!! =)
Avilo clearly got shafted and it's really bad news to bring down the entire SOTG for it, which is something else that I should have mentioned that I don't want to do. Instead, focus on QXC who is amazing! Leaving the show would have just pissed off everyone else as well. I'm glad he remained so calm, cool, and collected!
On June 30 2012 13:13 yourteam wrote: the crux of your post is built around this idea that at some earlier point in time SOTG was a better, more mannered show.
At no point in your post did I see any justification for this. The only decline related to SOTG have been the tournament results of its key players.
I disagree. It started going sour Q4 2011. It is why Day9 left.
I am beginning to think this show has run its course. Realtalk is pretty good and we have ITG. the Executives etc. We need new more mature personalities representing our community.
Should SotG continue as it is?
Poll: Should SotG be axed?
No, but Incontrol should depart (50)
40%
No, its the best SC show (41)
33%
Yes, the show has run its course (21)
17%
(7)
6%
(6)
5%
125 total votes
Your vote: Should SotG be axed?
(Vote): No, its the best SC show (Vote): Yes, the show has run its course (Vote): No, but Incontrol should depart (Vote): (Vote):
That's a really awesome post. Unfortunately, I am largely unfamiliar with the rest of these shows! I wish I could give my opinion on them. I really wish that I could be the producer of a legit podcast or TV show or something with SC! haha
The amount of professionalism has to match the amount of viewers you wish to obtain. If you want mediocrity, then be semi-professional I guess.
I strongly disagree with this assertion. Being unprofessional does not degrade the quality of anything. In fact, sometimes I think professionalism is what degrades the quality. If I had to sacrifice professionalism for entertainment value I would absolutely every time. Anyone else who thinks differently has some very strange priorities
Okay. This is actually getting out of hand. People who didn't like this part of this episode of the show: OKAY, it was a bad part of one episode. Chill out! I'm sure they know what they shouldn't do for next time by now. It's over... Professional this, morally wrong that. Stop making such a big deal out of it. It was awkward and uncomfortable. We get it. >.<
On June 30 2012 13:49 VirgilSC2 wrote: So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
Lets be honest, Idra was and still is mocked like that. He's been mocked for it for so long that it isn't even an insult anymore, rather a jest. If you watch the Unborrowed thing EG did even Thorzain joked about Idra's hate for Protoss. If you watch almost any show Idra is on someone will mention it at least once. The difference is Idra is a known player so people don't consider it bullying, unlike Avilo is is a borderline unknown.
It was stupid to bring Avilo on. It was stupid for Avilo to want to come on. He wanted to cause shit, as shown by his first comments. He was also unreasonable with his arguments, but you could say that was just the pressure of thousands of people watching him while he knew what the situation was.
A lot of people act like Avilo coming on was to discuss balance. He wasn't. It was never intended to be a balance discussion. JP might not have known, but Geoff wanted Avilo on so Avilo would piss off Idra. QXC and Tyler knew, you could tell by how they were acting the from the moment JP said he was going to be on. JP had never intended for Avilo to come on the show, it was only Geoff asking him to do it that caused it. So really, people need to stop acting like bringing him on and having a legit discussion should have happened, because it was never going to happen. They should be mad that he was brought on as an entertainment point.
In the future they should stop bringing unplanned guests on. So far they are shooting 0/2 with it ending well. This was arguably the best show they've had all year, up until the Avilo moment.
Clearly, Idra nor Incontrol wanted to discuss balance with Avilo. Nothing can work if only 1 of the 2 sides are working.
Should get rid of Incontrol who apparently thinks hes good enough/smart enough to talk down to other people when he hasn't posted a good result in god knows how long.
Idra is just being Idra obviously. Guy has always acted so arrogant and self-righteous towards people below him, then anyone that is on a decent team gets his respect.
I seriously cannot stand how pathetic those two guys were on SotG.
On June 30 2012 13:27 Aulisemia wrote: Disrespecting someone who comes on your show is quite unprofessional. As people have said, they could have at the very least ended the conversation better by cutting Avilo off and thanking him for coming on.
I give props to QXC for acting reasonably professionally, but it was a bit disheartening to see Incontrol and Idra acting like a couple of sophmores teasing a freshman. SotG has and will always be a very narrow slice of the SC2 scene. It's completely dominated by their regulars and if you aren't from that circle your opinion doesn't really matter to them. I imagine it's like trying to interview with Fox News, the information is so tightly controlled and they have no problems dumping all over you to get a reaction before they cut you off.
Yes, you can think of it like your opinion doesn't matter to them if you are not in that circle already. Which is a real shame, because there are some brilliant minds on that show, I just wish that they acted a tad differently towards guests.
The reason this community behavior is going backwards is that any time any slight drama pops up, there will be 10 posts on reddit, a 5000 word essay post, and dozens of overly sensitive people whining about extremely minor situations. I'm sure we're going to have another thread or two about this situation at least, a long introspection thread or two on how esports is declining, probably a nice thread linking this to the failure of the foreign scene to compete with Korea, and so on. Get over it, this literally affects nothing, unless a bunch of people whine to EG's sponsors and MLG and then a couple vapid, meaningless apologies are issued from the pillars of SotG. This is by far one of the most mannered communities on the internet, yet any time anything remotely sensitive happens there's a ridiculous shitstorm.
Can't wait until another minor community figure calls someone a homophobic slur and there's a 20 page thread on it!
On June 30 2012 13:49 TheDraken wrote: most important question of this thread: who the fuck cares?
i'm sick of these witch hunts people try to start. people like the OP are only trying to stir up drama. let SOTG be what it is, if you don't like it, don't watch it. but coming on here trying to criticize teams for not being upright gentlemen is retarded. it's a fucking videogame.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
He's known to be a TvZ/TvP whiner without any particularly amazing results.
edit: since I grabbed the next page I'll use this page to say that this thread is ridiculous. Not just the whole '1 bad example = SC COMMUNITY IS GOING BACKWARDS' but people that assume they somehow have the power to 'axe SOTG' or whatever. Jesus fucking christ have some common sense people.
I don't want to axe SOTG! That's not my intention at all! My intention was to let them know that they must learn from this experience and grow from it. If they want to be an amazing podcast that centers around the best in the SC community, they must act like it...to everyone - no matter how good or what team they play for.
On June 30 2012 13:30 hoivenmayven wrote: This should probably be contained in the SoTG thread, no? Already exploded there why create two threads that will devolve into balance threads.
I am sorry, I didn't know that there was a SOTG thread already. I'm quite new to TL.net =)
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
Idra had every right to argue with Avilo, which he did. No one has the right to dismiss everything someone says about the game of SC2. Avilo said it himself, which I agree with..."Just because you're not the best, doesn't mean you can't bring things to the game." My whole point of the article was to teach them how to learn from this experience and not make fun of their guests.
I am a huge fan of incontrol but yea this episode was really hard for me to watch.(note: I actually don't like Avilo cause of his balance whines) But Idra and incontrol acted like asses to avilo and it was quite annoy.
I like Idra's BM in game, who honestly does not get mad when you are losing. I have no problem him calling people bad etc. But out of game in the real world it wouldn't hurt for him to shape up when having a conversation with another person. I felt the same way when I was watching the stream. InControl's behavior was also disapointing. Who wants to go on a show where someone you are wanting to debate with decides to take it out on you personally and put you down for having an opinion.
I'm glad you put up the transcript since I didn't watch the show that episode. But if the transcript is correct. Oh my god SOTG... oh my god. Nobody deserves to be treated this way. Avilo brought up good points and despite him clearly not being the best at arguing and getting a point across there was no need for this kind of treatment. Shame on you InControl, Idra and JP. Props to QXC for being awesome and trying to support him when he clearly was having difficulties.
No need to be so disrespectful to someone, particularly when he's a guest. This is seriously surprising, even coming from gamers.
I will agree this is just stirring up drama though, but if you put up a show for people to watch, you gotta understand people are gonna talk about it.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
You can make the same argument. Idra isn't even close to the same level as DRG, Symbol, Nestea or even Stephano. And even DRG is saying how strong Zerg are right now and that this is his chance to win a GSL.
And it's not just Avilo saying this, MKP, MMA, MVP all have expressed concerns on how Zerg is AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
I agree, but at least he competes against them regularly, where as avilo does not even COMPETE at the highest level. Even if avilo is simply echoing the thoughts of someone like an MKP or MMA, Idra discussing strategy with him is completely useless because he would be talking about strategies that Avilo can't properly execute and thus can't comment on their effectiveness. If MMA came on the show and told Idra, no this strategy doesn't work, his argument has actual merit. There is no difference having Avilo discuss balance with Idra than having a silver leaguer do it.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
Idra had every right to argue with Avilo, which he did. No one has the right to dismiss everything someone says about the game of SC2. Avilo said it himself, which I agree with..."Just because you're not the best, doesn't mean you can't bring things to the game." My whole point of the article was to teach them how to learn from this experience and not make fun of their guests.
