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On June 17 2012 01:56 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 15:17 city42 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Basketball is easily the hardest to ref mainstream sport.
It doesn't come anywhere close to soccer. Much bigger field of play, more players, no video review or technology of any kind, and the players sell every foul and contest every decision that goes against them. With that being said, modern basketball is also stupidly hard to ref due to the speed of the game. Anywhere close?.. Come on. I've played plenty of soccer and watched it for years. You can make a claim that the cost of refs mistake is generally higher in soccer, since one goal can decide the outcome, but reffing itself is light years behind basketball in complexity. It is usually not that hard to see contact on a tackle, whether it hit the ball or the ankle first, also a lot of contact doesn't get called period, because it is allowed. Soccer has nothing like drives to the basket where you can't touch the person driving or get a call against you if your feet are misplaced or sometimes if your defensive motions look 'bad'. In bball everything is just quicker and the attention needs to be there nonstop. In soccer refs can actually err on the side of not calling and not get any flak for that, most outrage comes from them making a call where it wasn't deserved, i.e. penalties and red (2nd yellow) cards, which is game-changing.
Its an apples to oranges comparison.
As for getting calls right, basketball is obviously harder, Football has alot of room for interpretation when it comes to contact so its not that bad. But ofc big mistakes can cost games but that doesnt make the job itself harder.
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I think there is definitely a case to be made for star players not getting calls against them. This was supremely evident as far back as Shaq and Iverson in their primes- where Shaq almost never got called for throwing elbows around the rim, and Iverson would carry the ball almost every time he started his crossover.
For those of you who don't think Lebron James gets preferential treatment from officials (and ps that was totally a foul on Durant by the rules of this game) watch all of LBJ's highlight videos. The guy takes 3+ steps on the majority of his drives to the rim. The internet lexicon of "if you look closely Lebron traveled" came about for a reason. Refs want to see highlight reel plays too, and the stars almost always get treatment. Kevin Garnett is notorious for moving through screens and almost never gets it called on him. I don't understand how anyone can watch basketball and not believe that the star players get preferential treatment from the officiating.
While it's purely a matter of personal opinion, I'd argue that just about any other player on Miami gets called for a foul on that play doing the exact same thing to Durant on the shot.
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every player carries the ball during crossovers...AI was the one player notorious for getting called out on his whistles. I think you are confused about your examples.
lebrons jump step is legal, and a rule was implemented to verify its legality.
kg's moving screens are done so in a manner that is legal.
and for lebrons foul on durant, miami had a foul to give, and the original contact was on the floor, kd just tried to milk it for a shooting foul and the ref didn't bite. I'm not saying it wasn't a botched call, but it certainly didn't decide the outcome of that game.
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Chris Paul carries on every dribble, ha.
Great points by Holcan. Especially the foul to give. People need to watch more than 4 NBA games a year before they start talking.
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On June 17 2012 04:02 Jerubaal wrote:
This is the last thing I'm going to say on the subject:
Bad calls are made in the game and there's nothing you can do about it and you have to live with it. But your attempts at justification are idiotic. A bad call is a bad call is a bad call is a bad call.
Fuck.
Hey look something I wasn't even refuting. One bad call is no worse than any other bad call at any other time in the game so focusing and harping on one as if that was the sole reason you lost when it was one of MANY bad calls in favor of both teams is a trivial and kneejerk excuse for losing a game. No one is fucking justifying bad calls, I'm saying one bad call isn't as big a deal as the media and fans make it out to be. All you seem to do is spit out strawmen.
On June 17 2012 04:51 Durp wrote:
I think there is definitely a case to be made for star players not getting calls against them. This was supremely evident as far back as Shaq and Iverson in their primes- where Shaq almost never got called for throwing elbows around the rim, and Iverson would carry the ball almost every time he started his crossover.
For those of you who don't think Lebron James gets preferential treatment from officials (and ps that was totally a foul on Durant by the rules of this game) watch all of LBJ's highlight videos. The guy takes 3+ steps on the majority of his drives to the rim. The internet lexicon of "if you look closely Lebron traveled" came about for a reason. Refs want to see highlight reel plays too, and the stars almost always get treatment. Kevin Garnett is notorious for moving through screens and almost never gets it called on him. I don't understand how anyone can watch basketball and not believe that the star players get preferential treatment from the officiating.
