I'd like to just summarize the BW relevent info in this thread so you guys don't have to read anything in the sc2 forums if you don't want to. haha.
okay
1. the coach of one of the larger SC2 teams mentions in the interview a rumor about the KeSPA teams starting sc2 in april.
2. the same coach has recieved offers from KeSPA teams, but will not state which offers.
3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well, in addition to being consulted for new talent for SC2 that KeSPA teams can pick up.
4. Zergbong's admission to KeSPA teams scouting talent from SC2 teams means that likely very few if any pros will switch to SC2 come april. it's probable only a few practice partners, B teamers, and fading stars will switch, as KeSPA seems to be scouting current SC2 talent a lot. this means that we don't have much to fear from the addition of sc2.
5. Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
7. I'd like to thank the translator jellyjello for translating the interview, without that some of these rumors and actions would go unknown to us.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
Nestea> They would definitely consider it. What I heard was that they want players that are very bottom tiered, the ones who can't even break Code A. They want to buy them cheap and invest in them. Actually, I was approached for my opinions on which players are willing to come and for how much. They even asked me to introduce them and one player actually went.
It seems fairly likely to me that the team here is KT, since he was their zerg coach before he switched to SC2.
If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
On January 24 2012 07:40 1Eris1 wrote: Well, if worst comes to worst I'm much rather watch Bisu playing SC2 than Zergbong
This is basically what my stance has changed to on the issue. I initially hoped that the s-class players would never switch and continue to play bw forever, but the recent disbanding of lots of teams and mbc has kind of pointed me to the inevitable reality that eventually people will have to switch or play a different game like war3 or something.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
This is not true, lol. There was a rumour the b-leaguers on some team were playing star2 on and off, but there is still so much going on in bw to practice for that I guarantee no player who's a-league or above has touched sc2 on official practice time. Maybe on their own time they created an account for the lolz or something, but it's not like skt or team8 is having sanctioned sc2 practice time.
Edit to include this.... You said it before me. D=
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
They all recently got new equipment. Lots of people with inside knowledge (HuK, FXOboss come into my mind at this moment I think) have hinted at this.
I am not saying that every player will soon switch over but at this point pretty much every team has some players playing SC2 full time. (obviously only the ones who want/B teamers etc)
My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players.
"It makes it easy for the reader to engage. I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. Same with League of Legends. I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple."
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Korean Esports in general has sort of got in a bad spot in the last few years (dropping ratings/teams disbanding/MBC closing etc it's not all caused just by the emergence of SC2). I think they believe that SC2 can sort bring fresh wind to the scene/renew interest. And even if they are mostly korean based companies, foreign money/interest will not hurt.
On January 24 2012 07:48 ShadeR wrote: Cool i suppose. + Show Spoiler +
Flash is unimpressed
On January 24 2012 07:33 Woony wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
They all recently got new equipment. Lots of people with inside knowledge (HuK, FXOboss come into my mind at this moment I think) have hinted at this.
I am not saying that every player will soon switch over but at this point pretty much every team has some players playing SC2 full time. (obviously only the ones who want/B teamers etc)
i know there was a thread back in the fall about a bunch of pro BW players that had SC2 accounts. in korea you have to have your SSN and real name tied to your SC2 account I believe so all these accounts were verified. so if you really want good evidence that bw pros are actually just practicing sc2 all the time, why don't we look at these accounts again and see if they've been active at all for the last 3 months? until then this is all just weird rumors based off of old stories.
On January 24 2012 08:01 rift wrote: The domestic audience has little interest in the game. I could see them going back to BW after a one season trial.
Have you got recent BC bang numbers? I think SC2 wasn't too far behind SCBW last time I checked. Either way, both are loosing to MMO/mobas (young kids are playing those over SC2/BW). A split scene is the last thing anyone (even Kespa) wants. And I know that BC bang numbers are not equal to viewership but I think that a) they're the most accurate numbers you can get and b) in the long run the number of players will also influence the viewership.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
SC2 is a good game, and I've played quite a bit of it, but I think its a good game in the same way that Warcraft III is a good game; its fun to play and watch, but its not so amazing that you can sustain something like proleague with it. I just can't picture myself waking up at 4 in the morning to watch SC2 like I do for BW.
Just feels like everyone is trying to force it to replace BW....
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Korean Esports in general has sort of got in a bad spot in the last few years (dropping ratings/teams disbanding/MBC closing etc it's not all caused just by the emergence of SC2). I think they believe that SC2 can sort bring fresh wind to the scene/renew interest. And even if they are mostly korean based companies, foreign money/interest will not hurt.
I would think that the companies, who basically make up KeSPA, are in it for advertising their brand, which would be reaching the Korean audience. The supposedly foreigner money would come in terms of consumerism, not sponsorship, assuming that the current teams are the ones making the switch, and that is not possible since most of these companies do not provide services abroad.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
I'm pretty sure KeSPA teams are BW proteams. What other teams does KeSPA have? Rather than just stating something, you should maybe explain it too because currently what you are saying doesn't make sense.
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Korean Esports in general has sort of got in a bad spot in the last few years (dropping ratings/teams disbanding/MBC closing etc it's not all caused just by the emergence of SC2). I think they believe that SC2 can sort bring fresh wind to the scene/renew interest. And even if they are mostly korean based companies, foreign money/interest will not hurt.
I would think that the companies, who basically make up KeSPA, are in it for advertising their brand, which would be reaching the Korean audience. The supposedly foreigner money would come in terms of consumerism, not sponsorship, assuming that the current teams are the ones making the switch, and that is not possible since most of these companies do not provide services abroad.
Not necessarily for the companies, but foreign money from teams or organizations can strengthen the scene. It can provide more korean players with income/potential prize money.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
I'm pretty sure KeSPA teams are BW proteams. What other teams does KeSPA have? Rather than just stating something, you should maybe explain it too because currently what you are saying doesn't make sense.
KeSPA regulates all esports in korea. This includes a large number of games and teams. While all BW teams are regulated by KeSPA, not all KeSPA teams play BW. Currently SC2 is not managed by KeSPA in the same way Kart-Rider or Counter-Strike are.
So basically when you hear that KeSPA is going to pick-up SC2 it doesn't mean that KT Rolster is going to be playing SC2 in the same way that it doesn't mean some random Fifa 2012 Kespa team is going to start playing SC2.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
He could also refer to the SC2 league that Kespa might run on their own. And you could've just said 'BW teams will never be interested in SC2 players to play BW" and we could've avoided all that confusion
On January 24 2012 08:14 Megaliskuu wrote: LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
On January 24 2012 07:57 HaFnium wrote: At least Midas wont switch.
"It makes it easy for the reader to engage. I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. Same with League of Legends. I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple."
This is what i have trouble warping my head around. Its takes a special person to become really good at BW, you don't look at the UI and complain that it sucks but you see that it's a real challenge to master the game and dedicate your life to becoming really good at. And then SC2 comes along where almost everything that made BW hard and challenging to play is either missing or has been streamlined. So what I'm wondering is whether the BW pros could just start playing SC2, or like midas would they they turned off by the relatively easiness of the game and decied to do something else, or do they play BW because they like being progamers and they wouldn't have a problem playing SC2 as long it means they could still be progamers?
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
He could also refer to the SC2 league that Kespa might run on their own. And you could've just said 'BW teams will never be interested in SC2 players to play BW" and we could've avoided all that confusion
...As opposed to BW teams would never be interested in SC II player...to play SC II?
No, a soccer team usually would not pick up a tennis player for the official roster to play tennis.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
I'm pretty sure KeSPA teams are BW proteams. What other teams does KeSPA have? Rather than just stating something, you should maybe explain it too because currently what you are saying doesn't make sense.
there are some special forces teams that don't have bw teams (archer, aika). It wouldn't cost much to slap together non-code A koreans in a little teamhouse in preparation for a kespa league (whether true or not, I imagine some korean youths, like 17-19 year olds, could be drawn into the appeal of joining a kespa team). Then of course there is the obvious bw kespa teams that could invest into cheap talent.
It's still taking with a grain of salt. Look at how KT players just retired after not getting playtime (anyppi in particular said he could try out sc2). If the KT house thought kespa was going to start sc2 as soon as april, maybe someone like anyppi would have just stayed with KT.
EDIT: also, can someone (possibly korean) accurately describe OGN's broadcasting schedule? If a LoL broadcast is starting up, I could easily see regular PL continuing and a small sc2 broadcast starting with a kespa sanctioned league (heck, they already broadcasted wcg, but that was in PL layover iirc).
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Korean Esports in general has sort of got in a bad spot in the last few years (dropping ratings/teams disbanding/MBC closing etc it's not all caused just by the emergence of SC2). I think they believe that SC2 can sort bring fresh wind to the scene/renew interest. And even if they are mostly korean based companies, foreign money/interest will not hurt.
I would think that the companies, who basically make up KeSPA, are in it for advertising their brand, which would be reaching the Korean audience. The supposedly foreigner money would come in terms of consumerism, not sponsorship, assuming that the current teams are the ones making the switch, and that is not possible since most of these companies do not provide services abroad.
Not necessarily for the companies, but foreign money from teams or organizations can strengthen the scene. It can provide more korean players with income/potential prize money.
Hence my confusion. Most of the BW players are salary based paid by their primary sponsors, i.e. it's not a team name with multiple sponsors each chipping in, it's one giant sponsor that pretty much owns the team and smaller ones on the side. For example, SK Telecom T1 is primarily sponsored by the telecom company, and I'm sure the executives there have the main say in what they wish to do with their team. In comparison, prize winning is rather negligible. So they would be downsizing if they were to make a switch.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players.
Wait, what? When was this announced????
It wasn't, which is why I used the word "claim."
OK, but has there been any sort of evidence, or pseudo-announcement, or anything to support this at all? I could never ever see Kespa actually sanctioning this, which is why I'm so perplexed. Where did the claim come from, is what I'm asking?
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
I'm pretty sure KeSPA teams are BW proteams. What other teams does KeSPA have? Rather than just stating something, you should maybe explain it too because currently what you are saying doesn't make sense.
KeSPA regulates all esports in korea. This includes a large number of games and teams. While all BW teams are regulated by KeSPA, not all KeSPA teams play BW. Currently SC2 is not managed by KeSPA in the same way Kart-Rider or Counter-Strike are.
So basically when you hear that KeSPA is going to pick-up SC2 it doesn't mean that KT Rolster is going to be playing SC2 in the same way that it doesn't mean some random Fifa 2012 Kespa team is going to start playing SC2.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
I'm pretty sure KeSPA teams are BW proteams. What other teams does KeSPA have? Rather than just stating something, you should maybe explain it too because currently what you are saying doesn't make sense.
there are some special forces teams that don't have bw teams (archer, aika). It wouldn't cost much to slap together non-code A koreans in a little teamhouse in preparation for a kespa league (whether true or not, I imagine some korean youths, like 17-19 year olds, could be drawn into the appeal of joining a kespa team).
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
He could also refer to the SC2 league that Kespa might run on their own. And you could've just said 'BW teams will never be interested in SC2 players to play BW" and we could've avoided all that confusion
...As opposed to BW teams would never be interested in SC II player...to play SC II?
Tha's what your post sounded like. But then again, I think you are misreading the original post. I think he is referring to the fact that he wants Bong to stay in the current SC2 scene and not play SC2 under the supposed Kespa league.
On January 24 2012 08:14 Megaliskuu wrote: LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
Just wondering why do you think sc2 sucks?
Well personally I think it's a weak game because all of the units are bland, have little overall diversity, and are thus unable to be exploited in unique ways. That and their is far too much coddling of mistakes, and it is so easy to execute basic build orders that have a tremendous win %. (If Blizzard could fix those two big areas, a few other kinks here and there, it would be a much better game)
On January 24 2012 07:57 HaFnium wrote: At least Midas wont switch.
"It makes it easy for the reader to engage. I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. Same with League of Legends. I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple."
This is what i have trouble warping my head around. Its takes a special person to become really good at BW, you don't look at the UI and complain that it sucks but you see that it's a real challenge to master the game and dedicate your life to becoming really good at. And then SC2 comes along where almost everything that made BW hard and challenging to play is either missing or has been streamlined. So what I'm wondering is whether the BW pros could just start playing SC2, or like midas would they they turned off by the relatively easiness of the game and decied to do something else, or do they play BW because they like being progamers and they wouldn't have a problem playing SC2 as long it means they could still be progamers?
It's something more fundamental. It can only really be summed up as a certain magic that Brood War just exudes.
The differences are salient enough to make it incomparable, regardless of the titular-ancestry status. It's just expecting a basketball player to suddenly play golf...
Of course, to some, it's all about the monetary, and with the right incentives they'd switch without thought. But I don't think the most dedicated progamers could stand playing SC II, even if they think it's a good game, simply because it's really just not the same And that's something even the viewers and fans can understand - and we don't want it to stop.
Aside from Samsung and some of CJ's & STX products, other kespa company members doesn't REALLY NEED to cater the foreigners. I highly doubt they would be sponsoring ANY GAME to reach out for the WESTERN foreigners. Westerners need to realize that it's a waste to advertise and reach them since SKT, KT, & Woongjin are mainly targets korean-based consumers.
As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
Regarding SC2 players being taken by Kespa if ever kespa creates an SC2 scene. JUST PLAIN LOL.
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Korean Esports in general has sort of got in a bad spot in the last few years (dropping ratings/teams disbanding/MBC closing etc it's not all caused just by the emergence of SC2). I think they believe that SC2 can sort bring fresh wind to the scene/renew interest. And even if they are mostly korean based companies, foreign money/interest will not hurt.
I would think that the companies, who basically make up KeSPA, are in it for advertising their brand, which would be reaching the Korean audience. The supposedly foreigner money would come in terms of consumerism, not sponsorship, assuming that the current teams are the ones making the switch, and that is not possible since most of these companies do not provide services abroad.
Not necessarily for the companies, but foreign money from teams or organizations can strengthen the scene. It can provide more korean players with income/potential prize money.
Hence my confusion. Most of the BW players are salary based paid by their primary sponsors, i.e. it's not a team name with multiple sponsors each chipping in, it's one giant sponsor that pretty much owns the team and smaller ones on the side. For example, SK Telecom T1 is primarily sponsored by the telecom company, and I'm sure the executives there have the main say in what they wish to do with their team. In comparison, prize winning is rather negligible. So they would be downsizing if they were to make a switch.
I know. But imagine a scenario where foreign teams could offer additional opportunities for stuck B-teamers or retired pro gamers.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players.
Wait, what? When was this announced????
It wasn't, which is why I used the word "claim."
OK, but has there been any sort of evidence, or pseudo-announcement, or anything to support this at all? I could never ever see Kespa actually sanctioning this, which is why I'm so perplexed. Where did the claim come from, is what I'm asking?
The Proleague schedule divides the competition into two halves, each with its own finals. When this news came out before the current season, people were already speculating that the first half would be BW and the second SC2, since it makes no sense otherwise to jeopardize an event as consistently successful as the Proleague Grand Finals with a weird new schedule. The interview that inspired this thread includes a claim by one of the interviewees that BW teams will begin SC2 in April, which neatly coincides with the time the second half of Proleague might be expected to begin.
TIG> It's no secret that BW pro teams are getting ready to play SC2. Actually there has be numerous proposals about it. It's almost a fact now that BW pro teams are getting ready to step into the SC2 world. I'm not saying this is going to be a problem. However, we have to think about the current SC2 pro teams first.
Coach Won> I can't talk about the details but it's true that I've received a proposal relating to that.
Nestea> I've also received it. They asked me to introduce some players for them. Some players come from BW background, so they exchange some of the know-hows with them already. It's the same case for me, but I don't really do it seriously. I can't just hand out my strategies that I worked so hard for to these new BW pros. I don't even do that for other current SC2 pros.
That's the part threadstarter is referencing. Just to clear things up a bit more.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
He could also refer to the SC2 league that Kespa might run on their own. And you could've just said 'BW teams will never be interested in SC2 players to play BW" and we could've avoided all that confusion
...As opposed to BW teams would never be interested in SC II player...to play SC II?
Tha's what your post sounded like. But then again, I think you are misreading the original post. I think he is referring to the fact that he wants Bong to stay in the current SC2 scene and not play SC2 under the supposed Kespa league.
"If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. "
No. Regardless, that's a far-fetched spin made too late.
On January 24 2012 07:57 HaFnium wrote: At least Midas wont switch.
"It makes it easy for the reader to engage. I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. Same with League of Legends. I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple."
This is what i have trouble warping my head around. Its takes a special person to become really good at BW, you don't look at the UI and complain that it sucks but you see that it's a real challenge to master the game and dedicate your life to becoming really good at. And then SC2 comes along where almost everything that made BW hard and challenging to play is either missing or has been streamlined. So what I'm wondering is whether the BW pros could just start playing SC2, or like midas would they they turned off by the relatively easiness of the game and decied to do something else, or do they play BW because they like being progamers and they wouldn't have a problem playing SC2 as long it means they could still be progamers?
It's something more fundamental. It can only really be summed up as a certain magic that Brood War just exudes.
The differences are salient enough to make it incomparable, regardless of the titular-ancestry status. It's just expecting a basketball player to suddenly play golf...
Of course, to some, it's all about the monetary, and with the right incentives they'd switch without thought. But I don't think the most dedicated progamers could stand playing SC II, even if they think it's a good game, simply because it's really just not the same And that's something even the viewers and fans can understand - and we don't want it to stop.
Yup, this. I personally think its weird that someone would expect a BW fan to automatically like SC2 just because its made by the same company/has the same name. I would compare it to Warcraft III; definitely a good game that is fun to play, but lacking the magic of Broodwar. BW is truly a miraculous game and I don't think any developer could hope to recreate it intentionally.
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Korean Esports in general has sort of got in a bad spot in the last few years (dropping ratings/teams disbanding/MBC closing etc it's not all caused just by the emergence of SC2). I think they believe that SC2 can sort bring fresh wind to the scene/renew interest. And even if they are mostly korean based companies, foreign money/interest will not hurt.
I would think that the companies, who basically make up KeSPA, are in it for advertising their brand, which would be reaching the Korean audience. The supposedly foreigner money would come in terms of consumerism, not sponsorship, assuming that the current teams are the ones making the switch, and that is not possible since most of these companies do not provide services abroad.
Not necessarily for the companies, but foreign money from teams or organizations can strengthen the scene. It can provide more korean players with income/potential prize money.
Hence my confusion. Most of the BW players are salary based paid by their primary sponsors, i.e. it's not a team name with multiple sponsors each chipping in, it's one giant sponsor that pretty much owns the team and smaller ones on the side. For example, SK Telecom T1 is primarily sponsored by the telecom company, and I'm sure the executives there have the main say in what they wish to do with their team. In comparison, prize winning is rather negligible. So they would be downsizing if they were to make a switch.
I know. But imagine a scenario where foreign teams could offer additional opportunities for stuck B-teamers or retired pro gamers.
Oh, so more like double dipping. Heh, that does make much more sense. Seems like I'm just confusing myself by reading posts saying there will be a substantial/complete switch or something. Thanks for clearing that up.
On January 24 2012 08:07 Dental Floss wrote: SC2 is a good game, and I've played quite a bit of it, but I think its a good game in the same way that Warcraft III is a good game; its fun to play and watch, but its not so amazing that you can sustain something like proleague with it. I just can't picture myself waking up at 4 in the morning to watch SC2 like I do for BW.
Just feels like everyone is trying to force it to replace BW....
I definitely feel the same way, people just need to realize that Brood War and Starcraft 2 are two completely different games and shouldn't feel like one should take away the other.
On January 24 2012 08:14 Megaliskuu wrote: LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
On January 24 2012 08:14 Megaliskuu wrote: LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
On January 24 2012 08:14 Megaliskuu wrote: LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
On January 24 2012 08:34 jidolboy wrote: It seems funny that kespa decided to offer low tier sc2 players into joining their team. Zergbong included one of them lol
On January 24 2012 08:34 jidolboy wrote: It seems funny that kespa decided to offer low tier sc2 players into joining their team. Zergbong included one of them lol
They obviously want them to build their SC2 devision (why else?). And Nestea is arguably the second most sucessful SC2 player.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
I don't think a switch would help viewership at all. If anything it will be similar to when a long running popular TV show is killed to make room for a spin off with more popular appeal. Fans of the original show desert because of changes, few new fans appear and the whole thing falls apart. SC2 Kespa leagues would not last more than two years without drastically changing there business model. If LoL fails to take off it could even mean the end of OGN.
I also think that FXOBoss article from a while ago was full of shit. He tried to cover his ass by claiming, coveniently at the time of the Rekrul/Coach Lee debacle, that players who were going to switch were joining TSL but that was now unlikely.
I wrote, deleted, rewrote, redeleted and wrote again this post again trying to keep it as little SC2 bashing as possible.
For me, SC2 is horrible. It is a really good game if you compare to CnC and it is fun to play casually, but for someone who has been playing BW, watching competitive SC2 is awful, disgusting and I found myself facepalming at each new feature they added/removed from the game. It is enraging.
But it is ok. I just stopped playing it, stopped following it and forgot about it, except the fact that I flushed US$60 down the toilet. I still have BW to play and to watch and everything is kind of okay, even if they ADD SC2 to Proleague its okay, I might even check a game someday to see if I change my mind.
Now, if KeSPA slowly replace BW with SC2 then its just over. In my eyes, the era of the competitive eSports sinks with BW.
We then will be hostages of Browder's 'creative mind'.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
I'm willing to guess that higher-classed computers would also make the progamers' lives easier too since they could play games, make movies, or whatever much easier. (I just made up the part about movie-making).
With regards to XellOs, I think that he's proving the fact that there's a place for you after progaming's over to some of the younger pros. Dunno if that'll change things, but it'll certainly improve the life outlook on some of the more mature gamers.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:57 IntoTheheart wrote:
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
I'm willing to guess that higher-classed computers would also make the progamers' lives easier too since they could play games, make movies, or whatever much easier. (I just made up the part about movie-making).
With regards to XellOs, I think that he's proving the fact that there's a place for you after progaming's over to some of the younger pros. Dunno if that'll change things, but it'll certainly improve the life outlook on some of the more mature gamers.
Yes, but the equipment is given out to the gamers for gaming purposes only. Sure they play some other games and use internet, but some players have their own personal laptop that they use. Plus it's not like they know how to make movies (since most of them only know how to play computer games, not the computer itself [i.e. Nal_rA had problems wiring the computer with monitor, keyboard, mouse etc.] I know you made it up, but just pointing out that some players do not know how to use other applications on computer.)
XellOs is just lucky. WeMade FOX players were guaranteed a position in the company WeMade after they retired from what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong here).
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
Yes I do think that. LCDs having input delay or lag is an issue from like 1990 when LCD technology was relatively new. These issues no longer exist and there is basically no reason to keep using CRTs. If a house was going to get equipment there is literally no reason to not get 19 or 22" widescreen LCDs because these days they'd actually be less expensive than getting a new CRT.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:57 IntoTheheart wrote:
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
I'm willing to guess that higher-classed computers would also make the progamers' lives easier too since they could play games, make movies, or whatever much easier. (I just made up the part about movie-making).
With regards to XellOs, I think that he's proving the fact that there's a place for you after progaming's over to some of the younger pros. Dunno if that'll change things, but it'll certainly improve the life outlook on some of the more mature gamers.
Yes, but the equipment is given out to the gamers for gaming purposes only. Sure they play some other games and use internet, but some players have their own personal laptop that they use. Plus it's not like they know how to make movies (since most of them only know how to play computer games, not the computer itself [i.e. Nal_rA had problems wiring the computer with monitor, keyboard, mouse etc.] I know you made it up, but just pointing out that some players do not know how to use other applications on computer.)
XellOs is just lucky. WeMade FOX players were guaranteed a position in the company WeMade after they retired from what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong here).
Well, that certainly happened.
Point taken about the equipment but I'm still willing to blindly convince myself that they serve another purpose. That or they just bulk-bought new machines for the... sake of buying new machines? (can't read minds).
With regards to WMF, I believe that it was in the, "The Hax Life," documentary where the manager let us know that they hoped that the retiring gamers would work for them, so I believe that you're correct in that.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:57 IntoTheheart wrote:
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
Yes I do think that. LCDs having input delay or lag is an issue from like 1990 when LCD technology was relatively new. These issues no longer exist and there is basically no reason to keep using CRTs. If a house was going to get equipment there is literally no reason to not get 19 or 22" widescreen LCDs because these days they'd actually be less expensive than getting a new CRT.
They don't need a new CRT because they had working CRTs, and they didn't need a new computer because they had computers that ran BW without lag.
Honestly, I don't know if you missed the 'KeSPA discussing about SC2 and proleague' back in November or something, but it was a possible option to KeSPA as they were discussing the proleague format for the upcoming year, and that's when all the BW/SC2 news started coming out, including Hydra's twitter profile https://twitter.com/#!/dongwon8247
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:57 IntoTheheart wrote:
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
I'm willing to guess that higher-classed computers would also make the progamers' lives easier too since they could play games, make movies, or whatever much easier. (I just made up the part about movie-making).
With regards to XellOs, I think that he's proving the fact that there's a place for you after progaming's over to some of the younger pros. Dunno if that'll change things, but it'll certainly improve the life outlook on some of the more mature gamers.
Yes, but the equipment is given out to the gamers for gaming purposes only. Sure they play some other games and use internet, but some players have their own personal laptop that they use. Plus it's not like they know how to make movies (since most of them only know how to play computer games, not the computer itself [i.e. Nal_rA had problems wiring the computer with monitor, keyboard, mouse etc.] I know you made it up, but just pointing out that some players do not know how to use other applications on computer.)
XellOs is just lucky. WeMade FOX players were guaranteed a position in the company WeMade after they retired from what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong here).
Well, that certainly happened.
Point taken about the equipment but I'm still willing to blindly convince myself that they serve another purpose. That or they just bulk-bought new machines for the... sake of buying new machines? (can't read minds).
With regards to WMF, I believe that it was in the, "The Hax Life," documentary where the manager let us know that they hoped that the retiring gamers would work for them, so I believe that you're correct in that.
Given their current situation, if I were in charge I would try to save every penny possible.
But I think equipment change happened because KeSPA told them something. Probably they told the teams that they're using a new hardware and new monitors, which forced these teams to get new equipment. The real question, however, is this: CRTs and old computers worked fine, and they already have LCD monitors and newer computers for other games that they run in OGN studio, so why change them all of sudden?
I'm not saying that SC2 is coming, but at this rate don't get surprised if it gets involved with KeSPA sometime in the near future.
On January 24 2012 08:25 shaftofpleasure wrote: As for BW players practicing SC2, that would either mean, these BW players will switch because they really suck and have nothing much left to look forward to in BW Proscene. All these rumors about switching seems pretty far-fetched since people can view the personal SC2 accounts of BW progamers like what 'Ideas' said. This FXO guy needs to back up his claims or just keep quiet if he just have little idea. I would take any statement from non-Kespa affiliated person with a grain of salt since this all seems B.S. to me.
And yet BW players played some Starcraft 2 offseason before new proleague got announced, including Hydra.
If you're going to take rumors as facts, then just wait until the news springs up. Until something happens, rumors are rumors. It might be right, it might be wrong.
BW teams are notorious for playing Soccer on their free time and even organize soccer matches against each other. Do you also think that they are looking to break into that sport as well?
Of course they play SC2 on their free-time. They probably play all kinds of games for fun.