You realize that the "fair and balanced" approach is what has turned modern news into pure shit, right? Not all opinions are created equal. Not all opinions deserve equal air time or even acknowledgement. My only problem with SotG is the fact that Avilo had no business being on the podcast to begin with because he deserves no additional soap boxes to stand on; that is also the only lesson they hopefully learned from this.... that and to not listen to the stream monsters. Ever.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
I'm not 100% on this, but I think that he and Idra had a heated argument before the interview even happened.
Avilo has a history of balance whining. IIRC, he was even whining about TvX back in the days of the GSTvTL
And Idra doesn't?
He bitched about Terran, then Protoss, then Terran, and then Protoss again. Only difference is that Idra has notable achievements compared to avilo.
But that doesn't mean you get to dismiss every point someone makes in such a shitty fashion. Idra can be part of his little team and live in their gaming house all he wants, point doesn't change that he acts like a stuck-up, childish, brat sometimes.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
You can make the same argument. Idra isn't even close to the same level as DRG, Symbol, Nestea or even Stephano. And even DRG is saying how strong Zerg are right now and that this is his chance to win a GSL.
And it's not just Avilo saying this, MKP, MMA, MVP all have expressed concerns on how Zerg is AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
I agree, but at least he competes against them regularly, where as avilo does not even COMPETE at the highest level. Even if avilo is simply echoing the thoughts of someone like an MKP or MMA, Idra discussing strategy with him is completely useless because he would be talking about strategies that Avilo can't properly execute and thus can't comment on their effectiveness. If MMA came on the show and told Idra, no this strategy doesn't work, his argument has actual merit. There is no difference having Avilo discuss balance with Idra than having a silver leaguer do it.
BM time from me, but MMA could counter pretty much any argument IdrA may have by saying "look man, I beat you by killing my own CC, 'nuff said."
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
I'm not 100% on this, but I think that he and Idra had a heated argument before the interview even happened.
Avilo has a history of balance whining. IIRC, he was even whining about TvX back in the days of the GSTvTL
And Idra doesn't?
He bitched about Terran, then Protoss, then Terran, and then Protoss again. Only difference is that Idra has notable achievements compared to avilo.
But that doesn't mean you get to dismiss every point someone makes in such a shitty fashion. Idra can be part of his little team and live in their gaming house all he wants, point doesn't change that he acts like a stuck-up, childish, brat sometimes.
idra has a history of being one of the best western players both in bw and sc2
On June 30 2012 13:36 SwizzY wrote: It's their show, it garners viewers like everyone complaining in this thread, and if you don't like it, stop watching. There is no Esports internet stream commissioning board that is going to shut down SotG because of a spat like this. Nor would I want there to be one anyways. Idra is a thick, arrogant, BM guy, but at the end of the day he's one of SotG main members. The JP/Incontrol/Idra trio can do whatever the hell they want on their show. And to think, I thought the Esports witch hunt metaphor was an exaggeration.
I'm not out to witch hunt them. I'm not out to tell them how to act on their show, either. I thought I had made that clear in the post?!
All I am saying is that you can't be an important part of the scene and act like they did.
On June 30 2012 13:37 TENTHST wrote: Avilo was brought onto the show for comedic purposes. Though it was under the guise of a "balance discussion", I'm fairly certain that JP and Idra and everyone else knew that up front that nothing good was going to come from it.
QXC was there to represent the Terran viewpoint, not Avilo.
The way he was treated was anything but comedic. That part is obvious.
Here is how I viewed this issue. I use the word issue lightly as a way to refer to this as I can't figure out a word that works well for this. I see that everyone is a bit overboard in every direction. QXC and Avilo did great mind you, but I think they need to realize that this is how Greg is publicly. He is a player, not a community pleaser. That being said, JP definitely could have handled it better, however in his defence (and everyone else' for that matter) this show isn't supposed to be serious. There was a better way to do it, and the choice was made. Additionally they went from reasonably respectful to disrespecting their guest.
Now, on the offensive, Avilo was trying to make an argument, and he was contributing nicely, just to be talked down on because he's not GM. That is irrelevant, because he's not GM doesn't mean shit, he could be GM, he could be Bronze, but if he has the knowledge, he can apply knowledge, the only thing he can't really say unless backed up by numbering and possibilities is can or can't. Now, Avilo did interrupt Greg, a lot, and that's rude, but a simple "oh sorry" is a good response, the reaction from Greg had to be expected from him just as how he is. Now, that being said, Avilo could definitely have organized his arguments better and stopped restating things.
This was just bad chemistry on everyone's part, Greg had a distaste for Avilo. Avilo didn't have the same level of knowledge Greg has. Geoff, JP, and Tyler are kinda cliquey as they do this together regularly. They are close friends, in turn they will back each other up. QXC handled this diplomatically, but I'm sure it's just how he is. He isn't as close to all of them as they are to each other, so things are different.
This is both good and bad for the show, they get further exposure, and more viewers for those who like this shit, and lose a few for those who don't, either way the names get another reference for people to remember them.
TLDR: Don't bother inviting people you know won't work out. If you do, be neutral. Additionally, the show is still good, and entertaining. This is actually pulling in more exposure.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
I was really disappointed in the SOTG crew for being so disrespectful to a fellow community member who's trying to have a legitimate discussion, whether he's right or whether he's making bad points. Having no basic respect for someone who you invited to talk on *your show* just shows how immature I think some of the cast can be. When someone I don't like interrupts me, I don't tell them to "shut the fuck up" because I'm trying to maintain some kind of bad boy image.
I'm not here to crucify JP, Idra, or Incontrol, but I just want to say that I thought you guys would be more respectable and respectful people. Obviously you guys aren't perfect, but when your show is one of the most watched talk shows about eSports and SC2, it reflects very badly on the community when you can't show basic human decency towards your own guests.
I hope you guys have the foresight to not invite people on in the future who Idra doesn't respect.
I think we have different ideas as to what SOTG is and what roles it is there to fufill. When I tune in to SOTG I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with "the guys" for a little while and laugh at their jokes. "Serious" content and in-depth analysis is good on top of the humour. Why can't "serious" content be discussed while making jokes?
So much of the hate on SOTG seems to stem from the idea that they prioritize silly jokes and stories over hard analysis, but that fine to me. In fact, I want them to prioritize it that way
I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. But the way Avilo was treated wasn't about "jokes." They talked about serious balance issues and tried to make an episode with that.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
I'm not 100% on this, but I think that he and Idra had a heated argument before the interview even happened.
Avilo has a history of balance whining. IIRC, he was even whining about TvX back in the days of the GSTvTL
And Idra doesn't?
He bitched about Terran, then Protoss, then Terran, and then Protoss again. Only difference is that Idra has notable achievements compared to avilo.
But that doesn't mean you get to dismiss every point someone makes in such a shitty fashion. Idra can be part of his little team and live in their gaming house all he wants, point doesn't change that he acts like a stuck-up, childish, brat sometimes.
idra has a history of being one of the best western players both in bw and sc2
Your point? Or did you just want to pretty much re-state what I typed in the first part?
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
Key thing you're missing here is that Idra said it right to avilo in person. No one quoted this, it came straight from the horse's mouth.
Since when is being respectful and a bit tolerant to someone's face an opinion? I'm pretty sure everyone wouldn't say half the shit they say about someone to their face unless called out on it. Not the case, considering avilo did 0 to provoke any of them.
I'd consider him helping the scene. "Asking professionals to act a bit like professionals to everyone". Holy shit, that must be an outrageous request.
Not really the appropriate title, but whatever. you live you learn. next time you put a title, make it exactly how it is.
On Topic: I understand why JP wanted to drop Avilo, but its a discussion show. Everybody should be able to give their opinion without being call dropped. The discussion did get quite out of hand, but i think muting either one of them (mostly greg) would of been a better idea.
And also, you don't have to make a goddamned thread for every fucking minuscule thing that happens in the scene. Just make a long post in another thread thats related, and thats that. Excessive drama isnt good for the scene.
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
I'm not 100% on this, but I think that he and Idra had a heated argument before the interview even happened.
Avilo has a history of balance whining. IIRC, he was even whining about TvX back in the days of the GSTvTL
And Idra doesn't?
He bitched about Terran, then Protoss, then Terran, and then Protoss again. Only difference is that Idra has notable achievements compared to avilo.
But that doesn't mean you get to dismiss every point someone makes in such a shitty fashion. Idra can be part of his little team and live in their gaming house all he wants, point doesn't change that he acts like a stuck-up, childish, brat sometimes.
idra has a history of being one of the best western players both in bw and sc2
Your point? Or did you just want to pretty much re-state what I typed in the first part?