While it's purely a matter of personal opinion, I'd argue that just about any other player on Miami gets called for a foul on that play doing the exact same thing to Durant on the shot.
No they don't. The floor ref was out of position and could not see Lebron fouling him. Remember, he was standing at the spot of the inbounds and didn't move down the baseline to get the same angle we did. If anyone else fouls, like that, then the ref doesn't see it.
He should have been in better position but it's hard to gauge that in basketball.
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On June 17 2012 01:17 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 16:35 Ace wrote:On June 16 2012 10:08 Leyra wrote:
My silly solution for the NBA (A little silly, but a little smart).
Step 1. No more preferential treatment for stars (If you don't think stars get the benefit, you're dumb)
Step 2. No more DQ at 6 fouls.
Step 3. Every foul from 6 up is a 1shot technical and retain the ball (as in if your team is on offense, and you get fouled, you shoot 1 and keep the ball)
Step 4. Maybe even add something like 8th foul is shooting 2, or something.
Essentially make a huge penalty for every foul after 6, but not remove players from the game. I hate watching games where the stars can't play because of foul trouble, but I hate even more watching Lebron James average less than 2 fouls per game, which even MJ never did. that is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. And LeBron is a better defender than MJ so stop throwing his name around like it's some crutch for defensive standards. Jordan was 1988 DPOY btw. Averaged 37.5 ppg that season too.
jordan didn't guard 5 positions in a playoffs series. or singlehandedly raise the dRTG of his team by 6pp/100.
the DPOY and the MVP are also almost never given out to the same player in the same season, and there was a strong case to be made for LBJ to be one of the only persons to receive it his year (if not for Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, and KGs elite defensive seasons.) there's a ton of politicking involved in giving out awards like that.
that'd be lebron.
jordan had pippen, rodman, and a host of other extremely proficient defenders.
admittedly the heat have wade, who is an elite top 3 OAT 2, and top 3 2 defenders in the league. he has and never has had anything like rodman/pippen concurrently in his short NBA career. (keep in mind if LBJ wins the ship this year it will have been before MJ won his first, obv age is a factor, but still, his body of work leading here is absolutely insane, and it goes beyond "37ppg.")
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Um....looking forward to the game tonight!! 
Hoping we can take the lead in this series and take a convincing win at home. I enjoy the cries of a home crowd, even if Miami is supposed to have among the worst fans... Heat hwaiting!
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The game is on Sunday, not tonight  which is good for me, as im going to a place that doesnt have cable, but bad for you if you cleared your schedule expecting a game xD
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On June 17 2012 07:17 Aerisky wrote:Um....looking forward to the game tonight!! Hoping we can take the lead in this series and take a convincing win at home. I enjoy the cries of a home crowd, even if Miami is supposed to have among the worst fans... Heat hwaiting!
Shifting the series to Miami = 2 days off.
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Wait.......OH RIGHT, no shit! Sorry lol. It's been like this the whole playoffs, was so eager that I forgot about it T_T
Well, some much needed rest for the Heat  and yeah @Holcan tomorrow will actually be a terrible time for me, oh well.
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On June 17 2012 01:56 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 15:17 city42 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Basketball is easily the hardest to ref mainstream sport.
It doesn't come anywhere close to soccer. Much bigger field of play, more players, no video review or technology of any kind, and the players sell every foul and contest every decision that goes against them. With that being said, modern basketball is also stupidly hard to ref due to the speed of the game. Anywhere close?.. Come on. I've played plenty of soccer and watched it for years. You can make a claim that the cost of refs mistake is generally higher in soccer, since one goal can decide the outcome, but reffing itself is light years behind basketball in complexity. It is usually not that hard to see contact on a tackle, whether it hit the ball or the ankle first, also a lot of contact doesn't get called period, because it is allowed. Soccer has nothing like drives to the basket where you can't touch the person driving or get a call against you if your feet are misplaced or sometimes if your defensive motions look 'bad'. In bball everything is just quicker and the attention needs to be there nonstop. In soccer refs can actually err on the side of not calling and not get any flak for that, most outrage comes from them making a call where it wasn't deserved, i.e. penalties and red (2nd yellow) cards, which is game-changing.