Do you think a gaming team would change all of their equipment out of sudden, when everyone clearly argues that CRT looks better, and BW doesn't need extra hardware?
The fact that proleague at the moment is using widescreen LCD monitors and upgraded computers instead of CRT?
There were rumors of KeSPA doing SC2, and those are the 'left-overs' from those rumors. Of course they don't play SC2 right now cause BW is the only thing that matters at the moment. The fact that almost every progamers tried it in certain period of time (go find that sc2 thread with pictures if you want) is undeniable however, along with the equipment change in the similar period.
On January 24 2012 08:57 IntoTheheart wrote:
On January 24 2012 08:55 Kaien wrote: cant wait till flash, jeadong and bisu switch to sc2!
Assuming they'll do it. You never know. AnyTime sure as hell didn't pick it up when he retired. XellOs isn't playing yet either. We'll see. We'll see.
XellOs has job position in CJ at the moment. Unless he wants to take a risk and try earning more money instead of his regular salary, then it ain't happening.
I'm willing to guess that higher-classed computers would also make the progamers' lives easier too since they could play games, make movies, or whatever much easier. (I just made up the part about movie-making).
With regards to XellOs, I think that he's proving the fact that there's a place for you after progaming's over to some of the younger pros. Dunno if that'll change things, but it'll certainly improve the life outlook on some of the more mature gamers.
Don't forget that OGN has just started a LoL league, it could just be equipment standardization. I read that Samsung tested out some other game for a couple of days, does that mean that they are switching, of course not. I am also sure that most of the pros have accounts from back in the SC2 beta.
Lots of people in denial, just accept it brahs, no telling when its gonna happen, but it will be soon (TM). I don't like it, but thats just the way it is.
On January 24 2012 09:01 fabiano wrote: I wrote, deleted, rewrote, redeleted and wrote again this post again trying to keep it as little SC2 bashing as possible.
For me, SC2 is horrible. It is a really good game if you compare to CnC and it is fun to play casually, but for someone who has been playing BW, watching competitive SC2 is awful, disgusting and I found myself facepalming at each new feature they added/removed from the game. It is enraging.
But it is ok. I just stopped playing it, stopped following it and forgot about it, except the fact that I flushed US$60 down the toilet. I still have BW to play and to watch and everything is kind of okay, even if they ADD SC2 to Proleague its okay, I might even check a game someday to see if I change my mind.
Now, if KeSPA slowly replace BW with SC2 then its just over. In my eyes, the era of the competitive eSports sinks with BW.
We then will be hostages of Browder's 'creative mind'.
gg
And still you couldn't help yourself, huh.
-
I hope there won't be a mass influx of BW players coming over to SC2. I like watching BW because it is a really polished game that developed during 10 years and now every player has to be so sharp to be able to compete. It amazes me seeing how much every little thing Flash does is so well thought. I also like watching SC2 because it is a new game that is still having major innovations in strategy because the game is not as mapped out as BW is.(and no, I'm not saying BW is totally mapped out).
I just hope both the games can live together, why does one have to die? And a lot of people actually prefer bw to sc2, so it makes no sense to outright kill bw.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
I may be mistaken but my original impression of the situation was that BW teams (I thought they were kespa teams, still not 100% sure the distinction) were going to be fielding sc2 teams in addition to their BW squads. I was under the impression that some of these team were already practicing s2 and were planning on picking up some low tier players to augment their sc2 squads. When I read the thing about ZergBong I though they meant they would recruit to one of the Kespa team (I thought those were too 8 current brood war teams) to be part of their sc2 squad, NOT to play broodwar, to play sc2. You comment, "B team would never be interested in SC II players" didn't make sense to me because I was and still am under the impression that the team we now consider "BW team" will also start playing sc2, thus those teams would be interested in sc2. My issue with ZergBong leaving IM to a Kespa team is that I am an incredible Miracle fanboy and would hate to see them lose their best zerg. Feel free to correct me on anything, I'm really confused.
According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
My prediction: There will be a KeSPA SC2 league and a KeSPA BW league at the same time, at least for a while. Both leagues will be composed of the current 8 BW teams. Tippy-top players like TLBS will continue to play BW. The SC2 side will be B-teamers, A-teamer who are in the "Any BW A-teamer can dominate SC2 and make mad dollahs" camps, and B-teamers on the current SC2 teams in which the BW teams see potential. Most current korean SC2 teams will die, meaning that fans of both games will have reason to be unhappy. (Flash's salary is more than SlayerS' entire budget, and SlayerS is the richest team).
The expectation is that BW A-teamers will play SC2 at a higher level and make the game more entertaining. There's been some of that with ForGG. We'll see.
I'm wondering how the upcoming OSL fits in to all this, though.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon. This only implies that the switch is probably going to be low tiered A-Teamers switching completely to SC2, leaving their own team, IF the rumor is true.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
cause it's just not a very good game.... I don't really want to watch protoss 1a their way into the starcraft 2 equivalent of code s, I want to watch jangbi storms, flash macro, and JvZ! The difficulty of playing brood war just makes watching the pros intrinsically more entertaining... As I write this I'm watching topstar stream (he advertises himself as being A- iccup), and the level of micro he possesses is infinitely better than what I see on professional sc2 streams. And he's nowhere even in the same universe as the pro korean players.
I understand that pragmatically, the switch will inevitably happen after a while (i said this back on page 1 somewhere), but a lot of people just don't want it to, including myself. Yeah, I've switched over to pretty much playing sc2 entirely, since I was admittedly horse shit bad at brood war, D level every season, but the proscene is just not very interesting compared to bw, and I can't remember the last time I actually watched a pro sc2 tournament, whereas I regularly wake up at 3 am to watch proleague.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon. This only implies that the switch is probably going to be low tiered A-Teamers switching completely to SC2, leaving their own team, IF the rumor is true.
Apparently, FXOBoss hinted that the hinted BW players were going to join TSL, so they're probably leftovers from the disbanded teams.
@FXOpeneSports FXOpen e-Sports Am a bit sad. The mentioned players in my blog from BW were going to join TSL.... 20 Jan via web
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
I understand how you feel, I'm in the same boat.
BW dies, and I might stop going on TL as often as I do altogether. I'm sorry to say this, but BW's the only reason I'm really still on TL at all.
unfortunately we are a dying breed and the minority.
If the second half of this proleague will involve SC2 only, there will be a huge outcry among most fans. That doesn't mean KESPA haven't thoughout about it though, or are even planning it. I'm not that worried about it though, because KESPA has to listen to the fans to some extent.
But it makes me angry how most ppl just seems to assume SC2 would take over after BW, especially KESPA, since they made the BW scene. SC2 is just another game. Whether it's better or worse than BW is irrelevant. Just keep the scenes seperate. I think it would make a lot more sense to have both scenes run along together until one of them dies from natural causes, and I hope that this is the stance KESPA have taken, and that they are on the verge of investing into SC2 mainly to secure their future.
Although the BW scene has fallen recently, I think it has very little to do with the fans leaving the game. I joined the scene a bit before SC2 and I haven't noticed any difference in attendance. The only problems in the BW scene have been involved with KESPA and sponsors. The fans stayed, but the men in suits got nervous because of the threat of SC2, which is understandable. I do however think that there is hope of a financial resurgence. With the fans sticking to BW, KESPA, the current and potential sponsors will see that we are still into the game, and then they will stop being so paranoid about their investments. Finding a sponsor for T8 will be crucial.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
I understand how you feel, I'm in the same boat.
If the 'full' switch happens, then it will be KeSPA teams in SC2.
Remember that KeSPA was first and is still organized by corporations that sponsor the league. Well, not the corporations themselves but a representative.... or something along that line. So if KeSPA decides to move on, then it means that corporations are willing to move-on completely.
Then again, I might be completely wrong because I don't have completely knowledge, nor is part of any Korean e-sports/KeSPA media. I might be able to ask around, but at this moment I don't want to start asking random questions based on rumors.
By the way - does anyone read KR and can tell this thread what Hydra is tweeting back and forth with sc2 pros Puma and JYP?
Friendly talk. If there were any talks of BW/SC2 among these players, then I'm sure someone at SC2 board will over-hype the tweets and make it seem like BW players are switching to SC2 soon.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
I understand how you feel, I'm in the same boat.
BW dies, and I might stop going on TL as often as I do altogether. I'm sorry to say this, but BW's the only reason I'm really still on TL at all.
unfortunately we are a dying breed and the minority.
Even still, I think that there's something to be said about the fact that we still support BW even though other RTS games have come out and tried to dethrone it. Remember WC3? I barely do. Warhammer RTS (can we even call them that..?)? Not a huge eSport (fun fun fun fun fun. Don't get me wrong, fans), is it?
Remember that those of us who really care about BW will be gone, but at least TL can focus on eSports with or without us, and I think that's important.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
I understand how you feel, I'm in the same boat.
BW dies, and I might stop going on TL as often as I do altogether. I'm sorry to say this, but BW's the only reason I'm really still on TL at all.
unfortunately we are a dying breed and the minority.
Even still, I think that there's something to be said about the fact that we still support BW even though other RTS games have come out and tried to dethrone it. Remember WC3? I barely do. Warhammer RTS (can we even call them that..?)? Not a huge eSport (fun fun fun fun fun. Don't get me wrong, fans), is it?
Remember that those of us who really care about BW will be gone, but at least TL can focus on eSports with or without us, and I think that's important.
Then again, Blizzard tried to shove eSports down everyone's throat once SC2 came out, instead of letting the community grow first.
Most games, on the other hand, had solid foundations before it began. Blizzard thought that BW was its solid foundation, and for most parts, they were right. Their other solid foundation was Korean scene, and well, they butchered that quite badly.
On January 24 2012 09:19 Ribbon wrote: According to FXOBoss (owner of the SC2 Team FXO), several A-teamers are practicing SC2 for a switch in February.
True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
I understand how you feel, I'm in the same boat.
BW dies, and I might stop going on TL as often as I do altogether. I'm sorry to say this, but BW's the only reason I'm really still on TL at all.
unfortunately we are a dying breed and the minority.
Even still, I think that there's something to be said about the fact that we still support BW even though other RTS games have come out and tried to dethrone it. Remember WC3? I barely do. Warhammer RTS (can we even call them that..?)? Not a huge eSport (fun fun fun fun fun. Don't get me wrong, fans), is it?
Remember that those of us who really care about BW will be gone, but at least TL can focus on eSports with or without us, and I think that's important.
Then again, Blizzard tried to shove eSports down everyone's throat once SC2 came out, instead of letting the community grow first.
I'm willing to believe ('cuz I'm deluded like that) that it was more of Blizzard (like you're saying) rather than the game itself. Making a game? Fine. Putting effort into making a game which has a very famous first installment? Faaaair enough.
But designing the game so that it can try to support world-class entertainment right off the bat? Seems a little pretentious, or is it just me?
On January 24 2012 09:23 supernovamaniac wrote: [quote] True/false aside, this is the worse timing to start a new league based on proleague schedule.
Also, what really questions me is that 3 B-Teamers from KT quit recently, while they could have gone for SC2 if this was indeed happening so soon.
Thought anyppi was considering it?
I just edited my thread, but those three leaving means that KeSPA won't get involved with SC2 in Feb at the earliest, because there's no reason for person like anyppi leaving KT if the switch was happening so soon.
On January 24 2012 09:26 JMave wrote: in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is.
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
More edits: Let me elaborate on that.
BW players have solid salary coming from major Korean corporations based on their rank and past performance, and they can live off their salary + incentive + OSL wins and whatsoever. SC2, on the other hand, does not have as much money funded by their sponsors, and the salary, if there is one, is really low.
Is there any indication that sponsors are going to pull funding and disband their teams if Kespa does switch to SC2? (legit question) It's just that I see things being the same if PL does make a full switch. When I say the same, I mean that the teams are still sponsored and they still get the salaries + incentives, and also whatever individual leagues exists at that point. So if BW disappears, everything would just shift towards SC2? This is all "if" there is a full switch happening, just curious.
On January 24 2012 09:12 Lightwip wrote: I'm gone if BW goes. I have no interest in SC2.
I understand how you feel, I'm in the same boat.
BW dies, and I might stop going on TL as often as I do altogether. I'm sorry to say this, but BW's the only reason I'm really still on TL at all.
unfortunately we are a dying breed and the minority.
Even still, I think that there's something to be said about the fact that we still support BW even though other RTS games have come out and tried to dethrone it. Remember WC3? I barely do. Warhammer RTS (can we even call them that..?)? Not a huge eSport (fun fun fun fun fun. Don't get me wrong, fans), is it?
Remember that those of us who really care about BW will be gone, but at least TL can focus on eSports with or without us, and I think that's important.
Then again, Blizzard tried to shove eSports down everyone's throat once SC2 came out, instead of letting the community grow first.
I'm willing to believe ('cuz I'm deluded like that) that it was more of Blizzard (like you're saying) rather than the game itself. Making a game? Fine. Putting effort into making a game which has a very famous first installment? Faaaair enough.
But designing the game so that it can try to support world-class entertainment right off the bat? Seems a little pretentious, or is it just me?
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
@FXOpeneSports FXOpen e-Sports Am a bit sad. The mentioned players in my blog from BW were going to join TSL.... 20 Jan via web
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
If you're going to make a game for and only for multiplayer (tbh that's what SC2 felt like to me; I just didn't find singleplayer that enjoyable and I didn't find that much support for it either), either take LoL approach at the game (free to play but costs more for extra) or sell it off cheaper (CS series for example). In this case, less $$$ would work.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong here, I play BW and SC2, and support both scenes to some extent.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I don't know anything about SC II but did you just say Tassadar's ghost?!
I'm fairly certain Bisu has said that if there's a switch to SC2, he'll go to the military first and let the scene/game develop. It's one of those older interviews though, so I won't be able to dig it up ..
I've been following SC and stalking TL since around 2006, so while I'm not an old guard like some of you guys and I am a fan of both BW and SC2, please don't disregard my comment. I think it's a natural progression that the BW teams eventually switch to SC2. I expected it to happen in 2 years, but they seem to really be hustling things. Kespa apparently sees it's the right time to go with what's new, so, so be it. Starcraft is Starcraft to me. In any case, I'll be happy to see Taek Yong kick ass in SC2 .
In Korea, BW has more money than SC2.
Is is necessary to say this? BW is practically a national sport there, probably the most popular after soccer and.. what else? Of course it has more money than SC2 in Korea, which is very, very tiny in comparison. I thought this was common knowledge :S.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I don't know anything about SC II but did you just say Tassadar's ghost?!
I wish I was kidding. I almost cried. Ready to kill.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
You read wrong. BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
"Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well" Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent"
If they are going to try to compete in the sc2 proleague, and maybe in gom events they may need some sc2 players...
Kespa team =/= BW team. Your "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL"
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players.
What do you mean by Kespa team =/= BW team? It's not like he will get an offer by a cartrider team or something lol. And I think Zergbong was a coach for KT for a long time? So it doesn't seem too far stretched that they would give him an offer.
Sigh. I can't believe I have to clean this up for you. original poster thought zergbong was going to be taken away from sc II and dragged into bw. my first reply was misconstrued as "Kespa would never want to pick up Zergbong". This is the same assumption you're making. I clarified with 2nd reply: Kespa is an eSports organization that wants to make a sc 2 team supposedly and ergo offered him a position on the sc 2 team. original poster therefore does not need to feel any sadness becuz "precious SC2 players [will] stay in the Sc2 scene and there [will] be GSTL and GSL". But kespa or any bw team would never want to pick up bong to play Brood War. The original assumption of the original poster.
BW teams would never be interested in SC II players. mkay?
I may be mistaken but my original impression of the situation was that BW teams (I thought they were kespa teams, still not 100% sure the distinction) were going to be fielding sc2 teams in addition to their BW squads. I was under the impression that some of these team were already practicing s2 and were planning on picking up some low tier players to augment their sc2 squads. When I read the thing about ZergBong I though they meant they would recruit to one of the Kespa team (I thought those were too 8 current brood war teams) to be part of their sc2 squad, NOT to play broodwar, to play sc2. You comment, "B team would never be interested in SC II players" didn't make sense to me because I was and still am under the impression that the team we now consider "BW team" will also start playing sc2, thus those teams would be interested in sc2. My issue with ZergBong leaving IM to a Kespa team is that I am an incredible Miracle fanboy and would hate to see them lose their best zerg. Feel free to correct me on anything, I'm really confused.
He wanted to make a smartass comment and in his fervor failed in reading comprehension is all.
I don't understand why sc2 fans just watch some BW games, honestly there is no reason not to because its just so entertaining to watch AND its free for the top level play.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I don't know anything about SC II but did you just say Tassadar's ghost?!
I wish I was kidding. I almost cried. Ready to kill.
Is it bad to say I only bought SC2 originally for the story, having not watched a game of BW for six years?
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I don't know anything about SC II but did you just say Tassadar's ghost?!
I wish I was kidding. I almost cried. Ready to kill.
Is it bad to say I only bought SC2 originally for the story, having not watched a game of BW for six years?
I can't insult you since I wanted it for the same reason.
On January 24 2012 11:02 poopman wrote: I don't understand why sc2 fans just watch some BW games, honestly there is no reason not to because its just so entertaining to watch AND its free for the top level play.
Problem is that most people think Good graphic = Good game Also, they are more graphic "whores" They cant watch low resolution awesome gameplays...
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 20 and when she's 35. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
I did edit the first post so there's the non-game perspective, but essentially that's how I felt the game was made. Right off the bat they were talking about tournaments of this 'great and upcoming sequel to the greatest eSports title of our time, BW' rather than reinventing the game itself. As soon as it came out, there were updates to balance the game a little more, while adding pretty much nothing to the singleplayer experience.
If anything, ex-MBCHero
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I don't know anything about SC II but did you just say Tassadar's ghost?!
I wish I was kidding. I almost cried. Ready to kill.
Is it bad to say I only bought SC2 originally for the story, having not watched a game of BW for six years?
I can't insult you since I wanted it for the same reason.
BW had a much better story, but the actual levels were boring and kind of same-y. SC2 had a nice variety of levels, but the story was sub-fanfiction
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
I know it's pretty bad, but I think the point come across pretty clear. Most people are shallow and will overlook BW amazing gameplay because ultimately SC2 looks more "modern".
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 20 and when she's 35. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
Mkay...so with the 20 year old women, you lay down and alot happens automaticly....on the other hand with the 35 year old women you have to do this and this and this and this and this aaaand you have to be really fast to have a satisifying result
ps: yes i know in sc2 you have to be fast too, but this way its more funny :p
On January 24 2012 10:54 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I've been following SC and stalking TL since around 2006, so while I'm not an old guard like some of you guys and I am a fan of both BW and SC2, please don't disregard my comment. I think it's a natural progression that the BW teams eventually switch to SC2. I expected it to happen in 2 years, but they seem to really be hustling things. Kespa apparently sees it's the right time to go with what's new, so, so be it. Starcraft is Starcraft to me. In any case, I'll be happy to see Taek Yong kick ass in SC2 .
Is is necessary to say this? BW is practically a national sport there, probably the most popular after soccer and.. what else? Of course it has more money than SC2 in Korea, which is very, very tiny in comparison. I thought this was common knowledge :S.
The original statement that I saw was: "in all honesty, i think moving to sc2 is not a bad idea. as much as i love bw, we cannot deny that it is on the decline. let's face it. they are pro-gamers to make a living for themselves and their families so why not go to where the money is." and I wrote that in response.
GOING BACK TO ORIGINAL STATEMENT WITH FXOBoss, I'm assuming those were A-teamers from MBC game. It doesn't make sense for players to go to TSL unless they were already in contact with the coach of TSL (former coach of MBC). Now, given the recent situation, seems like those players backed off.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
I know it's pretty bad, but I think the point come across pretty clear. Most people are shallow and will overlook BW amazing gameplay because ultimately SC2 looks more "modern".
I don't understand how people can even see what the heck goes on in that game. BW is the clean, modest lady who doesn't seek wealth, is knowledgeable, and understands life.
SC II is a gloat, obsessed with pop culture, has no clue what to do with her future, and ostentatious - covered in 1012382 jewels and colorful crap that you can't even discern anything about her.
If you think about the 3 KT rookies who retired from the BW Scene and all the rumors about Kespa Teams switching over to BW. It doesn't make sense. I remember 1 KT announced that he will try SC2 so I if there was really plans for switching then that KT rookie wouldn't have retired. I think that FXO is just over-hyping that player who 'switched'. I think that player isn't really an A-Teamer. I don't think any of the recent retirees or players with no team, aside from Anyppi & Hiya, told about their interest to switch to SC2.
BUT, If I remembered correctly, Hiya himself told his audience in his stream that the BW scene will be switching.
anyways, I still think FXO owner is just over-hyping and the upgrade in equipment was just not only for SC2.There must be some other reasons why they upgraded their equipment because switching to SC2 while in the middle of the league is just illogical.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 20 and when she's 35. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
Mkay...so with the 20 year old women, you lay down and alot happens automaticly....on the other hand with the 35 year old women you have to do this and this and this and this and this aaaand you have to be really fast to have a satisifying result
ps: yes i know in sc2 you have to be fast too, but this way its more funny :p
I'm talking about watching only. The point is that BW delivers better games usually. But people are not going to watch long enough to understand the game, and because of that won't enjoy BW. SC2 is easier to watch for someone with no knowledge of the game.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
I know it's pretty bad, but I think the point come across pretty clear. Most people are shallow and will overlook BW amazing gameplay because ultimately SC2 looks more "modern".
I don't understand how people can even see what the heck goes on in that game. BW is the clean, modest lady who doesn't seek wealth, is knowledgeable, and understands life.
SC II is a gloat, obsessed with pop culture, has no clue what to do with her future, and ostentatious - covered in 1012382 jewels and colorful crap that you can't even discern anything about her.
.-.
When I first started watching BW I didn't understand shit about what was going on too. It takes time to learn to watch.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
You obviously didnt watch SOTG or you are not an incontrol fan, one or the other.
On January 24 2012 10:30 IntoTheheart wrote: [quote]
Out of curiosity, do you feel that games need to be able to stand on their singleplayer? I certainly do (but then again, I'm really focused on singleplayer in general).
In my honest opinion, the singleplayer aspect of any given game should be as good as the multiplayer experience, as long as the game both supports singleplayer and multiplayer.
In recent times, the development of Internet just boomed the multiplayer scene, and that's why we have everyone bitching about the balance online or how some gun is overpowered as soon as the game gets released. It feels like noone plays the singleplayers anymore. I, on one hand, enjoyed the MW3 singleplayer and play the multiplayer whenever I want to play some mindless shooting games. On the other hand, I quit SC2 singleplayer campaign after playing about 6~7 of them because it felt too dull and repetitive (this is, of course, without the balance/UI issues).
My other issue with the SC2 campaign were the characters. Extremely one-dimensional and uninspiring (except for Zeratul and Findley). The Deus Ex Machina which was the Artifact robbed Blizzard of any way to make the character of Raynor expand. I mean, the box blurb told me more about him than the game itself. Is that sad? I think so.
Pretty much. Everything was shallow and really easy to follow. To be honest, they probably wanted to make more money off the franchise through eSports, so they made the new game. Then again, I might be the only one hating on the shallowness of SC2 singleplayer storyline and character development.
Biggest disappointment? Mine was the artifact just HAPPENING TO BE AWESOME. That just killed it right there. Tassadar's ghost-thing also annoyed me. I spend days when I first beat the campaign finding a way to take it out and now Blizzard slaps me in the face. D-, Blizzard.
I don't know anything about SC II but did you just say Tassadar's ghost?!
I wish I was kidding. I almost cried. Ready to kill.
Is it bad to say I only bought SC2 originally for the story, having not watched a game of BW for six years?
I can't insult you since I wanted it for the same reason.
BW had a much better story, but the actual levels were boring and kind of same-y. SC2 had a nice variety of levels, but the story was sub-fanfiction
Funny, I actually disliked SC2's campaign levels and vastly preferred the BW ones. Boring as it is I would have preferred more SC2 levels where you just macro up and roll the enemy instead of the special mission quests
EDIT: Oh and like most people, SC2's story is hernia inducing
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
On January 24 2012 08:14 Megaliskuu wrote: LoL will probably take over both pretty soon. Either way I've grown apathetic to the news tbh, Broodwar is dying, sc2 sucks, I'm just gonna keep playing bw on fish with my clanmates till it dies, then I'll move on. Pretty simple.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 35 and when she's 20. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
This is the worst face palming analogy I ever heard in my life before....
You obviously didnt watch SOTG or you are not an incontrol fan, one or the other.
On January 24 2012 09:01 fabiano wrote: I wrote, deleted, rewrote, redeleted and wrote again this post again trying to keep it as little SC2 bashing as possible.
For me, SC2 is horrible. It is a really good game if you compare to CnC and it is fun to play casually, but for someone who has been playing BW, watching competitive SC2 is awful, disgusting and I found myself facepalming at each new feature they added/removed from the game. It is enraging.
But it is ok. I just stopped playing it, stopped following it and forgot about it, except the fact that I flushed US$60 down the toilet. I still have BW to play and to watch and everything is kind of okay, even if they ADD SC2 to Proleague its okay, I might even check a game someday to see if I change my mind.
Now, if KeSPA slowly replace BW with SC2 then its just over. In my eyes, the era of the competitive eSports sinks with BW.
We then will be hostages of Browder's 'creative mind'.
gg
I have this feeling with sc2, i played it,i enjoyed it for like 3 months, played like 3000 games? and i thought it was a good game,it entertained me for a while, man i hoped it to be a great game ! It was easy while i was laddering and i thought "well nvm when i get high enough it will be hard and competitive and all the stuff" ,i was Top 10 NA at one point, and it was the same, the game itself felt wrong and i thought about bw, and the countless hours and hours of practice u have spend to just to do some "decent" muta micro or have decent storms or things like that, or all the others features that make bw so unique, now all of that its gone, I i dont' hate sc2 because its sc2 and we are like the underdogs now, i would be totally fine if the game was atleast as good as bw, or just to show some potential, but with its current state its impossible, as i said, the thing that hurt me the most is the feeling of being replaced by something that to my opinion is inferior, and doesnt have the potencial to be at least as good as his predecesor. Its like the same feeling i have about the shitty generic music that every teenager loves and its total crap, but its the mainstream so if its popular its good right?
As lightwhip said, if bw dies im gone, i will play it till there no one to play anymore, because i have no interest in sc2, if that days ever comes, as the last wish i want to someone make a beautiful video about all the amazing memories about this game that have been in my life since 1998 and cry and cry,(because my video skillz sux donkey dicks), but tears of joy and be grateful to all the good memories that the BW community has ever gave me, i can honestly say that my life would have been totally different if i had never played bw, i mean i even met this wonderful girl that im with right now (:
Please bw never die, because if you do, a part of me will die too.
I justed to write some of my sadness away, i kinda feel better now-
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
I was going to save my 3000 posts for something meaningful and memorial but I just need to repudiate this.
Even to this day, when I opened up Nevake's YouTube account, I still get mesmerized by BoxeR's marine control against Zergs. Those movements, stimpack utilized to the highest efficiency still get my jaw dropped drooling on the table. I can really say that only the top Terrans possess the tenacity of BoxeR's flawless micromanagement. Brood War's gameplay have captured my interest since the dawn of its release and SC2 haven't even impressed me 50% of what Brood War offered.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
mind you, what is the exact problem with units clumping up? i mean it's easy enough to unclump and spread, while you still have the option of clumping.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
mind you, what is the exact problem with units clumping up? i mean it's easy enough to unclump and spread, while you still have the option of clumping.