If the top players in a community don't have the ability to bitch about what they consider an in game imbalance then nobody does. Does this really need to be spelled out for you?
On June 30 2012 13:42 RUFinalBoss wrote: EG i think has been making some misteps latly, but this article i think is centered aggreivly against them, avilo is just as noteworthy as QXC or whoever else. so dont blatently disrespect him. WHAT TICKED ME OFF WAS THE COMMENTS ON LUCKYFOOL. Blatent disrespect, and he IS SUCH a contributer to the sc2 scene. and idra smh
I thought the same thing, without even knowing luckyfool. I think that anyone who tries their hardest to make SC2 the best is worth the time. smh as well.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
Idra had every right to argue with Avilo, which he did. No one has the right to dismiss everything someone says about the game of SC2. Avilo said it himself, which I agree with..."Just because you're not the best, doesn't mean you can't bring things to the game." My whole point of the article was to teach them how to learn from this experience and not make fun of their guests.
Well, if you're not the best, it does mean that whatever you have to say, or whatever idea you have, isn't all that relevant to professional level balance discussion because you haven't competed in professional level competition. Do you think pro sports coaches read the newspaper to find out what strategies sportswriters think will work?
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
Thanks. I was going to go off again but seeing as how upset this whole thing is making me I probably would have just sweared incoherently. I'll just repost the youtube video that Rhyinn happened to remove when quoting me. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of how people act in the mainstream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5jQRxLpy4
On June 30 2012 13:46 MaestroSC wrote: LOL there is a poll about Axe'img SotG and kicking a player off... LOLOLOLOL who thinks of these things. People realize this is a decision that ONLY JP could make... and do you really think he is going to give a damn about the whines and complaints of.... 16 people? LOLOL
I DEMAND THAT BARACK OBOMA STEP DOWN! We had a poll on the internet,,, and 200 people are not happy. WOOT now he wont be president anymore!
(i dont dislike obama just making an example/point)... making a poll with options that you cant provide is a waste of time.... maybe next time u should make a poll about people handing you free money.... option A: 100 dollars per person. Option B. 1000 dollars per person. Option C: you have to give me all of your money! if your going to make a dreamer poll which you think will give you power you don't have.. reach for more than creative control over a SC2 webshow.
on a side note... who is luckyfool? Why are people acting like everyone should know his name? I have followed since sc2 beta and dont know that name?
Also saying Avilo is on the same level as idra or qxc is insane... How many matches has he won in korea? or at mlg? or at dreamhack? or in the nasl? the list goes on and on....
While I didn't make the poll or vote, I'm just going to skip all of that. What I will comment on is Avilo is totally not on the same level as Idra. Does that mean Idra has free reign to disrespect him? That's the point of this post...nothing more.
On June 30 2012 13:49 TheDraken wrote: most important question of this thread: who the fuck cares?
i'm sick of these witch hunts people try to start. people like the OP are only trying to stir up drama. let SOTG be what it is, if you don't like it, don't watch it. but coming on here trying to criticize teams for not being upright gentlemen is retarded. it's a fucking videogame.
I care. I care that huge SC2 shows are all about. How would you feel if you saw this episode on SportsCenter and they were all laughing at us?! I'm not trying to stir up any drama, I made this post so people can learn from their experiences.
It's also more than just a video game. This is the future of video games and people make really good livings off of these things!
On June 30 2012 13:28 OneBaseKing wrote: What did Avilo do previously? Did he do something that angered the SC2 community?
I'm not 100% on this, but I think that he and Idra had a heated argument before the interview even happened.
Avilo has a history of balance whining. IIRC, he was even whining about TvX back in the days of the GSTvTL
And Idra doesn't?
He bitched about Terran, then Protoss, then Terran, and then Protoss again. Only difference is that Idra has notable achievements compared to avilo.
But that doesn't mean you get to dismiss every point someone makes in such a shitty fashion. Idra can be part of his little team and live in their gaming house all he wants, point doesn't change that he acts like a stuck-up, childish, brat sometimes.
idra has a history of being one of the best western players both in bw and sc2
Your point? Or did you just want to pretty much re-state what I typed in the first part?
If the top players in a community don't have the ability to bitch about what they consider an in game imbalance then nobody does. Does this really need to be spelled out for you?
I never said he didn't have the ability to. So I guess it did need to be spelled out, considering you're trying to cite things I never said...
My point was that avilo wasn't the only one that has a history of crying "imba!".
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
No idea what you're even talking about. As for it being a gangbang, no, it was pretty much IdrA and Incontrol, which are two people. That hardly qualifies as a gangbang. JP decided to end the show when he realized it wasn't going to go a good way anytime soon. People are acting like the entire State of the Game podcast went and beat the shit out of him in real life, made him eat dirt, then forever ruined his career. More like Incontrol laughed at him, IdrA called him an imbecile when avilo was acting like one, then JP cut him off because he saw the show was going nowhere. Better make a dozen threads about that super important situation.
On June 30 2012 13:49 TheDraken wrote: most important question of this thread: who the fuck cares?
i'm sick of these witch hunts people try to start. people like the OP are only trying to stir up drama. let SOTG be what it is, if you don't like it, don't watch it. but coming on here trying to criticize teams for not being upright gentlemen is retarded. it's a fucking videogame.
I care. I care that huge SC2 shows are all about. How would you feel if you saw this episode on SportsCenter and they were all laughing at us?! I'm not trying to stir up any drama, I made this post so people can learn from their experiences.
It's also more than just a video game. This is the future of video games and people make really good livings off of these things!
Something tells me no one at all watching Sports Center would care about two guys mocking another guy on a podcast. They cover sports where people fight all the time, yell at each other, yell at refs, elbow each other, scream in dispute of seemingly stupid calls, people RIOT over their team winning or losing. People RIOT in things like football(soccer), you think Sports Center would care that IdrA and Incontrol mocked avilo? Uhhh
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
On June 30 2012 13:49 TheDraken wrote: most important question of this thread: who the fuck cares?
i'm sick of these witch hunts people try to start. people like the OP are only trying to stir up drama. let SOTG be what it is, if you don't like it, don't watch it. but coming on here trying to criticize teams for not being upright gentlemen is retarded. it's a fucking videogame.
I care. I care that huge SC2 shows are all about. How would you feel if you saw this episode on SportsCenter and they were all laughing at us?! I'm not trying to stir up any drama, I made this post so people can learn from their experiences.
It's also more than just a video game. This is the future of video games and people make really good livings off of these things!
If people on Sports Center knew what was happening here, the only thing they would be laughing at is people like you.
It's pretty simple, for me. People act how they want to act. I don't try to change them, nor do I care to change them. If I find them pleasant / amusing / some other positive attribute, I like them, otherwise, they can piss off. People who find others' behavior unacceptable and go on a crusade to change them, or bring them into public shame in order to create a more perfect world are a fucking joke. But again, I accept them as that and have no desire to try to change them. If IdrA, JP, iNControL want to act a certain way, who gives a shit. It's how they are going to act. Make up your own minds, as supposedly intelligent human beings as to how much they are going to impact your own lives.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
Idra had every right to argue with Avilo, which he did. No one has the right to dismiss everything someone says about the game of SC2. Avilo said it himself, which I agree with..."Just because you're not the best, doesn't mean you can't bring things to the game." My whole point of the article was to teach them how to learn from this experience and not make fun of their guests.
Well, if you're not the best, it does mean that whatever you have to say, or whatever idea you have, isn't all that relevant to professional level balance discussion because you haven't competed in professional level competition. Do you think pro sports coaches read the newspaper to find out what strategies sportswriters think will work?
Coaches at every level have contributed to the understanding of their respective games, which is a more apt analogy. You don't have to have competed at a "professional level" to understand the game whether it be football or SC2. In football in particular defensive and offensive schemes that have originated at the high school or small-college level have filtered up to the biggest college teams and/or to the NFL. The best-known offensive example would be the spread offense.
On June 30 2012 13:49 VirgilSC2 wrote: So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
Very good take!!! That's a great point. Why not mock Idra for his poor play lately and whining about imbalances?! Idra has been the joke many times when talking about balance problems. They always say how he whines all the time that Zerg isn't the best race and they are the hardest to play.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
Thanks. I was going to go off again but seeing as how upset this whole thing is making me I probably would have just sweared incoherently. I'll just repost the youtube video that Rhyinn happened to remove when quoting me. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of how people act in the mainstream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5jQRxLpy4
An asshole hangs up on an asshole. You posted this twice, so you feel it has relevance. I don't see it.
In every group of friends there is that one person that no body actually likes but keeps around just so they can shit on them to make them selves feel better.