I never said that it's harder to make an individual call/decision in soccer than it is in basketball. In fact, I specifically mentioned that the speed of modern basketball is an issue for referees. Please read the post I was replying to. I am saying that on the whole, referees in soccer have a harder job, and the reasons are mainly the ones you've already outlined.
A single bad decision in a basketball game can never be blamed for a team's loss. Truly egregious things like 1993 WCF game 7, 2002 WCF game 6, or the 2006 finals, featuring prolonged stretches of unfair refereeing, are what stick out historically. The only single call that still reverberates through the league is the Pippen-Davis incident from game 5 of the 1994 Bulls-Knicks series. As for soccer, a single bad decision can almost directly account for a win or loss. Remember Sunderland vs. Man City last season? How about Man City vs. Tottenham? QPR vs. Chelsea? Tottenham vs. Bolton? Do you think Howard Webb will ever be allowed to forget not sending off de Jong in the WC finals (even though he did a great job refereeing an absurdly difficult game overall)? A soccer referee can get all but one decision right, and still take the full blame. In the NBA, Joey Crawford and Dick Bavetta have been making fans miserable for decades, and yet I doubt anybody can remember one specific bad call from either of them prior to a few weeks ago, except maybe for the hilarious foul on Wade near the end of 2006 finals game 5.
Basketball has its own unique problem in that superstars are impossible to officiate fairly. For every foul called on LeBron, there are a bunch that aren't called. However, the league is driven by fan money and no one would pay to watch LBJ shoot 80 FTs/game. It was the same way with Shaq, and I've heard that young Kareem was no different. The rules have to be bent in order to keep the game watchable. Refereeing someone so physically dominant is not a task I'd like to be given. With that being said, I still think soccer referees have a tougher job because anything less than perfection leads to blame and criticism.
"Not anywhere close" was probably too strong, but so too was your "light years behind in complexity" remark.
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Basketball referees make the lowest percentage of correct calls of any major sport. Never made the point about impact of bad calls compared to soccer.
And I for sure agree that you kind of have to back off reffing everything to the letter of the law as to keep the game's pace up. It's like in the NFL where there's pretty much holding or illegal contact, by the book, on 75% of plays. The idea is to call the obvious stuff that can't even slightly be considered incidental, and even that is absurdly difficult because not only is basketball a very fast game, it is a very fast game played by ENORMOUS people who are all in a super tiny space obscuring each other from clear lines of view. The NBA will never have consistent refereeing and pitching a fit over one bad call and bad calls in general is silly, especially the claims of rigging the sport.
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On June 17 2012 07:50 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:56 ecstatica wrote:On June 16 2012 15:17 city42 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Basketball is easily the hardest to ref mainstream sport.
It doesn't come anywhere close to soccer. Much bigger field of play, more players, no video review or technology of any kind, and the players sell every foul and contest every decision that goes against them. With that being said, modern basketball is also stupidly hard to ref due to the speed of the game. Anywhere close?.. Come on. I've played plenty of soccer and watched it for years. You can make a claim that the cost of refs mistake is generally higher in soccer, since one goal can decide the outcome, but reffing itself is light years behind basketball in complexity. It is usually not that hard to see contact on a tackle, whether it hit the ball or the ankle first, also a lot of contact doesn't get called period, because it is allowed. Soccer has nothing like drives to the basket where you can't touch the person driving or get a call against you if your feet are misplaced or sometimes if your defensive motions look 'bad'. In bball everything is just quicker and the attention needs to be there nonstop. In soccer refs can actually err on the side of not calling and not get any flak for that, most outrage comes from them making a call where it wasn't deserved, i.e. penalties and red (2nd yellow) cards, which is game-changing. I never said that it's harder to make an individual call/decision in soccer than it is in basketball. In fact, I specifically mentioned that the speed of modern basketball is an issue for referees. Please read the post I was replying to. I am saying that on the whole, referees in soccer have a harder job, and the reasons are mainly the ones you've already outlined. A single bad decision in a basketball game can never be blamed for a team's loss. Truly egregious things like 1993 WCF game 7, 2002 WCF game 6, or the 2006 finals, featuring prolonged stretches of unfair refereeing, are what stick out historically. The only single call that still reverberates through the league is the Pippen-Davis incident from game 5 of the 1994 Bulls-Knicks series. As for soccer, a single bad decision can almost directly account for a win or loss. Remember Sunderland vs. Man City last season? How about Man City vs. Tottenham? QPR vs. Chelsea? Tottenham vs. Bolton? Do you think Howard Webb will ever be allowed to forget not sending off de Jong in the WC finals (even though he did a great job refereeing an absurdly difficult game overall)? A soccer referee can get all but one decision right, and still take the full blame. In the NBA, Joey Crawford and