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On April 26 2012 08:42 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 08:38 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 26 2012 03:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 01:58 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 26 2012 01:36 Saechiis wrote:On April 26 2012 00:55 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 26 2012 00:44 Sawamura wrote:On April 26 2012 00:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 25 2012 23:19 Myrddraal wrote:On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:
[quote]
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
[quote]
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
[quote]
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/ In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest. I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is. Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you. WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players? lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners. Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all. Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality  lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it. And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement: "BW pros who have switched over have not done well." That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time. No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though. It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does. So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2. If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort". Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder. If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol" Warpgates and injects can definitely take time getting used to. lol that won't be hard for a brood war pro at all as SC2 requires A LOT less multitasking than Brood War. Yeah, well I mean I didn't mean that it would be hard, but rather it would take time getting used to. I played BW until SC2 release, I know full well how much harder it was^^.
Yeah, 12 units per hotkey is no joke in the late game while trying to macro lol
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On April 26 2012 08:43 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:50 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:25 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:20 Iplaythings wrote:On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote:
to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums.. Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100% Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/ Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner. ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair. I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP. All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with. When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Quite possible. I guess we'll see. I wouldn't mind.
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On April 26 2012 08:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 08:43 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 26 2012 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:50 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:25 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:20 Iplaythings wrote:On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote:
to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums.. Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100% Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/ Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner. ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair. I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP. All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with. When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War. Quite possible. I guess we'll see. I wouldn't mind.
For a moment, pause a realize how awesome it would be to the guy at Blizzard who manages the B.net database. The same database that keep a record of all the games everyone on of the players play. Holy Grail of SC.
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On April 26 2012 00:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:19 Myrddraal wrote:On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.  well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye. Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped. But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way. On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2. Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/ In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest. I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is. Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you. WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players? lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners. Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July?
Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A.
Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
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On April 26 2012 09:33 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 00:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 25 2012 23:19 Myrddraal wrote:On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye. Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped. But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way. On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2. Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/ In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest. I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is. Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you. WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players? lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners. Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all. Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July? Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A. Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
MVP was the best, followed by a virtually tie most likely between Nada and Nestea, then July, then probably Boxer and last MMA (I know nothing of MMA) around the time of their switches.
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Bisu will be SC2 uberbonjwa! You heard it here first!
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On April 26 2012 09:33 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 00:03 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 25 2012 23:19 Myrddraal wrote:On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye. Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped. But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way. On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2. Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/ In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest. I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is. Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you. WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players? lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners. Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all. Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July? Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A. Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
Your ignorance on this topic means there's really no point in actually discussing this with you, because you obviously haven't followed BW enough to make any arguments regarding the relative skill levels of BW players. Nada/Boxer/July are past their prime and are pretty bad relative to everyone else.
MVP actually took a game off of Flash. Regardless, any of the first four can probably beat Nada, Boxer, and July consistently (actually, I don't know about MMA or MKP, but the point is still the same).
Also, both Hyun and ForGG are just bad. ForGG would 2fac every game and would sunken break every Zerg. Those are strategies that inherently don't transition well and he's still in Code S.
lol, easy transition if I've ever seen one.
You're just ignorant. I don't know why you keep arguing about who's better in BW when you clearly don't even know yourself.
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On April 26 2012 08:43 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:50 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:25 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:20 Iplaythings wrote:On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote:
to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums.. Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100% Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/ Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner. ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair. I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP. All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with. When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Dude you're crazy if you think Flash, etc etc won't play the korean ladder. Of course they will, and of course people will eventually figure out which ID is who. SC2's ladder is just way too good to pass up for a progamer. Don't get me wrong, of course they will play tons of in house practice, but I promise you we will see Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc etc floating around korea GM eventually.
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The wisest decision is to wait and see, we can't assume who is better if we didn't see them play yet.
I don't know SC2 and I am not very interested either.
However, I think that BW pros will do better than the average Code A players in a shorter time because of the simpler mechanics in SC2.
Don't forget that this transition is for the best of eSports, and even if they don't like it only the guys that actually like the game can succeed. Hope TBLS with such talent won't give up on SC2. It is a pity that the BW proscene is coming to an end, but I wish it's legacy can continue in this new game. Afterall, for me BW pros are protagonists of this new era and I am sure they will keep up. The only reason I can come up with this statement is because BW pro teams train hard. Very hard.
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On April 26 2012 09:58 6NR wrote:
Bisu will be SC2 uberbonjwa! You heard it here first!
+1 to this
terran in sc2 fits his skills just PERFECTLY
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Curious to see how some of the skill sets transition over.. i expect flash to be the most dominant player in sc2 in time.. I believe his particular skill set will be the best for sc2. Very methodical player with a strong understanding of the consequences of each decision.