On June 30 2012 13:49 PiGStarcraft wrote: Anyone who hasn't experienced Avilo's blatant BM, whining and idiocy (not just in SC2 but for many years in other RTS too) probably shares the view of the OP. I agree they should have handled it better but the fact that it's Avilo makes me not really give a shit. He's one of the few progamers who will regularly msg opponents after tournament matches to call them bad and accuse their race of being overpowered.
That's a shame and one of the reasons I am writing this thread to begin with. It's that kind of act that I want to see gone from e-sports. We don't need it...not one bit.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You completely misunderstand because what we're saying is that this is how people act on mainstream media shows, which is what we would aspire too right? You think that mainstream talk shows are never rude to people because they are, often, and the usual reaction is that we laugh about it. The only people who get so hurt because of rudeness on talk shows are apparently people in the SC2 community.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You call my argument a slippery slope while comparing IdrA and Incontrol bashing avilo to people physically assaulting each other in real life or stealing? Okay bud. There's a reason that you go to prison for assault and theft, and not for calling people imbeciles.
On June 30 2012 13:51 MaestroSC wrote: whine posts are hurting esports... we are never going to be the picture perfect hippies who love everyone that everyone dreams us to be. the nfl isnt, the nba isnt, soccer/football isnt, etc....
seriously people are entitled to have their opinions and to say them.... the crying and getting our feelings hurt over honesty is mind numbingly boring... people like this are begging for a scene where noone says anything but "gg" and "thank you to my sponsors and fans" because they get hunted down for having any opinions...
You can have your opinions. You can talk all the shit you want. But DO NOT bring a guest on your show and then laugh at him and then disconnect him from your show. Do you think that's the way to act?! Because if it is...I don't want to be a part of e-sports.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
No idea what you're even talking about. As for it being a gangbang, no, it was pretty much IdrA and Incontrol, which are two people. That hardly qualifies as a gangbang. JP decided to end the show when he realized it wasn't going to go a good way anytime soon. People are acting like the entire State of the Game podcast went and beat the shit out of him in real life, made him eat dirt, then forever ruined his career. More like Incontrol laughed at him, IdrA called him an imbecile when avilo was acting like one, then JP cut him off because he saw the show was going nowhere. Better make a dozen threads about that super important situation.
What I'm talking about is that there's different ways to have dissent. Discussion and arguing is fine, the terms in which the discussion was in that particular time were not. Why even invite Avilo to the show if they're just gonna insult him and ignore the good points he was making (despite how badly they were drawn across). I understand when two friends argue and insult each other etc, that's normal. But you don't treat a person who isn't on your circle like that for no reason. At least most people I know don't do that, particularly when you invite them to participate on a discussion.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
Thanks. I was going to go off again but seeing as how upset this whole thing is making me I probably would have just sweared incoherently. I'll just repost the youtube video that Rhyinn happened to remove when quoting me. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of how people act in the mainstream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5jQRxLpy4
An asshole hangs up on an asshole. You posted this twice, so you feel it has relevance. I don't see it.
The relevance is so mindblowingly obvious I'm not sure where to start. You do realize this thread is about assholes hanging up on assholes right?
On June 30 2012 13:53 striderxxx wrote: SOTG isn't very good anymore, but it's the only thing out there. They have complete bias and one sided arguements, like when they used to have all protoss representatives. Now they are EG heavy.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You completely misunderstand because what we're saying is that this is how people act on mainstream media shows, which is what we would aspire too right? You think that mainstream talk shows are never rude to people because they are, often, and the usual reaction is that we laugh about it. The only people who get so hurt because of rudeness on talk shows are apparently people in the SC2 community.
Because no one else in the world that watches said programs has an opinion, right?
Not hearing any backlash/=/ there is no backlash. People have opinions that change their outtake on a certain person based on what they do/say.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You completely misunderstand because what we're saying is that this is how people act on mainstream media shows, which is what we would aspire too right? You think that mainstream talk shows are never rude to people because they are, often, and the usual reaction is that we laugh about it. The only people who get so hurt because of rudeness on talk shows are apparently people in the SC2 community.
I don't misunderstand whatsoever because that post goes far beyond rudeness in mainstream shows. As a tangent, what shows are being referenced here? I'm pretty sure whatever show would be mentioned here I would most likely find completely inappropriate.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You completely misunderstand because what we're saying is that this is how people act on mainstream media shows, which is what we would aspire too right? You think that mainstream talk shows are never rude to people because they are, often, and the usual reaction is that we laugh about it. The only people who get so hurt because of rudeness on talk shows are apparently people in the SC2 community.
Because no one else in the world that watches said programs has an opinion, right?
Not hearing any backlash/=/ there is no backlash. People have opinions that change their outtake on a certain person based on what they do/say.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You completely misunderstand because what we're saying is that this is how people act on mainstream media shows, which is what we would aspire too right? You think that mainstream talk shows are never rude to people because they are, often, and the usual reaction is that we laugh about it. The only people who get so hurt because of rudeness on talk shows are apparently people in the SC2 community.
I don't misunderstand whatsoever because that post goes far beyond rudeness in mainstream shows. As a tangent, what shows are being referenced here? I'm pretty sure whatever show would be mentioned here I would most likely find completely inappropriate.
Almost all talk show I can think of. I can vividly remember things from Adam Corolla, Howard Stern, Jay Leno, the View, even Oprah.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
No idea what you're even talking about. As for it being a gangbang, no, it was pretty much IdrA and Incontrol, which are two people. That hardly qualifies as a gangbang. JP decided to end the show when he realized it wasn't going to go a good way anytime soon. People are acting like the entire State of the Game podcast went and beat the shit out of him in real life, made him eat dirt, then forever ruined his career. More like Incontrol laughed at him, IdrA called him an imbecile when avilo was acting like one, then JP cut him off because he saw the show was going nowhere. Better make a dozen threads about that super important situation.
What I'm talking about is that there's different ways to have dissent. Discussion and arguing is fine, the terms in which the discussion was in that particular time were not. Why even invite Avilo to the show if they're just gonna insult him and ignore the good points he was making (despite how badly they were drawn across). I understand when two friends argue and insult each other etc, that's normal. But you don't treat a person who isn't on your circle like that for no reason. At least most people I know don't do that, particularly when you invite them to participate on a discussion.
Avilo did not make good points. Avilo repeated the discussion that IdrA and qxc already had, which IdrA had given IMO a decent enough answer to, then twisted IdrA's words to claim that he agreed with avilo when IdrA clearly did not. There is a clear reason that they treated avilo like that. The transcript may not get it across but avilo seemed almost hysterical in the way he was talking. qxc then calmly repeated what avilo was trying to get across, but the late-game situation had already been discussed and avilo was adding nothing, and twisting IdrA's words.
In case you don't recall/didn't see it, IdrA said you can get on even footing macro wise with MMM and mass expansions, go marine-tank if you face ling/muta/baneling, go MMM/expand while sprinkling in marauders because zerg has to go ultra as their first T3 choice due to the MMM aggression, then put up 5 starports with your extra economy to pump out vikings during the broodlord tech switch.
Avilo's argument...was him saying this is impossible. He added nothing, and in the past has just been a complete balance whiner and extremely BM in general. He said it was impossible pretty much because he sits back behind planetary fortresses with tanks and vikings and forces zergs to take an hour to kill him, hence the zerg can literally do anything they want and tech switch constantly against HIM. Just because he does not arguably "play terran right" in the current metagame doesn't mean that terran is imbalanced.
I think we have different ideas as to what SOTG is and what roles it is there to fufill. When I tune in to SOTG I just want to feel like I'm hanging out with "the guys" for a little while and laugh at their jokes. "Serious" content and in-depth analysis is good on top of the humour. Why can't "serious" content be discussed while making jokes?
So much of the hate on SOTG seems to stem from the idea that they prioritize silly jokes and stories over hard analysis, but that fine to me. In fact, I want them to prioritize it that way
I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. But the way Avilo was treated wasn't about "jokes." They talked about serious balance issues and tried to make an episode with that.
They already discussed it with IdrA and QXC. Avilo was purely for entertainment value. It was probably a little mean, but like I have stated before, I was responding to what I felt was a general complaint about SOTG and it being unprofessional and not serious enough.
I don't want them to be professional at all. Sometimes they're gonna do weird shit like fuck with Avilo, and don't even get me started on Mia Rose, but I would rather that weird shit happen than them hold back.
And as callous as it sounds, sometimes being mean is entertaining. Day[9] constantly shits on Combat-Ex here in the greatest cast ever, but it's damn good.
On June 30 2012 13:56 l_Kyo_l wrote: The people who are writing these things and just completely turning a blind eye to the logic that was used by Idra prior to this show are seriously pissing me off.