Dick Bavetta have been making fans miserable for decades, and yet I doubt anybody can remember one specific bad call from either of them prior to a few weeks ago, except maybe for the hilarious foul on Wade near the end of 2006 finals game 5. Basketball has its own unique problem in that superstars are impossible to officiate fairly. For every foul called on LeBron, there are a bunch that aren't called. However, the league is driven by fan money and no one would pay to watch LBJ shoot 80 FTs/game. It was the same way with Shaq, and I've heard that young Kareem was no different. The rules have to be bent in order to keep the game watchable. Refereeing someone so physically dominant is not a task I'd like to be given. With that being said, I still think soccer referees have a tougher job because anything less than perfection leads to blame and criticism. "Not anywhere close" was probably too strong, but so too was your "light years behind in complexity" remark.
Your taking the wrong line with this, no ones talking about how huge the impact of decisions can be, the impact of the decision in itself just means theres pressure added to the job which while important has nothing to do with how hard the job is from a technical stand point. If it wasnt, Basketball referees would have an easier time making the right calls. But its not.
Just because a bad decision affects the game doesnt mean making the decision in itself was neccessarily hard. Because quite often the bad ones are really quite retarded. And they are infrequent enough.
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On June 17 2012 07:59 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:50 city42 wrote:On June 17 2012 01:56 ecstatica wrote:On June 16 2012 15:17 city42 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Basketball is easily the hardest to ref mainstream sport.
It doesn't come anywhere close to soccer. Much bigger field of play, more players, no video review or technology of any kind, and the players sell every foul and contest every decision that goes against them. With that being said, modern basketball is also stupidly hard to ref due to the speed of the game. Anywhere close?.. Come on. I've played plenty of soccer and watched it for years. You can make a claim that the cost of refs mistake is generally higher in soccer, since one goal can decide the outcome, but reffing itself is light years behind basketball in complexity. It is usually not that hard to see contact on a tackle, whether it hit the ball or the ankle first, also a lot of contact doesn't get called period, because it is allowed. Soccer has nothing like drives to the basket where you can't touch the person driving or get a call against you if your feet are misplaced or sometimes if your defensive motions look 'bad'. In bball everything is just quicker and the attention needs to be there nonstop. In soccer refs can actually err on the side of not calling and not get any flak for that, most outrage comes from them making a call where it wasn't deserved, i.e. penalties and red (2nd yellow) cards, which is game-changing. I never said that it's harder to make an individual call/decision in soccer than it is in basketball. In fact, I specifically mentioned that the speed of modern basketball is an issue for referees. Please read the post I was replying to. I am saying that on the whole, referees in soccer have a harder job, and the reasons are mainly the ones you've already outlined. A single bad decision in a basketball game can never be blamed for a team's loss. Truly egregious things like 1993 WCF game 7, 2002 WCF game 6, or the 2006 finals, featuring prolonged stretches of unfair refereeing, are what stick out historically. The only single call that still reverberates through the league is the Pippen-Davis incident from game 5 of the 1994 Bulls-Knicks series. As for soccer, a single bad decision can almost directly account for a win or loss. Remember Sunderland vs. Man City last season? How about Man City vs. Tottenham? QPR vs. Chelsea? Tottenham vs. Bolton? Do you think Howard Webb will ever be allowed to forget not sending off de Jong in the WC finals (even though he did a great job refereeing an absurdly difficult game overall)? A soccer referee can get all but one decision right, and still take the full blame. In the NBA, Joey Crawford and Dick Bavetta have been making fans miserable for decades, and yet I doubt anybody can remember one specific bad call from either of them prior to a few weeks ago, except maybe for the hilarious foul on Wade near the end of 2006 finals game 5. Basketball has its own unique problem in that superstars are impossible to officiate fairly. For every foul called on LeBron, there are a bunch that aren't called. However, the league is driven by fan money and no one would pay to watch LBJ shoot 80 FTs/game. It was the same way with Shaq, and I've heard that young Kareem was no different. The rules have to be bent in order to keep the game watchable. Refereeing someone so physically dominant is not a task I'd like to be given. With that being said, I still think soccer referees have a tougher job because anything less than perfection leads to blame and criticism. "Not anywhere close" was probably too strong, but so too was your "light years behind in complexity" remark. Your taking the wrong line with this, no ones talking about how huge the impact of decisions can be, the impact of the decision in itself just means theres pressure added to the job which while important has nothing to do with how hard the job is from a technical stand point. If it wasnt, Basketball referees would have an easier time making the right calls. But its not. Just because a bad decision affects the game doesnt mean making the decision in itself was neccessarily hard. Because quite often the bad ones are really quite retarded. And they are infrequent enough.
