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On January 12 2012 10:58 ChinaRestaurant wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:31 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On January 12 2012 10:24 Arterial wrote:On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On January 12 2012 09:58 Mohdoo wrote:Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/11/us/video-marines-urinating/index.html?hpt=hp_t3Washington (CNN) -- A number of websites including TMZ and YouTube posted a video Wednesday showing four men dressed in U.S. Marine Corps combat gear urinating on the apparently dead bodies of three men sprawled on the ground in front of them.
One of the men says, "Have a great day, buddy." A voice asks, "You got it on the video?" to which another voice responds, "Yeah." Another jokes, "Golden, like a shower." The US government has already commented on it and are currently investigating who did this. If I may, I would like to do more than post the story, but also give my personal experience with a group of marines. A friend of my girlfriend was getting married and my girlfriend was one of the bride's maids. As such, there was a get together the day before the wedding at their home for the brides maids and best men etc. As the boyfriend of a bride's maid, I had the pleasure of coming along as well. The man who she was marrying was a marine, and all of his best men were also marines who served together in Iraq or Afghanistan, I can't recall which. When I arrived, they were playing Resident Evil 4, I think. They would joke about how they pretended that the zombies were Muslims, and how they absolutely loved killing Muslims. One of them specifically mentioned how it made them feel amazing to kill Muslims, followed by the rest agreeing and talking about it. I was just kinda sitting on a chair in the living room, as they all sat on a couch. I was speechless and couldn't really wrap my mind around the fact that they meant what they were saying and really felt that way. They continued talking about how they hated Muslims and how much they miss killing them in the war. I could tell that they were being serious and saw nothing wrong with what they were saying. I know its hard to really describe, but I could tell they were being quite serious. The bride and groom were very religious, and the other marines seemed to be the same. I know that some, far from all, Christians see Muslim faith as a competitor of sorts. Nevertheless, the most disgusting behavior I've ever had the displeasure of of watching. I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Note: I do not feel these in the video or the ones I met in person represent Marines or the US military as a whole. However, these people were issued guns and were put in situations where they had the potential to harm civilians. This is beyond unacceptable. It shouldn't be so easy to be a marine. There have been similar incidents in the past as well. 1. What is wrong with pissing on bodies? I mean, it's unprofessional, and rude, but is there anything really morally wrong with it? It's a peace of dead meat. The person isn't inside that body any more. 2. Why include the ridiculous anecdotal story about some marines joking around while playing a game? I don't see how this connects with the article at all. Furthermore, I have heard a thousand variations of this same story a thousand times, and so that makes me wonder why you put it here even more. 3. You don't have to be nice to be a solider. On the contrary, the military would probably prefer having the nasty guy to the nice guy. The nice guy is good, but when it comes time to blow some people up and kill some people, you don't want someone who has a problem with killing. You want someone that wants to kill, likes to kill, and will kill. 4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on. Typed from the comfort of your home, no doubt. 1) Would you be okay with people pissing on your dead relatives bodies? They're just pieces of meat anyway right? 2) Let's say for example that you're of an asian background. Would you be okay with it if those guys were talking about killing asians? 3) This kind of logic sounds like something that's been brought up by hollywood movies. 4) Look at no.3. Way to post a ignorant and one-sided post buddy. What does me being at home have to do with anything? 1. My dead relatives are worm food right now. They are probably currently rotting. I don't see how rotting is better than being pissed on. I would laugh in someones face if they told me they pissed on my dead relatives body. It's a body. No one is being hurt by that. 2. I don't believe the OP's story. I think he made it up on the spot. But even if it is true, so what? I wasn't there so I can't comment. Probably they were joking. 3. IDK what to tell you. Go join the military. 4. So you think the military isn't about killing? What? No the military isnt about killing. Its task is defending the nation that supports it. Killing might be a side effect of that but its not the reason a military exists. Also the military has different branches as well. Humanitarian, scientific, it renders aid in case of natural or artificial disasters etc.
when was the last time we needed defending?
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On January 12 2012 10:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:43 calgar wrote:I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Yo, just wanted to play devils advocate here and defend them. It's pretty easy to come down on their actions (its created a media shitstorm for obvious reasons, and I bet they will be caught since its already been narrowed to sniper teams) and judge them as a result. Disrespecting the dead goes against just about every culture. I think its short-sighted and naive to say that they are terrible people though. War can mess with people and their mental states in serious ways. Maybe they were upstanding and moral before and have since changed after stress and violence like seeing friends killed in front of them. Then they weren't fit for duty. My point in the OP is that soldiers who are not fit for duty are continuing to serve. I don't care who they used to be. People in their situation should be admitted to a psychiatric facility and dealt with, just as any other person would. There need to be stricter standards for when someone is considered good enough to represent our country as a solider.