Are you seriously so dumb that you cannot understand, first off, that it IS JP's show, and it IS NOT sponsored by anyone. Asserting this "standard" onto how he wants to conduct his own show is absurd. Secondly, the statement of "it's really rude to do xxx to Avilo" is so mind boggling. Did you even listen to Avilo in this "debate"? All he did was come on, whine to the players without taking Idra's points into consideration, unlike QXC, attempt to turn around what Idra said, and then flat out talk over him. If you've ever actually been in a debate or had a meaningful conversation in your life you don't just talk on top of other people; and to be honest, if I was the show host and an invited a person who couldn't come on and articulate themself in a way that was beneficial to the debate, while at the same time, just rehashing the same points and sticking to one "gotcha" point I would have dropped them just like JP did.
Now, this isn't to say that I don't agree about the balance complaints Avilo was attempting to make. And I feel rightly so, that there are indeed some problems in TvZ that cannot be as easily explained as Idra made it out to be. But, when you objectively look back on what Idra was saying, even before Avilo came on, that he didn't want him on the show and then Idra tells him off and you blame the show for "being rude" it really just bugs the hell out of me. You should be happy they even let Avilo on the show in the first place knowing that it would more than likely happen. They did it for fun, they had their fun, and yet people seem to get these stupid ideas that the show is completely bias and hateful towards people like Avilo. No, the truth of the matter is, Avilo doesn't fully understand what he's talking about because hes not a top tier foreign pro and the conduct he brought to the show was simply an instigation upon what had already been brought up. If he can't bring anything to the debate, or cannot conduct meaningful advances to the debate what did you think would happen after he was on for 10 minutes?
It's not as big of a deal as you people are making it out to be, and it makes zero sense to me how you can objectively stand up for Avilo in this showing. This is coming from someone who has many LgN friends, and I fully respect Avilo as well, but seriously, you're just being irrational if you are attempting to cry loud enough that this is "disprespect" and needs to be brought to forefront of the community. Get over yourselves.
Did you read what I wrote?! The first thing he did when he came on was thank them for letting him on. He AGREED with Idra on more than one occasion. I also noted that he isn't the best debater...but on top of all that, you're still missing the point of the article. The point is that you can not think of your podcast as one of the best and strive to be the best while disrespecting people on your show.
You are also stating things that I agree with. I also give advice on how to get over those obstacles with examples.
If you don't enjoy SOTG, don't watch. I'm not just saying this for it to be the "nobody gives a shit about you think" kind of response (although that's true too). It is an honest advice - don't watch. Or at the very least consider whether the show has any value left to you.
They really don't say anything on the show that you wouldn't know otherwise, there's no insider feel to it, there's really not as many insightful comments on any topic, if we're being honest for the longest time now it was just generic discussion, cheap humor and an occasional shitstorm-inducing drama to mix it up. It can be entertaining if you're into that kind of stuff, otherwise it's going to be cringe inducing on a regular basis and you're shooting yourself in the foot by watching it.
This whole raising awareness and trying to change things on a larger scale won't work. What does work is organizing your SC2-related time and content to match your preferences. Focus on things you enjoy, run from everything else.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
People are allowed to strive for ideals that don't always exist in "the real world." This is the one of the stupidest "slippery slope" arguments I have ever seen: people beat the shit out of other people in the real world, does that make it right? people steal from others in the real world, does that make it right? people mock and haze others in the real world, does that make it right? Based on your logic, all these things are fine because they occur "in the real world", even if they don't fit the definition of "mature." Sure, no one is forcing anyone to be mature (which the OP has made clear numerous times in this thread), but you sure as hell aren't gaining any fans by being a fucking asshole which you seem to think is fine because people are fucking assholes "in the real world."
You completely misunderstand because what we're saying is that this is how people act on mainstream media shows, which is what we would aspire too right? You think that mainstream talk shows are never rude to people because they are, often, and the usual reaction is that we laugh about it. The only people who get so hurt because of rudeness on talk shows are apparently people in the SC2 community.
Because no one else in the world that watches said programs has an opinion, right?
Not hearing any backlash/=/ there is no backlash. People have opinions that change their outtake on a certain person based on what they do/say.
OK? so what?
So citing talk shows as proof that this is an acceptable way to act doesn't work?
I would also love some citation of ANY clip, from ANY show. Good chance is that they're making fun of someone on purpose, or quite frankly, its a pretty shit show(at least in my taste).
On June 30 2012 13:53 striderxxx wrote: SOTG isn't very good anymore, but it's the only thing out there. They have complete bias and one sided arguements, like when they used to have all protoss representatives. Now they are EG heavy.
You noticed that too, eh?
Don't you think it's possible that people on EG just generally want to do the show?
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
This to you is usual e-sports behavior?! Then I for one don't want to be a part of e-sports. Call it unprofessional or disrespect, I don't care. The fact that you go on a show about SC and call another player a fucking imbecile and tell him to shut the fuck up is mind-blowing to me. For people to sponsor that kind of behavior is also just as mind-blowing. If this was any other major sport, that player would be issuing an apology.
Oh no! Someones being rude over the internet? Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me? This isn't fucking the NFL or the NBA or any body of sports that will fine you THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for being a jack ass. This is a COMMUNITY RUN SHOW for a VIDEO GAME. This fucking mantra of "hurr durr esports must be professional" is really fucking annoying.
I really don't understand this at all. Why can't the argument be...Oh no! Someone's being nice and respectful over the internet?! Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me!? See the difference there?! This fucking mantra of e-sports must be professional is the only way e-sports is going to be taken to the next level!!!
While I agree that the state of the game ppl were being way too hostile towards Avilo, I have to agree with IdrA though.
The metagame is not stabilized yet. Terrans haven't found their new timing. Sure, right now, on paper you can say "oh zerg so OP blah blah blah." But seriously, look at TVP two months back. Everyone was crying OP then. Then what happened? MVP figured shit out, and he won a GSL, and that shut everyone up. I find it really interesting that for the past half a year, the only ones crying IMBA are terrans. Queen buff and overlord scout affects ZVP too, but for some reason I don't hear any protoss player complaining.
By this point, we should all realize the fact that JP brought Avilo on for no other reason but to humiliate him. Why? Because in JP/IdrA's opinion, Avilo is just a Terran player and a crying baby. There was no other result that could have happened. Besides the brutal cut off at the end, I have to say that it could've been way worse than Avilo.
On June 30 2012 13:16 MetalPanda wrote: Disrespect isn't that bad of a thing as you might subject, I think. You can't like or respect everyone. It was unprofessional, yes, but not at a dramatic point. SOTG isn't the news nor is it mainstream at all. There's not a lot restraining Idra to not say ''shut the fuck up'' to someone you hate that cuts you off when talking (taking his perspective on what happened), besides maybe sponsors, but even then. Idra just really dislikes Avilo, it's just how it is, it was destined to be explosive. The decision to call Avilo knowing all this was worse than the result.
This to me is just the usual e-sports drama.
This to you is usual e-sports behavior?! Then I for one don't want to be a part of e-sports. Call it unprofessional or disrespect, I don't care. The fact that you go on a show about SC and call another player a fucking imbecile and tell him to shut the fuck up is mind-blowing to me. For people to sponsor that kind of behavior is also just as mind-blowing. If this was any other major sport, that player would be issuing an apology.
Oh no! Someones being rude over the internet? Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me? This isn't fucking the NFL or the NBA or any body of sports that will fine you THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for being a jack ass. This is a COMMUNITY RUN SHOW for a VIDEO GAME. This fucking mantra of "hurr durr esports must be professional" is really fucking annoying.
I really don't understand this at all. Why can't the argument be...Oh no! Someone's being nice and respectful over the internet?! Oh no! Jesus christ are you joking me!? See the difference there?! This fucking mantra of e-sports must be professional is the only way e-sports is going to be taken to the next level!!!
Feel free to offer proof that acting completely professional is the only way to get to the next level. Especially since some of the biggest names in e-sports are shrouded in controversy. IdrA's stream gets far more than any Korean zerg stream, even someone like DRG or Nestea, and not because he's particularly great. You have a very limited world view if you believe the only way for e-sports to be sucessful is to act professional. No, the way for e-sports to be successful is to generate interest in watching a video game. When people are told about Starcraft 2, I doubt they go "Do all the professional players smile at each other, shake hands, and thank their family for their victory?" They go "is this interesting and why will it interest me?"
Maybe that will get your mom to watch the show, but no one watches ANYTHING on TV and goes "is that actor polite to other actors?" Last time I checked not too many people bash on asshole/bitchy actors/actresses for their behavior, they judge the entertainment based on the QUALITY OF ENTERTAINMENT. If you want e-sports to grow, have it appeal to the mainstream person---give a reason for someone to be changing the channel, see SC2, and choose to watch it over another program. IdrA and Incontrol calling avilo probably doesn't matter to anyone getting into the scene.