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On April 26 2012 11:11 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 08:43 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 26 2012 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:50 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:25 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:20 Iplaythings wrote:On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote:
to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums.. Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100% Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/ Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner. ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair. I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP. All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with. When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War. Dude you're crazy if you think Flash, etc etc won't play the korean ladder. Of course they will, and of course people will eventually figure out which ID is who. SC2's ladder is just way too good to pass up for a progamer. Don't get me wrong, of course they will play tons of in house practice, but I promise you we will see Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc etc floating around korea GM eventually.
Hehe, even all the progamers like Flash and Jaedong played ladder (iCCuP) in BW.
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On April 26 2012 12:33 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 11:11 Neurosis wrote:On April 26 2012 08:43 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 26 2012 05:53 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:50 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2012 05:25 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 26 2012 05:20 Iplaythings wrote:On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote:
to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums.. Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100% Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/ Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner. ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair. I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP. All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with. When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War. Dude you're crazy if you think Flash, etc etc won't play the korean ladder. Of course they will, and of course people will eventually figure out which ID is who. SC2's ladder is just way too good to pass up for a progamer. Don't get me wrong, of course they will play tons of in house practice, but I promise you we will see Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc etc floating around korea GM eventually. Hehe, even all the progamers like Flash and Jaedong played ladder (iCCuP) in BW.
which brings to mind.. I wounder if the ICCup attack is still on.
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I don't get how some of them say they are changing races due to balance... every race was won multiple GSL's... so obviously they can win at the highest level with any race that they are comfortable playing and train hard.
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On April 26 2012 13:55 ChosenSC2 wrote:
I don't get how some of them say they are changing races due to balance... every race was won multiple GSL's... so obviously they can win at the highest level with any race that they are comfortable playing and train hard.
How often do you see a protoss in the finals, let alone the semi finals? It is always a TvZ, or TvT. I think they are right when they say T has more to offer with his multitasking, They have many different tech paths, mech or bio, where as protoss it seems are forced to utilize every unit anyway.
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Since the same discussion has cropped up here again, ill just repost my response in the other thread. On April 20 2012 23:57 ShadeR wrote:
Not buying the whole elephant in the room thing. Not because of the players but rather because of SC2. I do not believe SC2 currently or in the future has the capacity to really show of the skill disparity between god tier players and good players.
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TBH I follow Broodwar since 2009 but don't know who's better by the time they retire between ForGG and MVP
Many anti-elephant fans use ForGG as an example because he is under performing in SC2 (for his hype at least)
While on the other hand many pro-elephant fans use MVP as an example because he's a MSL quarter finalist (better than any recent success of ex-BW SC2 pros) and is already raping the scene.
Is MVP's one win over Flash in 2010 more impressive than ForGG beating Flash in a series in 2008?
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On April 26 2012 14:32 ppshchik wrote:
TBH I follow Broodwar since 2009 but don't know who's better by the time they retire between ForGG and MVP
Many anti-elephant fans use ForGG as an example because he is under performing in SC2 (for his hype at least)
While on the other hand many pro-elephant fans use MVP as an example because he's a MSL quarter finalist (better than any recent success of ex-BW SC2 pros) and is already raping the scene.
Is MVP's one win over Flash in 2010 more impressive than ForGG beating Flash in a series in 2008?
It's more an issue of relative skill at time of switching. MVP easily.
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On April 26 2012 14:31 ShadeR wrote:Since the same discussion has cropped up here again, ill just repost my response in the other thread. Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 23:57 ShadeR wrote:
Not buying the whole elephant in the room thing. Not because of the players but rather because of SC2. I do not believe SC2 currently or in the future has the capacity to really show of the skill disparity between god tier players and good players.
I would ask for a qualification on what factors you consider to contribute to player "skill". I agree that the certain aspects in competitive BW used to quanitfy skill likely will not carry over 1:1. But take SC2 as a stand alone game and I would think if the competition required it, pro players will find a way to differentiate themselves. People say SC2 moves too fast (or something like that) so maybe a mark of skill would be how fast and accurate your decision making skills are. Like if someone looks back on your game, they can reason out why you chose to do "x" over all the other possibilities after mapping out the next 5 likely "moves". Im just spitballing, but I happen to think if you put $1000 on the table and tell a true god tier player to go win, they will find a way to differentiate themselves in order to do so. Players are only as good as they need to be in order to win.
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day9 explained it better than me in baseballs vs frizbees. problem is i cant view sc2 as a stand alone title. its all relative. cue sex analogy. once you go black you never go back.
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EPT