While there's some merit here, would your opinion change if this had happened after a firefight, and the corpse in question had just shot one of their friends to death? I feel like it is really hard to judge the men without knowing ALL of the circumstances.
Marines soldiers etc. are often held to higher standards because of the debilitating mental effects that death and battle can have, in my opinion.
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On January 12 2012 10:58 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:38 Humanfails wrote:On January 12 2012 10:34 zVooky wrote:
I dont really understand what people want from those guys, on 1 hand you want them to witness all the brutal stuff that comes with war and on the other hand you want them to be completely unaffected by that? It's NOT going to happen like that. Truth is those guys end up F'ed in the head. The STRONGEST of people will with enough war stuff going on.
Is it right? No, Is it wrong? well who the hell are we to judge? These guys that they're urinating on could be some guys that killed their best friends or harmed civilians.. its impossible to tell. Can't just take what the media says and go OH THATS TERRIBLE! Put yourself in those persons shoes for a min and maybe it wont completely make sense but somewhat make sense. its called "not being psychologically fit to conduct warfare". Either they have the mentality of sociopathic monsters, or they gain one through warfare. You know this from personal experience do you?
It doesn't take personal experience. If someone was mentally/psychologically capable of committing this act, they were not fit for duty. Not urinating on dead people isn't exactly the strictest standard. If these men were operating with the level of honor and respect that our country's servicemen are expected to have, they wouldn't do this. But they did. Hence, they are not psychologically fit.
On January 12 2012 11:00 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:56 Mohdoo wrote:On January 12 2012 10:43 calgar wrote:I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Yo, just wanted to play devils advocate here and defend them. It's pretty easy to come down on their actions (its created a media shitstorm for obvious reasons, and I bet they will be caught since its already been narrowed to sniper teams) and judge them as a result. Disrespecting the dead goes against just about every culture. I think its short-sighted and naive to say that they are terrible people though. War can mess with people and their mental states in serious ways. Maybe they were upstanding and moral before and have since changed after stress and violence like seeing friends killed in front of them. Then they weren't fit for duty. My point in the OP is that soldiers who are not fit for duty are continuing to serve. I don't care who they used to be. People in their situation should be admitted to a psychiatric facility and dealt with, just as any other person would. There need to be stricter standards for when someone is considered good enough to represent our country as a solider. While there's some merit here, would your opinion change if this had happened after a firefight, and the corpse in question had just shot one of their friends to death? I feel like it is really hard to judge the men without knowing ALL of the circumstances.
Does every solider do this? I'd imagine far from it. That would mean that those who did this sort of thing are pretty low on the "psychologically fit" scale. I would conjecture that if there was more psychological oversight both before service and during service, these sorts of incidents could be drastically reduced. These men are giving our country a terrible name and giving terrorists propaganda what they want. They do a disservice to our country.
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On January 12 2012 10:42 zVooky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:38 Humanfails wrote:On January 12 2012 10:34 zVooky wrote:
I dont really understand what people want from those guys, on 1 hand you want them to witness all the brutal stuff that comes with war and on the other hand you want them to be completely unaffected by that? It's NOT going to happen like that. Truth is those guys end up F'ed in the head. The STRONGEST of people will with enough war stuff going on.
Is it right? No, Is it wrong? well who the hell are we to judge? These guys that they're urinating on could be some guys that killed their best friends or harmed civilians.. its impossible to tell. Can't just take what the media says and go OH THATS TERRIBLE! Put yourself in those persons shoes for a min and maybe it wont completely make sense but somewhat make sense. its called "not being psychologically fit to conduct warfare". Either they have the mentality of sociopathic monsters, or they gain one through warfare. Yes but its the guys they bash as "monsters" that protect the country to begin with and give it freedom. Look at some of the stories of stonings and such from other countries, ever wonder why that doesn't happen in the US like it does else where? Sorry but freedom is won with wars and these people you call monsters. I would never want to be put in the situation they are and thus I will never condemn their actions as I know not what these people have gone through.
What? "Freedom" is generated internally and always has been. The US has been under no threat of occupation since its inception. The idea that the American military is protecting American freedom is laughable.
