EPTOn May 02 2012 14:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sdyrV.gif)
Chris Bosh is one strange looking guy
NBA Playoffs 2012 - Page 32
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Skullflower
United States3779 Posts
Chris Bosh is one strange looking guy | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
As an aside for Kobe's shooting: I think as long he as has good shot selection and he's shooting with both of his bigs in position it CAN work against a team like Denver. Derrick Rose got away with it in Chicago, Kobe can too. As long as the matchups are there. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:11 Ace wrote: http://www.nba.com/heat/news/the_sacrifice_rebounding_120501.html As an aside for Kobe's shooting: I think as long he as has good shot selection and he's shooting with both of his bigs in position it CAN work against a team like Denver. Derrick Rose got away with it in Chicago, Kobe can too. As long as the matchups are there. I find it interesting that the article points out that the guards and swingman help rebound but doesnt really tell you how they do it which is the more amazing part. Just saying "they are super athletic" doesnt give Spoelstra enough credit imo. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:21 Ace wrote: Wade was living in the paint vs Dallas. Lebron wasn't shooting at all. Seriously, Tyson Chandler is good and all but people are really blowing is defense out of the water vs Miami. Time after time Wade got to the rim and got whatever he wanted WITH Chandler in the game. If Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard can't stop Wade/Lebron why would anyone think Tyson Chandler has a chance? and now Bynum and Pau Gasol will too? /facepalm I swear people just make shit up. Link some evidence or it didn't happened. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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rei
United States3594 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:33 Ace wrote: Aren't you the one who said Chandler destroyed Wade and Lebron in the paint? Prove it. http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1167&bih=463&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Te1LTi7U1IT98M:&imgrefurl=http://store.makeitgraphic.net/dallasbasketballcom/64-nba-champions-poster.html&docid=zj7DZzElKE4VMM&imgurl=http://store.makeitgraphic.net/64-171-thickbox/nba-champions-poster.jpg&w=600&h=600&ei=pZqhT77qGeayiQLLooyvBw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=464&sig=106259396609424628224&page=1&tbnh=157&tbnw=157&start=0&ndsp=5&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:78&tx=77&ty=79 Now yours, stop dodging your burden of proof. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:36 rei wrote: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1167&bih=463&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Te1LTi7U1IT98M:&imgrefurl=http://store.makeitgraphic.net/dallasbasketballcom/64-nba-champions-poster.html&docid=zj7DZzElKE4VMM&imgurl=http://store.makeitgraphic.net/64-171-thickbox/nba-champions-poster.jpg&w=600&h=600&ei=pZqhT77qGeayiQLLooyvBw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=464&sig=106259396609424628224&page=1&tbnh=157&tbnw=157&start=0&ndsp=5&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:78&tx=77&ty=79 Now yours, stop dodging your burden of proof. Your kidding right ? I mean yeah Chandler was the reason the Mavs D was as tight as it was last season but thats hardly evidence. The only thing that proves is the Dallas Mavericks won the championship last season. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:35 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do you compare Kobe and Lebron for this season (both regular season and playoffs) if the Lakers end up winning the championship? Obviously, Lebron has had a monstrous regular season, but how far does that go if he's unable to lead the team to a championship again despite a severely depleted Eastern conference (Bulls w/o Rose, Magic w/o D12, Celtics aging and dealing with health issues) and a Western conference with no clear favorite? Kobe's performance during this regular season has been impressive as well, and he arguably has had to deal with more adversity, i.e. new coach and system, major roster changes throughout the season, impacted schedule with less to rest and practice, etc. He's older and can't be said to have a better roster around him. If Kobe manages to lead the team to another championship, wouldn't that potentially make him the better player this season? Isn't the goal of every season is to win a championship, not to dominate a regular season? That's a pretty difficult question to answer. Sometimes, fading veterans have one last run in them, one fading sprint of pure adrenaline where they just leave it all on the court. I find Kobe's regular season not impressive from a basketball standpoint as his field goal % is too low. It is impressive from the standpoint of fighting advancing age. They have a chance. There are really no favorites in the West. OKC has flaws and the Lakers seem to match up well with the Spurs. Who knows if Lebron is going to pull off another disappearing act. But even if they do win the championship, it's hard to think that Kobe's still the better player. But there's a reason veterans with something left in the tank are routinely called cagey, I guess. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:36 rei wrote: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1167&bih=463&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Te1LTi7U1IT98M:&imgrefurl=http://store.makeitgraphic.net/dallasbasketballcom/64-nba-champions-poster.html&docid=zj7DZzElKE4VMM&imgurl=http://store.makeitgraphic.net/64-171-thickbox/nba-champions-poster.jpg&w=600&h=600&ei=pZqhT77qGeayiQLLooyvBw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=464&sig=106259396609424628224&page=1&tbnh=157&tbnw=157&start=0&ndsp=5&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:78&tx=77&ty=79 Now yours, stop dodging your burden of proof. First of all, rei didn't assert that Chandler "destroyed" Wade and Lebron in the paint or anything like that. He just made a comment about how Wade and Lebron shot too many jumpshots during the finals last year with Chandler in the paint, and that he believes it'll happen again if they face the Lakers with Gasol and Bynum in the paint. I didn't see him argue that Chandler was the sole reason. I think Ace was assuming that because so many people have made Chandler out to be an incredible defensive force that single-handedly shut down the paint in last year's finals. With that said, rei's responses seems to indicate that he does believe that Chandler was responsible for keeping Wade and Lebron out of the paint and taking jumpshots, or at least is skeptical of the fact that he wasn't. Posting the image of Dallas winning the championship last year does nothing to support the fact that Chandler was responsible for making Wade and Lebron take too many jumpshots, or that Wade even did. As such, this whole "stop dodging your burden of proof" demand isn't warranted since rei was the one who made the initial unsupported claim (Chandler keeping Wade and Lebron out of the paint) and still hasn't provided any evidence of it. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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rei
United States3594 Posts
On May 03 2012 07:13 Ace wrote: I'm not even going to take rei seriously I was hoping you are going to go through tons of data from last year's final and spend hours trying to type up something in response. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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rei
United States3594 Posts
Shit's not happening yo.(lol look at lin's reaction right after the play) oh and ![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/14sigt1.jpg) this is during game 2 of last year's final. I'm sure you all remember what happen during game 2 right? | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:55 andrewlt wrote: That's a pretty difficult question to answer. Sometimes, fading veterans have one last run in them, one fading sprint of pure adrenaline where they just leave it all on the court. I find Kobe's regular season not impressive from a basketball standpoint as his field goal % is too low. It is impressive from the standpoint of fighting advancing age. They have a chance. There are really no favorites in the West. OKC has flaws and the Lakers seem to match up well with the Spurs. Who knows if Lebron is going to pull off another disappearing act. But even if they do win the championship, it's hard to think that Kobe's still the better player. But there's a reason veterans with something left in the tank are routinely called cagey, I guess. I don't see how the fading/cagey veterans argument factors in when comparing who is the better player this year. The question is whether Kobe playing in such a way that he leads his team to a championship this year, which implies that Lebron did not do so, would make him the better player this year. The reason why he plays that way or not is irrelevant. Are you saying that Kobe winning a championship this season as a veteran is somehow different from him winning one as a younger player? If so, I fail to see the difference or how it would affect who is the better player this season. The question is whether Kobe outperforming Lebron in this postseason in terms of team success would make him the better player this season. Personally, I think there would be a good argument that Kobe was the better player this season. FYI, this is not a Lakers/Kobe-specific issue, and I would argue the same thing for Durant, Dirk or Parker. | ||
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Bonzinator
Slovenia862 Posts
So i wouldn't credit all the good work to Chandler. Obviously he played a key part in that defense. But it wasn't onyl him. If you ask me i just think Heat defeted themselfs last year. Lots of issues with LBJ and whole who is going to take over and everything. But no way its going to happen this year, but for now ill be happy if they reach ECF. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On May 03 2012 07:32 rei wrote: it takes a team to play defense, and if you have someone trolling hard like this + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AZqqYW9DQs Shit's not happening yo.(lol look at lin's reaction right after the play) oh and this is during game 2 of last year's final. I'm sure you all remember what happen during game 2 right? Way to show a single quarter during a 6 game series. This is Wade's shot chart for all 6 games: Game 1 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/81jbz.gif) Game 2 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oIuRh.gif) Game 3 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WVMoH.gif) Game 4 + Show Spoiler + shot-chart was not available on ESPN but Wade had 32 pts on 13-20 shooting :o Game 5 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sYhrQ.gif) Game 6 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WY9ls.gif) I only put Chandler as opposite of Wade bc it wouldn't let me leave it blank. I am not even showing Lebron so we can see where the evidence lies already... | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On May 03 2012 07:33 XaI)CyRiC wrote: I don't see how the fading/cagey veterans argument factors in when comparing who is the better player this year. The question is whether Kobe playing in such a way that he leads his team to a championship this year, which implies that Lebron did not do so, would make him the better player this year. The reason why he plays that way or not is irrelevant. Are you saying that Kobe winning a championship this season as a veteran is somehow different from him winning one as a younger player? If so, I fail to see the difference or how it would affect who is the better player this season. The question is whether Kobe outperforming Lebron in this postseason in terms of team success would make him the better player this season. Personally, I think there would be a good argument that Kobe was the better player this season. FYI, this is not a Lakers/Kobe-specific issue, and I would argue the same thing for Durant, Dirk or Parker. I can't believe some people still believe that Kobe's outperforming Lebron at this point. Lebron's a vastly better defender who shuts down the opponents biggest threat. The heat won more games. The Lakers had a