On June 30 2012 14:03 caneras wrote: The recap of what happened could be put in spoilers, or provide a link to the segment where it happens. The size of the post is intimidating with the entire bit included. Either way, a detailed, thought out perspective on what happened is a sight for sore eyes since the entire issue has been blown out of proportion in every possible direction.
I really wish the point of this post would be the thing that everyone is paying attention to.
iNcontroL can be a very mean person sometimes I don't understand why he does that, sometimes he acts like the big popular boy picking on the smaller kids(I'm not talking about only this Avilo thing, it's always been like this). I think I'm starting to understand why Day9 got out of the show.
On June 30 2012 14:03 RedBack wrote: I seriously wish mods would just delete mind numbingly stupid threads like this. They dont serve any purpose except to create more stupid drama while the OP jacks off at the attention he's getting.
I'm not trying to create drama. Did you read the post at all?
What the fuck stop posting about this. It's no big deal, and as a community it really sucks that we have so many dramawhores who love to blow these things way out of proportion.
Yeah, that SoTG was pretty weird and they were rude to Avilo, but I don't know anything about the SoTG hosts and their history with Avilo, or anything about Avilo in general... for all I know this disrespect exists for a good reason.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
Thanks. I was going to go off again but seeing as how upset this whole thing is making me I probably would have just sweared incoherently. I'll just repost the youtube video that Rhyinn happened to remove when quoting me. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of how people act in the mainstream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5jQRxLpy4
An asshole hangs up on an asshole. You posted this twice, so you feel it has relevance. I don't see it.
The relevance is so mindblowingly obvious I'm not sure where to start. You do realize this thread is about assholes hanging up on assholes right?
Actually I think this response is probably the best response I've heard on the other side that I'm arguing. Maybe I should just recognize the major pillars of SotG for the jackasses they are and just stop watching because that behavior frankly pisses me off.
Nonetheless, I would love to see people grow as human beings as I feel have managed to do since I was adolescent. I love the Pro SC2 scene, so I would love for a show that I have enjoyed many times in the past to also grow past this adolescent behavior. Rather than shutting everything down that I (to put simply) "don't agree with," I'd rather try to create dialogue to potentially grow and enrich minds. Simply turning one's head is quite the opposite of that.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
No idea what you're even talking about. As for it being a gangbang, no, it was pretty much IdrA and Incontrol, which are two people. That hardly qualifies as a gangbang. JP decided to end the show when he realized it wasn't going to go a good way anytime soon. People are acting like the entire State of the Game podcast went and beat the shit out of him in real life, made him eat dirt, then forever ruined his career. More like Incontrol laughed at him, IdrA called him an imbecile when avilo was acting like one, then JP cut him off because he saw the show was going nowhere. Better make a dozen threads about that super important situation.
What I'm talking about is that there's different ways to have dissent. Discussion and arguing is fine, the terms in which the discussion was in that particular time were not. Why even invite Avilo to the show if they're just gonna insult him and ignore the good points he was making (despite how badly they were drawn across). I understand when two friends argue and insult each other etc, that's normal. But you don't treat a person who isn't on your circle like that for no reason. At least most people I know don't do that, particularly when you invite them to participate on a discussion.
Avilo did not make good points. Avilo repeated the discussion that IdrA and qxc already had, which IdrA had given IMO a decent enough answer to, then twisted IdrA's words to claim that he agreed with avilo when IdrA clearly did not. There is a clear reason that they treated avilo like that. The transcript may not get it across but avilo seemed almost hysterical in the way he was talking. qxc then calmly repeated what avilo was trying to get across, but the late-game situation had already been discussed and avilo was adding nothing, and twisting IdrA's words.
In case you don't recall/didn't see it, IdrA said you can get on even footing macro wise with MMM and mass expansions, go marine-tank if you face ling/muta/baneling, go MMM/expand while sprinkling in marauders because zerg has to go ultra as their first T3 choice due to the MMM aggression, then put up 5 starports with your extra economy to pump out vikings during the broodlord tech switch.
Avilo's argument...was him saying this is impossible. He added nothing, and in the past has just been a complete balance whiner and extremely BM in general.
Doesn't matter. Completely irrelevant. You don't disrespect someone because his points aren't good. I'll give you that, OK, Avilo wasn't making good points, he's a noob and knows jack shit about SC2. Doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect him like that. I really liked the way Nony explained it in the SOTG thread.
I insist, I'd understand it if this were incontrol and idra arguing and idra was calling him an imbecile and a fucker, or artosis or whatever. These guys belong to the same circle, they have enough confidence to treat each other this way. Avilo is not part of it, he's a guest, and as a host, you show a minimum of respect and don't do this kind of thing. It's rude, that's all there is to it. It's really meaningless like many people here are saying, but I insist once again, if you do a public show on the internet, people are going to have an opinion on it, and all this outrage is just that, people voicing their opinion on a behaviour they don't agree on.
On June 30 2012 14:03 RedBack wrote: I seriously wish mods would just delete mind numbingly stupid threads like this. They dont serve any purpose except to create more stupid drama while the OP jacks off at the attention he's getting.
I'm not trying to create drama. Did you read the post at all?
i read as much of that drivel as i could be bothered doing, whether or not your intention is to create drama it doesnt matter, thats all your doing. Seriously dude get a hobby..... i know, maybe play some starcraft ?????
On June 30 2012 14:54 MichaelDonovan wrote: What the fuck stop posting about this. It's no big deal, and as a community it really sucks that we have so many dramawhores who love to blow these things way out of proportion.
"I don't agree with this, so I'm just going to label it as drama to dismiss it."
Pretty much what your post sounded like to me. Bringing up an occurrence that was rude, and quite frankly, helps set the tone for everyone else out there? ITS DEFINITELY DRAMA
On June 30 2012 13:49 VirgilSC2 wrote: So, to everyone justifying how they treated Avilo on SotG with the fact that he has a reputation of whining about imbalance, should they not treat IdrA the same way?
I've heard IdrA whine about Protoss so many times, even when Zerg is actually widely considered to be stronger in the match-up than Protoss is. Does that make it alright to mock him like they mocked Avilo?
It's pretty despicable to treat a guest like that on ANY show. They could have been mature about it, brought him on, let him say his piece on TvZ/ZvT, politely tell him his time was up and then end the segment, giving a really unknown player a bit of a popularity boost as the same time as fostering discussion. Instead they bring him on the show, mock and harass him (as well as Luckyfool, another NA player with some good insight), then hang up on him. Very immature.
because IdrA can carry out a calm conversation, seen with qxc. It's when you get obnoxious idiots like Avilo who prefer 1-liner balance complaints to actual in-depth conversation, does IdrA's bad side come out.
And people don't care about IdrA and his balance complaints because, 1) he's IdrA, he is a core figure of the SC community going way back to competing at Gomtv in Korea during broodwar.. Avilo is nothing community-wise to him. 2) IdrA doesn't have blogs, threads etc dedicated to balance complaints like Avilo does.. there is a differenc between that (dedicated threads to serious complaints about the game) and a mere "i hate protoss" that IdrA throws around when he's angry.
srsly can not believe people like you are making such a big deal out of this.
On June 30 2012 14:46 Talin wrote: If you don't enjoy SOTG, don't watch. I'm not just saying this for it to be the "nobody gives a shit about you think" kind of response (although that's true too). It is an honest advice - don't watch. Or at the very least consider whether the show has any value left to you.
They really don't say anything on the show that you wouldn't know otherwise, there's no insider feel to it, there's really not as many insightful comments on any topic, if we're being honest for the longest time now it was just generic discussion, cheap humor and an occasional shitstorm-inducing drama to mix it up. It can be entertaining if you're into that kind of stuff, otherwise it's going to be cringe inducing on a regular basis and you're shooting yourself in the foot by watching it.
This whole raising awareness and trying to change things on a larger scale won't work. What does work is organizing your SC2-related time and content to match your preferences. Focus on things you enjoy, run from everything else.
It is the only way.
I was about to post something very similar to this but you beat me to common sense. If the show has gone in a direction that you don't like by all means add your input or suggestions, but when it becomes apparent they wont be taken into account there's no sense in watching a show that you no longer enjoy. While I still enjoy it and will continue to watch it, I can understand how people may not like the direction it's taken since its original concept.
It's absurd there's a poll calling for it to be axed in this thread, just don't watch it!
On June 30 2012 14:04 dnld12 wrote: I'm sorry but im going to have to disagree with you on some things. But later on that First off: Avilo should've never EVER been brought onto the show. In the beginning, Idra, INcontrol, said 'comments' about Avilo. BAM. JP should've taken as a hint that bringing Avilo on the show would be aggrevating to the players. Also: QXC did a WONDERFUL job of discussing with Idra. In here we can show that Idra CAN get off his 'high' horse and talk to players who are logical and show respect.