On January 12 2012 10:52 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +Soldiers in general, are brainwashed to imorality and mass murder. As OPs example shows.
I find the entire military system (at least where i come from) to be a childish, money sink. As somebody who has nearly been shot out of the sky, with a father who was shot at in the first gulf war, and with a son who is about to enter the Air Force Academy, I find this absolutely extraordinarily offensive. Don't try and judge soldiers like civilians. You have no idea what the marines and soldiers on the ground go through, and what they have to suffer through every day. If you aren't haunted nightly by the memories of the faces of people that you've bombed, shot, or had shot, then judge lightly. The vast majority of soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines fight because they believe in something. We aren't bred for mass murder. Have some more respect (especially those of you in the United States) please. I'm not trying to condone the actions of the people in the OP (I think it is despicable), but please lump them in with the minority, and not the vast majority.
Except there's no conscription. Every single person in the military is a civilian who chose to join up.
I recognise that the military creates horrible experiences, but then pretty much everyone who does something awful has had abominable things happen to them. Doesn't make any terrible actions any more acceptable.
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On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:58 Mohdoo wrote:Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/11/us/video-marines-urinating/index.html?hpt=hp_t3Washington (CNN) -- A number of websites including TMZ and YouTube posted a video Wednesday showing four men dressed in U.S. Marine Corps combat gear urinating on the apparently dead bodies of three men sprawled on the ground in front of them.
One of the men says, "Have a great day, buddy." A voice asks, "You got it on the video?" to which another voice responds, "Yeah." Another jokes, "Golden, like a shower." The US government has already commented on it and are currently investigating who did this. If I may, I would like to do more than post the story, but also give my personal experience with a group of marines. A friend of my girlfriend was getting married and my girlfriend was one of the bride's maids. As such, there was a get together the day before the wedding at their home for the brides maids and best men etc. As the boyfriend of a bride's maid, I had the pleasure of coming along as well. The man who she was marrying was a marine, and all of his best men were also marines who served together in Iraq or Afghanistan, I can't recall which. When I arrived, they were playing Resident Evil 4, I think. They would joke about how they pretended that the zombies were Muslims, and how they absolutely loved killing Muslims. One of them specifically mentioned how it made them feel amazing to kill Muslims, followed by the rest agreeing and talking about it. I was just kinda sitting on a chair in the living room, as they all sat on a couch. I was speechless and couldn't really wrap my mind around the fact that they meant what they were saying and really felt that way. They continued talking about how they hated Muslims and how much they miss killing them in the war. I could tell that they were being serious and saw nothing wrong with what they were saying. I know its hard to really describe, but I could tell they were being quite serious. The bride and groom were very religious, and the other marines seemed to be the same. I know that some, far from all, Christians see Muslim faith as a competitor of sorts. Nevertheless, the most disgusting behavior I've ever had the displeasure of of watching. I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Note: I do not feel these in the video or the ones I met in person represent Marines or the US military as a whole. However, these people were issued guns and were put in situations where they had the potential to harm civilians. This is beyond unacceptable. It shouldn't be so easy to be a marine. There have been similar incidents in the past as well. 1. What is wrong with pissing on bodies? I mean, it's unprofessional, and rude, but is there anything really morally wrong with it? It's a peace of dead meat. The person isn't inside that body any more. 2. Why include the ridiculous anecdotal story about some marines joking around while playing a game? I don't see how this connects with the article at all. Furthermore, I have heard a thousand variations of this same story a thousand times, and so that makes me wonder why you put it here even more. 3. You don't have to be nice to be a solider. On the contrary, the military would probably prefer having the nasty guy to the nice guy. The nice guy is good, but when it comes time to blow some people up and kill some people, you don't want someone who has a problem with killing. You want someone that wants to kill, likes to kill, and will kill. 4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on.
Thus you remain a SCV after hundreds of posts. Need more quality than quantity.
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Its so unfortunate that people like this can ruin the entire image of otherwise honorable servicemen. I hope people dont take this in a way that makes them think many Americans are so disgustingly disrespectful.
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Because that post just screams quality...
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Why did they make a video? 0_o
Can't you just pee on bodies and be "happy" or however peeing on bodies was supposed to make them feel.
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On January 12 2012 11:00 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:58 Alryk wrote:On January 12 2012 10:38 Humanfails wrote:On January 12 2012 10:34 zVooky wrote:
I dont really understand what people want from those guys, on 1 hand you want them to witness all the brutal stuff that comes with war and on the other hand you want them to be completely unaffected by that? It's NOT going to happen like that. Truth is those guys end up F'ed in the head. The STRONGEST of people will with enough war stuff going on.