Well let's just say I prefer my unit's to be more spread out than I am in a ball formation ?
Clumping units for me makes it hard to distinguish what exactly is going on. Also if it is indeed easy to spread units, then why do I still see big ball merging each other for every game of sc2
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
mind you, what is the exact problem with units clumping up? i mean it's easy enough to unclump and spread, while you still have the option of clumping.
Well let's just say I prefer my unit's to be more spread out than I am in a ball formation ?
Is that a specific reason for that? or is it just a preference? I mean it's not that difficult to continue spreading and unclumping as you move in sc2, and clumping has its uses.
On January 24 2012 12:33 jidolboy wrote: Clumping units for me makes it hard to distinguish what exactly is going on. Also if it is indeed easy to spread units, then why do I still see big ball merging each other for every game of sc2
but in the engagements they are rarely clumped (unless of course one side was caught without warning), at least in the korean matches
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
mind you, what is the exact problem with units clumping up? i mean it's easy enough to unclump and spread, while you still have the option of clumping.
Well let's just say I prefer my unit's to be more spread out than I am in a ball formation ?
Is that a specific reason for that? or is it just a preference? I mean it's not that difficult to continue spreading and unclumping as you move in sc2, and clumping has its uses.
Both I don't like watching ball vs ball in a late game , I am so freaking used to bw spread out line of dragoons and units , they don't have sticky glue on each of them selves when they go into the battle . Which as a spectator looks really clumsy , second I never liked the idea that from a military perspective each of this games looks like we have been driven back to Napoleon style of warfare , where each commanders will march each of their troops to form some sort of line and attack in that manner which is what I have been seeing in sc2 lately .
Third having spread out unit's give the player the ability to maximised the use of their army and in this case Siege tank line's , having front siege tank take the soak of the damage while enemy unit's try to break them and the behind one support them .
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
I dont really see the point of harping on about this in every post that mildy relates to sc2.
It's a different engine, it's not about the editor. We've seen people do a lot of amazing things with the editor. sc2 uses the swarm AI, whereas bw uses a-star. The editor (probably)allows you to script stuff, not change core engine bits, for which you you'd have to create a whole new build.
It seems like you pulled a sentence out of a random promo video and are using it to bash the game, I do agree that clumping sucks when compared to bw late game battles, but blaming the editor for it is not right.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
mind you, what is the exact problem with units clumping up? i mean it's easy enough to unclump and spread, while you still have the option of clumping.
It is not so much that I have a bone to pick against unit clumping of SC2, it more of agonizing over the 'feel' of it. Call me nostalgic but if you have ever attempt to play Brood War, you would immediately notice the dark atmosphere that it offers, that creep sound from Zerg, burst noise from the Terran's fire and Protoss's death animation. You can really feel the blood splastering everywhere especially with the music. Now SC2 made the game....toy-like, everything is very much surgically replaced with plastics and unnessary shininess that distracted from the gameplay. I can't really distinguish the placement of my units in that death ball as the background restricted it. In BW, I can tell where my units are, one lurker there, defilers there. In SC2, its just a blob of color.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
I dont really see the point of harping on about this in every post that mildy relates to sc2.
It's a different engine, it's not about the editor. We've seen people do a lot of amazing things with the editor. sc2 uses the swarm AI, whereas bw uses a-star. The editor (probably)allows you to script stuff, not change core engine bits, for which you you'd have to create a whole new build.
It seems like you pulled a sentence out of a random promo video and are using it to bash the game,
If sc2 is what they promoted it to be which can do "ANYTHING " , as a consumer It is my damn right to have that "ANYTHING" full filled in my opinion .
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
Oh my god, this. When BW came out the RTS genre and indeed even the entire video gaming industry was still in its infancy. No one even knew how to play RTS. The BW scene grew from scratch for over a decade before it became what it is today. When SC2 came out we already have ~10 years of professional BW as a foundation to help play, design and balance the game. Expecting SC2 to be only as good as BW was in 2000 is just stupid. SC2 needs to be as good as BW is NOW. Otherwise can you blame BW fans for not caring?
Just look at WC3. This is a game that has had a professional scene for almost a decade itself, and yet Blizzard still hasn't (and I doubt they ever will) made it balanced.
This thread should just be closed. this is just another "why sc2 sucks" thread in the bw section that bw players don't even care about other then to trash it.
Honestly I wish both could live side by side but just doesn't look like it but I hope there is at minimum 1 more year of OSL that Jaedong gets out of his crappyish play and dominates :D.
On January 24 2012 12:55 blade55555 wrote: This thread should just be closed. this is just another "why sc2 sucks" thread in the bw section that bw players don't even care about other then to trash it.
Honestly I wish both could live side by side but just doesn't look like it but I hope there is at minimum 1 more year of MSL that Jaedong gets out of his crappyish play and dominates :D.
Seriously bro? I advise you to read ( if you can ) that says Farewell MBCGame on the side where it is clearly visible.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I think you sort of forgot what you were arguing about a sentence into your first paragraph.
What the above were arguing about was not whether or not the Korean scene would be great in 11 years, but whether or not the actual game would become great in 11 years. What you were ranting about is how the SC2 SCENE will die out in Korea in it's current state.
EDIT:
Oh, I just read "I don't care how the game will develop," so now I ask: Why did you even respond to him?
I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I think you sort of forgot what you were arguing about a sentence into your first paragraph.
What the above were arguing about was not whether or not the Korean scene would be great in 11 years, but whether or not the actual game would become great in 11 years. What you were ranting about is how the SC2 SCENE will die out in Korea in it's current state.
EDIT:
Oh, I just read "I don't care how the game will develop," so now I ask: Why did you even respond to him?
Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years. In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens. What happens after the dramatic change (whether it be KeSPA-GomTV agreement or something) is something that I'll consider when it actually happens. "Giving it time" is not the answer; at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea.
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 20 and when she's 35. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
I would say SC2 looks like a 20 year old with too much make-up on. She looks ridiculous, but most are going after her either way because she's considered desirable for some strange reason. BW on the other hand looks like a sophisticated 35 year old. A bit aged but still very beautiful. SC2 is a graphic nightmare for someone who tends to look at the details. Units move as clumps, and because of the unit graphical design and lighting, it's hard to distinguish them beyond that. It's extremely hard to distinguish different unit types from eachother. It really surprises me how little criticism have been directed at the SC2 graphics. Everybody complains about bland units and easy mechanics, but for me the biggest thing turn off with SC2 was the graphics. I just can't see what goes on in the battles, other than who's winning.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I think you sort of forgot what you were arguing about a sentence into your first paragraph.
What the above were arguing about was not whether or not the Korean scene would be great in 11 years, but whether or not the actual game would become great in 11 years. What you were ranting about is how the SC2 SCENE will die out in Korea in it's current state.
EDIT:
Oh, I just read "I don't care how the game will develop," so now I ask: Why did you even respond to him?
Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years. In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens. What happens after the dramatic change (whether it be KeSPA-GomTV agreement or something) is something that I'll consider when it actually happens. "Giving it time" is not the answer; at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea.
"Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years." Again, why respond when we're talking about whether or not the game will become great if you don't care?
"In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens" Actually, in the 2 years sc2 has been out, it has developed a TON. Again, we're not talking about the Korean scene developing, but the actual game.
Also, even if SC2 dies in Korea, I believe the foreign scene will continue to develop the game.
EDIT: Updated with your edited post.
" at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea." Once again, you miss the point of their posts.
On January 24 2012 12:58 insanet wrote: I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
they actually say that they care more about the higher leagues/pro scene than the lower leagues....
On January 24 2012 11:09 poopman wrote: But brood war looks so "clean"
BW is a good looking game, but it's like comparing a woman when she's 20 and when she's 35. The 20 year old looks better than the 35 year old, and most people will go for the former only because of that. But ultimately the 35 year old is better in bed because she has experience.
I would say SC2 looks like a 20 year old with too much make-up on. She looks ridiculous, but most are going after her either way because she's considered desirable for some strange reason. BW on the other hand looks like a sophisticated 35 year old. A bit aged but still very beautiful. SC2 is a graphic nightmare for someone who tends to look at the details. Units move as clumps, and because of the unit graphical design and lighting, it's hard to distinguish them beyond that. It's extremely hard to distinguish different unit types from eachother. It really surprises me how little criticism have been directed at the SC2 graphics. Everybody complains about bland units and easy mechanics, but for me the biggest thing turn off with SC2 was the graphics. I just can't see what goes on in the battles, other than who's winning.
Oh on some parts of that I can agree with you. Sometimes, especially with protoss, battles can be a little bit confusing. The worst unit in that regard is the colossus IMO, the lasers are way too flashy. But I was watching polt vs hero the other day(Two korean players in case you don't follow sc2, polt is terran and hero is protoss), and polt was spreading his units to when he engaged. It make the battles look way more exciting, and made a big difference too, because polt was able to negate a lot of aoe from hero's army. I think in the end pros will learn to keep their army split at all times in order to take less aoe damage, and then the battles will look better. But the game could use a little bit of tone down in it's effects though.
On January 24 2012 12:58 insanet wrote: I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
they actually say that they care more about the higher leagues/pro scene than the lower leagues....
well you are naive if believe everything they say. look, this is what they promised us, at the starcraft 2 zerg reveal trailer 2 years ago
On January 24 2012 12:55 blade55555 wrote: This thread should just be closed. this is just another "why sc2 sucks" thread in the bw section that bw players don't even care about other then to trash it.
Honestly I wish both could live side by side but just doesn't look like it but I hope there is at minimum 1 more year of MSL that Jaedong gets out of his crappyish play and dominates :D.
Seriously bro? I advise you to read ( if you can ) that says Farewell MBCGame on the side where it is clearly visible.
I meant OSL my bad lol. I know they closed sometimes mistype :D. Sorry bout that bra!
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I think you sort of forgot what you were arguing about a sentence into your first paragraph.
What the above were arguing about was not whether or not the Korean scene would be great in 11 years, but whether or not the actual game would become great in 11 years. What you were ranting about is how the SC2 SCENE will die out in Korea in it's current state.
EDIT:
Oh, I just read "I don't care how the game will develop," so now I ask: Why did you even respond to him?
Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years. In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens. What happens after the dramatic change (whether it be KeSPA-GomTV agreement or something) is something that I'll consider when it actually happens. "Giving it time" is not the answer; at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea.
"Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years." Again, why respond when we're talking about whether or not the game will become great if you don't care?
"In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens" Actually, in the 2 years sc2 has been out, it has developed a TON. Again, we're not talking about the Korean scene developing, but the actual game.
Also, even if SC2 dies in Korea, I believe the foreign scene will continue to develop the game.
EDIT: Updated with your edited post.
" at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea." Once again, you miss the point of their posts.
I don't even know where you're trying to go with this if you're going to pick up small statements of what I said, break it apart, and compare it to the foreign scene while I've been DISCUSSING WITH KOREAN SCENE FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD.
NO, I don't care how the game will develop. I care about the scene because it contributes to Korean eSports in general. Is this what you were looking for? Then maybe you should read the entire thread, including the op, to understand where everyone's coming from and why people are talking in such way. Because at this rate, you're the one who's not on the same page as me (as well as rest of the people in this thread), while you're trying to disprove everything that I'm saying.
EDIT: But yes, thanks for clarifying everything, and turning this topic in to SC2 vs BW. I really appreciate your effort into creating another 'informative' thread into flame war. I guess it really is hard for people to stay on topic if they think one game is better than other, while some other people are trying to stay on the actual topic for the entire thread.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I think you sort of forgot what you were arguing about a sentence into your first paragraph.
What the above were arguing about was not whether or not the Korean scene would be great in 11 years, but whether or not the actual game would become great in 11 years. What you were ranting about is how the SC2 SCENE will die out in Korea in it's current state.
EDIT:
Oh, I just read "I don't care how the game will develop," so now I ask: Why did you even respond to him?
Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years. In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens. What happens after the dramatic change (whether it be KeSPA-GomTV agreement or something) is something that I'll consider when it actually happens. "Giving it time" is not the answer; at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea.
"Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years." Again, why respond when we're talking about whether or not the game will become great if you don't care?
"In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens" Actually, in the 2 years sc2 has been out, it has developed a TON. Again, we're not talking about the Korean scene developing, but the actual game.
Also, even if SC2 dies in Korea, I believe the foreign scene will continue to develop the game.
EDIT: Updated with your edited post.
" at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea." Once again, you miss the point of their posts.
I don't even know where you're trying to go with this if you're going to pick up small statements of what I said, break it apart, and compare it to the foreign scene while I've been DISCUSSING WITH KOREAN SCENE FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD.
NO, I don't care how the game will develop. I care about the scene because it contributes to Korean eSports in general. Is this what you were looking for? Then maybe you should read the entire thread, including the op, to understand where everyone's coming from and why people are talking in such way. Because at this rate, you're the one who's not on the same page as me (as well as rest of the people in this thread), while you're trying to disprove everything that I'm saying.
EDIT: But yes, thanks for clarifying everything, and turning this topic in to SC2 vs BW. I really appreciate your effort into creating another 'informative' thread into flame war.
Well, you see, the two posts you were responding to had nothing to do with the Korean scene. It had to do with how the actual game will develop in 11 years. So if you bothered to read the root post, you'd realize what you had to say does not relate to the conversation they were having. And, yes, I understand that you don't care how the game develops, which is why I'm confused as to why you were responding to him.
Also, I'm not trying to start a BW vs SC2 thread at all, if you actually understood what I posted. I'd like you to find one instance of me trying to turn this into a BW vs SC2 thread.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I think you sort of forgot what you were arguing about a sentence into your first paragraph.
What the above were arguing about was not whether or not the Korean scene would be great in 11 years, but whether or not the actual game would become great in 11 years. What you were ranting about is how the SC2 SCENE will die out in Korea in it's current state.
EDIT:
Oh, I just read "I don't care how the game will develop," so now I ask: Why did you even respond to him?
Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years. In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens. What happens after the dramatic change (whether it be KeSPA-GomTV agreement or something) is something that I'll consider when it actually happens. "Giving it time" is not the answer; at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea.
"Because I really don't care how the game will develop, whether it be amazing or horrible, in next 10 years." Again, why respond when we're talking about whether or not the game will become great if you don't care?
"In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens" Actually, in the 2 years sc2 has been out, it has developed a TON. Again, we're not talking about the Korean scene developing, but the actual game.
Also, even if SC2 dies in Korea, I believe the foreign scene will continue to develop the game.
EDIT: Updated with your edited post.
" at the current state SC2 is only going to stay small in Korea." Once again, you miss the point of their posts.
I don't even know where you're trying to go with this if you're going to pick up small statements of what I said, break it apart, and compare it to the foreign scene while I've been DISCUSSING WITH KOREAN SCENE FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD.
NO, I don't care how the game will develop. I care about the scene because it contributes to Korean eSports in general. Is this what you were looking for? Then maybe you should read the entire thread, including the op, to understand where everyone's coming from and why people are talking in such way. Because at this rate, you're the one who's not on the same page as me (as well as rest of the people in this thread), while you're trying to disprove everything that I'm saying.
EDIT: But yes, thanks for clarifying everything, and turning this topic in to SC2 vs BW. I really appreciate your effort into creating another 'informative' thread into flame war.
Well, you see, the two posts you were responding to had nothing to do with the Korean scene. It had to do with how the actual game will develop in 11 years. So if you bothered to read the root post, you'd realize what you had to say does not relate to the conversation they were having. And, yes, I understand that you don't care how the game develops, which is why I'm confused as to why you were responding to him.
Also, I'm not trying to start a BW vs SC2 thread at all, if you actually understood what I posted. I'd like you to find one instance of me trying to turn this into a BW vs SC2 thread.
Yeah, you're definitely on the wrong page. Congratulations on coming into the thread late, reading only last couple of posts, and while I tried to keep things on the right track with the 'scene' discussion instead of game (don't get me wrong, I had to stop myself and PM couple of people to stop doing so), you go back insisting that it's about discussion of a game, something that I never want to do on forums and tried to stop by changing the topic into discussions. Way to stay relevant to the OP
"In reality, there won't be any development in SC2 unless something dramatic happens" Actually, in the 2 years sc2 has been out, it has developed a TON." Given that you think that I don't think SC2 has developed that much (according to your definition), aren't you trying to start something here? Because if you're not, think again. Tons of people on the forums would grab and hold onto something like this, and start endless discussion which leads to SC2 vs BW. Don't believe me? Go search yourself.
"Also, even if SC2 dies in Korea, I believe the foreign scene will continue to develop the game." Way to bring something else into the discussion even after I stated what I was arguing about + the aggression
If you want to argue more while being on the completely different page as I am, don't even bother replying here because your 'useful' posts took up a lot of space. If you want to argue more, take it to PM.
I'd like to just summarize the BW relevent info in this thread so you guys don't have to read anything in the sc2 forums if you don't want to. haha.
okay
1. the coach of one of the larger SC2 teams mentions in the interview a rumor about the KeSPA teams starting sc2 in april.
2. the same coach has recieved offers from KeSPA teams, but will not state which offers.
3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well, in addition to being consulted for new talent for SC2 that KeSPA teams can pick up.
4. Zergbong's admission to KeSPA teams scouting talent from SC2 teams means that likely very few if any pros will switch to SC2 come april. it's probable only a few practice partners, B teamers, and fading stars will switch, as KeSPA seems to be scouting current SC2 talent a lot. this means that we don't have much to fear from the addition of sc2.
5. Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
7. I'd like to thank the translator jellyjello for translating the interview, without that some of these rumors and actions would go unknown to us.
On topic looks like from the interview it seems bw teams are hiring the current sc2 talents instead of trying to turn already the current pro's from broodwar to sc2 .Bw teams will have a sc2 division in their teams I guess to capitalized on the money that sc2 is generating for now.
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
Well this is just about the best news I could have asked to read tonight. Thank you for summarizing the interview, would not have this happy news otherwise.
I'd like to just summarize the BW relevent info in this thread so you guys don't have to read anything in the sc2 forums if you don't want to. haha.
okay
1. the coach of one of the larger SC2 teams mentions in the interview a rumor about the KeSPA teams starting sc2 in april.
2. the same coach has recieved offers from KeSPA teams, but will not state which offers.
3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well, in addition to being consulted for new talent for SC2 that KeSPA teams can pick up.
4. Zergbong's admission to KeSPA teams scouting talent from SC2 teams means that likely very few if any pros will switch to SC2 come april. it's probable only a few practice partners, B teamers, and fading stars will switch, as KeSPA seems to be scouting current SC2 talent a lot. this means that we don't have much to fear from the addition of sc2.
5. Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
7. I'd like to thank the translator jellyjello for translating the interview, without that some of these rumors and actions would go unknown to us.
On topic looks like from the interview it seems bw teams are hiring the current sc2 talents instead of trying to turn already the current pro's from broodwar to sc2 .Bw teams will have a sc2 division in their teams I guess to capitalized on the money that sc2 is generating for now.
Not too sure, as I've seen some weird posts in the past where I've seen really obscure proleague formats that included both sc2 and BW in same match. It never happened, but no one knows if that exact format was discussed or not. Hopefully not.
On January 24 2012 12:58 insanet wrote: I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
they actually say that they care more about the higher leagues/pro scene than the lower leagues....
where did you get this from? Last I read was the changes they were making were for all levels of play.
I'd like to just summarize the BW relevent info in this thread so you guys don't have to read anything in the sc2 forums if you don't want to. haha.
okay
1. the coach of one of the larger SC2 teams mentions in the interview a rumor about the KeSPA teams starting sc2 in april.
2. the same coach has recieved offers from KeSPA teams, but will not state which offers.
3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well, in addition to being consulted for new talent for SC2 that KeSPA teams can pick up.
4. Zergbong's admission to KeSPA teams scouting talent from SC2 teams means that likely very few if any pros will switch to SC2 come april. it's probable only a few practice partners, B teamers, and fading stars will switch, as KeSPA seems to be scouting current SC2 talent a lot. this means that we don't have much to fear from the addition of sc2.
5. Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
7. I'd like to thank the translator jellyjello for translating the interview, without that some of these rumors and actions would go unknown to us.
On topic looks like from the interview it seems bw teams are hiring the current sc2 talents instead of trying to turn already the current pro's from broodwar to sc2 .Bw teams will have a sc2 division in their teams I guess to capitalized on the money that sc2 is generating for now.
Not too sure, as I've seen some weird posts in the past where I've seen really obscure proleague formats that included both sc2 and BW in same match. It never happened, but no one knows if that exact format was discussed or not. Hopefully not.
I suggested it a while back..its not likely but it would be pretty cool I think.
I'd like to just summarize the BW relevent info in this thread so you guys don't have to read anything in the sc2 forums if you don't want to. haha.
okay
1. the coach of one of the larger SC2 teams mentions in the interview a rumor about the KeSPA teams starting sc2 in april.
2. the same coach has recieved offers from KeSPA teams, but will not state which offers.
3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well, in addition to being consulted for new talent for SC2 that KeSPA teams can pick up.
4. Zergbong's admission to KeSPA teams scouting talent from SC2 teams means that likely very few if any pros will switch to SC2 come april. it's probable only a few practice partners, B teamers, and fading stars will switch, as KeSPA seems to be scouting current SC2 talent a lot. this means that we don't have much to fear from the addition of sc2.
5. Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
7. I'd like to thank the translator jellyjello for translating the interview, without that some of these rumors and actions would go unknown to us.
On topic looks like from the interview it seems bw teams are hiring the current sc2 talents instead of trying to turn already the current pro's from broodwar to sc2 .Bw teams will have a sc2 division in their teams I guess to capitalized on the money that sc2 is generating for now.
Not too sure, as I've seen some weird posts in the past where I've seen really obscure proleague formats that included both sc2 and BW in same match. It never happened, but no one knows if that exact format was discussed or not. Hopefully not.
How can you mash both sc2 and bw in to a single format . Please tell me they are rumours right ?
I'd like to just summarize the BW relevent info in this thread so you guys don't have to read anything in the sc2 forums if you don't want to. haha.
okay
1. the coach of one of the larger SC2 teams mentions in the interview a rumor about the KeSPA teams starting sc2 in april.
2. the same coach has recieved offers from KeSPA teams, but will not state which offers.
3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2, has received offers from KeSPA teams as well, in addition to being consulted for new talent for SC2 that KeSPA teams can pick up.
4. Zergbong's admission to KeSPA teams scouting talent from SC2 teams means that likely very few if any pros will switch to SC2 come april. it's probable only a few practice partners, B teamers, and fading stars will switch, as KeSPA seems to be scouting current SC2 talent a lot. this means that we don't have much to fear from the addition of sc2.
5. Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
6. GOMTV will not prevent KeSPA teams from participating in their events, and they hope KeSPA returns the gesture, if this is true and happens, it'll mean stability within the two sections of korean starcraft. likely ending a lot of issues and probably causing blizzard to back off of BW, again good for us.
7. I'd like to thank the translator jellyjello for translating the interview, without that some of these rumors and actions would go unknown to us.
On topic looks like from the interview it seems bw teams are hiring the current sc2 talents instead of trying to turn already the current pro's from broodwar to sc2 .Bw teams will have a sc2 division in their teams I guess to capitalized on the money that sc2 is generating for now.
Not too sure, as I've seen some weird posts in the past where I've seen really obscure proleague formats that included both sc2 and BW in same match. It never happened, but no one knows if that exact format was discussed or not. Hopefully not.
How can you mash both sc2 and bw in to a single format . Please tell me they are rumours right ?
That's why I said 'weird' posts in the past where I've seen really obscure proleague formats that included both sc2 and BW in same match
It was on fomos, and it was a rumor. Some rumors on fomos have been right to a point where I started reading most of the rumors. Some are completely wrong, however.
On January 24 2012 11:02 poopman wrote: I don't understand why sc2 fans just watch some BW games, honestly there is no reason not to because its just so entertaining to watch AND its free for the top level play.
I for one have tried to watch it, aswell as most other top level e-sports out there but the fact that I do not play it myself and don't have any connection to the players whatsoever kind of ruins it. What's great about any e-sport is the players/teams; sure I can spot skill when I see it, but it's hard to make up for 10+ years of BW-storylines. For me it's the same way as with Quake games. I love to watch it, but I can't add anything to a discussion about it, I can't feel a connection to any player outside of my country etc. This is probably not the view of most sc2-fans but I thought I'd offer my opinion anyway. To add to the actual topic, it would be sad if anything was forced on the fans of both BW and SC2 since that helps no one. A good example is CS:S if anyone knows about that scene. They tried to force a game on a community that just laughed and the only ones switching over were (kind of) awful teams and newer players, whilst the pros and fans stayed put and never gave it a second glance. The money comes and goes but a large fanbase is hard to win back.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
I dont really see the point of harping on about this in every post that mildy relates to sc2.
It's a different engine, it's not about the editor. We've seen people do a lot of amazing things with the editor. sc2 uses the swarm AI, whereas bw uses a-star. The editor (probably)allows you to script stuff, not change core engine bits, for which you you'd have to create a whole new build.
It seems like you pulled a sentence out of a random promo video and are using it to bash the game, I do agree that clumping sucks when compared to bw late game battles, but blaming the editor for it is not right.
I understand why bw unit movement is so weird now. It`s just A* + hard/soft collision avoidance.
I think some sort of "Maintain formation" button would alleviate this issues tho. But that wouldn't remedy the fact that strategical positioning is not such a staple principle in sc2 as it is in bw.
EDIT: And I think this is actually doable in the editor to some extent. Not worth the effort tho, as if you put it into a map most people would go WTF LOL DUMB UNITS BORKEN WONT MOVE
How this is going on depends on the market, actually I think SC2 offers an established niche (much smaller than BW) and the actual Kespa Teams dont want invest a lot in something that right now doesnt have a good revenue, but can be a good complement, because those teams have already the installations. If you see the PC Bangs numbers, it would be stupid to replace BW for SC2 or even forcing a transition in a MMO world and where the only real contender is BW.
I love how Lim Jae Duk is "Nestea" in the SC2 threads and "Zergbong" in the BW threads. As for the BW pros switching over, I wonder if only B-teamers will come over to test the waters or will it be a full transition.
On January 24 2012 12:58 insanet wrote: I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
they actually say that they care more about the higher leagues/pro scene than the lower leagues....
But their purpose is to make money, so in the end they only "say" they care more about higher leagues but will still balance and introduce new units with lower level players taken into consideration.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Mods, please make "give it time" bannable
We gave sc2 ten's year of time to develop it self in to the ultimate "E-Sports" game like DB and friends have been preaching , I mean I still recall them saying the editor " Can Do ANYTHING " . Well if it can do anything than un clump the units and not make it into the ball when you right click a control group of units to the destination you ordered them to go.
mind you, what is the exact problem with units clumping up? i mean it's easy enough to unclump and spread, while you still have the option of clumping.
Well let's just say I prefer my unit's to be more spread out than I am in a ball formation ?
Is that a specific reason for that? or is it just a preference? I mean it's not that difficult to continue spreading and unclumping as you move in sc2, and clumping has its uses.
Please spend one minute of your time and watch this video. After that, tell me which looks better, spread out units or having all of them in a ball.
On January 24 2012 12:58 insanet wrote: I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
they actually say that they care more about the higher leagues/pro scene than the lower leagues....
well you are naive if believe everything they say. look, this is what they promised us, at the starcraft 2 zerg reveal trailer 2 years ago
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Cool.
but what we actually got? this shit.