good record when Kobe sat out. Lebron rebounds more and is capable of 10+ rebound games whenever the heat need it. Lebron creates better shots for his teammates. Lebron has a much, much better fg% than Kobe (like kobe:adam morrison level difference). The Heat went further than the Lakers last year. Lebron averaged 1 less point while taking 4 less fg attempts. Kobe is more valuable in the same way Derek Fisher is valuable than the average starting point guard. There was a much better argument 2 years ago, when the Lakers were in the finals, but this year the Heat are the defending eastern conference champions, and the Lakers aren't even a semifinal champion. If the San Antonio Spurs win the NBA finals this year, that doesn't make Tim Duncan the better player (this season). | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:18 igotmyown wrote: I can't believe some people still believe that Kobe's outperforming Lebron at this point. Lebron's a vastly better defender who shuts down the opponents biggest threat. The heat won more games. The Lakers had a good record when Kobe sat out. Lebron rebounds more and is capable of 10+ rebound games whenever the heat need it. Lebron creates better shots for his teammates. Lebron has a much, much better fg% than Kobe (like kobe:adam morrison level difference). The Heat went further than the Lakers last year. Lebron averaged 1 less point while taking 4 less fg attempts. Kobe is more valuable in the same way Derek Fisher is valuable than the average starting point guard. There was a much better argument 2 years ago, when the Lakers were in the finals, but this year the Heat are the defending eastern conference champions, and the Lakers aren't even a semifinal champion. If the San Antonio Spurs win the NBA finals this year, that doesn't make Tim Duncan the better player (this season). The heat only went further because the Lakers ran into the Mavericks first. Just sayin. Heat go further in the playoffs because the East is weak. The Heat will win the East this time around again because the East is still weak now especially with Dwight Howard and Rose out. To give credit to Lebron in the Lebron vs Kobe debate because of the playoffs last year is just stupid. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:18 igotmyown wrote: I can't believe some people still believe that Kobe's outperforming Lebron at this point. Lebron's a vastly better defender who shuts down the opponents biggest threat. The heat won more games. The Lakers had a good record when Kobe sat out. Lebron rebounds more and is capable of 10+ rebound games whenever the heat need it. Lebron creates better shots for his teammates. Lebron has a much, much better fg% than Kobe (like kobe:adam morrison level difference). The Heat went further than the Lakers last year. Lebron averaged 1 less point while taking 4 less fg attempts. Kobe is more valuable in the same way Derek Fisher is valuable than the average starting point guard. There was a much better argument 2 years ago, when the Lakers were in the finals, but this year the Heat are the defending eastern conference champions, and the Lakers aren't even a semifinal champion. If the San Antonio Spurs win the NBA finals this year, that doesn't make Tim Duncan the better player (this season). I think you may have misread my post and/or not considered the context. I'm not arguing or even suggesting that Kobe is outperforming Lebron right now. I posed the question as to how andrewlt would compare Kobe and Lebron if Kobe managed to lead the Lakers to a championship this year, suggesting that there may be an argument that Kobe is the "better player" (his term, not mine) this season (which would include the regular and post season) if it happened. As for your points, Lebron is clearly a better defender, more efficient scorer, and better at creating offense for his teammates. However, and this is kind of where I was going with my questions, how much does all of that "weigh" in comparison to leading a team to a championship? If the Heat are unable to win a championship with Lebron leading them as their best player, does that detract at all from the above-listed areas? It's not like Kobe is having a modest season or playing second-fiddle to Pau or Bynum. Also, doesn't Kobe get credit for being a more versatile and skilled scorer on the perimeter and in the post, while also being very good in the other areas of the game? Just because Lebron is better in more facets of the game, it doesn't suddenly make Kobe only average or slightly above-average in those areas. Couldn't it be argued that Kobe leading his team to a championship while being inferior but still great in general skills/performance should be considered the better player than Lebron failing to lead his team to a championship while being superior in more facets of the game THIS season? It's an obviously imperfect/incomplete hypothetical because we'd have to factor in how much Lebron and Kobe contributed to their teams successes/failures, how well their teammates played, etc., but that's why I'm only posing my question as proposing a contention and not establishing a certainty. With regards to some of your other points: (1) Miami's success last season relative to the Lakers' and status as defending Eastern conference champions is irrelevant to assessing who is the better player this season; (2) while the Lakers did well without Kobe with Bynum and Pau, the Heat also did well without Lebron with Wade and Bosh; (3) I don't consider it a big deal that Lebron "could" get 10+ rebounds in a game if his team needs it, but Kobe is a great rebounder for his position and is capable of the same thing; (4) I'm not sure what you mean by "Kobe is more valuable in the same way Derek Fisher is valuable than the average starting point guard", but there's no comparing Kobe and Fisher in any way and suggesting that Kobe is only slightly better than the average SG is absurd; and (5) if the Spurs win it this year, it will almost certainly be Parker who should get the credit, and I think Parker is much further from Lebron in terms of skills/ability than Kobe, which would make greater postseason success less likely to bridge the gap between the two. | ||
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