Also this part in ur post: Idra felt that he got cut off while trying to make a point
Now, as for Avilo cutting off Idra. IN any discussion, in any debate, talking etc. If you have any respect: If you said you're point and you're done, that means YOU ARE DONE. Avilo cut off Idra. That means Idra had every right to say 'Shut the fuck up'. Why? Because Avilo was in the wrong. Was the words disrespectful sure why not. But by saying that is disrespectful is ignoring or belittling the fact that Avilo was NOT supposed to be talking in the first place. Idra respected Avilo's right to make a point but it is OBVIOUS that Avilo did NOT respect Idra's.
This, however, gives Idra no right to call Avilo a fucking imbecile.
Like i said before, Idra had every right to call him that. If i was trying to have a discussion and someone kept talking while i was trying to discuss. I would tell him or her to STOP. Let me talk cause i gave you your turn.
Incontrol stepping in to defend is teammate: there is nothing wrong with that. Using his Humor? Playing to his strengths? I think THAT is ignorant. When you see a FRIEND arguing, First response? Back friend up. Immediately.
Observers can say, "Oh its clearly Geoff is being bias" So what? If Incontrol is friends with IDra, than he has every right to back him up. It is not Incontrol's Duty to Be a peacekeeper in an arguement. YOu are placing 'expectations' on people because you want them to be there. You are not looking at the basic relationships each of the players have with one another.
You say something like, “This clearly isn’t going anywhere and I don’t feel like arguing anymore. InControl, what do you think of all of this?” Or…”This argument is making me mad. I don’t think my race is overpowered and that’s all I have to say about that.”
This part made me cringe. how do you say this? How do you think they can say this? I hate to used this over used qoute but : hindsight is 20/20. In an outside situation, you and i can say on our high horses and say : "oh he acted so uncivilized." Or " Oh he should've responded like this." BUT they are not perfect. They cannot control their anger as PERFECT as WE supposedly can. And since we probably CAN control our Anger so well, we should be able to judge them as such. Because we are so perfect when we are angry, we react to other acceptability when we are interrupted or get angry. JP drops Avilo from Skype. Really?
If ur really arruing about this, Go ahead and go Yell at Djwheat about dropping people on calls. Djwheat YELLS at people on LIve on THree, Yells on Inside the game. So DONT bring this up if you are NOT going to yell at Djwheat. That is double standard.
Finally this statement: Avilo said nothing, except being a little poor at debating, to warrant that kind of behavior. Taking the easy way out on this one was a bad choice.
I am sorry to say but you are riding on the band wagon. You look are looking at this with blinders on because it is easier to side with the supposed little guy than it is with the person who seems 'bad.'
This is message to anyone reading this post:
Everyone is human.
I completely agree with you on a lot of the things you say. I understand that Avilo cut off idra, that's why I said it! I don't want to seem like I have an agenda here that I clearly don't. I wanted to tell people that Idra was cut off because he was.
I don't watch Live on Three, so I'm sorry for not commenting about that. DjWheat could have a totally different show than SOTG. I have no idea. I wish I could comment on this, but I can't.
Everyone IS human. I love that. I totally agree with that as well. That is why I had made a couple of statements about learning from this and growing the show in a more professional way.
Did the SoTG thread cap out or something? Why even make a new thread about this, its the same stuff people have been saying all day yesterday. Its a silly situation that everyone is blowing out of proportion
On June 30 2012 14:54 MichaelDonovan wrote: What the fuck stop posting about this. It's no big deal, and as a community it really sucks that we have so many dramawhores who love to blow these things way out of proportion.
"I don't agree with this, so I'm just going to label it as drama to dismiss it."
Pretty much what your post sounded like to me. Bringing up an occurrence that was rude, and quite frankly, helps set the tone for everyone else out there? ITS DEFINITELY DRAMA
Seriously, if I didn't know any better, I would say 90 percent of this community is trolls. There's no way everyone is really this stupid. Legs are being pulled here, I think.
This kind of behaviour is really unpleasant. I just can't understand why people enjoy acting like this. Do they think such celebration of narrowmindedness might make them look smarter?
I was already tired of these young male behaviors; now I just won't watch or listen more content with those guys, who I feel badly degrade the level of the sc2 scene.
On June 30 2012 13:31 cmizzles wrote: Idra has every right to dismiss everything avilo and luckyfool have to say for the simple fact that they don't play starcraft 2 at the highest level. No matter what counter arguments Idra makes here, avilo is going to argue that it can't be done, when in actuality it just can't be done BY HIM. I'm not sure why avilo even wanted to go on the show when it was quite obvious that they were making fun of him, and were not going to take him seriously.
Idra had every right to argue with Avilo, which he did. No one has the right to dismiss everything someone says about the game of SC2. Avilo said it himself, which I agree with..."Just because you're not the best, doesn't mean you can't bring things to the game." My whole point of the article was to teach them how to learn from this experience and not make fun of their guests.
Well, if you're not the best, it does mean that whatever you have to say, or whatever idea you have, isn't all that relevant to professional level balance discussion because you haven't competed in professional level competition. Do you think pro sports coaches read the newspaper to find out what strategies sportswriters think will work?
Coaches at every level have contributed to the understanding of their respective games, which is a more apt analogy. You don't have to have competed at a "professional level" to understand the game whether it be football or SC2. In football in particular defensive and offensive schemes that have originated at the high school or small-college level have filtered up to the biggest college teams and/or to the NFL. The best-known offensive example would be the spread offense.
Right, but the point is that just because something works or doesnt work at a lower level doesn't mean it will or wont work at a higher level. To go along with your football analogy, yea the spread offense is a great example of something that worked really well in college and translated well to the NFL, but how do you think Bill Belichick would react to a high school coach going on and on about how effective the triple option is. Do avilo or luckyfool have valid points in their argument? maybe. But can either of them have a reasonable balance discussion with Idra? No. That's why QXC was able to have a discussion with Idra and Avilo was not.
On June 30 2012 14:54 MichaelDonovan wrote: What the fuck stop posting about this. It's no big deal, and as a community it really sucks that we have so many dramawhores who love to blow these things way out of proportion.
"I don't agree with this, so I'm just going to label it as drama to dismiss it."
Pretty much what your post sounded like to me. Bringing up an occurrence that was rude, and quite frankly, helps set the tone for everyone else out there? ITS DEFINITELY DRAMA
Seriously, if I didn't know any better, I would say 90 percent of this community is trolls. There's no way everyone is really this stupid. Legs are being pulled here, I think.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
No idea what you're even talking about. As for it being a gangbang, no, it was pretty much IdrA and Incontrol, which are two people. That hardly qualifies as a gangbang. JP decided to end the show when he realized it wasn't going to go a good way anytime soon. People are acting like the entire State of the Game podcast went and beat the shit out of him in real life, made him eat dirt, then forever ruined his career. More like Incontrol laughed at him, IdrA called him an imbecile when avilo was acting like one, then JP cut him off because he saw the show was going nowhere. Better make a dozen threads about that super important situation.
What I'm talking about is that there's different ways to have dissent. Discussion and arguing is fine, the terms in which the discussion was in that particular time were not. Why even invite Avilo to the show if they're just gonna insult him and ignore the good points he was making (despite how badly they were drawn across). I understand when two friends argue and insult each other etc, that's normal. But you don't treat a person who isn't on your circle like that for no reason. At least most people I know don't do that, particularly when you invite them to participate on a discussion.
Avilo did not make good points. Avilo repeated the discussion that IdrA and qxc already had, which IdrA had given IMO a decent enough answer to, then twisted IdrA's words to claim that he agreed with avilo when IdrA clearly did not. There is a clear reason that they treated avilo like that. The transcript may not get it across but avilo seemed almost hysterical in the way he was talking. qxc then calmly repeated what avilo was trying to get across, but the late-game situation had already been discussed and avilo was adding nothing, and twisting IdrA's words.
In case you don't recall/didn't see it, IdrA said you can get on even footing macro wise with MMM and mass expansions, go marine-tank if you face ling/muta/baneling, go MMM/expand while sprinkling in marauders because zerg has to go ultra as their first T3 choice due to the MMM aggression, then put up 5 starports with your extra economy to pump out vikings during the broodlord tech switch.
Avilo's argument...was him saying this is impossible. He added nothing, and in the past has just been a complete balance whiner and extremely BM in general.
Doesn't matter. Completely irrelevant. You don't disrespect someone because his points aren't good. I'll give you that, OK, Avilo wasn't making good points, he's a noob and knows jack shit about SC2. Doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect him like that. I really liked the way Nony explained it in the SOTG thread.