You're complaining you didn't get what was shown in a game trailer in the same breath as calling someone else naive?
On January 24 2012 12:58 insanet wrote: I already lost hope on sc2 with dustin browder and david kim designing this game, the only way to save sc2 is to fire them.
they want to balance bronze league and grandmaster at the same time and that is retarded, they should balance everything about grandmasters and then release a newbie mod or ladder or whatever for lower leagues if they care so much.
they actually say that they care more about the higher leagues/pro scene than the lower leagues....
well you are naive if believe everything they say. look, this is what they promised us, at the starcraft 2 zerg reveal trailer 2 years ago
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Cool.
but what we actually got? this shit.
You're complaining you didn't get what was shown in a game trailer in the same breath as calling someone else naive?
Looking at that trailer I think the pathfinding algorithm was actually different at that point, perhaps to try to emulate BW. But at some point they might have just said "Ah screw it, let's just have big clumps"
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
On January 24 2012 12:33 jidolboy wrote: Clumping units for me makes it hard to distinguish what exactly is going on. Also if it is indeed easy to spread units, then why do I still see big ball merging each other for every game of sc2
That's the million dollar question, really. BW fans say it's because BW is a better game, and SC2 fans (counter-intuitively) say that it's because SC2 players are bad. We're starting to see SC2 players purposefully split up their units more to avoid splash, get better flanks, etc
But generally, micro in SC2 is less important than having a better build. There was a game about a month ago where Puma opened 14CC against 1 -rax FE. Puma lost one SCV scout and that was yet. Despite having a less greedy opening and doing no damage to make up for it, though, Thorzain attacked after ten minutes or so with 50 marines to 36, 1 tank to 0, 1/0 to 0/0, a third on the way, and even an SCV lead. Puma was massively "out-macroed", but it was more that Thorzain's build was much tighter and crisper. (And that Thorxain was better at building SCVs, apparently)
Are Thorzain's units clumping? Yes. Is that good? No (Puma has all his marines firing, some of Thorzain's are in the back). Does Thorzain have the whole army on one hotkey? Yes. Is that good? No (The medivacs don't heal when the marines move because they're on the same hotkey) Does it matter? Not really. Is Puma making macro mistakes? Yes, actually. Pause at 11:30, and you'll see him queuing up a bunch of marines unessicarily. He probably also missed and SCV or two, since he's behind on those. But none of those things matter because Thorzain's build is simply better in every way.
BW fans will look at that battle and say "Yeah, but the actual battle was so boring! Thorzain basically a-moved." And they'd be right! That was a fairly boring engagement. The question, the only question, is does it inherently have to be, or are players just getting away with bad micro because the other guy made an even worse mistake?
And a lot of games get won on either that, "you did a retarded move", or "I can drop three places and you can't defend three drops because you're a fucking professional and you still have your whole army on one hotkey Jesus Christ"
A lot of the reason SC2 fans are so exicted about BW players switching is because they believe that it'll accelerate the development of the game until that stops mattering, and then execution suddenly becomes the main thing, and then suddenly we'll see "real" SC2.
BW fans, of course, don't buy this. They feel SC2 is inherently inferior as a game, and no amount of skill can make up for that. Personally, I think it's somewhere in between, with the skill cap of SC2 being lower than BW, but by less than a lot of BW fans think.
No LAN? Right... and you wanted to be taken seriously as an e-Sport?
Clumped units?
Magic casting?
Small maps?
No defender's advantage?
I could deal with MBS and unlimited unit selection (because the latter simply means the inferior players can move around their army a little better - but you still have to use all the hotkeys if you want to engage properly), but the rest? Ugh.
As much as I like playing SC2, and like watching SC2, to see my BW heroes play that game would be the death of me. Hope no one above the level of MVP/ForGG/Hyun switches right off the bat.
Give it time, BW has had 11 years to turn in to an amazing game. Give SC2 the time it needs. I honestly believe it'll get there at some point.
Sorry but I'm going to grab and rant on this one.
Give it time, SC2 will die in its current state. I don't care how the game will develop, and I don't care what the skill cap is going to be. GomTV is still a minority channel (if its even considered a channel, they broadcast on borrowed timeslot from an anime channel) in Korea, and the players themselves are not making more money. What SC2 needs right now is the corporate sponsors, and bigger coverage of tournaments, as well as better production value and sets.
I don't care if BW took 11 years to become amazing. BW, as amazing it is, had a lucky start, but SC2 didn't have that. In fact, SC2 failed in Korea due to illegal advertising, funky price packages etc. Want an example? Couple of friends and I went to a PC Bang in Korea. We played few BW 2v2s and decided to play SC2. Turns out, two of us (including myself) do not have Korean passport, which meant we couldn't create Korean battle.net account (this has been solved with TW/KR server). The server merge solved the problem, yes, but that's not the point. SC2 had an awful kick start in Korea.
So unless something dramatic happens (ideal solution: GomTV and OGN both casts SC2 games, or some kind of Proleague that's casted on both "stations"), SC2 ain't getting big in Korea
Note: I've been talking about Korea, don't bring 'foreign scene' into the discussion.
I'm pretty sure the current Korean SC2 teams will die before the BW teams stop BW, either way. SC2 in Korea is in a ton of trouble.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
Some day in the future when kespa move to SC2 And koreans stops watching esports because is boring and the whole community breaks down Blizzard will finally say: What have we done!! It was a terrible game xD
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
Well I am not sure whether your opinion's represent what guemchi really want's to say about going pro to sc2
Guemchi Playing Starcraft II does not satisfy his desire to play Starcraft - He misses fans cheering for him, and the feeling of winning together with his team mates.
I am just going to leave this here and let it speak for him self.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
he lived with startale and called their practice schedule terrible. he also failed to qualify for GSL open 3. i think that counts as having switched for a fairly significant time.
GuemChi played for a short while but kind of failed in SC2. Only did one prelims and never made it out. I think he had like 3 wins in a smaller tournament under his name before calling it quits. Not sure if you can take that as a victory of a BW player switching back.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
he lived with startale and called their practice schedule terrible. he also failed to qualify for GSL open 3. i think that counts as having switched for a fairly significant time.
Oh, he did switch. I guess I just never heard of him playing SC2. I am allowed to go "Pfft. BW is a game where Guemchi is good!"?
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
Guemchi Playing Starcraft II does not satisfy his desire to play Starcraft - He misses fans cheering for him, and the feeling of winning together with his team mates.
I am just going to leave this here and let it speak for him self.
Not that going from BW to late-2010 era (where 2-rax SCV all-in was standard TvZ) SC2 wasn't a fairly massive drop in the quality of the game, both because of any BW vs SC2 debates and because GSL 3 is considered the worst major SC2 tournament ever, but I still find "I tried SC2, but I missed winning" to be kind of funny.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
he lived with startale and called their practice schedule terrible. he also failed to qualify for GSL open 3. i think that counts as having switched for a fairly significant time.
Oh, he did switch. I guess I just never heard of him playing SC2. I am allowed to go "Pfft. BW is a game where Guemchi is good!"?
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
Well I am not sure whether your opinion's represent what guemchi really want's to say about going pro to sc2
Guemchi Playing Starcraft II does not satisfy his desire to play Starcraft - He misses fans cheering for him, and the feeling of winning together with his team mates.
I am just going to leave this here and let it speak for him self.
Not that going from BW to late-2010 era (where 2-rax SCV all-in was standard TvZ) SC2 wasn't a fairly massive drop in the quality of the game, both because of any BW vs SC2 debates and because GSL 3 is considered the worst major SC2 tournament ever, but I still find "I tried SC2, but I missed winning" to be kind of funny.
Well let's just say it's funny for you , but it's kind of a personal thing , because he is the one making bucks from gaming at a pro level :3.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
he lived with startale and called their practice schedule terrible. he also failed to qualify for GSL open 3. i think that counts as having switched for a fairly significant time.
Oh, he did switch. I guess I just never heard of him playing SC2. I am allowed to go "Pfft. BW is a game where Guemchi is good!"?
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
Well I am not sure whether your opinion's represent what guemchi really want's to say about going pro to sc2
Guemchi Playing Starcraft II does not satisfy his desire to play Starcraft - He misses fans cheering for him, and the feeling of winning together with his team mates.
I am just going to leave this here and let it speak for him self.
Not that going from BW to late-2010 era (where 2-rax SCV all-in was standard TvZ) SC2 wasn't a fairly massive drop in the quality of the game, both because of any BW vs SC2 debates and because GSL 3 is considered the worst major SC2 tournament ever, but I still find "I tried SC2, but I missed winning" to be kind of funny.
to be fair guemchi was only any "good" for one brief, shining period where he had 100% winrate (in one night)
but fuck yeah g-chizzle TTwTT looking forward to when stars plays him in PL again
On January 24 2012 15:40 Sawamura wrote: Well let's just say it's funny for you , but it's kind of a personal thing , because he is the one making bucks from gaming at a pro level :3.
Oh, absolutely. I don't blame him at all. To switch to the next big thing and discover A.) It's all rushes all the time because it's 2010 and you don't know that'll be patched later, and B.) You're expected to work for free. It's entirely understandable that his passion for starcraft included a passion for macro games and/or paychecks.
On January 24 2012 15:40 Sawamura wrote: Well let's just say it's funny for you , but it's kind of a personal thing , because he is the one making bucks from gaming at a pro level :3.
Oh, absolutely. I don't blame him at all. To switch to the next big thing and discover A.) It's all rushes all the time because it's 2010 and you don't know that'll be patched later, and B.) You're expected to work for free. It's entirely understandable that his passion for starcraft included a passion for macro games and/or paychecks.
The point is anything that makes Guemchi boat floats is good .
I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their "ego", or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said. I know that you guys love your game, i love it too, but completely ignore the fact that SC2 is a good game or even flaming them is just ....
All top players in SC2 are the one have good RTS background, that mean the game still required some skillset similar to Broodwar such as multitask, micro, macro.
MVP is a promising player when he transfer to SC2 (he would be at least Bogus level right now if he still play the game),
Nestea or Zergbong is a rising zerg before he go to the army, when he came back he have to play 2v2 as skill decrease.
MMA is a very good player too, but with personal problem he retired with 1-2 record.
MC even with 1-9 record in team league, he is still very good player on practice, no way MBC team keep sending him out if he is bad.
And tons of A-, B+ players such as Puma, Sangho, Ganzi,....
And dont forget all of the new and young players who started playing Broodwar late, and start playing SC2 at 15, 16, 17 years old. They might be someone like Flash if it isnt for SC2, kids such as Leenock at 16, Creator 14, Coca 17, and a tons more who are currently at teenagers.
Some of you guys definitely have the point with some of the mechanic, even though the unit are clump, you can use micro or even with your godly BWish apm, multitask to assign more than 1 control group.
I love both games, and i hope you do too , and dont forget SC1: BW is nothing until the patch 1.08 of broodwar expansion coming out,
SC2 in its first year of vanilla, doing great as it is, still having 2 more expansions to come, I have no doubt that the game will be much better game. never doubt Blizzard except their time.
Sc2 is so premature atm. Not sure how people can say its a better game, beginning of starcraft and brood war it was similar... Its just got different mechanics, at this time it will be builds that win it most of time, but generally speaking, itll get better, i mean blizzard is good at what they do. im sure itll all work itself out.
On January 24 2012 15:58 minhbq299 wrote: I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their ego, or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said.
Oh, come on. This is as bad as the "all SC2 players are D- 12-year-olds". Brood War is a good game. It is not "SC2 but worse". Nor is it really "SC2 but better". It is a game, similar in many ways to SC2 yet different in others, that some people really like because they really like it and for no other reason.
I compare BW/SC2 to Mega Man 2/Mega Man X. They're clearly the same franchise, but they're really really different in a lot of ways, too. MM2/BW is considered the classic, and many people consider it the best. But there are also a lot of people who like MMX/SC2 and consider it to be the best game. And there are people who like both games quite a lot, and think the infighting (are there MM2/MMX flamewars?) is overblown a bit
On January 24 2012 15:54 Lokian wrote: last I heard, nestea was pissed at kespa for ruining his life with 2v2 format. so yeah... don't have to worry about nestea going to a kespa team.
why would he blame kespa for 'ruining his life'? he was asked by KTF to play in 2v2 because it would be extremely difficult to get playing time in individual matches with the stacked line-up of players they had back then.
On January 24 2012 15:58 minhbq299 wrote: I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their ego, or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said.
Oh, come on. This is as bad as the "all SC2 players are D- 12-year-olds". Brood War is a good game. It is not "SC2 but worse". Nor is it really "SC2 but better". It is a game, similar in many ways to SC2 yet different in others, that some people really like because they really like it and for no other reason.
I compare BW/SC2 to Mega Man 2/Mega Man X. They're clearly the same franchise, but they're really really different in a lot of ways, too. MM2/BW is considered the classic, and many people consider it the best. But there are also a lot of people who like MMX/SC2 and consider it to be the best game. And there are people who like both games quite a lot, and think the infighting (are there MM2/MMX flamewars?) is overblown a bit
More people with this sentiment would make threads much more efficient and not overblown as they always degrade to
On January 24 2012 15:58 minhbq299 wrote: I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their "ego", or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said. I know that you guys love your game, i love it too, but completely ignore the fact that SC2 is a good game or even flaming them is just ....
All top players in SC2 are the one have good RTS background, that mean the game still required some skills smilar to Broodwar such as multitask, micro, macro MVP is a promising player when he transfer to SC2 (he would be at least Bogus level right now if he still play the game),
Nestea or Zergbong is a rising zerg before he go to the army, when he came back he have to play 2v2 as skill decrease.
MMA is a very good player too, but with personal problem he retired with 1-2 record.
MC even with 1-9 record in team league, he is still very good player on practice, no way MBC team keep sending him out if he is bad.
And tons of A-, B+ players such as Puma, Sangho, Ganzi,....
And dont forget all of the new and young players who started playing Broodwar late, and start playing SC2 at 15, 16, 17 years old. They might be someone like Flash if it isnt for SC2, kids such as Leenock at 16, Creator 14, Coca 17, and a tons more who are currently at teenagers.
Some of you guys definitely have the point with some of the mechanic, even though the unit are clump, you can use micro or even with your godly BWish apm, multitask to assign more than 1 control group.
I love both games, and i hope you do too , and dont forget SC1: BW is nothing until the patch 1.08 of broodwar expansion coming out,
SC2 in its first year of vanilla, doing great as it is, still having 2 more expansions to come, I have no doubt that the game will be much better game. never doubt Blizzard except their time.
Oh the usual comment from the other side taking pot shots at us oldies because we have really bad comp's ? Even If I had a good computer I wouldn't have install starcraft 2 and rather be playing cs source . If i want to enjoy graphics if that is the case .Well I have a reasonable fair opinion about what sc2 is but the game is hard in it's own context arguing one game is superior than the other will get on people's nerve . Which is frequently seen in the Cs 1.6 vs Cs source kids throwing muds at each other because each individual prefer the game they love .
Also calling broodwar is nothing until 1.08 , well let's just say the changes made Boxer switch protoss to terran because the reaver Ai went a little inconsistent in killing it's target . So I wouldn't call the patches made broodwar nothing at all , I had lot's of fun making cannon for 1 hour with my friends . Playing broodwar competitively never cross my mind at all . So you have the right to have your opinion and I do have my opinion too but that doesn't mean I will think that sc2 will be the much BETTER game .
On January 24 2012 15:58 minhbq299 wrote: I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their "ego", or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said. I know that you guys love your game, i love it too, but completely ignore the fact that SC2 is a good game or even flaming them is just ....
All top players in SC2 are the one have good RTS background, that mean the game still required some skillset similar to Broodwar such as multitask, micro, macro.
MVP is a promising player when he transfer to SC2 (he would be at least Bogus level right now if he still play the game),
Nestea or Zergbong is a rising zerg before he go to the army, when he came back he have to play 2v2 as skill decrease.
MMA is a very good player too, but with personal problem he retired with 1-2 record.
MC even with 1-9 record in team league, he is still very good player on practice, no way MBC team keep sending him out if he is bad.
And tons of A-, B+ players such as Puma, Sangho, Ganzi,....
And dont forget all of the new and young players who started playing Broodwar late, and start playing SC2 at 15, 16, 17 years old. They might be someone like Flash if it isnt for SC2, kids such as Leenock at 16, Creator 14, Coca 17, and a tons more who are currently at teenagers.
Some of you guys definitely have the point with some of the mechanic, even though the unit are clump, you can use micro or even with your godly BWish apm, multitask to assign more than 1 control group.
I love both games, and i hope you do too , and dont forget SC1: BW is nothing until the patch 1.08 of broodwar expansion coming out,
SC2 in its first year of vanilla, doing great as it is, still having 2 more expansions to come, I have no doubt that the game will be much better game. never doubt Blizzard except their time.
Even though I can play sc2 on high, I dont play as much as BW. You say SC2 mechanic isnt that easier? I have trouble macroing and microing units in BW, but SC2 makes it so much easier. BW macro : click f2, press individual raxes. Press "m" . Try doing that while killing lurkers :0 BW micro : hotkey groups of marines seperately. Hotkey medics seperately. Hotkey firebats seperately Stim, split, and run. SC2 macro : hotkey all rax into one number! Spam or hold "m". Voila. New batch of marines SC2 micro : hotkey infinite numbers of marines and a couple of medivacs in one or two hotkeys. stim and split your marines You decided if SC2 mechanics isnt that much easier ( This is my experience as solid D iccup player and master player in sc2)
On January 24 2012 15:58 minhbq299 wrote: I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their "ego", or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said. I know that you guys love your game, i love it too, but completely ignore the fact that SC2 is a good game or even flaming them is just ....
All top players in SC2 are the one have good RTS background, that mean the game still required some skillset similar to Broodwar such as multitask, micro, macro.
MVP is a promising player when he transfer to SC2 (he would be at least Bogus level right now if he still play the game),
Nestea or Zergbong is a rising zerg before he go to the army, when he came back he have to play 2v2 as skill decrease.
MMA is a very good player too, but with personal problem he retired with 1-2 record.
MC even with 1-9 record in team league, he is still very good player on practice, no way MBC team keep sending him out if he is bad.
And tons of A-, B+ players such as Puma, Sangho, Ganzi,....
And dont forget all of the new and young players who started playing Broodwar late, and start playing SC2 at 15, 16, 17 years old. They might be someone like Flash if it isnt for SC2, kids such as Leenock at 16, Creator 14, Coca 17, and a tons more who are currently at teenagers.
Some of you guys definitely have the point with some of the mechanic, even though the unit are clump, you can use micro or even with your godly BWish apm, multitask to assign more than 1 control group.
I love both games, and i hope you do too , and dont forget SC1: BW is nothing until the patch 1.08 of broodwar expansion coming out,
SC2 in its first year of vanilla, doing great as it is, still having 2 more expansions to come, I have no doubt that the game will be much better game. never doubt Blizzard except their time.
Seriously we aren't playing sc2 because our computers can't run it therefore we don't like it? Are you like 15 years old? What kind of thought process is that?
It's not ego either. I don't play CnC, warhammer etc not because of ego but because I tried them and think they're pretty rubbish. Same goes for sc2. It's not even that it's an easier game and I have to play an incredibly difficult game to satisfy my huge ego. I just find it boring.
Those players you listed sucked in bw, that's why they transferred, end of discussion. Whether or not they would soon become whatever fantasized level you are dreaming up is totally hypothetical. Many other players like Snow, Mind, Kal, Kwanro, Shine... list goes on have been hyped to be "the next big thing", all having shown mixed and varied results. To say flat out that MVP would be Bogus level just shows how shallow your understanding of the game really is.
The thing is, we already know what makes bw such a good game and when the whole community begged on their knees for those features in sc2, Blizzard just flipped the bird and did whatever they thought would cater to the largest market and maximize sales. Why the fuck do you think Wii being such a piece of shit sold so much more than PS3?
Sure I'll play sc2 if my friends and I go to internet cafes together why not? Same way as I'll listen to Lady Gaga and 50 cent from time to time and eat Mcdonalds sometimes. Why the fuck not, it's not bad and it satisfies me somewhat. But to say that it's better than so many other alternatives out there... the most glaring one being its predecessor...
cant wait for JD/Effort to play mass roach or bisu going collosus deathball will be so much fun, and it really would look to me like legend is being killed, homogenous gameplay is a good way to kill identity
this flash macro SK terran which was showed few pages ago? It can be easily reproduced by a diamond player in sc2. I dont care about stats(well i care but not only), i care about beautiful, spectacular play, the thing that blizzard forgot to implement. Build order wins and smart usage of auto surrounds/auto concaves, is deceitful beautiful play for a spectator eye.
On January 24 2012 17:19 pyrogenetix wrote: It's not even that it's an easier game and I have to play an incredibly difficult game to satisfy my huge ego. I just find it boring.
Those players you listed sucked in bw, that's why they transferred, end of discussion
yep, they tried hard long enough but couldn't make it trough.
The thing is, we already know what makes bw such a good game and when the whole community begged on their knees for those features in sc2, Blizzard just flipped the bird and did whatever they thought would cater to the largest market and maximize sales.
so true. but yeah they don't want sc2 to live as long as bw so they can make sc3! Another noobie-friendly game where it's easy to achieve "competetive" level..
Sure I'll play sc2 if my friends and I go to internet cafes together why not? Same way as I'll listen to Lady Gaga and 50 cent from time to time and eat Mcdonalds sometimes.
On January 24 2012 12:28 moopie wrote: Yes BW is likely at an end as KeSPA teams transition later on this year.
A bit of a shame to some of us, but the new generation of kids will appreciate it. We'll always have vods.
Kids these days with their I-pods and their mobile Wi-fi and their MBS and their Unlimited Unit selection and their "action-packed gameplay" and their flashy graphics and their deathballs and their fanfic campaigns and their...
On January 24 2012 12:28 moopie wrote: Yes BW is likely at an end as KeSPA teams transition later on this year.
A bit of a shame to some of us, but the new generation of kids will appreciate it. We'll always have vods.
Kids these days with their I-pods and their mobile Wi-fi and their MBS and their Unlimited Unit selection and their "action-packed gameplay" and their flashy graphics and their deathballs and their fanfic campaigns and their...
GID' OFF MAH LAWN!
but.... but I'm using my galaxy nexus to check proleague results, and it also has flashy graphics and good pictures..... T_T
On January 24 2012 12:28 moopie wrote: Yes BW is likely at an end as KeSPA teams transition later on this year.
A bit of a shame to some of us, but the new generation of kids will appreciate it. We'll always have vods.
Kids these days with their I-pods and their mobile Wi-fi and their MBS and their Unlimited Unit selection and their "action-packed gameplay" and their flashy graphics and their deathballs and their fanfic campaigns and their...
GID' OFF MAH LAWN!
but.... but I'm using my galaxy nexus to check proleague results, and it also has flashy graphics and good pictures..... T_T
I watch and play SC2 but I just can't follow it the same as BW. It's fun, but it's nowhere near what BW gave me for almost 8 years. But what I can't deny is that I'm looking forward to BW teams playing SC2. Maybe because I like the teams & players so much....and there is little naive hope that they make SC2 better by just playing it like noone else does.
Anyway I'm getting older. I left Broodwar behind and would only come back to really watching games when proteams switch to SC2.
I wonder, when will people finally start appreciating and valuing something that is so uniform and monolithic in its own perfection, that other variants seem to be out of the league or simply irritating. Why on earth there should be a need for SC2 switch, that SC2 fans are so willing to happen? Did you try to play BW, really? If you did and had enough time to understand the concept, there would be no need in alternatives. God damn it, EDUCATE YOURSELF!
I want so fucking bad to like SC2, but I just cant. The game is so boring and repetitive and I really doubt, that flash, jaedong, bisu, etc.. can change that. Just the game is flawed. If the switch happens and the real bw pros, start playing it professionally, I think sc2 will be solved in less than a year.
On January 24 2012 15:58 minhbq299 wrote: I am sad for those BW fans that cant get off their "ego", or cant upgrade their PC . Poor you guys. even some of the mechanic is easier in SC2 compared to BW, the game still is not as easy as some of you said. I know that you guys love your game, i love it too, but completely ignore the fact that SC2 is a good game or even flaming them is just ....
All top players in SC2 are the one have good RTS background, that mean the game still required some skillset similar to Broodwar such as multitask, micro, macro.
MVP is a promising player when he transfer to SC2 (he would be at least Bogus level right now if he still play the game),
Nestea or Zergbong is a rising zerg before he go to the army, when he came back he have to play 2v2 as skill decrease.
MMA is a very good player too, but with personal problem he retired with 1-2 record.
MC even with 1-9 record in team league, he is still very good player on practice, no way MBC team keep sending him out if he is bad.
And tons of A-, B+ players such as Puma, Sangho, Ganzi,....
And dont forget all of the new and young players who started playing Broodwar late, and start playing SC2 at 15, 16, 17 years old. They might be someone like Flash if it isnt for SC2, kids such as Leenock at 16, Creator 14, Coca 17, and a tons more who are currently at teenagers.
Some of you guys definitely have the point with some of the mechanic, even though the unit are clump, you can use micro or even with your godly BWish apm, multitask to assign more than 1 control group.
I love both games, and i hope you do too , and dont forget SC1: BW is nothing until the patch 1.08 of broodwar expansion coming out,
SC2 in its first year of vanilla, doing great as it is, still having 2 more expansions to come, I have no doubt that the game will be much better game. never doubt Blizzard except their time.
User was warned for this post
Shit, we're from the same country...
The world's most presumptuous post, ladies and gentleman!
Kinda wish there was a slashdot style moderating system here so we could mark posts as flamebait. Just don't respond -_-
Anyway, as I said in the other thread, I don't think this is the right time to switch. And I'm not saying this because I think BW needs to stick around longer or anything. It's just that it's clear that SC2 in its current incarnation is not ready to be broadcast to all the faithful BW fans in Korea. I really think they should wait after HotS comes out. If OGN starts broadcasting SC2 right now, even if HotS turns out to be great, I'm sure droves of Korean viewers will have already lost interest. There's no guarantee that HotS will be great, but I just see transitioning now to be a lose/lose scenario.
Then there's all the other stuff talked about in the SC2 thread regarding the SC2 team stability and whatnot. I'm not that strongly attached to the SC2 teams, but I wouldn't mind giving them some more time and the foreign scene to stabilize more.
As for whether BW players will switch? Well, I suspect the majority of them will. Even if they dislike SC2, they're professional RTS gamers at heart, and they still want to earn a living playing RTS games competitively. Hell, IdrA hates SC2, yet he still plays it.
Can't imagine the top tier BW pro's ever switching to SC2, but if they do I suppose then I'd watch more SC2 just to keep up with them, still don't see that ever happening. I've played SC2 since beta and am now getting into BW as far as playing but pro league has always been much more exciting to watch when compared to SC2 tournaments, it may be new and not developed but it just doesn't have that "spark" that BW has.
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
he lived with startale and called their practice schedule terrible. he also failed to qualify for GSL open 3. i think that counts as having switched for a fairly significant time.
Oh, he did switch. I guess I just never heard of him playing SC2. I am allowed to go "Pfft. BW is a game where Guemchi is good!"?
On January 24 2012 15:29 Sawamura wrote:
On January 24 2012 15:26 Ribbon wrote:
On January 24 2012 15:23 Sawamura wrote:
On January 24 2012 15:18 Ribbon wrote:
On January 24 2012 15:13 Sawamura wrote:
On January 24 2012 15:03 therockmanxx wrote: I just want pretty much all sc2 players move back to b team and epic games Is that too much to ask ??