I think the weight of the decisions must be factored into the overall difficulty. Again, this was the post I was replying to:
On June 16 2012 14:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Basketball is easily the hardest to ref mainstream sport.
It says nothing about "technical standpoint" or "individual calls." If that's how he wanted it to be interpreted, then such ambiguous wording doesn't help matters. In my opinion, "difficulty" in refereeing is a balance between difficulty in making a decision (e.g. a foul call) and the impact of that decision on a game. There's no question that from a technical standpoint, basketball is the hardest sport to referee. The speed and athleticism in the post-Jordan era is off the charts and refs have to keep up. However, basketball refs also have by far the biggest margin for error, given how small the impact of each individual call is over a 48 minute game. I don't think it's fair to leave that out of the equation when discussing how difficult their job is.
I hope that clarifies things, because I'm not interested in turning this into a huge argument.
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Nah it's cool. I was purely talking about which refs fuck up calls the highest percentage of the time. I guess you can say Football is harder because you have to really deliberate your calls due to their importance.
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Think we all can agree that the biggest referee mistakes happen in boxing!
Pacman can attest to this.
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You mean the scorers? Because the refs in boxing usually do pretty well.
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On June 17 2012 02:14 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:01 BlueRoyaL wrote:On June 17 2012 01:17 Chunhyang wrote:On June 16 2012 16:35 Ace wrote:On June 16 2012 10:08 Leyra wrote:
My silly solution for the NBA (A little silly, but a little smart).
Step 1. No more preferential treatment for stars (If you don't think stars get the benefit, you're dumb)
Step 2. No more DQ at 6 fouls.
Step 3. Every foul from 6 up is a 1shot technical and retain the ball (as in if your team is on offense, and you get fouled, you shoot 1 and keep the ball)
Step 4. Maybe even add something like 8th foul is shooting 2, or something.
Essentially make a huge penalty for every foul after 6, but not remove players from the game. I hate watching games where the stars can't play because of foul trouble, but I hate even more watching Lebron James average less than 2 fouls per game, which even MJ never did. that is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. And LeBron is a better defender than MJ so stop throwing his name around like it's some crutch for defensive standards. Jordan was 1988 DPOY btw. Averaged 37.5 ppg that season too. we're talking about defense, not offense. 37.5ppg is impressive but it's completely unrelated. i agree with ace in that lebron is a better defender than jordan. chunhyang - did you watch basketball during jordan's era? or are you just pulling out some statistics? pippen was a much better defender than jordan imo. in fact, i would probably put him really up there as one of the all time great defenders It betrays my age. Yes, I watched. I know it's a different era; I didn't say otherwise. This is more a defense of Jordan than an assessment of Lebron. The point of my post is that Jordan was considered the best defender in the league at a time when the bad boys were up. To say that Jordan's defense is a "crutch" for defensive standards is insulting to him. The point of 37.5 ppg means that he did it without being a defensive specialist too. How is that not clear to y'all? I hate Leyra's insinuation that Lebron is favored and that's why he doesn't get called for fouls. He's a great defender. But these playoffs, MIA has been consciously trying to preserve him, foul and energy-wise, and that's why his fouls are low, not some goddamn Stern-piracy. EDIT: That's arguable, about Pippen being a better defender than Jordan. I'd still put Rodman above them both. EDIT2: Preserve him on defense. On offense, he's that candle that holds the wick that is burned by the flame that produced the Heat.