Is it right? No, Is it wrong? well who the hell are we to judge? These guys that they're urinating on could be some guys that killed their best friends or harmed civilians.. its impossible to tell. Can't just take what the media says and go OH THATS TERRIBLE! Put yourself in those persons shoes for a min and maybe it wont completely make sense but somewhat make sense. its called "not being psychologically fit to conduct warfare". Either they have the mentality of sociopathic monsters, or they gain one through warfare. You know this from personal experience do you? It doesn't take personal experience. If someone was mentally/psychologically capable of committing this act, they were not fit for duty. Not urinating on dead people isn't exactly the strictest standard. If these men were operating with the level of honor and respect that our country's servicemen are expected to have, they wouldn't do this. But they did. Hence, they are not psychologically fit. Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:00 Alryk wrote:On January 12 2012 10:56 Mohdoo wrote:On January 12 2012 10:43 calgar wrote:I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Yo, just wanted to play devils advocate here and defend them. It's pretty easy to come down on their actions (its created a media shitstorm for obvious reasons, and I bet they will be caught since its already been narrowed to sniper teams) and judge them as a result. Disrespecting the dead goes against just about every culture. I think its short-sighted and naive to say that they are terrible people though. War can mess with people and their mental states in serious ways. Maybe they were upstanding and moral before and have since changed after stress and violence like seeing friends killed in front of them. Then they weren't fit for duty. My point in the OP is that soldiers who are not fit for duty are continuing to serve. I don't care who they used to be. People in their situation should be admitted to a psychiatric facility and dealt with, just as any other person would. There need to be stricter standards for when someone is considered good enough to represent our country as a solider. While there's some merit here, would your opinion change if this had happened after a firefight, and the corpse in question had just shot one of their friends to death? I feel like it is really hard to judge the men without knowing ALL of the circumstances. Does every solider do this? I'd imagine far from it. That would mean that those who did this sort of thing are pretty low on the "psychologically fit" scale. I would conjecture that if there was more psychological oversight both before service and during service, these sorts of incidents could be drastically reduced. These men are giving our country a terrible name and giving terrorists propaganda what they want. They do a disservice to our country.
I guess I would agree with them not being fit for duty, but you really can't understand what it can do to people. And again, I'm not making excuses for them, but war is pretty awful.
Standards can only go so far... and believe it or not, war can turn the most morally upright person into a messed up sack of bones, muscles, and blood with no sense of morality. And while at that point they might not be fit for duty, it's hard to determine when they actually reach that point until they really "snap."
I agree with your second part, it's dishonorable and obviously merits punishment. But you also have to keep in mind the "spur of the moment." Surely you've done something off of an instant reaction and regretted it later? Now, although you might want to say "but they should be ready for this" or something, but it's still often hard to control yourself when a friend blows up near you.
Honestly, I agree with your OP, my argument was never really with you  I just really feel offended by those who seem to imply that "the military is full of mindless killing machines with no sense of honor." I think that failing in your duty is one of the worst things you can do, and part of that is maintaining the moral standards that the US military should be (and is) known for. The sad part is that the media only shows the negatives, which in reality are the vast minority.
I guess I just wish that people would give more credit to the vast majority of honorable men and women who fight and die so that you can stay safe at home and rant about how terrible and dishonorable our entire military is >.>
Edit: To clarify - I agree that people like this are disrespectful and shouldn't serve. I take issue with people who think this is the norm in the military.
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On January 12 2012 10:31 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
My dead relatives are worm food right now. They are probably currently rotting. I don't see how rotting is better than being pissed on. I would laugh in someones face if they told me they pissed on my dead relatives body. It's a body. No one is being
hurt by that.
It's fine if you don't mind soldiers from another country urinating on the remains of your body or the body of your family members, but isn't part of keeping an open mind understanding that our actions may offend others?
Yes, perhaps from your perspective there is nothing offensive, but if you want to improve diplomatic relations and avoid entire populations from hating your country's military, being politically correct goes a long way. A good place to start is respecting that most people feel urinating on someone's dead body is a bad thing.
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On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
1. What is wrong with pissing on bodies? I mean, it's unprofessional, and rude, but is there anything really morally wrong with it? It's a peace of dead meat. The person isn't inside that body any more.