After earning so much and having so much fame in sc2 , you think the converted bw players into sc2 bonjwa's will return to broodwar to go back to a b team ? . Not happening likely . Only few exceptions were Guemchi , in which he quitted sc2 and went back to broodwar because he doesn't feel the same way as he did when he was popular in broodwar .
No one who switched to SC2 from BW is going back.
Some of the people who started with SC2 (e.g. Creator) may switch to BW if poached.
I don't consider Guemchi to have switched. He considered it, and decided against it (perhaps after learning most SC2 players don't get paid)
Well I am not sure whether your opinion's represent what guemchi really want's to say about going pro to sc2
Guemchi Playing Starcraft II does not satisfy his desire to play Starcraft - He misses fans cheering for him, and the feeling of winning together with his team mates.
I am just going to leave this here and let it speak for him self.
Not that going from BW to late-2010 era (where 2-rax SCV all-in was standard TvZ) SC2 wasn't a fairly massive drop in the quality of the game, both because of any BW vs SC2 debates and because GSL 3 is considered the worst major SC2 tournament ever, but I still find "I tried SC2, but I missed winning" to be kind of funny.
to be fair guemchi was only any "good" for one brief, shining period where he had 100% winrate (in one night)
but fuck yeah g-chizzle TTwTT looking forward to when stars plays him in PL again
I ROFL'd IRL. All of these serious talk and you come bringing this here :D
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
Im a Starcraft II player and I wont lie, Brood War is a much better, harder, more rewarding and more exciting game, and beats Starcraft II in nearly every single aspect, besides graphics, and I want to play the game, but im afraid its a tad to tricky for me ><
So goodluck to you all for BroodWar, because I too like to watch BroodWar whenever it is on
Are big sponsors like SKT, KT, STX, etc ready to inject the same amount of money (if not more) in a game that is less popular ? But it's true that KeSPA committee is made of representatives from the big sponsors, so if KeSPA is ok to switch, that means sponsors are ok too....
That would be the end of watching e-sports for me. I really tried hard to watch SC2, but it's just unwatchable
On January 24 2012 20:41 endy wrote: I'd be extremely sad to see BW ending so early.
Isn't there supposed to be an OSL very soon ?
Are big sponsors like SKT, KT, STX, etc ready to inject the same amount of money (if not more) in a game that is less popular ? But it's true that KeSPA committee is made of representatives from the big sponsors, so if KeSPA is ok to switch, that means sponsors are ok too....
That would be the end of watching e-sports for me. I really tried hard to watch SC2, but it's just unwatchable
Does anyone know what the ratings were like for the SC2 WCG broadcasts? That's probably the best indication of how much kespa might think they can actually get out of a SC2 league.
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
And brood war had wacraft 2 as predecessor. See the connection? Blizzard had all their years to make this game, they had many years, and documentations, analyzies of gameplay done for them by community and the fact that something is not working or "give it time" is just a disgrace. No matter how you want to put it. Im actually looking at diablo 3 progress and i really cant help but to laugh, its so simmilar to sc - sc2, the "we want to make different game" attitude that in the end just circles around and goes back to the core of gameplay from it predeccesor. I just cant wait for "oh shit they were right" attitude to kick in.
Do all of you realize that even with BW being the better game, an excellent strategy game, perfect for esports etc... It's so old that there are barely ANY "new" player who can start from scratch, train long enough (probably minimum 2 years), for X hours a day, while being a noname, to make a B-team when the scene is already waning ?
This is the problem with esports right now, and CS1.6 had the same one : people are so good at this difficult game, that no one can catch up, and without new players, there's no future. It is bound to die eventually, since new, young gamers are attracted to more flashy games. Difficulty, while being a blessing for the competitiveness of the game, is also it's plight. The scene grows older, older, older, and eventually people move on.
In board games or sport, you don't have this problem since there are no new ones available. And they are mainstream enough that you can learn them via clubs and so on right at school. People *know* the games and sports won't change, and can invest the necessary time to invest their life in it. Video games.... well maybe, but barely. Who right now would have the balls to invest the necessary time to become a pro at Starcraft 1, looking at the prospects of an already waning scene ? Probably only a handful, and it's not gonna be enough to keep the scene alive right now.
Understand this : I love BW as much as you do, I haven't found a better strategy game yet, but I still enjoy watching SC2, because some high quality games really deserve it. The unitball many people complain about, is the fault of the game engine, but also of the players, not taking the time and apm to micro properly. But this is gonna evolve, and they will only get better. Consider it as an obstacle to master, which actually raises the skill ceiling of the game !
I, for one, think it would be better to ultimately have the players I love switch to SC2 instead of just being out of a job in a few months/years. Then I could still love and follow them, their history, rivalries and weird moments :p It could become a good game really, when the players actually take advantage of the easier mechanics to micro, spread, multiprong, flank... instead of being lazy with ze ball.
I should have detailed it more and make it into a blog, but I don't have enough time.
Why the SC2 community thinks that BW teams switching to SC2 is just a matter of time is beyond me. Why would kespa keep the move secret from all the current teams and then suddenly screw everyone by announcing the supposed switch this april?
And SC2 fans keep suggesting that their scene is going to become so much better when all the A-class players and TBLS switch over, which is hilarious. Do you really think that the current generation of players will just shift places to SC2 and keep everything from rivalries to relative skill levels the same? More importantly, wishing that BW players will switch over to make the SC2 scene better implies that your agreeing that SC2 is currently in a terrible form without any outstanding SC2 player to make it more exciting then stupid death balls rolling around onscreen.
On January 24 2012 21:09 Nouar wrote: Do all of you realize that even with BW being the better game, an excellent strategy game, perfect for esports etc... It's so old that there are barely ANY "new" player who can start from scratch, train long enough (probably minimum 2 years), for X hours a day, while being a noname, to make a B-team when the scene is already waning ?
This is the problem with esports right now, and CS1.6 had the same one : people are so good at this difficult game, that no one can catch up, and without new players, there's no future. It is bound to die eventually, since new, young gamers are attracted to more flashy games. Difficulty, while being a blessing for the competitiveness of the game, is also it's plight. The scene grows older, older, older, and eventually people move on.
In board games or sport, you don't have this problem since there are no new ones available. And they are mainstream enough that you can learn them via clubs and so on right at school. People *know* the games and sports won't change, and can invest the necessary time to invest their life in it. Video games.... well maybe, but barely. Who right now would have the balls to invest the necessary time to become a pro at Starcraft 1, looking at the prospects of an already waning scene ? Probably only a handful, and it's not gonna be enough to keep the scene alive right now.
Understand this : I love BW as much as you do, I haven't found a better strategy game yet, but I still enjoy watching SC2, because some high quality games really deserve it. The unitball many people complain about, is the fault of the game engine, but also of the players, not taking the time and apm to micro properly. But this is gonna evolve, and they will only get better. Consider it as an obstacle to master, which actually raises the skill ceiling of the game !
I, for one, think it would be better to ultimately have the players I love switch to SC2 instead of just being out of a job in a few months/years. Then I could still love and follow them, their history, rivalries and weird moments :p It could become a good game really, when the players actually take advantage of the easier mechanics to micro, spread, multiprong, flank... instead of being lazy with ze ball.
I should have detailed it more and make it into a blog, but I don't have enough time.
Agree 100%, by far BW is better to watch and definietly has its spark that keep me playing it but i can enjoy watching SC2 just as much
Do all of you realize that even with BW being the better game, an excellent strategy game, perfect for esports etc... It's so old that there are barely ANY "new" player who can start from scratch, train long enough (probably minimum 2 years), for X hours a day, while being a noname, to make a B-team when the scene is already waning ?
Nothing is going to stop young aspiring korean players who wants to be the next bisu ,flash and jaedong . In fact just take a look at the young aspiring rookies that are owning up the broodwar scene right now take for example Bogus,Last,Wooki,Shy ,Dear,Alone Neo G Soulkey . The future is quite bright in my opinion for broodwar and if what SNM said in it's blog that starcraft is a culture which people will still keep playing for years to come than my faith that the bw scene will be receiving new blood will always be there .
This is the problem with esports right now, and CS1.6 had the same one : people are so good at this difficult game, that no one can catch up, and without new players, there's no future. It is bound to die eventually, since new, young gamers are attracted to more flashy games. Difficulty, while being a blessing for the competitiveness of the game, is also it's plight. The scene grows older, older, older, and eventually people move on.
Well let's take this fact to the test , the current market has a lot of experience players who run the scene and you are just a fresh graduate from university , despite knowing the fact you wouldn't stand a chance competing this already experience players in the field is that going to stop you from exploring and becoming more experience your self to reach the goal you want to be ? . My point is , playing what games you like pretty subjective and if young korean players want to commit themselves to become a pro gamer , no one is stopping them in fact courage tournament is always waiting for them with open arm's .
In board games or sport, you don't have this problem since there are no new ones available. And they are mainstream enough that you can learn them via clubs and so on right at school. People *know* the games and sports won't change, and can invest the necessary time to invest their life in it. Video games.... well maybe, but barely. Who right now would have the balls to invest the necessary time to become a pro at Starcraft 1, looking at the prospects of an already waning scene ? Probably only a handful, and it's not gonna be enough to keep the scene alive right now.
Broodwar is mainstream in korea , even kids were playing this in primary schools and they don't need to dedicate countless hour's to play the game after all it's a great past time for kids to be playing broodwar and if they decide to go pro . Whose stopping these kids from doing so ? .
Understand this : I love BW as much as you do, I haven't found a better strategy game yet, but I still enjoy watching SC2, because some high quality games really deserve it. The unitball many people complain about, is the fault of the game engine, but also of the players, not taking the time and apm to micro properly. But this is gonna evolve, and they will only get better. Consider it as an obstacle to master, which actually raises the skill ceiling of the game !
I disagree with this statement you say you haven't found a better strategy and yet you prefer watching sc2 . Let's just say sc2 has become the burning passion for you now and for me even after trying out sc2 , my preferred competitive video game is still broodwar . Well you are hoping for sc2 to evolve , but it ain't happening because blizzard will keep feeding PR statements saying , oh we will be putting in LAN soon just you wait for the next expansion , Fast forward and blizzard will keep saying yes we will the units spread out more for you in Sc3 . Please support us . So nope , no thank you , Everything that I have wanted is already in brood war.
I, for one, think it would be better to ultimately have the players I love switch to SC2 instead of just being out of a job in a few months/years. Then I could still love and follow them, their history, rivalries and weird moments :p It could become a good game really, when the players actually take advantage of the easier mechanics to micro, spread, multiprong, flank... instead of being lazy with ze ball.
Well the decision to move or stay is up to the players as a fan I will support where they go and although if they go instead to sc2 , I will tip of my hat and wish them good luck in their journeys because despite them playing a game with the same name "starcraft " that is . The game is so different , on a personal level , I didn't like the way the game feels and most of my gripes are with the way the game look itself . Although that is probably me because I prefer more simple graphics rather than explosive eye candy in my face action all the time . Of course if most of the team do switch to sc2 even if it's KT , I will definitely drop by to catch up how my bonjwa's are doing , but don't expect me to be supporting them the way I did for broodwar .
So, i put this up to try to quell alot of the fears some BW fans have been having lately, as all evidence is pointing to KeSPA handling sc2 as a supplement to BW instead of a successor. As a fan of both games i thought i'd make sure to share the info about BW in the interview with you guys so you don't have to try to find it in the sc2 section that you don't care about (some of you).
and guys honestly, none of you need to worry about the top BW players switching. we all know that at least fantasy will remain for years after everyone else would have switched(if they ever do lol)
On January 24 2012 22:12 PrinceXizor wrote: So, i put this up to try to quell alot of the fears some BW fans have been having lately, as all evidence is pointing to KeSPA handling sc2 as a supplement to BW instead of a successor. As a fan of both games i thought i'd make sure to share the info about BW in the interview with you guys so you don't have to try to find it in the sc2 section that you don't care about (some of you).
and guys honestly, none of you need to worry about the top BW players switching. we all know that at least fantasy will remain for years after everyone else would have switched(if they ever do lol)
Let's just say I appreciate the fact that you made this thread and a really informative one ,as for some of us are just loggerheads who swear not to enter in to the sc2 section because it will be blasphemy .Although I think it's a great ignorance to avoid what's happening over the side of the fence and that's just another story . Thanks again .
On January 24 2012 22:21 _Quasar_ wrote: SC2 in proleague fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Please noooo.
Aghh First blood ,Quasar it hasn't happen yet ,why the doom cries ? Also according to the article are pointing that sc2 and Bw , will have each separate division rather than a combine one .
What I dont get is the following : Would the top 5 bw players be willing to leave their safe zone and go to sc2 ? edit: nvm i already read the answer in thread ...
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
Samsung, htc, lg are selling android smartphones like crazy in US, would make a lot of sense to them to even ignore a lil the domestic market if they could ad in usa trough games....
Sawamura ok ok, it's not that dramatic, but anything considering that out of the blue we suddenly need SC2-related things in Proleague makes me ffffffuuuuuu hard. I don't understand why it's needed. As if Anand and Gelfand were made to play not only chess but also badminton for a chess world crown, lol.
On January 24 2012 21:21 white_horse wrote: Why the SC2 community thinks that BW teams switching to SC2 is just a matter of time is beyond me. Why would kespa keep the move secret from all the current teams and then suddenly screw everyone by announcing the supposed switch this april?
And SC2 fans keep suggesting that their scene is going to become so much better when all the A-class players and TBLS switch over, which is hilarious. Do you really think that the current generation of players will just shift places to SC2 and keep everything from rivalries to relative skill levels the same? More importantly, wishing that BW players will switch over to make the SC2 scene better implies that your agreeing that SC2 is currently in a terrible form without any outstanding SC2 player to make it more exciting then stupid death balls rolling around onscreen.
Why not? MBC is gone, OZ, MBCGame HERO, and WeMadeFOX are gone. Why wouldn't it be a viable idea to consider looking into SC2? That's what Nestea said, they asked him about his oppionion. This would be news you can't just announce on something like a podcast. It would need decent planning and a lot of talk between the teams, sponsors and OGN.
And apart from that, what's stopping Kespa/OGN from starting a SC2 tournament too see how the audience responds with the option to opt out if they don't get the ratings?
It's possible. We don't know. Let's just wait and see.
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
On January 24 2012 22:29 _Quasar_ wrote: Sawamura ok ok, it's not that dramatic, but anything considering that out of the blue we suddenly need SC2-related things in Proleague makes me ffffffuuuuuu hard. I don't understand why it's needed. As if Anand and Gelfand were made to play not only chess but also badminton for a chess world crown, lol.
I think it'd be closer to Go players switching to chess.
people switching from a superior niche game to a slightly inferior widely popular game.
if that makes any sense. but yeah everything in the article points to not only are BW teams not switching over to sc2 altogether, but they seem to be only willing to spend minimal amounts of money to get into SC2, which means they are definitely not going to go crazy and make SC2 half of proleague or switch entirely. if they were doing that they wouldn't be asking for names of people who are good but can't break into the current sc2 scene.
And remember pls that the Flash-JD-Stork-Bisu-Zero-Fantasy generation is NOT the last. There are players like Bogus-Soulkey-Stats-By.Sun etc... how many beautiful games they've delivered already! It would make perfect sense in bw got another generation of top players (or lol, even if not top, because its hard to beat Flash, then at least near the top).
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
Popularity is the least of SC2's problems.
In Korea, popularity is a problem.
You forget a little deail. This is KeSPa we are talking about, where the main concern is the domestic market. You are not the main audience. No matter how many you are, half the KeSPA companies win nothing by prioritizing you over the domestic economy, so you are not that important.
On January 24 2012 21:09 Nouar wrote: Do all of you realize that even with BW being the better game, an excellent strategy game, perfect for esports etc... It's so old that there are barely ANY "new" player who can start from scratch, train long enough (probably minimum 2 years), for X hours a day, while being a noname, to make a B-team when the scene is already waning ?
This is the problem with esports right now, and CS1.6 had the same one : people are so good at this difficult game, that no one can catch up, and without new players, there's no future. It is bound to die eventually, since new, young gamers are attracted to more flashy games. Difficulty, while being a blessing for the competitiveness of the game, is also it's plight. The scene grows older, older, older, and eventually people move on.
In board games or sport, you don't have this problem since there are no new ones available. And they are mainstream enough that you can learn them via clubs and so on right at school. People *know* the games and sports won't change, and can invest the necessary time to invest their life in it. Video games.... well maybe, but barely. Who right now would have the balls to invest the necessary time to become a pro at Starcraft 1, looking at the prospects of an already waning scene ? Probably only a handful, and it's not gonna be enough to keep the scene alive right now.
Understand this : I love BW as much as you do, I haven't found a better strategy game yet, but I still enjoy watching SC2, because some high quality games really deserve it. The unitball many people complain about, is the fault of the game engine, but also of the players, not taking the time and apm to micro properly. But this is gonna evolve, and they will only get better. Consider it as an obstacle to master, which actually raises the skill ceiling of the game !
I, for one, think it would be better to ultimately have the players I love switch to SC2 instead of just being out of a job in a few months/years. Then I could still love and follow them, their history, rivalries and weird moments :p It could become a good game really, when the players actually take advantage of the easier mechanics to micro, spread, multiprong, flank... instead of being lazy with ze ball.
I should have detailed it more and make it into a blog, but I don't have enough time.
This is the best response in the thread and put it way better than I would have.
On January 24 2012 22:29 _Quasar_ wrote: Sawamura ok ok, it's not that dramatic, but anything considering that out of the blue we suddenly need SC2-related things in Proleague makes me ffffffuuuuuu hard. I don't understand why it's needed. As if Anand and Gelfand were made to play not only chess but also badminton for a chess world crown, lol.
I think it'd be closer to Go players switching to chess.
people switching from a superior niche game to a slightly inferior widely popular game.
if that makes any sense. but yeah everything in the article points to not only are BW teams not switching over to sc2 altogether, but they seem to be only willing to spend minimal amounts of money to get into SC2, which means they are definitely not going to go crazy and make SC2 half of proleague or switch entirely. if they were doing that they wouldn't be asking for names of people who are good but can't break into the current sc2 scene.
It's weird though , if bw pro gamers have strict practice regime solely for broodwar only , How does sc2 comes in to the picture ? I mean if they truly want to compete with the global starcraft scene having only a few months of preparation isn't going to win you a gsl you know . No not even flash or Jaedong is going to pull a miracle and start winning in sc2 tournaments while practising it for like 2 hours a day during break .
LoL hacks up to 150k viewers man... is it because its free?
just like SC2, LoL is casual and aimed for newbies accessibility and it can be fun to play for a while, but its a pain in the ass to watch it and nothing 'competitive' can really be taken seriously.
On January 24 2012 23:03 fabiano wrote: LoL hacks up to 150k viewers man... is it because its free?
just like SC2, LoL is casual and aimed for newbies accessibility and it can be fun to play for a while, but its a pain in the ass to watch it and nothing 'competitive' can really be taken seriously.
well I would agree with you till IEM Kiev, now I really dont know...
On January 24 2012 23:03 fabiano wrote: LoL hacks up to 150k viewers man... is it because its free?
just like SC2, LoL is casual and aimed for newbies accessibility and it can be fun to play for a while, but its a pain in the ass to watch it and nothing 'competitive' can really be taken seriously.
well I would agree with you till IEM Kiev, now I really dont know...
is it worth watching?
recommend me games please, want to see how SC2 is rightnow (humble request)
I have two o no the sky is falling ideas that actually worry me to an extent.
What if Kespa just decides they don't need or want any competition and do financially push away gom and what not by buying players effectively and telling them they can't compete in other tournaments without their permission?
And, What if Kespa just decides when they switch over with all their players that they just don't need most of the current players either?
Hahaha you just fail , you show pictures from live events , and try compere them to Sc2 television match for studio where is less space for audience ?. Its picture from GSL studio you fool
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
Isn't he going to the military anyway soon or has he been there..?
Hahaha you just fail , you show pictures from live events , and try compere them to Sc2 television match for studio where is less space for audience ?. Its picture from GSL studio you fool
Hahaha you just fail , you show pictures from live events , and try compere them to Sc2 television match for studio where is less space for audience ?. Its picture from GSL studio you fool
What about GSL final audience vs OSL
also. dunno about the LoL picture. but the BW picture is form a normal Broodwar playday in the sutdio.
Hahaha you just fail , you show pictures from live events , and try compere them to Sc2 television match for studio where is less space for audience ?. Its picture from GSL studio you fool
What about GSL final audience vs OSL
also. dunno about the LoL picture. but the BW picture is form a normal Broodwar playday in the sutdio.
I don't really care about LoL so i don't know about that pic but as rasers said, the bw picture is from a normal BW playday in the studio, i've watched every single match this season, and in everyone of them the studio has been full (:
On January 24 2012 23:03 fabiano wrote: LoL hacks up to 150k viewers man... is it because its free?
just like SC2, LoL is casual and aimed for newbies accessibility and it can be fun to play for a while, but its a pain in the ass to watch it and nothing 'competitive' can really be taken seriously.
well I would agree with you till IEM Kiev, now I really dont know...
is it worth watching?
recommend me games please, want to see how SC2 is rightnow (humble request)
Well I was talking about lol. Sc2 gsl level is pretty high in code s (still a child compared to bw tho ... )
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
Poor you. Reddit SC2 has killed your soul. I'll see if i can find you something warm and fluffy.
Haha, won't deny that i lost a lot of interest in esports in general after that incident.
But BW scene switching to SC2 isn't really a "rumor" from what I know :S
How can you be sure? And can you give us anymore details, especially whether you're referring to entire teams? The OP and others seem to think that we're only talking about C-teamers practically, and maybe some B-teamers who actually do play BW pretty well, but not many.
I will be excited either way. Because former BW players have been so successful in SC2, many SC2 fans respect the top BW players like Jaedong even though they don't watch them. Even if players of that top caliber don't switch to SC2, it'll be cool to see SC2 players playing in the same practice house and environment as Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc. Maybe the same practice environments that produced those players can produce some excellent SC2 players.
Also maybe it would give SC2 more legitimacy in KR if BW teams had SC2 teams? Obviously it would help a ton if big names switched to SC2, but I still don't believe that yet.
On January 24 2012 23:03 fabiano wrote: LoL hacks up to 150k viewers man... is it because its free?
just like SC2, LoL is casual and aimed for newbies accessibility and it can be fun to play for a while, but its a pain in the ass to watch it and nothing 'competitive' can really be taken seriously.
On January 24 2012 23:03 fabiano wrote: LoL hacks up to 150k viewers man... is it because its free?
just like SC2, LoL is casual and aimed for newbies accessibility and it can be fun to play for a while, but its a pain in the ass to watch it and nothing 'competitive' can really be taken seriously.
lol at this elitist bullshit.
Yea, you could just as easily say that no video game should ever be taken seriously for the same reason, but I'm sure fabiano wouldn't agree with that argument. How difficult can it be to sit in a chair and type on a keyboard, right? I mean I do that everyday. Why would anyone watch people do that?
It's an entirely subjective perspective that almost doesn't even warrant discussing. You will never convince people that the things they are passionate about aren't worth taking seriously.
On January 24 2012 07:47 Luepert wrote: If Nestea (zergbong) leaves IM for a BW team I'm gunna be so friggin pissed. As long my precious SC2 players stay in the Sc2 scene and there continues to be GSTL and GSL, I am happy
Isn't he going to the military anyway soon or has he been there..?
He actually went to the military before he even was a BW progamer, iirc.
If anything, I have a feeling that the BW sponsors would just dissolve their teams and get out of the scene rather than take on SC2 teams. After all, who cares or even knows about SK Telecom or KT outside of Korea? They're rival telecommunication companies that operate within South Korea. Since SC2 market is mostly outside of Korea, there is really no incentive for these guys to sponsor a Korean SC2 team.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
I think no one is insane enough to disagree with you But the simplicity is what makes lol sell so much for girls and young audience ... And where is more people money will be there ...
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
I just want BW scene to prosper Too much losses...
same, but times are changing. I can get behind SC2, only if its a smooth transition. None of that middle of the season crap. I want a proper ending of the epic BW legacy in Korea if they do decide to end it (oh God I hope not).
On January 24 2012 09:01 fabiano wrote: I wrote, deleted, rewrote, redeleted and wrote again this post again trying to keep it as little SC2 bashing as possible.
For me, SC2 is horrible. It is a really good game if you compare to CnC and it is fun to play casually, but for someone who has been playing BW, watching competitive SC2 is awful, disgusting and I found myself facepalming at each new feature they added/removed from the game. It is enraging.
But it is ok. I just stopped playing it, stopped following it and forgot about it, except the fact that I flushed US$60 down the toilet. I still have BW to play and to watch and everything is kind of okay, even if they ADD SC2 to Proleague its okay, I might even check a game someday to see if I change my mind.
Now, if KeSPA slowly replace BW with SC2 then its just over. In my eyes, the era of the competitive eSports sinks with BW.
We then will be hostages of Browder's 'creative mind'.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Everything else being equal, a team game is always more popular than individual game though. ( yes i know, in starcraft, teams have crucial role with practice and strategies and what not but in essence the game is still 1v1). The same way football/basketball is much more popular than tennis/track/swimming etc. It's always fun to see interactions and even conflicts between teammates. In this sense, I don't really think you can compare LoL and SC2.
Also, it is sad that in BW and SC2, the majority of the viewers don't really play anymore. Heck, even TL staff don't play SC2 anymore ( they play LoL and Dota more as far as i can see) and reddit starcraft are full of people who do not even own the game despite being one of the most active subreddits. That makes it so hard to attract new bloods to the game a few years in. How can you tell someone that the game is fun and worth following when you don't even play the game anymore.
Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
Most teams have to see that SC2 in proleague/Kespa is at least a possibility. and the teams who are the last to start practising it will be the worst.
It will take months to get used to the different mechanics and micro and get players knowledge even close to the current SC2 S class players.
So what good team wouldnt at least have a few players who are ready to represent their team in SC2 in case it happens? Or do you think they will just keep playing BW hoping everything fixes itself?
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
LOL is much harder than SC2, in lol you must coordinate with 4 guys trough a 50 minute match, in sc2 you just pick up a BO and play trough the game until someone looses, no macro no micro no anything.
Also
OSL finals - in an airport hangar, super full place, flash comes out of a fucking airplane like a badass, effort comes from the sky god knows how everyone exited and some random guys playing the drums.
SC2. finals - In a park, can barely fill half of it, like 1k people, everyone bored , boring games.
On January 25 2012 01:52 mansa wrote: A rumor is a rumor not even worth a thread of its own.. lolz...
haha that's so true! but i enjoyed to watch this thread because i can feel that many people seriously think about BW. Can i say this is a huge love for BW? lol
A rumor is just a rumor, everyone is too much worried about the future. Calm down take it easy. Let's think when it happens.
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
Oh come on, the topic of this thread is that maybe kespa might drop broodwar. We are just discussing the topic, ie the pros and cons of kespa switching to scII and therefore the pros and cons of bw and scII. Sorry for contributing...
On January 25 2012 01:56 ivirj wrote: LOL is much harder than SC2, in lol you must coordinate with 4 guys trough a 50 minute match, in sc2 you just pick up a BO and play trough the game until someone looses, no macro no micro no anything.