I insist, I'd understand it if this were incontrol and idra arguing and idra was calling him an imbecile and a fucker, or artosis or whatever. These guys belong to the same circle, they have enough confidence to treat each other this way. Avilo is not part of it, he's a guest, and as a host, you show a minimum of respect and don't do this kind of thing. It's rude, that's all there is to it. It's really meaningless like many people here are saying, but I insist once again, if you do a public show on the internet, people are going to have an opinion on it, and all this outrage is just that, people voicing their opinion on a behaviour they don't agree on.
It's not irrelevant. They have a bad history with avilo and trash talk each other a good bit. Avilo is also extremely BM, and also insulted Incontrol for not making it into WCS and claimed to be the superior player (I believe). There was clearly tension between them. It was obviously in retrospect a very bad idea to bring avilo on the show, but they do NOT respect each other and there is no reason to force respect. If you were watching the show up to that point it was also fairly obvious what was going to happen with the way they were talking/mocking avilo, then saying "of course he will want to come on", and then avilo did in fact want to come on. I mean seriously what was avilo expecting? The community is making him out to be a martyr for no reason---even if you are unaware of their history there is an obvious reason IdrA and the cast were respectful to qxc despite him no longer being an extremely good player, but not to avilo.
It's extremely clear that someone like avilo went onto the show to voice his balance whining infront of 10k people. He had NO intention to have an actual argument and no one expected it. Avilo chose to go on the show after his bad history with half of the cast, then dropped stupid opinions, and now people are saying RESPECT HIM just because he's a guest?
On June 30 2012 13:05 OceanLab wrote: What bothers me was how JP dropped him off the skype call. How hard can it be to say "this isn't going anywhere, thanks for coming on the show avilo blah blah" and then drop him? It confirms what I've always thought about JP though, not a great host by any stretch of the imagination...
On June 30 2012 14:54 MichaelDonovan wrote: What the fuck stop posting about this. It's no big deal, and as a community it really sucks that we have so many dramawhores who love to blow these things way out of proportion.
On the other hand, people need to stop sucking progamer cocks. It's unbelievable how far people are going to justify whatever nonsense their almighty idol comes up with this time. And JP is a retard, doesn't surprise me.
Incontrol, Jp, and Idra just acted very unprofessional. The fact is, when you're on a talk show that has thousands of viewers you need to put on a different face because what they're saying are influencing a ton of people. State of the Game just hasn't been the same and I don't know if i can watch it anymore if behavior like this keeps up.
On June 30 2012 13:33 fraktoasters wrote: This whole thing is fucking disgusting and I can't believe you put so much time and effort into something just because people on SoTG acted like human beings. You're right, SC Behavior is going backwards because instead of actually trying to act like mature thinking adults, there are idiots on this forum that feel the need to bash people and try to hurt the scene for any little reason you can think of. Being rude to people is so fucking small and irrelevant and literally no one in the world but you losers would give a fuck.
Of course they acted like human beings...disrespectful human beings. You are the only person who posts on here and you are very upset at what? "Us losers" who care about the community and it's image?!
I AM a mature thinking adult who posts legit ways of dealing with people exactly like you! You are the exact thing that I am trying to get rid of in this community. I am not trying to hurt the scene for any "little reason" I can think of, I'm actually trying to do the complete opposite. You didn't even read the article did you?
Being rude to other players is not small and definitely not irrelevant.
The funny thing about people who call themselves mature, is that they assume the way they behave is the superior and more "adult" way of acting. You are not a "mature thinking adult", you are a person with your opinion on how a community full of human beings should act, on a show known for sometimes being a bit outrageous, with community figures such as Incontrol and IdrA that are known to act in a way that offended "mature thinking adults" such as yourself.
Step out into the real world, where there is constant shit talking in real sports, all communities have dissent, people mock others, people form cliques, etc. By saying you want SotG to act in a "mature" and "professional" manner, you really mean that you want everyone to act like polite robots that fit your image of how people should properly behave. You literally just spent probably an hour writing out that transcript and the rest of the original thread to trash an online video game podcast and you consider yourself a mature adult attempting to help out the scene?
So what you mean is that people in the real world argue by insulting people who aren't their friends and gangbanging on them?
Holy shit my real world must be a parallel universe or something. I insult the fuck out of my friends when I argue with them, if our friendship regularly involves such treatment. Someone who isn't my friend who I'm having an argument with? Why the flying fuck would I insult him and call him "imbecile" "fucker" among other disrespectful stuff? That's just rude.
No idea what you're even talking about. As for it being a gangbang, no, it was pretty much IdrA and Incontrol, which are two people. That hardly qualifies as a gangbang. JP decided to end the show when he realized it wasn't going to go a good way anytime soon. People are acting like the entire State of the Game podcast went and beat the shit out of him in real life, made him eat dirt, then forever ruined his career. More like Incontrol laughed at him, IdrA called him an imbecile when avilo was acting like one, then JP cut him off because he saw the show was going nowhere. Better make a dozen threads about that super important situation.
What I'm talking about is that there's different ways to have dissent. Discussion and arguing is fine, the terms in which the discussion was in that particular time were not. Why even invite Avilo to the show if they're just gonna insult him and ignore the good points he was making (despite how badly they were drawn across). I understand when two friends argue and insult each other etc, that's normal. But you don't treat a person who isn't on your circle like that for no reason. At least most people I know don't do that, particularly when you invite them to participate on a discussion.
Avilo did not make good points. Avilo repeated the discussion that IdrA and qxc already had, which IdrA had given IMO a decent enough answer to, then twisted IdrA's words to claim that he agreed with avilo when IdrA clearly did not. There is a clear reason that they treated avilo like that. The transcript may not get it across but avilo seemed almost hysterical in the way he was talking. qxc then calmly repeated what avilo was trying to get across, but the late-game situation had already been discussed and avilo was adding nothing, and twisting IdrA's words.
In case you don't recall/didn't see it, IdrA said you can get on even footing macro wise with MMM and mass expansions, go marine-tank if you face ling/muta/baneling, go MMM/expand while sprinkling in marauders because zerg has to go ultra as their first T3 choice due to the MMM aggression, then put up 5 starports with your extra economy to pump out vikings during the broodlord tech switch.
Avilo's argument...was him saying this is impossible. He added nothing, and in the past has just been a complete balance whiner and extremely BM in general.
Doesn't matter. Completely irrelevant. You don't disrespect someone because his points aren't good. I'll give you that, OK, Avilo wasn't making good points, he's a noob and knows jack shit about SC2. Doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect him like that. I really liked the way Nony explained it in the SOTG thread.
I insist, I'd understand it if this were incontrol and idra arguing and idra was calling him an imbecile and a fucker, or artosis or whatever. These guys belong to the same circle, they have enough confidence to treat each other this way. Avilo is not part of it, he's a guest, and as a host, you show a minimum of respect and don't do this kind of thing. It's rude, that's all there is to it. It's really meaningless like many people here are saying, but I insist once again, if you do a public show on the internet, people are going to have an opinion on it, and all this outrage is just that, people voicing their opinion on a behaviour they don't agree on.
It's not irrelevant. They have a bad history with avilo and trash talk each other a good bit. Avilo is also extremely BM, and also insulted Incontrol for not making it into WCS and claimed to be the superior player (I believe). There was clearly tension between them. It was obviously in retrospect a very bad idea to bring avilo on the show, but they do NOT respect each other and there is no reason to force respect. If you were watching the show up to that point it was also fairly obvious what was going to happen with the way they were talking/mocking avilo, then saying "of course he will want to come on", and then avilo did in fact want to come on. I mean seriously what was avilo expecting? The community is making him out to be a martyr for no reason---even if you are unaware of their history there is an obvious reason IdrA and the cast were respectful to qxc despite him no longer being an extremely good player, but not to avilo.
It's extremely clear that someone like avilo went onto the show to voice his balance whining infront of 10k people. He had NO intention to have an actual argument and no one expected it. Avilo chose to go on the show after his bad history with half of the cast, then dropped stupid opinions, and now people are saying RESPECT HIM just because he's a guest?
I almost agreed with you until the last paragraph. I really don't understand why Avilo would agree to be on the show on the first place, but it also seems to me like he was just set up to fail, which is also a sucky attitude. Why even invite him in the first place? It's just... childish... stupid... even for SOTG it seems worthless. And yes you respect guests just because they're guests, unless they do something worthy of such disrespect, which, in this particular case, Avilo didn't do.
Like I said previously, it really doesn't matter, it's just a sad thing to watch. Supposedly grown adults doing these things? I can buy it from people in high school or something, that's normal teenage behaviour, but at this stage? It's just weird. Well, maybe it's just not my type of show, whatever.
EPT