3. You don't have to be nice to be a solider. On the contrary, the military would probably prefer having the nasty guy to the nice guy. The nice guy is good, but when it comes time to blow some people up and kill some people, you don't want someone who has a problem with killing. You want someone that wants to kill, likes to kill, and will kill.
4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on.
OH MY FUCKING GOD! How dare you even say these things!
Someone please do something about this... This is a debauchery of everything that is good about humanity!
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On January 12 2012 11:00 hytonight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:58 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 10:31 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On January 12 2012 10:24 Arterial wrote:On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On January 12 2012 09:58 Mohdoo wrote:Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/11/us/video-marines-urinating/index.html?hpt=hp_t3Washington (CNN) -- A number of websites including TMZ and YouTube posted a video Wednesday showing four men dressed in U.S. Marine Corps combat gear urinating on the apparently dead bodies of three men sprawled on the ground in front of them.
One of the men says, "Have a great day, buddy." A voice asks, "You got it on the video?" to which another voice responds, "Yeah." Another jokes, "Golden, like a shower." The US government has already commented on it and are currently investigating who did this. If I may, I would like to do more than post the story, but also give my personal experience with a group of marines. A friend of my girlfriend was getting married and my girlfriend was one of the bride's maids. As such, there was a get together the day before the wedding at their home for the brides maids and best men etc. As the boyfriend of a bride's maid, I had the pleasure of coming along as well. The man who she was marrying was a marine, and all of his best men were also marines who served together in Iraq or Afghanistan, I can't recall which. When I arrived, they were playing Resident Evil 4, I think. They would joke about how they pretended that the zombies were Muslims, and how they absolutely loved killing Muslims. One of them specifically mentioned how it made them feel amazing to kill Muslims, followed by the rest agreeing and talking about it. I was just kinda sitting on a chair in the living room, as they all sat on a couch. I was speechless and couldn't really wrap my mind around the fact that they meant what they were saying and really felt that way. They continued talking about how they hated Muslims and how much they miss killing them in the war. I could tell that they were being serious and saw nothing wrong with what they were saying. I know its hard to really describe, but I could tell they were being quite serious. The bride and groom were very religious, and the other marines seemed to be the same. I know that some, far from all, Christians see Muslim faith as a competitor of sorts. Nevertheless, the most disgusting behavior I've ever had the displeasure of of watching. I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Note: I do not feel these in the video or the ones I met in person represent Marines or the US military as a whole. However, these people were issued guns and were put in situations where they had the potential to harm civilians. This is beyond unacceptable. It shouldn't be so easy to be a marine. There have been similar incidents in the past as well. 1. What is wrong with pissing on bodies? I mean, it's unprofessional, and rude, but is there anything really morally wrong with it? It's a peace of dead meat. The person isn't inside that body any more. 2. Why include the ridiculous anecdotal story about some marines joking around while playing a game? I don't see how this connects with the article at all. Furthermore, I have heard a thousand variations of this same story a thousand times, and so that makes me wonder why you put it here even more. 3. You don't have to be nice to be a solider. On the contrary, the military would probably prefer having the nasty guy to the nice guy. The nice guy is good, but when it comes time to blow some people up and kill some people, you don't want someone who has a problem with killing. You want someone that wants to kill, likes to kill, and will kill. 4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on. Typed from the comfort of your home, no doubt. 1) Would you be okay with people pissing on your dead relatives bodies? They're just pieces of meat anyway right? 2) Let's say for example that you're of an asian background. Would you be okay with it if those guys were talking about killing asians? 3) This kind of logic sounds like something that's been brought up by hollywood movies. 4) Look at no.3. Way to post a ignorant and one-sided post buddy. What does me being at home have to do with anything? 1. My dead relatives are worm food right now. They are probably currently rotting. I don't see how rotting is better than being pissed on. I would laugh in someones face if they told me they pissed on my dead relatives body. It's a body. No one is being hurt by that. 2. I don't believe the OP's story. I think he made it up on the spot. But even if it is true, so what? I wasn't there so I can't comment. Probably they were joking. 3. IDK what to tell you. Go join the military. 4. So you think the military isn't about killing? What? No the military isnt about killing. Its task is defending the nation that supports it. Killing might be a side effect of that but its not the reason a military exists. Also the military has different branches as well. Humanitarian, scientific, it renders aid in case of natural or artificial disasters etc. when was the last time we needed defending?