Also
OSL finals - in an airport hangar, super full place, flash comes out of a fucking airplane like a badass, effort comes from the sky god knows how everyone exited and some random guys playing the drums.
SC2. finals - In a park, can barely fill half of it, like 1k people, everyone bored , boring games.
On January 25 2012 01:56 ivirj wrote: LOL is much harder than SC2, in lol you must coordinate with 4 guys trough a 50 minute match, in sc2 you just pick up a BO and play trough the game until someone looses, no macro no micro no anything.
Also
OSL finals - in an airport hangar, super full place, flash comes out of a fucking airplane like a badass, effort comes from the sky god knows how everyone exited and some random guys playing the drums.
SC2. finals - In a park, can barely fill half of it, like 1k people, everyone bored , boring games.
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
Oh come on, the topic of this thread is that maybe kespa might drop broodwar. We are just discussing the topic, ie the pros and cons of kespa switching to scII and therefore the pros and cons of bw and scII. Sorry for contributing...
actually the topic of the thread was proof that kespa was continuing strong with brood war. i should know i wrote it.
What most of you have to realise at some point is that Starcraft:Broodwar is not getting any bigger on the contrary its getting smaller. but Starcraft 2 and other games are growing by the day.
and as someone who has loved esports since blizzard patched Starcraft to allow me to watch Boxer and Grrr... replays, there is only so much of one game you can take. i got bored of broodwar years ago but starcraft 2 renewed my love for esports in general. now i watch heaps of stuff including both. The trill of esports for me is not the game they play but the skills they use in order to win. the Mastery of their chosen battlefield.
yo if it has to happen, make it quick, these non stop messages from last 2-3 years of bw collapse, pro switch, team disbanding, match fixing. If bw dies im going outside and quitting all this video game bullshit. Curse the day of 2008 when i click on youtube game category and saw baezzi. Give me a last Flash vs Jangbi bo5, Bisu vs jaedong bo5 and Jaedong vs Effort bo5 and im set to move on with life
This season of osl had better be fucking badass... According to the number of korean "insiders" who have been saying that the switch is inevitable, it might be the last. D= D=
Yeah, I don't like sc2 that much, but let it exist, i don't even care. Just don't take my proleague!
Do all of you realize that even with BW being the better game, an excellent strategy game, perfect for esports etc... It's so old that there are barely ANY "new" player who can start from scratch, train long enough (probably minimum 2 years), for X hours a day, while being a noname, to make a B-team when the scene is already waning ?
Nothing is going to stop young aspiring korean players who wants to be the next bisu ,flash and jaedong . In fact just take a look at the young aspiring rookies that are owning up the broodwar scene right now take for example Bogus,Last,Wooki,Shy ,Dear,Alone Neo G Soulkey . The future is quite bright in my opinion for broodwar and if what SNM said in it's blog that starcraft is a culture which people will still keep playing for years to come than my faith that the bw scene will be receiving new blood will always be there .
Nothing ? In a blooming or stable scene, you're right. This is not the case right now. Of all the players you list, only Wooki and sHy are "true" rookies, having played their first games in 2010. Last, Bogus : August 2008 Soulkey : September 2008 Dear, Alone : September 2009.
I went through the whole first page of TLPD and only found Brave as another successful rookie.
2009 seems close, but it's been 2 and a half year already, and they must have spent minimum 2 years being top amateurs before succeeding Courage... It means even sHy and Wooki most likely made the decision to try and become pros in 2008 ? Brood War was stable and in very good shape in 2008. Is it now ?
Speaking about Courage, I'd very much like to see stats on how many courage tournaments there are nowadays and the amount of people trying. KeSPA website lists the last courage in december 2010, I believe it got renamed to Rookie League or Tournament ? You might know since the thread was yours, and Ryo said it. About the semi-pro drafts, there were 114 people applying in two rounds in 2010, a mere 26 in 2011.... Should I say more ?
A player like HiyA would not have been left behind if teams were actively looking for players. Perfectman got lucky. So many people ended up with the short end of the stick you can't seriously believe all is fine right now in BW. (And that all will be, things usually grow worse, rarely go back up. Only something like another league, a big sponsor taking Team8, or else could do it but I believe it's too late already. Look at the star studded lineup of [8], now look at the sponsors ?...)
This is the problem with esports right now, and CS1.6 had the same one : people are so good at this difficult game, that no one can catch up, and without new players, there's no future. It is bound to die eventually, since new, young gamers are attracted to more flashy games. Difficulty, while being a blessing for the competitiveness of the game, is also it's plight. The scene grows older, older, older, and eventually people move on.
Well let's take this fact to the test , the current market has a lot of experience players who run the scene and you are just a fresh graduate from university , despite knowing the fact you wouldn't stand a chance competing this already experience players in the field is that going to stop you from exploring and becoming more experience your self to reach the goal you want to be ? . My point is , playing what games you like pretty subjective and if young korean players want to commit themselves to become a pro gamer , no one is stopping them in fact courage tournament is always waiting for them with open arm's .
I don't have number nor evidence here, so I will just say this : young korean aiming to be pro-gamers, in SC1, might just not have the choice. Their parents, seeing the SC1 scene and teams disbanding left and right, might forbid them to.
In board games or sport, you don't have this problem since there are no new ones available. And they are mainstream enough that you can learn them via clubs and so on right at school. People *know* the games and sports won't change, and can invest the necessary time to invest their life in it. Video games.... well maybe, but barely. Who right now would have the balls to invest the necessary time to become a pro at Starcraft 1, looking at the prospects of an already waning scene ? Probably only a handful, and it's not gonna be enough to keep the scene alive right now.
Broodwar is mainstream in korea , even kids were playing this in primary schools and they don't need to dedicate countless hour's to play the game after all it's a great past time for kids to be playing broodwar and if they decide to go pro . Whose stopping these kids from doing so ? .
Again here, I don't have hard evidence, nothing, since I'm not a Korean. Just a feeling. I wouldn't want to invest a lot of years into something which might net me 0 dollars since it'd be dead when I arrive. Then again, children don't really look at that first. If they enjoy it still a lot, ok. But I'd doubt them not being attracted by newer, shinier games. (talking about ~12-14yo here)
Understand this : I love BW as much as you do, I haven't found a better strategy game yet, but I still enjoy watching SC2, because some high quality games really deserve it. The unitball many people complain about, is the fault of the game engine, but also of the players, not taking the time and apm to micro properly. But this is gonna evolve, and they will only get better. Consider it as an obstacle to master, which actually raises the skill ceiling of the game !
I disagree with this statement you say you haven't found a better strategy and yet you prefer watching sc2 . Let's just say sc2 has become the burning passion for you now and for me even after trying out sc2 , my preferred competitive video game is still broodwar . Well you are hoping for sc2 to evolve , but it ain't happening because blizzard will keep feeding PR statements saying , oh we will be putting in LAN soon just you wait for the next expansion , Fast forward and blizzard will keep saying yes we will the units spread out more for you in Sc3 . Please support us . So nope , no thank you , Everything that I have wanted is already in brood war.
What ? I don't *prefer* watching SC2 ! I have little choice in fact, I've been watching Proleague and leagues at lunch for more than 7 years, there are right now not enough games or events to feed me enough starcraft. So I watch SC2, and enjoy it too, less than SC1, but still, some games are really nice. I'm old enough to imagine by myself what the game will become in the following years. I'm not overoptimistic, just saying it can only get better, and it's not SO bad right now. Imagine before/after muta micro, stop lurkers etc. And I'm not gonna declare SC2 will forever be shit before it is fully completed with both expansions. (doesn't mean it can't be shit at any point in time, or wasn't already, I just reserve my final decision for the end)
I, for one, think it would be better to ultimately have the players I love switch to SC2 instead of just being out of a job in a few months/years. Then I could still love and follow them, their history, rivalries and weird moments :p It could become a good game really, when the players actually take advantage of the easier mechanics to micro, spread, multiprong, flank... instead of being lazy with ze ball.
Well the decision to move or stay is up to the players as a fan I will support where they go and although if they go instead to sc2 , I will tip of my hat and wish them good luck in their journeys because despite them playing a game with the same name "starcraft " that is . The game is so different , on a personal level , I didn't like the way the game feels and most of my gripes are with the way the game look itself . Although that is probably me because I prefer more simple graphics rather than explosive eye candy in my face action all the time . Of course if most of the team do switch to sc2 even if it's KT , I will definitely drop by to catch up how my bonjwa's are doing , but don't expect me to be supporting them the way I did for broodwar .
Their personnality will stay mostly the same and will even develop if they interact more with the international scene. Wouldn't you have dreamed a few years back to have NaDa or Boxer or July speak english and come abroad ? I dealt with them at WWI in 2008, they were already trying to speak english when they could... Savior made the whole room go CRAZY when he spoke the infamous "I will destroy everything in 2009" Well, they are the same people you admired long ago, they didn't change, they only changed games. Boxer is still a model, doing cute, well thought out strats, and is still lacking the extra something to be over 50%, NaDa is still consistent and solid as ever, July is still his old, over aggressive zerg-self....
It is different, but the same. Of course there is no Flash vs Jaedong yet. But some games are truly gooood. Though right now EVERY bw game is awesome.
I don't care about eye candy, I play wow not for wow, but for the people I play with. I grew to love SC1 progamers, I still love them in SC2. You are not required to do the same or support them in the same way of BW, everyone likes and hates what they want, just stop overbashing and being either blind (Milkis you're right on that one), or overaggressive/elitist. (not about you Sawamura, just in general, and same between SC1 or SC2 gamers actually)
Brood War is the best game in my opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that sooner or later, it WILL die. Be it from the lack of new blood (3 players in one year won't be enough, I'm sorry...), the sponsors going away, the teams closing, the TV channels closing, etc... The only thing I wish is for the players I love not to be left in the cold, and I'd rather they switch to a lesser game and still being able to see them than stopping everything altogether.
Those of you who don't want to watch sc2, well, just don't. But don't be so blind about the state of SC1 right now. It will never be what it once was. The games are still awesome, every day of starcraft, but there might not be a lot of those days left, sadly. Be it in April or next year, doesn't change anything.
. . Btw, I still don't understand how HoN or LoL can get so many people to watch :s I can't catch the competitive level of those games, and viewership friendliness they have...like WoW, it's kind of a mess...team games are hard to show correctly, since there's so many things happening at once...CS had no spells, nothing, and it was hard for an unexperienced viewer to understand the positioning of 10 players. SC, at least there's only 2 people playing and they can only do so much at once. And yet, these are not multidimensional enough for me. Only control of one single unit, and use of spells... :/ Sigh. Well... if they like it... (note I didn't say it's shit, just that I don't understand and it's not my type of game...)
CS1.6, Q3, and SC forever <3 And SC > the others cause they actually change the maps often ! the 154876589523 game on de_train, tourney4 or Lost Temple (W3) gets really boring... And don't get me started on LoL or DotA maps...
A question for quasi-pro or wanna be pros, would it be possible for someone to play both bw and sc2 at a good level ? Like Moon tried to do with sc2 and w3 or is it impossible
Thanks for sharing the info, OP. From what I understand it seems that KeSPA is not wanting to go all-in right away, this is a good decision in my book.
Zergbong mentions that KeSPA teams are interested in the lowest rung of sc2 talent, the players who have not made a name for themselves, to get them cheap and train them on their own (this is good for BW, as it means much less money will be spent on sc2 right away).
I love that.
By the way, It's very unfortunate that this thread turned into garbage. Comparing BW to Sc2 is pointless and unneeded. Its only purpose is to show the interlocutors' ignorance.
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
Oh come on, the topic of this thread is that maybe kespa might drop broodwar. We are just discussing the topic, ie the pros and cons of kespa switching to scII and therefore the pros and cons of bw and scII. Sorry for contributing...
No, the thread is about incorporating SC2 by grooming new players.
Incorporating SC2 does not mean switching BW players.
People need to stop overthinking and overreacting. KeSPA is not just BW teams. Under KeSPA, SC2 success does not need killing BW. BW infrastructure can help grooming SC2 players. SC2 audience can bring fresh air to BW scene. Why have one successful league when you can have two?
On January 24 2012 07:55 bearbuddy wrote: My question is-- why would sponsors that are korean based companies want to transition into a game that is internationally popular but not so much in Korea? I didn't know anything about any company (except for Samsung) before coming to TL.
transferring to the international market would obviously be a good idea for any company..
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Everything else being equal, a team game is always more popular than individual game though. ( yes i know, in starcraft, teams have crucial role with practice and strategies and what not but in essence the game is still 1v1). The same way football/basketball is much more popular than tennis/track/swimming etc. It's always fun to see interactions and even conflicts between teammates. In this sense, I don't really think you can compare LoL and SC2.
Also, it is sad that in BW and SC2, the majority of the viewers don't really play anymore. Heck, even TL staff don't play SC2 anymore ( they play LoL and Dota more as far as i can see) and reddit starcraft are full of people who do not even own the game despite being one of the most active subreddits. That makes it so hard to attract new bloods to the game a few years in. How can you tell someone that the game is fun and worth following when you don't even play the game anymore.
I have to disagree. Professional sports (basketball, football, baseball, etc.) revenue are largely driven by people who don't play the games in question. If e-sports is designed to be enjoyed mostly by people who are still currently playing, then it's not going to form a lasting audience.
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
Oh come on, the topic of this thread is that maybe kespa might drop broodwar. We are just discussing the topic, ie the pros and cons of kespa switching to scII and therefore the pros and cons of bw and scII. Sorry for contributing...
No, the thread is about incorporating SC2 by grooming new players.
Incorporating SC2 does not mean switching BW players.
People need to stop overthinking and overreacting. KeSPA is not just BW teams. Under KeSPA, SC2 success does not need killing BW. BW infrastructure can help grooming SC2 players. SC2 audience can bring fresh air to BW scene. Why have one successful league when you can have two?
Actually I believe they want rookies to
1) groom them, as you said 2) gain time on the training of existing BW players, by being up to date with strategies, timings etc, not to start from scratch.
Meh, if there aren't BW matches the scene dies for me. It would be the same as if they just stopped playing. Luckily I have acquired enough hobbies not to miss pro-gaming.
On January 25 2012 01:50 Eiaco wrote: Its wierd how the BW people are constantly discussing BW vs SC2 whilst the SC2 people have more important things to discuss. Serioulsly, if you enjoy BW, play it and watch it. If you like SC2 play it and watch it. If you like both then do both. If you hate both then fuck off away from me.
Oh come on, the topic of this thread is that maybe kespa might drop broodwar. We are just discussing the topic, ie the pros and cons of kespa switching to scII and therefore the pros and cons of bw and scII. Sorry for contributing...
No, the thread is about incorporating SC2 by grooming new players.
Incorporating SC2 does not mean switching BW players.
People need to stop overthinking and overreacting. KeSPA is not just BW teams. Under KeSPA, SC2 success does not need killing BW. BW infrastructure can help grooming SC2 players. SC2 audience can bring fresh air to BW scene. Why have one successful league when you can have two?
and think about it this way, if team 8 trains the best SC2 players, it can attract international sponsors that BW ALREADY attracts but now SC2 makes it lucrative enough for the companies to sponsor a whole team.
Coca-Cola Pepsi Intel
all have shown interest in both sc2 and BW, and if team 8 fields a good team for SC2 they can get a sponsor for their BW team as well, which means a very large amount of stability and permanence to proleague.
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
Popularity isnt the issue. Its game design. BW is far and away superior than SC2. The reason SC2 is popular is because its new with good graphics and its easy to play. Its different because when Blizzard release BW it made Starcraft better. Now with SC2 already being flamed for not being well designed (mostly by old school bw players), bliz is releasing an expansion that actually makes the game look worse. It looks more and more like C&C Tiberium Sun mixed with Transformers with a sprinkling of Starcraft lore to keep the Starcraft fans happy.
edit: I walked away and thought of what really upsets me about the game more than battle hellions and warhounds, and thats the lack of LAN and no cross server play. I had friends that I could enjoy BW with from all over the planet after buying the game one time. I could also have all my friends come over (bringing pizza and soda too ) to my house and LAN for hours on hours. I didnt have to have an internet connection to enjoy a game with my friends in my room.
But I still want to be optimistic about SC2. So my opinion of what it needs:
1) get Dustin out 2) focus on what made BW the best rts ever made, and one of the best games ever made. 3) value more input from the fans who are not band wagoners who jump from new game to new game. Get insight on game features from people who care about the long term life of the game. 4) allow cross region play and consider some form of offline play.
On January 24 2012 21:21 white_horse wrote: Why the SC2 community thinks that BW teams switching to SC2 is just a matter of time is beyond me. Why would kespa keep the move secret from all the current teams and then suddenly screw everyone by announcing the supposed switch this april?
And SC2 fans keep suggesting that their scene is going to become so much better when all the A-class players and TBLS switch over, which is hilarious. Do you really think that the current generation of players will just shift places to SC2 and keep everything from rivalries to relative skill levels the same? More importantly, wishing that BW players will switch over to make the SC2 scene better implies that your agreeing that SC2 is currently in a terrible form without any outstanding SC2 player to make it more exciting then stupid death balls rolling around onscreen.
Just wanted to say I like this post. First paragraph makes so much sense. Why indeed. Second paragraph is just an elephant.
On January 24 2012 09:01 fabiano wrote: I wrote, deleted, rewrote, redeleted and wrote again this post again trying to keep it as little SC2 bashing as possible.
For me, SC2 is horrible. It is a really good game if you compare to CnC and it is fun to play casually, but for someone who has been playing BW, watching competitive SC2 is awful, disgusting and I found myself facepalming at each new feature they added/removed from the game. It is enraging.
But it is ok. I just stopped playing it, stopped following it and forgot about it, except the fact that I flushed US$60 down the toilet. I still have BW to play and to watch and everything is kind of okay, even if they ADD SC2 to Proleague its okay, I might even check a game someday to see if I change my mind.
Now, if KeSPA slowly replace BW with SC2 then its just over. In my eyes, the era of the competitive eSports sinks with BW.
We then will be hostages of Browder's 'creative mind'.
gg
That's also, what I think, I played it a little, didn't like it, and ignored the scene since I still got my BW and TL lets me hide the SC2 sections <3
Also, I want to add that forcing BW players to switch is almost insulting for them. It's exactly like asking Formula 1 players to go compete in karting for whatever reason. "Oh you guys were pretty good at that, so it should be easy for you to switch". Sure it is easy. Will players enjoy it ? A few of them may, after they won a GSL ezpz. Most of them won't. Ask Midas for example. He preferred to retire than switching to SC2.
"After playing SC2, I could not believe such an easy game existed" -Midas
Oh and fabiano, you should have put more '''''''''' around 'creative mind'.
According to this guy, LOL is going to be in Proleague. Starts at 9:10 I don't know how legitimate this guy is since i don't follow LOL though, just saw it while browsing Reddit. If it's true though it could explain the PC upgrades, etc.
According to this guy, LOL is going to be in Proleague. Starts at 9:10 I don't know how legitimate this guy is since i don't follow LOL though, just saw it while browsing Reddit. If it's true though it could explain the PC upgrades, etc.
Are you saying BW pros could start practising LoL ? Can you imagine jaedong playing LoL? I don't, jesus, that would be like THE worst thing on the world.
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
Poor you. Reddit SC2 has killed your soul. I'll see if i can find you something warm and fluffy.
Haha, won't deny that i lost a lot of interest in esports in general after that incident.
But BW scene switching to SC2 isn't really a "rumor" from what I know :S
How can you be sure? And can you give us anymore details, especially whether you're referring to entire teams? The OP and others seem to think that we're only talking about C-teamers practically, and maybe some B-teamers who actually do play BW pretty well, but not many.
I will be excited either way. Because former BW players have been so successful in SC2, many SC2 fans respect the top BW players like Jaedong even though they don't watch them. Even if players of that top caliber don't switch to SC2, it'll be cool to see SC2 players playing in the same practice house and environment as Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc. Maybe the same practice environments that produced those players can produce some excellent SC2 players.
Also maybe it would give SC2 more legitimacy in KR if BW teams had SC2 teams? Obviously it would help a ton if big names switched to SC2, but I still don't believe that yet.
I wrote more than enough about this subject. I'm sure you can find at least a few posts where I talk about it o.o
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
LOL is a more likely addition to the pro scene. It's just got such monumentally huge popularity, for the moment at least. It wouldn't constitute a switch for current gamers, I don't think we need to worry about that.
On January 24 2012 21:21 white_horse wrote: Why the SC2 community thinks that BW teams switching to SC2 is just a matter of time is beyond me. Why would kespa keep the move secret from all the current teams and then suddenly screw everyone by announcing the supposed switch this april?
What makes you think that the rumored plan is being kept secret from the current teams? The notion that KeSPA, an organization composed of proteam sponsors, could somehow keep secrets from itself doesn't even make sense.
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
Poor you. Reddit SC2 has killed your soul. I'll see if i can find you something warm and fluffy.
Haha, won't deny that i lost a lot of interest in esports in general after that incident.
But BW scene switching to SC2 isn't really a "rumor" from what I know :S
How can you be sure? And can you give us anymore details, especially whether you're referring to entire teams? The OP and others seem to think that we're only talking about C-teamers practically, and maybe some B-teamers who actually do play BW pretty well, but not many.
I will be excited either way. Because former BW players have been so successful in SC2, many SC2 fans respect the top BW players like Jaedong even though they don't watch them. Even if players of that top caliber don't switch to SC2, it'll be cool to see SC2 players playing in the same practice house and environment as Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc. Maybe the same practice environments that produced those players can produce some excellent SC2 players.
Also maybe it would give SC2 more legitimacy in KR if BW teams had SC2 teams? Obviously it would help a ton if big names switched to SC2, but I still don't believe that yet.
I wrote more than enough about this subject. I'm sure you can find at least a few posts where I talk about it o.o
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
Poor you. Reddit SC2 has killed your soul. I'll see if i can find you something warm and fluffy.
Haha, won't deny that i lost a lot of interest in esports in general after that incident.
But BW scene switching to SC2 isn't really a "rumor" from what I know :S
How can you be sure? And can you give us anymore details, especially whether you're referring to entire teams? The OP and others seem to think that we're only talking about C-teamers practically, and maybe some B-teamers who actually do play BW pretty well, but not many.
I will be excited either way. Because former BW players have been so successful in SC2, many SC2 fans respect the top BW players like Jaedong even though they don't watch them. Even if players of that top caliber don't switch to SC2, it'll be cool to see SC2 players playing in the same practice house and environment as Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc. Maybe the same practice environments that produced those players can produce some excellent SC2 players.
Also maybe it would give SC2 more legitimacy in KR if BW teams had SC2 teams? Obviously it would help a ton if big names switched to SC2, but I still don't believe that yet.
I wrote more than enough about this subject. I'm sure you can find at least a few posts where I talk about it o.o
I drift in and out of in the know about esports drama, but damn dude. Glad to see you're still hangin around these parts.
Eventually bw will dwindle away and sc2 will take over. In my opinion the sooner the better, but its going to happen. The best thing to do is not be so resistant and help support the scene.
On January 25 2012 04:04 FatkiddsLag wrote: Eventually bw will dwindle away and sc2 will take over. In my opinion the sooner the better, but its going to happen. The best thing to do is not be so resistant and help support the scene.
It's times like these that we must remember not everyone is as blessed as we are. Some people know nothing of the greatness that is modern Broodwar and its players such TBLS and Fantasy, Bogus, JangBi, ZerO, SK, etc., and we should pity these people. FatkiddsLag, do you want our help? We can link you some of the greatest VOD's of all time (or modern time) if you like. Just say the word, we are here for you.
Just read through the thread, and I'm really amazed by two things.
1. Denial. It's not a secret to anyone now that the BW teams are going to switch at some point, but it looks like 90% people having posted here are in total denial.
2. Hate towards SC2 (which explains the denial). I don't get it, everytime there is a thread related to both BW and SC2, there is a huge hate from the BW people towards SC2. I personnally like both games, and even if SC2 is obviously not as mechanically hard to play, I like watching it. Even if some people don't like it, they can just respect it, and stop the ridiculous elitism.
EDIT: just looking at people's quotes/signatures proves a really weird hate. It's not that people are obsessed by BW, they are obsessed by hating SC2
1Eris1 : "I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists." -Midas
Ideas: BW is the only esport. gogo STX/Bogus/Calm/Jaedong/Kal
fabiano: The biggest mistake of Starcraft 2 is to be named after the greatest of all games: Starcraft: Broodwar
blubbdavid:A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD ¦¦ ESPHURRRDS != Starcraft
On January 25 2012 02:46 shalafi wrote: Meh, if there aren't BW matches the scene dies for me. It would be the same as if they just stopped playing. Luckily I have acquired enough hobbies not to miss pro-gaming.
Sadly, it's the same for me. E-sports, for all its growth, hasn't really matured at all. It's still a thing for kids. As BW slows down, I'm steadily outgrowing the entire e-sports scene and moving back to watching more traditional sports. Most of my posts in the last few months here in TL are in the NFL and NBA threads.
Everybody calm down. Even if an SC2 proleague is introduced, that doesn't mean that this has that many negative effects on BW. Given that the league would draw a lot of foreign fiewers, it could also help to raise awareness of BW in the foreign scene, thus bringing new players/fans to the scene. Also i think that OGN's extremely impressive production could teach the current SC2 leagues a thing or two. Also (as already stated), it's likely that only the b-teamers (that get no exposure anyways) will switch. Don't be too negative, we will see how this turns out
On January 24 2012 22:27 Milkis wrote: I really don't understand the level of denial in this thread
Poor you. Reddit SC2 has killed your soul. I'll see if i can find you something warm and fluffy.
Haha, won't deny that i lost a lot of interest in esports in general after that incident.
But BW scene switching to SC2 isn't really a "rumor" from what I know :S
How can you be sure? And can you give us anymore details, especially whether you're referring to entire teams? The OP and others seem to think that we're only talking about C-teamers practically, and maybe some B-teamers who actually do play BW pretty well, but not many.
I will be excited either way. Because former BW players have been so successful in SC2, many SC2 fans respect the top BW players like Jaedong even though they don't watch them. Even if players of that top caliber don't switch to SC2, it'll be cool to see SC2 players playing in the same practice house and environment as Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc. Maybe the same practice environments that produced those players can produce some excellent SC2 players.
Also maybe it would give SC2 more legitimacy in KR if BW teams had SC2 teams? Obviously it would help a ton if big names switched to SC2, but I still don't believe that yet.
I wrote more than enough about this subject. I'm sure you can find at least a few posts where I talk about it o.o
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
I love NBA and real football (played with the foot) , e-sports are another thing but SC1/SC2 are on another league. Good SC2 matches are great to watch , LOL gets viewers but its a borefest and WC3 is pretty much dead. FPS are also not fun to watch for me.
Hots will make SC2 much better and blizzard may even introduce some kind of lan mode , the game is faster and much more appealing to masses than SC1 so if BW switches to SC2 it will be great for the game , SC2 is not so easy as some say and i really think that it requires as much skill as bw its just that some people dont really like changes, but so many things in the world change everyday ( laws and tech ) .
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
Popularity isnt the issue. Its game design. BW is far and away superior than SC2. The reason SC2 is popular is because its new with good graphics and its easy to play. Its different because when Blizzard release BW it made Starcraft better. Now with SC2 already being flamed for not being well designed (mostly by old school bw players), bliz is releasing an expansion that actually makes the game look worse. It looks more and more like C&C Tiberium Sun mixed with Transformers with a sprinkling of Starcraft lore to keep the Starcraft fans happy.
edit: I walked away and thought of what really upsets me about the game more than battle hellions and warhounds, and thats the lack of LAN and no cross server play. I had friends that I could enjoy BW with from all over the planet after buying the game one time. I could also have all my friends come over (bringing pizza and soda too ) to my house and LAN for hours on hours. I didnt have to have an internet connection to enjoy a game with my friends in my room.