Jordan winning DPOY doesn't make him the best defender. I've said this a couple of times over the years but those awards are meaningless. Jordan wasn't a better defender than Pippen. He also played in a weaker era for Offense and Defense while also playing in an era with weaker perimeter players. Today's NBA places much more responsibility on wing players' defense with just about every offense being perimeter oriented.
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On June 17 2012 11:54 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:14 Chunhyang wrote:On June 17 2012 02:01 BlueRoyaL wrote:On June 17 2012 01:17 Chunhyang wrote:On June 16 2012 16:35 Ace wrote:On June 16 2012 10:08 Leyra wrote:
My silly solution for the NBA (A little silly, but a little smart).
Step 1. No more preferential treatment for stars (If you don't think stars get the benefit, you're dumb)
Step 2. No more DQ at 6 fouls.
Step 3. Every foul from 6 up is a 1shot technical and retain the ball (as in if your team is on offense, and you get fouled, you shoot 1 and keep the ball)
Step 4. Maybe even add something like 8th foul is shooting 2, or something.
Essentially make a huge penalty for every foul after 6, but not remove players from the game. I hate watching games where the stars can't play because of foul trouble, but I hate even more watching Lebron James average less than 2 fouls per game, which even MJ never did. that is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. And LeBron is a better defender than MJ so stop throwing his name around like it's some crutch for defensive standards. Jordan was 1988 DPOY btw. Averaged 37.5 ppg that season too. we're talking about defense, not offense. 37.5ppg is impressive but it's completely unrelated. i agree with ace in that lebron is a better defender than jordan. chunhyang - did you watch basketball during jordan's era? or are you just pulling out some statistics? pippen was a much better defender than jordan imo. in fact, i would probably put him really up there as one of the all time great defenders It betrays my age. Yes, I watched. I know it's a different era; I didn't say otherwise. This is more a defense of Jordan than an assessment of Lebron. The point of my post is that Jordan was considered the best defender in the league at a time when the bad boys were up. To say that Jordan's defense is a "crutch" for defensive standards is insulting to him. The point of 37.5 ppg means that he did it without being a defensive specialist too. How is that not clear to y'all? I hate Leyra's insinuation that Lebron is favored and that's why he doesn't get called for fouls. He's a great defender. But these playoffs, MIA has been consciously trying to preserve him, foul and energy-wise, and that's why his fouls are low, not some goddamn Stern-piracy. EDIT: That's arguable, about Pippen being a better defender than Jordan. I'd still put Rodman above them both. EDIT2: Preserve him on defense. On offense, he's that candle that holds the wick that is burned by the flame that produced the Heat. Jordan winning DPOY doesn't make him the best defender. I've said this a couple of times over the years but those awards are meaningless. Jordan wasn't a better defender than Pippen. He also played in a weaker era for Offense and Defense while also playing in an era with weaker perimeter players. Today's NBA places much more responsibility on wing players' defense with just about every offense being perimeter oriented.
Oh, if you're comparing in absolute terms, then yes Lebron is a better defender. All the players are now harder and faster and larger and stronger than before. That's about a 24 year gap baby. Kendrick Perkins might even be able to bang bodies with Wilt. But that's just not a fair comparison.
There are more perimeter offenses now too, true. But then again, the defense back then was man to man. If Miller decided to run through three screens, you were probably going to run with him. And ANYWAY, he only point I was trying to make is that Jordan's defense wasn't crap. I'm saying it was good. I wasn't saying he was the best; but to imply that his defense was bad enough that he should never be made a defensive standard is unwarranted.
DPOY isn't meaningless. At the very least, the defender is "up there" among the best.
Last point. Pippen's defense that year was horrible. He was a rookie. He had like no lateral movement. It got better. [spoiler] Quite a bit better. I'm not going to argue and compare opinions with you. That's tough. We should do that over drinks. But I'd like to point out [something that suppports your side actually] that a lot of times Scottie was the on the best perimeter guy, while Jordan was given roaming freedom: take risks, make steals. MIA using Lebron like Jordan atm.
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EPT