Just because a country doesnt need to defend itself doesnt mean it shouldnt have the means to do so. There is a clear reason for the existance of a military and no matter how much would want to twist that to fit your views its not what the intention of those who formed the military had in mind for it.
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On January 12 2012 11:09 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:00 Mohdoo wrote:On January 12 2012 10:58 Alryk wrote:On January 12 2012 10:38 Humanfails wrote:On January 12 2012 10:34 zVooky wrote:
I dont really understand what people want from those guys, on 1 hand you want them to witness all the brutal stuff that comes with war and on the other hand you want them to be completely unaffected by that? It's NOT going to happen like that. Truth is those guys end up F'ed in the head. The STRONGEST of people will with enough war stuff going on.
Is it right? No, Is it wrong? well who the hell are we to judge? These guys that they're urinating on could be some guys that killed their best friends or harmed civilians.. its impossible to tell. Can't just take what the media says and go OH THATS TERRIBLE! Put yourself in those persons shoes for a min and maybe it wont completely make sense but somewhat make sense. its called "not being psychologically fit to conduct warfare". Either they have the mentality of sociopathic monsters, or they gain one through warfare. You know this from personal experience do you? It doesn't take personal experience. If someone was mentally/psychologically capable of committing this act, they were not fit for duty. Not urinating on dead people isn't exactly the strictest standard. If these men were operating with the level of honor and respect that our country's servicemen are expected to have, they wouldn't do this. But they did. Hence, they are not psychologically fit. On January 12 2012 11:00 Alryk wrote:On January 12 2012 10:56 Mohdoo wrote:On January 12 2012 10:43 calgar wrote:I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Yo, just wanted to play devils advocate here and defend them. It's pretty easy to come down on their actions (its created a media shitstorm for obvious reasons, and I bet they will be caught since its already been narrowed to sniper teams) and judge them as a result. Disrespecting the dead goes against just about every culture. I think its short-sighted and naive to say that they are terrible people though. War can mess with people and their mental states in serious ways. Maybe they were upstanding and moral before and have since changed after stress and violence like seeing friends killed in front of them. Then they weren't fit for duty. My point in the OP is that soldiers who are not fit for duty are continuing to serve. I don't care who they used to be. People in their situation should be admitted to a psychiatric facility and dealt with, just as any other person would. There need to be stricter standards for when someone is considered good enough to represent our country as a solider. While there's some merit here, would your opinion change if this had happened after a firefight, and the corpse in question had just shot one of their friends to death? I feel like it is really hard to judge the men without knowing ALL of the circumstances. Does every solider do this? I'd imagine far from it. That would mean that those who did this sort of thing are pretty low on the "psychologically fit" scale. I would conjecture that if there was more psychological oversight both before service and during service, these sorts of incidents could be drastically reduced. These men are giving our country a terrible name and giving terrorists propaganda what they want. They do a disservice to our country. I guess I would agree with them not being fit for duty, but you really can't understand what it can do to people. And again, I'm not making excuses for them, but war is pretty awful. Standards can only go so far... and believe it or not, war can turn the most morally upright person into a messed up sack of bones, muscles, and blood with no sense of morality. And while at that point they might not be fit for duty, it's hard to determine when they actually reach that point until they really "snap." I agree with your second part, it's dishonorable and obviously merits punishment. But you also have to keep in mind the "spur of the moment." Surely you've done something off of an instant reaction and regretted it later? Now, although you might want to say "but they should be ready for this" or something, but it's still often hard to control yourself when a friend blows up near you. Honestly, I agree with your OP, my argument was never really with you I just really feel offended by those who seem to imply that "the military is full of mindless killing machines with no sense of honor." I think that failing in your duty is one of the worst things you can do, and part of that is maintaining the moral standards that the US military should be (and is) known for. The sad part is that the media only shows the negatives, which in reality are the vast minority. I guess I just wish that people would give more credit to the vast majority of honorable men and women who fight and die so that you can stay safe at home and rant about how terrible and dishonorable our entire military is >.> Edit: To clarify - I agree that people like this are disrespectful and shouldn't serve. I take issue with people who think this is the norm in the military.
Right, I by no means believe all the military is like this. I'm curious, you being someone who seems to have a family of military men, perhaps you're fit to answer. What do you think the military can or should (in an ideal world) do to curve this sort of thing? I believe this is a genuine issue and that it needs to change. I don't think we should accept this as a fact of war. We're a race of progress and self-betterment. We should be able to tackle this problem.