But I still want to be optimistic about SC2. So my opinion of what it needs:
1) get Dustin out 2) focus on what made BW the best rts ever made, and one of the best games ever made. 3) value more input from the fans who are not band wagoners who jump from new game to new game. Get insight on game features from people who care about the long term life of the game. 4) allow cross region play and consider some form of offline play.
The older higher ups of Blizzard have most left now, after SC2 was published and is having, in their eyes, very good success. So Dustin will probably stick around for very long. I do think he tries very hard to honor BW, but he just isn't up to the level of the original Blizzard game designers, who basically created [a of part of] the PC gaming industry from scratch.
If you look at HotS additions, they are mostly trying to address the "SC2 is inferior to BW" claims. Just look at the new units:
A- Terran has basically what they think is a spidermine now, which should restore BW's "Terran map control" (oc it wont). The Battle Helion/Warhound are just a way to give Terran a "Mech Play" route, similar to BW's, in Blizzard's on view. B- Zerg has gained the Viper, which is a remake of the defiler, with an inferior Dark Swarm ability. The Swarm Host is just a shitty Lurker replacement.
So they're trying to fix it, but they just lack the talent to get it right imo.
It's sad that people would rather see BW die than SC2 prosper. BW and SC2 scenes need to start working together, or soon enough there won't be any of them. MMO and MOBA games will eventually take over if the scene remains separated.
On January 25 2012 05:12 HaFnium wrote: Hm.. Lock the thread? It becoming SC2 Vs BW thread with all the SC2 ppl advertising how good their game is.
Edit: Don't really think there is any point disucssing the rumour, time will tell.
It didn't help that all the BW fans bashed SC2 to high heaven early on in this thread....
Well this is the BW forum how do u think ppl will react. Not to mention some SC2 dudes come here to bash BW. I would expect ppl bashing BW when i go to sc2 boards (although tbh i hid the forum and never go there lol) Anyways this thread is really meaningless wont post now
On January 24 2012 20:11 TrainSamurai wrote: Nice. Get ready for more Flash walk outs.
Hopefully kespa plans to run sc2 seperate from BW + Show Spoiler +
Do sc2 fans not realise that when they say "give it more time" they're essentially saying "our game sucks atm"
That's the idea, things need time to grow and mature - why would SC2 be any different? Broodwar didn't start out super popular, it grew to be that popular.
Popularity isnt the issue. Its game design. BW is far and away superior than SC2. The reason SC2 is popular is because its new with good graphics and its easy to play. Its different because when Blizzard release BW it made Starcraft better. Now with SC2 already being flamed for not being well designed (mostly by old school bw players), bliz is releasing an expansion that actually makes the game look worse. It looks more and more like C&C Tiberium Sun mixed with Transformers with a sprinkling of Starcraft lore to keep the Starcraft fans happy.
edit: I walked away and thought of what really upsets me about the game more than battle hellions and warhounds, and thats the lack of LAN and no cross server play. I had friends that I could enjoy BW with from all over the planet after buying the game one time. I could also have all my friends come over (bringing pizza and soda too ) to my house and LAN for hours on hours. I didnt have to have an internet connection to enjoy a game with my friends in my room.
But I still want to be optimistic about SC2. So my opinion of what it needs:
1) get Dustin out 2) focus on what made BW the best rts ever made, and one of the best games ever made. 3) value more input from the fans who are not band wagoners who jump from new game to new game. Get insight on game features from people who care about the long term life of the game. 4) allow cross region play and consider some form of offline play.
The older higher ups of Blizzard have most left now, after SC2 was published and is having, in their eyes, very good success. So Dustin will probably stick around for very long. I do think he tries very hard to honor BW, but he just isn't up to the level of the original Blizzard game designers, who basically created [a of part of] the PC gaming industry from scratch.
If you look at HotS additions, they are mostly trying to address the "SC2 is inferior to BW". Just look at the new units:
A- Terran has basically what they think is a spidermine now, which should restore BW's "Terran map control" (oc it wont). The Battle Helion/Warhound are just a way to give Terran a "Mech Play" route, similar to BW's, in Blizzard's on view. B- Zerg has gained the Viper, which is a remake of the defiler, with an inferior Dark Swarm ability. The Swarm Host is just a shitty Lurker replacement.
So they're trying to fix it, but they just lack the talent to get it right imo.
Hey man, don't forget the new cool abilitys they introduced at Blizzcon! Viper also has the "GET OVER HERE!"-hook from Scorpion in Mortal Kombat, Banelings can MOVE underground while burrowed, you can actually upgrade Hydra speed at hive tech(!) AND Ultralisk can upgrade Charge and do some underground charge attack you would expect from some strenght hero in DotA/HoN. Oh yeah, you can actually build a assimilator in your opponents base and turn it into a cannon or something like that.
It's like a mix of Starcraft, wc3, some MOBA game and C&C Red Alert 2 lol.
On January 25 2012 04:52 Odoakar wrote: It's sad that people would rather see BW die than SC2 prosper. BW and SC2 scenes need to start working together, or soon enough there won't be any of them. MMO and MOBA games will eventually take over if the scene remains separated.
+1. Sadly, the ensulting voices always seem to be much louder than the voices of reason.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
On January 25 2012 05:34 Klonere wrote: Wow so people would have their hero's play LoL over SC2?
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
I really don't understand how wanting someone to play a game I like over a game I find boring is depressing.
At least say you'd like them to play DoTA2 (which I love playing and watching). LoL is worse than SC2 in terms of removing competitive, skill based design elements from the game it is based on.
On January 25 2012 04:20 SolidMustard wrote: Just read through the thread, and I'm really amazed by two things.
1. Denial. It's not a secret to anyone now that the BW teams are going to switch at some point, but it looks like 90% people having posted here are in total denial.
2. Hate towards SC2 (which explains the denial). I don't get it, everytime there is a thread related to both BW and SC2, there is a huge hate from the BW people towards SC2. I personnally like both games, and even if SC2 is obviously not as mechanically hard to play, I like watching it. Even if some people don't like it, they can just respect it, and stop the ridiculous elitism.
What is no secret is that KeSPA is going to expand to SC2. Expanding to SC2, however, does not mean killing BW in the process, which is what SC2 people coming to BW forums like to talk about.
You are the one with the destructive mentality that for one to succeed the other has to fail. We just think that SC2 is not good enough. Thinking that it will eventually be good enough is no guarantee that it will be. Putting your future on something that has yet to mature is a recipe for disaster.
Regardless of how vocal is the dislike of SC2s current state, its success or failure is not relevant to our enjoyment of BW. Compare that to "I can't wait for Flash to switch".
I also can enjoy SC2 streams. I just take it with the point of view that its on a loosely related scene, but separate, from BW.
On January 25 2012 04:04 FatkiddsLag wrote: Eventually bw will dwindle away and sc2 will take over. In my opinion the sooner the better, but its going to happen. The best thing to do is not be so resistant and help support the scene.
What scene? eSports or SC2? eSports is more than SC2. How is BW exclusive to "support the scene"?
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
On January 25 2012 05:34 Klonere wrote: Wow so people would have their hero's play LoL over SC2?
I really don't understand how wanting someone to play a game I like over a game I find boring is depressing.
At least say you'd like them to play DoTA2 (which I love playing and watching). LoL is worse than SC2 in terms of removing competitive, skill based design elements from the game it is based on.
I really don't like LoL D:
Your loss. If they end up playing something other than BW, I'd at least like them to make a lot of money while doing it, and LoL seems to be really booming these days. I wouldn't mind DOTA 2 either, as long as it's not as flavour of the month.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
I'd rather see them play HoN and spam taunts and macros on every kill. Flash's could be six glowing gold medals.
I really don't understand how wanting someone to play a game I like over a game I find boring is depressing.
It is depressing because TBLS would without any doubt revolutionize SC2 gameplay and set a whole new standard in mechanics + micro. LoL is fun to play, but i doubt they would revolutionize anything because of the way the game is built up. If they can't stay in BW (which would be the optimum obviously), they should at least stick with competitive RTS in my eyes.
LoL has alot of things to talk about at the beginning of the game. Like what champions were picked, their abilities, group composition, bans, strats and a bunch more things during the game as well. And the casters for LoL are very knowledgable about the game and always have something to say.
Casters in Starcraft 2 dont really know anything at all because theyre all copper leaguers and thats why they are always twiddling their thumbs trying to come up with things to talk about that arent even relevant to what youre watching. Its stupid
On January 25 2012 05:51 1sz2sz3sz wrote: Casters in Starcraft 2 dont really know anything at all because theyre all copper leaguers and thats why they are always twiddling their thumbs trying to come up with things to talk about that arent even relevant to what youre watching. Its stupid
Artosis/Day9/Apollo are all Masters. Of course there are "bad" casters, but don't tell me that LoL doesn't have those, too.
I dunno I find it slightly hypocritical of people to be like "Yeah I'd watch LoL over SC2". I know its a lot to do with personal preference but LoL really is a ton worse than SC2 in terms of dumbing down the game in order to cater to casuals, it has enraged the hardcore crowd of the legacy game (DoTA) maybe even more than SC2 has enraged some people here. If you are criticizing games for bad design choices, poor units, being boring etc, saying "Yeah SC2 is fucking broken as shit, LoL NOW there is a well-designed competitive game!" is a borderline comical statement.
EDIT: I am personally quite depressed at the decline of BW in Korea. It is something totally unique and I kind of emphasize with the MilIks stance that BW was the only true ESPORT in that it truly became part of a nations culture and attracted many people who may not have played it, supported an industry that brought us revolutionary production values, a year-long sponsored team-league that was truly like a real sports league like the English Premier League in soccer or the American and National Leagues in baseball. I don't think SC2 is the answer in any shape or form, it is simply not popular enough in Korea and I will concede, while it is a fine competitive game, it is still quite flawed (mainly with regards to the Protoss race).
I really don't understand how wanting someone to play a game I like over a game I find boring is depressing.
It is depressing because TBLS would without any doubt revolutionize SC2 gameplay and set a whole new standard in mechanics + micro.
I'll never understand this assumption.
Anyway, seems like it has turned into the usual sc2 vs bw, with the same circle arguments invented more to counter the other camp opinion than to be reasonnable. As for the transition, it's going to happen, I've "known" (I don't have any insider info, which seems to be the way korean esport, and even esport as a whole work, sad as hell... anyway. It's just an educated guess let's say) that for a month or so, and I've been sad as hell. The only thing that can help bw are the problem that would be caused by a fusion of the two scenes. I therefore hope for more Kespa/Gom/blizzad's stupidity, but alas, that might have already been solved
But anyway, I'll take every bit of pro bw left, I hope we'll have at least one last OSL, and then, well please people won't forget the foreign scene, and witth a little bit of luck, it will eventually merge with what will remain korean one.
As for those pro future, well, I like them, they're fine people and I wish them the best, probably will check them out sometimes when I'm bored, which I already do for some sc2 people. But honestly, the future of competitive gaming is probably more LoL than SC2, and anyway it looks pretty bleak in korea. I find both game pretty terible actually, so yeah...
What hate lol? What is sc2 to deserve hate. IMHO it's too much when you say we "hate" it. Me, personally, I have attitude of not giving a f%^&.
Hate towards company that made some... ugh... suboptimal actions towards SC scene in Korea (as I see some of you have short memory)? Perfectly justified. This company, btw, didn't make and release SC:BW, it only released SC2, I'm talking about Actitvision.
If you ask personally me, I'd watch SC:BW scene for like ever. And when I stopped, I would already have children and they would watch it (so the viewer rate of it wouldn't decrease lol). I don't need sc2, in my opinion it doesn't deserve attention.
I really don't understand how wanting someone to play a game I like over a game I find boring is depressing.
It is depressing because TBLS would without any doubt revolutionize SC2 gameplay and set a whole new standard in mechanics + micro. LoL is fun to play, but i doubt they would revolutionize anything because of the way the game is built up. If they can't stay in BW (which would be the optimum obviously), they should at least stick with competitive RTS in my eyes.
I was writing a long reply to you, but halfway through I realized how off-topic I am getting. Suffice to say - I believe you use the word "revolutionize" too readily, and I believe fans are allowed to be entitled to wanting their favorite players do well financially as well as seeing the players play what the fans play themselves, if they so desire. LoL has changed a lot, it has gained entire new gamemodes, and ganktimings have been made more volatile. It's nowhere near being played optimal. Maybe TBLS is just what LoL needs to be the next big E-sport? SC2 has it's own publicity and superstars, and a lot of WC3 and BW to draw inspiration from. MOBA-s are entirely uncharted territory, and I believe that the genre still has a long way to go. And for Klonere, yes, same applies to DOTA2.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
On January 25 2012 05:34 Klonere wrote: Wow so people would have their hero's play LoL over SC2?
I really don't understand how wanting someone to play a game I like over a game I find boring is depressing.
That would be a total waste of their RTS talents.
Maybe. I would like to see them BW over anything else. Still, if they have to go, they are wasting part of their talent anyways, so why not use part of their gamesense in what would help them remain Korean superstars?
On January 25 2012 00:56 Acer1791 wrote: cant believe why so many people like lol more than sc2.. sc2 is much more competitive than lol. its clear to say bw>sc2>lol
Even us Broodwar fans can agree with this.
OGN airing a LoL tournament is killing e-sports.
Not all of us, I find LoL more fun to watch than SC2
So do I. Furthermore, I'd rather like to see JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork play LoL if they retire from playing BW. They could call themselves TBLS + 1 and own the entire LoL scene in days within switching.
On January 25 2012 05:51 1sz2sz3sz wrote: Casters in Starcraft 2 dont really know anything at all because theyre all copper leaguers and thats why they are always twiddling their thumbs trying to come up with things to talk about that arent even relevant to what youre watching. Its stupid
Artosis/Day9/Apollo are all Masters. Of course there are "bad" casters, but don't tell me that LoL doesn't have those, too.
I'm pretty sure Sayle, Nukethestars, Cholera, etc aren't playing BW at anything close to a pro level, and they're still good casters.
On January 25 2012 04:04 FatkiddsLag wrote: Eventually bw will dwindle away and sc2 will take over. In my opinion the sooner the better, but its going to happen. The best thing to do is not be so resistant and help support the scene.
This post is easy to be laughed at and really so is most of this thread, but I am compelled to tell you at least this: Most BW fans do not really care about the overall ESPORTS scene. We will maybe watch one or two videos a random other game, but it won't capture us and we certainly wouldn't watch it if we didn't watch BW. We like BW, that's what we watch, and if it's gone it's not like "oh well, SC2 is the next best thing I guess I'll watch that" it's more like "well, guess I'll remember BW and move on with my life." For lots of people the step down is too large. It is just not fun to watch other ESPORTS. I don't think the other games are going to receive any kind of surge of BW immigrants (lol) if BW died.
However, there's other things that annoy me about the idea of 'dwindling.' There seems to be a belief that things will be constant, either continually rising or continually falling. That isn't really how things work. Charts go up and down. Waves rise and taper. Good things can still happen for BW
BW has the image of a classic game right now. That's a pretty sustainable, maintainable image. Niche or not (BW was always niche), I think the scene can survive and will continue to be played at an extremely high level. I don't need everyone and my grandma to play BW, that is not my vision of ultimate success. In the same way that a novel can sell all over the world and not really be literature, BW can not be measured by monetary investment alone. If the scene in BW has trimmed some fat, the people who are only doing what is extremely popular at the moment, that doesn't mean the meat will be cut as easily. Not everyone likes Chess or Go, but Chess and Go survive because of a certain personality type that is drawn toward them and because they are deeply rooted in culture. I think it's possible for BW to become similar, at least to Koreans.
So there is nothing to do with any resistance or stubbornness. SC2 just does not offer quality content and I'm not a big enough nerd to like it just because it's a video game. I don't support things just because they're vaguely related to my interests. "Support ESPORTS" is a marketing gimmick. You should seriously just watch things you like and let whatever happens happen. Don't turn into one of those freaks that leaves 10 streams on at a time just so they will make money from ads (even tho they're not watching them lol).
On another topic: if JulyZerg and Nada and Boxer couldn't make SC2 interesting, I'm not so fond of the idea that any current top BW pros could. I think that's just kind of SC2 players hoping something will legitimize their game, but even if Grand Masters started playing Checkers that wouldn't make Checkers as interesting as Chess lol.
According to this guy, LOL is going to be in Proleague. Starts at 9:10 I don't know how legitimate this guy is since i don't follow LOL though, just saw it while browsing Reddit. If it's true though it could explain the PC upgrades, etc.
Are you saying BW pros could start practising LoL ? Can you imagine jaedong playing LoL? I don't, jesus, that would be like THE worst thing on the world.
Adding LOL to proleague doesnt mean BW players switch over -.- BW players don't play Special Forces.
On January 25 2012 05:51 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I actually find LoL more fun to watch than SC2.
LoL has alot of things to talk about at the beginning of the game. Like what champions were picked, their abilities, group composition, bans, strats and a bunch more things during the game as well. And the casters for LoL are very knowledgable about the game and always have something to say.
Casters in Starcraft 2 dont really know anything at all because theyre all copper leaguers and thats why they are always twiddling their thumbs trying to come up with things to talk about that arent even relevant to what youre watching. Its stupid
Okey, i would suggest this thread is getting overrun by trolls and worse
On January 25 2012 04:04 FatkiddsLag wrote: Eventually bw will dwindle away and sc2 will take over. In my opinion the sooner the better, but its going to happen. The best thing to do is not be so resistant and help support the scene.
This post is easy to be laughed at and really so is most of this thread, but I am compelled to tell you at least this: Most BW fans do not really care about the overall ESPORTS scene. We will maybe watch one or two videos a random other game, but it won't capture us and we certainly wouldn't watch it if we didn't watch BW. We like BW, that's what we watch, and if it's gone it's not like "oh well, SC2 is the next best thing I guess I'll watch that" it's more like "well, guess I'll remember BW and move on with my life." For lots of people the step down is too large. It is just not fun to watch other ESPORTS. I don't think the other games are going to receive any kind of surge of BW immigrants (lol) if BW died.
However, there's other things that annoy me about the idea of 'dwindling.' There seems to be a belief that things will be constant, either continually rising or continually falling. That isn't really how things work. Charts go up and down. Waves rise and taper. Good things can still happen for BW
BW has the image of a classic game right now. That's a pretty sustainable, maintainable image. Niche or not (BW was always niche), I think the scene can survive and will continue to be played at an extremely high level. I don't need everyone and my grandma to play BW, that is not my vision of ultimate success. In the same way that a novel can sell all over the world and not really be literature, BW can not be measured by monetary investment alone. If the scene in BW has trimmed some fat, the people who are only doing what is extremely popular at the moment, that doesn't mean the meat will be cut as easily. Not everyone likes Chess or Go, but Chess and Go survive because of a certain personality type that is drawn toward them and because they are deeply rooted in culture. I think it's possible for BW to become similar, at least to Koreans.
So there is nothing to do with any resistance or stubbornness. SC2 just does not offer quality content and I'm not a big enough nerd to like it just because it's a video game. I don't support things just because they're vaguely related to my interests. "Support ESPORTS" is a marketing gimmick. You should seriously just watch things you like and let whatever happens happen. Don't turn into one of those freaks that leaves 10 streams on at a time just so they will make money from ads (even tho they're not watching them lol).
On another topic: if JulyZerg and Nada and Boxer couldn't make SC2 interesting, I'm not so fond of the idea that any current top BW pros could. I think that's just kind of SC2 players hoping something will legitimize their game, but even if Grand Masters started playing Checkers that wouldn't make Checkers as interesting as Chess lol.
While I agree with most of your post (I like SC2 and I like BW but i don't like other "esport" games in terms of viewing them in tournaments), I really dislike the negative tone you have towards SC2. This is one of the things that always bothers me about some of the people who only enjoy BW. SC2 fans don't need anyone to "legitimize" the game. It is legitimate. We SC2 fans enjoy it, you don't thats fine. But no need to compare it to checkers with regards to simplicity or acting as though the SC2 scene needs BW pros to legitimize it.
I also agree the whole support esports thing is a bit of a marketing gimmick, I will support the games I like and enjoy watching competitively and I won't support the ones I dislike. However, I think its important to note that choosing not to support a game directly is different from denigrating the games (and fans thereof) which you do not enjoy.
I have no feelings one way or another with regards to BW teams entering SC2. Im sure there will be good things and bad things for both scenes to come out of it. What I do dislike is the negative attitude people need to have with regards to one game and one scene over another. I'm totally fine enjoying both games but I watch more and understand SC2 better as well as play the game. Granted I prefer SC2 myself since I know the game more but I don't feel it is right to talk down to the BW people.
Furthermore, sometimes I feel like if I was to speak negatively of BW I would be more likely to face punishment on the site over others because I don't have the same tenure and time spent on tl. Which is fine for the odd slip up here and there but when its a pervasive attitude it does bother me greatly (this isn't aimed at you Chef, its at others that I don't want to point out specifically).
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
I love how BW diehards think every SC2 player of any level is an idiot and has no idea what they are talking about.
SC2 will take over BW, whether it's a months time or 3 years time, BW will die, SC2 will have balanced out. and SC2 will be superior. Remember it's still young, and BW was in a worse state of balance and bugs when it became popular, and took years to balance.
Get used to the idea that a soon 15 year old game won't be played as much as it is now.
What I don't see right here is people HATING GAMES man i hate to work but I love dota 2, lol, sc2 and bw. In fact i would rather make money playing even hon than working xD games arent to be hated lol ....
On January 25 2012 04:14 fabiano wrote: SC2 wont have my support until they make it at least as 90% as good as BW, which might mean never.
SC2 now is about where SC1 was 2-3 years after release. Gotta be patient, G.
These types of logic are really stupid.
BW didn't have good replays, stable scene, perfect understanding of what macro, micro, eco, harass, build orders, decent maps, decent players and willing corporations to fund the scene back when BW was a year old. These factors I mentioned translate to SC2 pretty well and I fail to see why this is a problem.
People using this type of logic either think that the competition in SC2 has thus far has been farce or the game design is really flawed that the scene can only start developing when they have actual good players to develop certain 'ideas' to incorporate in the game.
On January 25 2012 07:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Welp this thread has gone to shit, the sc2 kids are leaking in...mods should close.....
To be fair, I went to the pain of making nice, long, thought-out posts, nobody cared about, but of course you would answer to the few sc2 fanboys posts and start the shit-war instead of not biting the trollbait. The fault lies within both sides.
On January 24 2012 07:48 ShadeR wrote: Cool i suppose. + Show Spoiler +
Flash is unimpressed
On January 24 2012 07:33 Woony wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
I love how BW diehards think every SC2 player of any level is an idiot and has no idea what they are talking about.
SC2 will take over BW, whether it's a months time or 3 years time, BW will die, SC2 will have balanced out. and SC2 will be superior. Remember it's still young, and BW was in a worse state of balance and bugs when it became popular, and took years to balance.
Get used to the idea that a soon 15 year old game won't be played as much as it is now.
What is wrong with you people? BW is not going to "die" and its not going to be "replaced" by SC2 or any other game. Thats like saying that Blues will die and will be replaced by Rock. No. Blues will still exist and Rock will still exist, and maybe there won't be any 24/7 Blues radio, but it doesn't just disappear.
Honestly there is this really fucked up idea that SC2 is a replacement for BW. No. Actually it is a different game. I wish that Blizzard had just named it "Spacecraft" or some shit so we didn't have to have this mentality that these games are mutually exclusive and that everyone who feels this way about one game has to feel that way about the other.
On January 24 2012 07:48 ShadeR wrote: Cool i suppose. + Show Spoiler +
Flash is unimpressed
On January 24 2012 07:33 Woony wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
I love how BW diehards think every SC2 player of any level is an idiot and has no idea what they are talking about.
SC2 will take over BW, whether it's a months time or 3 years time, BW will die, SC2 will have balanced out. and SC2 will be superior. Remember it's still young, and BW was in a worse state of balance and bugs when it became popular, and took years to balance.
Get used to the idea that a soon 15 year old game won't be played as much as it is now.
Get used to the Korean scene. SC2 didn't even have a good kick start, and the scene is shit compared to BW. Remember that in foreign scene BW was never as big as SC2 in the past and it already has taken over. Unless something happens pretty soon, SC2 will become another small game in Korea that didn't get much coverage.
And don't even bring in how 'young' it is. BW tournaments started off from a ping pong table covered in cloth, with two monitor-pc hybrids in a closed set. That's after some offline scene developed in Korea, with many offline PC Bang tournaments. With SC2, they thought that people will naturally transition over. As soon as the game got released, they started shoving it down everyone's throat.
On January 25 2012 07:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Welp this thread has gone to shit, the sc2 kids are leaking in...mods should close.....
Well, that's what happens if you react to troll posts. And not all SC2 people that posted here brought negative context, so stop generalizing please. It isn't like you can wage a war if the other side doesn't react.
On January 24 2012 07:48 ShadeR wrote: Cool i suppose. + Show Spoiler +
Flash is unimpressed
On January 24 2012 07:33 Woony wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
I love how BW diehards think every SC2 player of any level is an idiot and has no idea what they are talking about.
SC2 will take over BW, whether it's a months time or 3 years time, BW will die, SC2 will have balanced out. and SC2 will be superior. Remember it's still young, and BW was in a worse state of balance and bugs when it became popular, and took years to balance.
Get used to the idea that a soon 15 year old game won't be played as much as it is now.
What is wrong with you people? BW is not going to "die" and its not going to be "replaced" by SC2 or any other game. Thats like saying that Blues will die and will be replaced by Rock. No. Blues will still exist and Rock will still exist, and maybe there won't be any 24/7 Blues radio, but it doesn't just disappear.
Honestly there is this really fucked up idea that SC2 is a replacement for BW. No. Actually it is a different game. I wish that Blizzard had just named it "Spacecraft" or some shit so we didn't have to have this mentality that these games are mutually exclusive and that everyone who feels this way about one game has to feel that way about the other.
Let me rephrase, I used "die" loosely.
While there will still be BW fans and players, the SC2 scene will grow much faster as it has a much larger fanbase, and those fans bring in friends and family, expanding it even faster. There are much fewer additions to the BW scene, I dabble in it myself starting recently, but I do not follow it, because as a SC2 player it is easier to relate to. WHat I mean by "die" is not that there will never be competitions ever again, I meant it will be drowned out compared to SC2 in the next few years when the scene has gotten larger.
And yes, BW and SC2 is like comparing apples and oranges.\
Edit: point of this is, BW pros, down the road, may switch to SC2 if the prize pools have gotten larger, more sponsors for SC2 teams, etc.
So much hate in this thread. And almost no content is on topic, including this.
EDIT: The bw/sc2-discussion is getting really really old. I sincerely hope that BW wont die, and i dont even see it as a possibility. And thats regardless of the players skills, which game is better or who is the current #1 zerg in the world.
On January 24 2012 07:27 PrinceXizor wrote: 3. Zergbong, the current best zerg in SC2
Huh? Who made this claim? If there is a "current best" then it would be Nestea. Zergbong isn't even a second (Losira/Leanock/Dongraegu are).
I lol'd pretty hard. That's like saying Piratezerg is nowhere near the level of Jaedong, lol.
MoustacheZerg > PirateZerg >>>>> Jaedong imo.
edit: Ninja'd T_T
While there will still be BW fans and players, the SC2 scene will grow much faster as it has a much larger fanbase, and those fans bring in friends and family, expanding it even faster. There are much fewer additions to the BW scene, I dabble in it myself starting recently, but I do not follow it, because as a SC2 player it is easier to relate to. WHat I mean by "die" is not that there will never be competitions ever again, I meant it will be drowned out compared to SC2 in the next few years when the scene has gotten larger.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
On January 25 2012 07:33 Dental Floss wrote: I just can't believe that OZsucksballswithoutme didn't get picked up by another team of OZ disbanded.
Yep. But don't be sad... he's out there, waiting for the next OSL. When his time comes, he shall show eveyone why Oz would have sucked balls without him. Just believe.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
And you know this how? Are you someone researching the trends of Korean attitude at the moment?
SC2 has been out for close to two years now, and the level of fandom in Korea hasn't really varied all too much. You can't compare it to BW's linear growth, because SC2 is building off of that, and BW was already plateaued/shrunk.
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
edit: sonofabitch i used my 4000 post arguing over something stupid
I guess my frustration is people get caught up in the proscene more than the game itself. The flashy lights, the environment and players of BW are MUCH more interesting than SC2 currently, I really do believe that. But SC2 has so much more potential than BW has now. "bw best gaem" is just so wrong when a portion of the skill required to play the game is to control inefficient production, and some units like the dragoon.
Edit:
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
please don't scare me, can't we all just be friends and hate LoL together?
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
At this rate, no. It didn't even get a good kick start. Don't even argue that it needs more time, because BW is still alive and well. Slowly declining, but still has much more fans compared to SC2.
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. At this rate, SC2 is going to die faster than BW in Korea.
If you've never been to Korea and saw everything first hand, let me sum it up:
In 2 months while I was in Korea, I saw couple of high school students talking about PL and BW in general. No one talked about SC2.
Walk into PC Bang, everyone plays BW and there's nobody playing SC2.
SC2's studio is located so far away from center of Seoul and I didn't bother going, but I did talk to some people and heard stories. Small studio, not many fans compared to PL, a team league that happens every week.
SC2 has no major sponsors, BW has them. And at this rate, unless BW teams buy SC2 teams, nothing's going to change in Korea at least.
EDIT: To the potential problem: It does have potential, but Blizzard butchered everything and it had an awful start in Korea. Unless they do something about it, it's going to stay like this for a long time.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
I don't like LoL that much, but this is pretty much true at the moment.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
Stop assuming the Korean gaming culture is the same as the international one. Blizzard's failure to appeal the Korean scene is a result of not acknowledging the local culture. You just cannot use the foreign SC2 scene as a precedence.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
At this rate, no. It didn't even get a good kick start. Don't even argue that it needs more time, because BW is still alive and well. Slowly declining, but still has much more fans compared to SC2.
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. At this rate, SC2 is going to die faster than BW in Korea.
If you've never been to Korea and saw everything first hand, let me sum it up:
In 2 months while I was in Korea, I saw couple of high school students talking about PL and BW in general. No one talked about SC2.
Walk into PC Bang, everyone plays BW and there's nobody playing SC2.
SC2's studio is located so far away from center of Seoul and I didn't bother going, but I did talk to some people and heard stories. Small studio, not many fans compared to PL, a team league that happens every week.
SC2 has no major sponsors, BW has them. And at this rate, unless BW teams buy SC2 teams, nothing's going to change in Korea at least.
EDIT: To the potential problem: It does have potential, but Blizzard butchered everything and it had an awful start in Korea. Unless they do something about it, it's going to stay like this for a long time.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
I don't like LoL that much, but this is pretty much true at the moment.
But how many years did it take for BW to get to it's current height? Sure SC2 had a bad START, sure ain't dead yet and sure doesn't look like it will die anytime soon in the foreigner regions.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
At this rate, no. It didn't even get a good kick start. Don't even argue that it needs more time, because BW is still alive and well. Slowly declining, but still has much more fans compared to SC2.
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. At this rate, SC2 is going to die faster than BW in Korea.
If you've never been to Korea and saw everything first hand, let me sum it up:
In 2 months while I was in Korea, I saw couple of high school students talking about PL and BW in general. No one talked about SC2.
Walk into PC Bang, everyone plays BW and there's nobody playing SC2.
SC2's studio is located so far away from center of Seoul and I didn't bother going, but I did talk to some people and heard stories. Small studio, not many fans compared to PL, a team league that happens every week.
SC2 has no major sponsors, BW has them. And at this rate, unless BW teams buy SC2 teams, nothing's going to change in Korea at least.
EDIT: To the potential problem: It does have potential, but Blizzard butchered everything and it had an awful start in Korea. Unless they do something about it, it's going to stay like this for a long time.
On January 25 2012 07:40 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 25 2012 07:35 Nightshade_ wrote:
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
I don't like LoL that much, but this is pretty much true at the moment.
But how many years did it take for BW to get to it's current height? Sure SC2 had a bad START, sure ain't dead yet and sure doesn't look like it will die anytime soon in the foreigner regions.
Stop using this bullshitish logic, please. BW, when it was the same age as SC2, didn't have the proper tools to develop certain ideas for the game and it was not as big as SC2 now when it was just starting to gaining coverage from the mainstream.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
At this rate, no. It didn't even get a good kick start. Don't even argue that it needs more time, because BW is still alive and well. Slowly declining, but still has much more fans compared to SC2.
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. At this rate, SC2 is going to die faster than BW in Korea.
If you've never been to Korea and saw everything first hand, let me sum it up:
In 2 months while I was in Korea, I saw couple of high school students talking about PL and BW in general. No one talked about SC2.
Walk into PC Bang, everyone plays BW and there's nobody playing SC2.
SC2's studio is located so far away from center of Seoul and I didn't bother going, but I did talk to some people and heard stories. Small studio, not many fans compared to PL, a team league that happens every week.
SC2 has no major sponsors, BW has them. And at this rate, unless BW teams buy SC2 teams, nothing's going to change in Korea at least.
EDIT: To the potential problem: It does have potential, but Blizzard butchered everything and it had an awful start in Korea. Unless they do something about it, it's going to stay like this for a long time.
On January 25 2012 07:40 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 25 2012 07:35 Nightshade_ wrote:
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
I don't like LoL that much, but this is pretty much true at the moment.
But how many years did it take for BW to get to it's current height? Sure SC2 had a bad START, sure ain't dead yet and sure doesn't look like it will die anytime soon in the foreigner regions.
That's the thing though, SC2 was supposed to jump right off right from the point of BW. It's not like it was just being introduced for the first time, people had been awaiting it a while, and it definetely had a lot higher expectations/support than BW did when it came out, and it also had alot more support and money to build off than BW did. But it hasn't took off. It's making a profit (I think?), but not too much, and the overall amount of playing in regards to the game hasn't really changed. (This is true for the entire world as well, except for China, where SC2 has gotten sidelined hard bu LoL)
That's the thing though, SC2 was supposed to jump right off right from the point of BW. It's not like it was just being introduced for the first time, people had been awaiting it a while, and it definetely had a lot higher expectations/support than BW did when it came out, and it also had alot more support and money to build off than BW did. But it hasn't took off. It's making a profit (I think?), but not too much, and the overall amount of playing in regards to the game hasn't really changed. (This is true for the entire world as well, except for China, where SC2 has gotten sidelined hard bu LoL)
The thing is though, Broodwar had been out for more than 10 years, the expectations were way too high for a game that well, wasn't even near the same as BW, it was entirely different. That's my belief of why it wasn't as popular on release.
On January 25 2012 07:42 supernovamaniac wrote: What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage.
I don't really want to get into an argument, but it would really help if the current korean SC2 leagues would even reach IPL production value. I'm not sure if GOMTV can afford OGN-like production. They certainly don't lack the storylines and good games anymore, but more player/team content would really help them to create a better atmosphere. I can only imagine how epic the Blizzard Cup finals would have been if the production/hype was better. Maybe partnering with the obviously richer foreign leagues would help solve that issue. We'll see. Again, I just wanted to point that out, no need to start an argument.
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
At this rate, no. It didn't even get a good kick start. Don't even argue that it needs more time, because BW is still alive and well. Slowly declining, but still has much more fans compared to SC2.
What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage. At this rate, SC2 is going to die faster than BW in Korea.
If you've never been to Korea and saw everything first hand, let me sum it up:
In 2 months while I was in Korea, I saw couple of high school students talking about PL and BW in general. No one talked about SC2.
Walk into PC Bang, everyone plays BW and there's nobody playing SC2.
SC2's studio is located so far away from center of Seoul and I didn't bother going, but I did talk to some people and heard stories. Small studio, not many fans compared to PL, a team league that happens every week.
SC2 has no major sponsors, BW has them. And at this rate, unless BW teams buy SC2 teams, nothing's going to change in Korea at least.
EDIT: To the potential problem: It does have potential, but Blizzard butchered everything and it had an awful start in Korea. Unless they do something about it, it's going to stay like this for a long time.
On January 25 2012 07:40 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 25 2012 07:35 Nightshade_ wrote:
I seriously don't know if you just smoked something. Comparing BW to SC2 in Korea is comparing a Korean culture to a video game.
Implying SC2 will not also become part of their culture in anything more than 4 years. So narrow minded. I embrace your game, embrace mine.
If any game is going to be dominant in Korea it will be LoL (vomit), considering there is far more of a growing fanbase for it than either of the SC games.
I don't like LoL that much, but this is pretty much true at the moment.
But how many years did it take for BW to get to it's current height? Sure SC2 had a bad START, sure ain't dead yet and sure doesn't look like it will die anytime soon in the foreigner regions.
Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time. (Actually a little more since BW gained little more fans in PL)
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
That's the thing though, SC2 was supposed to jump right off right from the point of BW. It's not like it was just being introduced for the first time, people had been awaiting it a while, and it definetely had a lot higher expectations/support than BW did when it came out, and it also had alot more support and money to build off than BW did. But it hasn't took off. It's making a profit (I think?), but not too much, and the overall amount of playing in regards to the game hasn't really changed. (This is true for the entire world as well, except for China, where SC2 has gotten sidelined hard bu LoL)
The thing is though, Broodwar had been out for more than 10 years, the expectations were way too high for a game that well, wasn't even near the same as BW, it was entirely different. That's my belief of why it wasn't as popular on release.
Ofcourse it's gonna be high. Why? Because Blizzard said it's going to be but This Guy realized they can't do it so they'll be catering to casuals instead.
That's the thing though, SC2 was supposed to jump right off right from the point of BW. It's not like it was just being introduced for the first time, people had been awaiting it a while, and it definetely had a lot higher expectations/support than BW did when it came out, and it also had alot more support and money to build off than BW did. But it hasn't took off. It's making a profit (I think?), but not too much, and the overall amount of playing in regards to the game hasn't really changed. (This is true for the entire world as well, except for China, where SC2 has gotten sidelined hard bu LoL)
The thing is though, Broodwar had been out for more than 10 years, the expectations were way too high for a game that well, wasn't even near the same as BW, it was entirely different. That's my belief of why it wasn't as popular on release.
Err, thats what I'm saying? SC2 hasn't lived up to it's expectations.
We can't use the "give it time arguement, BW had 10 years" though because SC2 was built off of BW's 10 years, and thus should have been delivered a lot better.
Of course Blizz might fix it, they also might also botch it and make the game completely fail. There's no gurantee as to what SC2 will be in 5 years
Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time.
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
But LoL is so boring as a spectator sport. T-T What you posted did enlighten me more to what happened at launch, as I was unaware of illegal advertising.
On January 25 2012 07:42 supernovamaniac wrote: What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage.
I don't really want to get into an argument, but it would really help if the current korean SC2 leagues would even reach IPL production value. I'm not sure if GOMTV can afford OGN-like production. They certainly don't lack the storylines and good games anymore, but more player/team content would really help them to create a better atmosphere. I can only imagine how epic the Blizzard Cup finals would have been if the production/hype was better. Maybe partnering with the obviously richer foreign leagues would help solve that issue. We'll see. Again, I just wanted to point that out, no need to start an argument.
Wow are you saying that IGN had higher production value for IPL3 than GOM for the Blizz Cup? Well maybe in terms of resolution on stream. They can't do the whole roaming reporter because its for one damn game. In every other aspect the Blizz Cup was better than IPL3; take a gander at this video breaking down all the amazing things GOM did: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=299948
SC2 will never replace BW in Korea. Ever. I think at this stage its almost a fact, the numbers quite simply are not there at the ground level, people actually playing the damn game. No matter if OGN runs an SC2 proleague and even if TBLS switches I can't see SC2 being the heir to BW in gameplay or in an ESPORTS sense for Korea. Futhermore, without the base of Korea to build SC2 on, I think foreigner SC2 will die before the last expansion is released OR will plateau by the end of 2012.
Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time.
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
But LoL is so boring as a spectator sport. T-T What you posted did enlighten me more to what happened at launch, as I was unaware of illegal advertising.
Except it's not. I personally like watching LoL. The Season 1 championships at Dreamhack last year were the first game tournament I'd ever watched, and they were a lot of fun. Korea obviously agrees with me, because LoL is becoming pretty huge.
I hope that OGN's venture into LoL does well, because if it does, it will at least convince that gaming is still a sector worth capitalizing on and investing in (as opposed to pulling an MBC and switching to Kpop). That, by itself, will help BW ^^
Current height? It took'em about the same amount of time.
If you don't know how BW started, YES the scene developed over time but it was because people liked the game. The BW scene developed because people loved the game, not because Blizzard wanted an eSports scene.
SC2, on the other hand, didn't develop a scene, got bad image in Korea for illegal advertising, PC Bangs didn't pick up the game at first due to illegal advertising and pricing problems, Blizzard-KeSPA shit just tainting the whole image etc. etc. All of this even before talking about the mechanics of the game (for those who don't like SC2 due to its mechanism). And they're still trying to shove it down everyone's throat while thinking that they can shut down BW and force everyone to switch (Their official stance at the moment is different, but Blizzard-Gom stated in the past that they want BW gone). That + the fact that GomTV is only a computer application and borrows a timeslot from a anime cable station to broadcast GSLs, with subpar production quality compared to PL/OSL.
Don't get me wrong, I play both games and want SC2 scene to grow in Korea for sake of eSports in Korea. Realistically, LoL is going to help eSports more than SC2, given that SC2 actually had a good impact in Korea.
But LoL is so boring as a spectator sport. T-T What you posted did enlighten me more to what happened at launch, as I was unaware of illegal advertising.
Except it's not. I personally like watching LoL. The Season 1 championships at Dreamhack last year were the first game tournament I'd ever watched, and they were a lot of fun. Korea obviously agrees with me, because LoL is becoming pretty huge.
I hope that OGN's venture into LoL does well, because if it does, it will at least convince that gaming is still a sector worth capitalizing on and investing in (as opposed to pulling an MBC and switching to Kpop). That, by itself, will help BW ^^
Not just BW. It will help the Korean eSports scene in general, possibly including SC2.
Well, good day TL, I've allways seen the site from outside so, this is my first post, this post is aimed to stop a little the ongoing BW vs SC2 war, as to contribute and help the community to a neutral position so the thread goes back to on-topic.
So, when you go around posts like lastest posts, and almost since the first pages is easy to see people defending positions, BW and SC2 alike. However you must remmember that you as a human being have a predominant likeness to do what you are used to do, what I mean is, you're a habit animal, as such, you get used to do or imitate things ever since you are born, from your parents, friends and such.
It's easy then to fall in the trap to think that what you're used to see and do is the correct way things should go (just because you see they actually work pretty good), in fact, you don't naturally know what a good starcraft battle is.
It is something you learn in the road of your life.
It's a mindtrap, it's you fighting against yourself without even noticing it...
It's you fighting agains your own unconscious reason, it's nonsense for it, YOU have seen how things were RIGHT, how come those things could be wrong? even if you don't feel this is happening inside your brain, you canot see your brain, you don't really know what the unconscious self is thinking. But it's easy to know what he's thinking:
THIS was good and work, THAT looks not so good and it's strange, THAT must not work.
Even if you try to like other thing, your brain does not accept it, your brain does what he wants to do, what he thinks is better for you, even if you try to overcome yourself, you have an obstacle, you, even if you don't feel so.
'What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?'
Someday you learn to play BW, you learn, and get used to how it is, and you learn to apreciate the good things about it, you learn to apreciate the tournaments because you feel when you see them how hard it is to get there, or how much practice and dedication those people have. And you get used to it, it becomes something familiar that you think is right. You end up loving it.
But the people in SC2 is in the same situation, they learn to play and to apreciate the game, the pros, the tournaments, maybe in less degree? maybe, maybe not. But they like it, they have learned to like it, and they are in the same position as the BW fans. Both of them are in the exact same position.
So it's a battle against yourself "You liar, I have this *insert reason here* that proofs that *insert game here* is better"
Do you?, have you noticed the way everyone has a reason? reason is not something as tangible as you think.
Reason is the way the brain uses to not accept his own incompetence.
For each reason there is another reason valid enought to fight against the first one, and another one to overcome the second, and so on.
'BW is more competitive because of mechanics' 'SC2 is more competitive because of a lot more new player' 'BW is more competitive because X' 'But SC2 have Y and is still young' 'But still 2 years have passed' 'But bla, bla bla.'
True is this: This is not a BW vs SC2 war, those are different games, you can do and watch the one you choose. This is a war of people unable to accept the game others choose fearing in deep inconscient that his own game is in danger.
But it's their own fault that the danger exists, accept the other game
learn to like it, learn to not hate it, overcome yourself, overcome your nature.
and grow both games, Time is the only one who can decide who lasts to the end.
On January 25 2012 07:42 supernovamaniac wrote: What SC2 needs at the moment is some mainstream coverage, as well as OGN picking up the game for better production value and more cable TV coverage.
I don't really want to get into an argument, but it would really help if the current korean SC2 leagues would even reach IPL production value. I'm not sure if GOMTV can afford OGN-like production. They certainly don't lack the storylines and good games anymore, but more player/team content would really help them to create a better atmosphere. I can only imagine how epic the Blizzard Cup finals would have been if the production/hype was better. Maybe partnering with the obviously richer foreign leagues would help solve that issue. We'll see. Again, I just wanted to point that out, no need to start an argument.
Wow are you saying that IGN had higher production value for IPL3 than GOM for the Blizz Cup? Well maybe in terms of resolution on stream. They can't do the whole roaming reporter because its for one damn game. In every other aspect the Blizz Cup was better than IPL3; take a gander at this video breaking down all the amazing things GOM did: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=299948
You're certainly right, but the GSL still lacks out-of-game content like epic player intros, hype videos and something like that (but like I said, that's only my take on the situation). IPL3 did those things better. Their amount of content has yet to be topped for me.
EDIT: PM me if you want to continue talking abou this, as I don't want to derail the thread any further (not that it isn't already a shitfest but whatever).
On January 24 2012 07:48 ShadeR wrote: Cool i suppose. + Show Spoiler +
Flash is unimpressed
On January 24 2012 07:33 Woony wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
At this point It's pretty much an open secret that every BW team is training SC2 right now. However it will probably be the 'lesser' players that switch over right from the start.
lol... is this really what people in SC2 forums think?
I love how BW diehards think every SC2 player of any level is an idiot and has no idea what they are talking about.
SC2 will take over BW, whether it's a months time or 3 years time, BW will die, SC2 will have balanced out. and SC2 will be superior. Remember it's still young, and BW was in a worse state of balance and bugs when it became popular, and took years to balance.
Get used to the idea that a soon 15 year old game won't be played as much as it is now.
this (constantly repeated) argument is giving me an aneurysm
Don't bother with arguing with sc2 fans, every single time there is an argument no sc2 fan has even bothered writing a post about why SC2 is good. They just use the defence that the current state of their game is shit and needs more time + Show Spoiler +
Thorzain vs MC was a freakin waste of my time
Just look at Dustin Bowder the guy doesn't know what the hell he is doing. He basically tells BW lovers to fuck off, he is far too petty to be a good lead designer. Heck sc2 lan despite all the lag/dropouts in tournaments. DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS?
On January 25 2012 07:55 1Eris1 wrote: Err, thats what I'm saying? SC2 hasn't lived up to it's expectations.
We can't use the "give it time arguement, BW had 10 years" though because SC2 was built off of BW's 10 years, and thus should have been delivered a lot better.
Of course Blizz might fix it, they also might also botch it and make the game completely fail. There's no gurantee as to what SC2 will be in 5 years
Trying to say that it'll take SC2 ten years to get good because it took BW ten years to get good is absurd. I don't even understand why SC2 fans make that point, because it's stupid. If you want to say SC2 is improving, look at GSL Open 3, look at the Blizzard Cup, and draw a trend line. It's a little flimsy, but at least it's not on it's face stupid.
But the argument that SC2 should have been BW quality at release date is probably just as silly. They are, after all, different games, with diffirent design philosophies. This is one of the reasons I think SC2 and BW can co-exist, because "good SC2" is starting to be a different thing then "mediocre BW" like in times past. BW is all about mechanics and control. SC2 is moving in that direction, but is becoming more about multitasking and most importantly: forcing errors.
Good BW is refined and elegant. It is scultpure. It is art. If Flash were to play a B- on ICCUP, the B-'s strategies, builds, and execution would be literally irrelevant, because Flash is sufficiently better that he doesn't need to react. It's like figure skating, but with hydralisks.
I'm not entirely sure what good SC2 is. It's messy. It's sloppy. It's dropping three places at once while attacking a fifth and flying a medivac into a clump of mutas because you're busy. It's nuking ten times and hitting his army once. It's baiting your opponent into attacking down a ramp where you have a concave. It's sloppy and ugly and fun in a professional wrestling kind of way.
In short, they are different games, with different appeals. It's fine to like one and not the other. Lots of people do. It's fine to like both. Lots of people do. It makes no sense to switch out BW for SC2 instead of just have two proleagues. The one and only reason anyone expects SC2 to replace BW is because it has "Starcraft" in the name. It's no different from assuming LoL will replace SC2 because they're both video games. They're pretty different.
On January 25 2012 07:55 1Eris1 wrote: Err, thats what I'm saying? SC2 hasn't lived up to it's expectations.
We can't use the "give it time arguement, BW had 10 years" though because SC2 was built off of BW's 10 years, and thus should have been delivered a lot better.
Of course Blizz might fix it, they also might also botch it and make the game completely fail. There's no gurantee as to what SC2 will be in 5 years
Trying to say that it'll take SC2 ten years to get good because it took BW ten years to get good is absurd. I don't even understand why SC2 fans make that point, because it's stupid. If you want to say SC2 is improving, look at GSL Open 3, look at the Blizzard Cup, and draw a trend line. It's a little flimsy, but at least it's not on it's face stupid.
But the argument that SC2 should have been BW quality at release date is probably just as silly. They are, after all, different games, with diffirent design philosophies. This is one of the reasons I think SC2 and BW can co-exist, because "good SC2" is starting to be a different thing then "mediocre BW" like in times past. BW is all about mechanics and control. SC2 is moving in that direction, but is becoming more about multitasking and most importantly: forcing errors.
Good BW is refined and elegant. It is scultpure. It is art. If Flash were to play a B- on ICCUP, the B-'s strategies, builds, and execution would be literally irrelevant, because Flash is sufficiently better that he doesn't need to react. It's like figure skating, but with hydralisks.
I'm not entirely sure what good SC2 is. It's messy. It's sloppy. It's dropping three places at once while attacking a fifth and flying a medivac into a clump of mutas because you're busy. It's nuking ten times and hitting his army once. It's baiting your opponent into attacking down a ramp where you have a concave. It's sloppy and ugly and fun in a professional wrestling kind of way.
In short, they are different games, with different appeals. It's fine to like one and not the other. Lots of people do. It's fine to like both. Lots of people do. It makes no sense to switch out BW for SC2 instead of just have two proleagues. The one and only reason anyone expects SC2 to replace BW is because it has "Starcraft" in the name. It's no different from assuming LoL will replace SC2 because they're both video games. They're pretty different.
Maybe I should have worded a little better. I didn't mean SC2 should have been as good as BW upon release, that would be ridiculous, but I definetely think it should have been considerably better. The amount of time time Blizz has had to work on it is staggering, and personally I think they dropped the ball. Hard.
Maybe they can fix it within the next few years, maybe they can't. I just don't think we should assume they will, because they haven't really shown much signs of it, despite their supposed "hard work" HOTS looked flashy, but it also looked terrible in terms of gameplay, to the point that even some of the current SC2 pros were ripping on it.
Eh whatever, I was mostly talking to the guy who said SC2 was definetely going to be the go to game in 5 years, which well it could be true, I doubt it, from the way things are looking with design and LoL.
edit: And the point about LoL was not that it was going to run the other game out of business, but that it was going to be the dominant game in the scene.
On January 25 2012 08:33 TrainSamurai wrote: Don't bother with arguing with sc2 fans, every single time there is an argument no sc2 fan has even bothered writing a post about why SC2 is good. They just use the defence that the current state of their game is shit and needs more time + Show Spoiler +
Thorzain vs MC was a freakin waste of my time
Just look at Dustin Bowder the guy doesn't know what the hell he is doing. He basically tells BW lovers to fuck off, he is far too petty to be a good lead designer. Heck sc2 lan despite all the lag/dropouts in tournaments. DO YOU REALLY WANT CHAT CHANNELS?
i like sc2 and brood war. i'd point to game 1 3 4 and 6 of Leenock vs Jjakji in the GSL november finals (only game 1 is free on gom's site though) to showcase some entertaining sc2 games, if you ignore artosis and tasteless that is.
but i don't want to start arguments, hell i want the two communities to exist without these flame wars that typically only occur when anti-fans of sc2 start posting btw, it's kind of a trend at this point yeah sc2 fans make stupid comments about how bw should move on to sc2, just ignore them half of them are trolls the rest of them their opinions don't matter.
thats why i've been silent in defending sc2. i like bw too, i don't want arguments though. i thought i'd make a thread stating that kespa is looking to move SC2 into it's own proleague, and that they look fully committed to BW as well, and i got this trash.
both are very young (16 and 17 western korean) Leenock was in the FOu BW clan before switching and i'm unsure about jjkaji i think he was a B teamer for i want to say woongjin not sure though but both tend to show very good games no matter the opponent. and the two met in a finals that was the most exciting and close finals we've have in sc2 so far, mostly the finals have been one sided or lackluster because of a definite skill difference. the games were played mid december so they are fairly recent, and sc2 has come an immensely long way since many people first gave it a chance. but yeah at least humor me and watch game 1 if you want to bash sc2, it's fine if you do, i don't give a crap what you think about the game, because i don't think either game arguing with each other over who is the best makes any sense or does any good. it's just people trying to prove to themselves they are doing the right thing.
@PrinceXizor, that was one of SC2's better series, but game 1 was so overrated. If Leenock had bothered to scout fully it would have been a pretty dull game. I think some of the later games are much better examples.
On January 24 2012 07:30 HaruHaru wrote: As long my precious BW players stay in the BW scene and there continues to be Proleague and Individual leagues, I am happy
The claim is that the second half of Proleague will be SC2. Without BW Proleague, there are no professional BW players.
Wait, what? When was this announced????
It wan't. It's people assuming there can be only one Proleague.
EPT
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