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On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
3. You don't have to be nice to be a solider. On the contrary, the military would probably prefer having the nasty guy to the nice guy. The nice guy is good, but when it comes time to blow some people up and kill some people, you don't want someone who has a problem with killing. You want someone that wants to kill, likes to kill, and will kill.
4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on.
Really all that needs be said.
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Things like this really frighten me. I know three people from high school who ended up joining the marines. 2 of them said when I asked them why they were joined was to "kill towelheads". I think the military needs some way of figuring out the tolerance levels for people before we let them represent our country abroad. You don't want the people who are supposed to be winning the hearts and minds abroad giving such an awful image for America. If that cuts down in the number of people able to be in the military, then I'm going to be too sad if we have to cut down the size of our military.
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On January 12 2012 11:10 ChinaRestaurant wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:00 hytonight wrote:On January 12 2012 10:58 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On January 12 2012 10:31 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On January 12 2012 10:24 Arterial wrote:On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On January 12 2012 09:58 Mohdoo wrote:Source: Washington (CNN) -- A number of websites including TMZ and YouTube posted a video Wednesday showing four men dressed in U.S. Marine Corps combat gear urinating on the apparently dead bodies of three men sprawled on the ground in front of them.
One of the men says, "Have a great day, buddy." A voice asks, "You got it on the video?" to which another voice responds, "Yeah." Another jokes, "Golden, like a shower." The US government has already commented on it and are currently investigating who did this. If I may, I would like to do more than post the story, but also give my personal experience with a group of marines. A friend of my girlfriend was getting married and my girlfriend was one of the bride's maids. As such, there was a get together the day before the wedding at their home for the brides maids and best men etc. As the boyfriend of a bride's maid, I had the pleasure of coming along as well. The man who she was marrying was a marine, and all of his best men were also marines who served together in Iraq or Afghanistan, I can't recall which. When I arrived, they were playing Resident Evil 4, I think. They would joke about how they pretended that the zombies were Muslims, and how they absolutely loved killing Muslims. One of them specifically mentioned how it made them feel amazing to kill Muslims, followed by the rest agreeing and talking about it. I was just kinda sitting on a chair in the living room, as they all sat on a couch. I was speechless and couldn't really wrap my mind around the fact that they meant what they were saying and really felt that way. They continued talking about how they hated Muslims and how much they miss killing them in the war. I could tell that they were being serious and saw nothing wrong with what they were saying. I know its hard to really describe, but I could tell they were being quite serious. The bride and groom were very religious, and the other marines seemed to be the same. I know that some, far from all, Christians see Muslim faith as a competitor of sorts. Nevertheless, the most disgusting behavior I've ever had the displeasure of of watching. I don't like how just about any physically capable person can become a marine. I don't like that there are such low psychological and mental requirements. If someone is given, they need to be an outstanding person. The people shown in this video and the group of marines I described are certainly far from DECENT people. They bring shame to my country and I wish that there was more being done to prevent such people from serving. Note: I do not feel these in the video or the ones I met in person represent Marines or the US military as a whole. However, these people were issued guns and were put in situations where they had the potential to harm civilians. This is beyond unacceptable. It shouldn't be so easy to be a marine. There have been similar incidents in the past as well. 1. What is wrong with pissing on bodies? I mean, it's unprofessional, and rude, but is there anything really morally wrong with it? It's a peace of dead meat. The person isn't inside that body any more. 2. Why include the ridiculous anecdotal story about some marines joking around while playing a game? I don't see how this connects with the article at all. Furthermore, I have heard a thousand variations of this same story a thousand times, and so that makes me wonder why you put it here even more. 3. You don't have to be nice to be a solider. On the contrary, the military would probably prefer having the nasty guy to the nice guy. The nice guy is good, but when it comes time to blow some people up and kill some people, you don't want someone who has a problem with killing. You want someone that wants to kill, likes to kill, and will kill. 4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on. Typed from the comfort of your home, no doubt. 1) Would you be okay with people pissing on your dead relatives bodies? They're just pieces of meat anyway right? 2) Let's say for example that you're of an asian background. Would you be okay with it if those guys were talking about killing asians? 3) This kind of logic sounds like something that's been brought up by hollywood movies. 4) Look at no.3. Way to post a ignorant and one-sided post buddy. What does me being at home have to do with anything? 1. My dead relatives are worm food right now. They are probably currently rotting. I don't see how rotting is better than being pissed on. I would laugh in someones face if they told me they pissed on my dead relatives body. It's a body. No one is being hurt by that. 2. I don't believe the OP's story. I think he made it up on the spot. But even if it is true, so what? I wasn't there so I can't comment. Probably they were joking. 3. IDK what to tell you. Go join the military. 4. So you think the military isn't about killing? What? No the military isnt about killing. Its task is defending the nation that supports it. Killing might be a side effect of that but its not the reason a military exists. Also the military has different branches as well. Humanitarian, scientific, it renders aid in case of natural or artificial disasters etc. when was the last time we needed defending? Just because a country doesnt need to defend itself doesnt mean it shouldnt have the means to do so. There is a clear reason for the existance of a military and no matter how much would want to twist that to fit your views its not what the intention of those who formed the military had in mind for it.
Nothing wrong with having a military. However, you cannot possibly claim that the purpose of the American military has been defence since WW2.
On January 12 2012 11:09 Alryk wrote:
I guess I just wish that people would give more credit to the vast majority of honorable men and women who fight and die so that you can stay safe at home and rant about how terrible and dishonorable our entire military is >.>
Edit: To clarify - I agree that people like this are disrespectful and shouldn't serve. I take issue with people who think this is the norm in the military.
Oh come on, this is just obfuscation. None of the people involved here had anything whatsoever to do with defending anyone who is posting here.
The majority of military personnel I've talked to have had poor attitudes to war - been eager to "kill towelheads" and that kind of bullshit - and would be all for pissing on dead bodies. This doesn't surprise me at all. I have no idea what the exact percentage split between "honourable people" and "dishonourable people" in any military might be, but let's not pretend this sort of disgusting attitude is rare.
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On January 12 2012 11:13 diophan wrote:
Things like this really frighten me. I know three people from high school who ended up joining the marines. 2 of them said when I asked them why they were joined was to "kill towelheads". I think the military needs some way of figuring out the tolerance levels for people before we let them represent our country abroad. You don't want the people who are supposed to be winning the hearts and minds abroad giving such an awful image for America. If that cuts down in the number of people able to be in the military, then I'm going to be too sad if we have to cut down the size of our military.
problem is when they come back. i have a friend who enlisted to get out of a jail sentence, he feels itchy without having at least something to shoot every day. guys totally lost it, he cant wait to go back out.
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On January 12 2012 10:12 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
4. It isn't easy being a soldier. We need soldiers though, and they don't need to be great people. They need to be killers. Killers, often, are not the greatest people. There aren't enough nice people who are also killers to fill the shoes that we need. Life sucks, move on.
Yeah, the way to clean up after invading a country is definitely getting soldiers who make people hate us even more, inciting more people to join the fight against us. We just need to kill everyone that doesn't like us and we'll win. That's how it works right? ...
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Sorry, guys, but "winning the hearts and minds" of the population is not the soldier's job. His job is to shoot where his CO tells him to shoot, kill who his CO tells him to kill, and be a nasty, crude, rude, and generally unpleasant mother-fucker.
People are making WAAAAAAAY too big a deal about this...
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On January 12 2012 11:18 amd098 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:13 diophan wrote:
Things like this really frighten me. I know three people from high school who ended up joining the marines. 2 of them said when I asked them why they were joined was to "kill towelheads". I think the military needs some way of figuring out the tolerance levels for people before we let them represent our country abroad. You don't want the people who are supposed to be winning the hearts and minds abroad giving such an awful image for America. If that cuts down in the number of people able to be in the military, then I'm going to be too sad if we have to cut down the size of our military. problem is when they come back. i have a friend who enlisted to get out of a jail sentence, he feels itchy without having at least something to shoot every day. guys totally lost it, he cant wait to go back out.
...And this is exactly what I'm talking about >_< This guy is going to go back into the military apparently and there is no way that is a good thing.
On January 12 2012 11:19 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Sorry, guys, but "winning the hearts and minds" of the population is no the soldier's job. His job is to shoot where his CO tells him to shoot, kill who his CO tells him to kill, and generally be a nasty, crude, rude, and generally unpleasant mother-fucker.
People are making WAAAAAAAY too big a deal about this...
This is your opinion on what is right and wrong in the world and has no basis on the reality. A soldier DOES play a huge role in winning the hears and minds of a population. Especially when they are sent there to help said people. You can argue that in a better world, it would not be their job. But it is their job. The role a soldier plays is a huge impact on how a population views a people, whether you agree with it or not.
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EPT
