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to people who are mad at Gom about this:
#1, I'm sure some of you are soccer fans, and love the world cup. There are games in the world cup group stages that are pointless. So are you saying that two teams in that situation to be allowed to just come out and just take a nap on the field for 90 min each and just go home? It's supposed to be a premier tournament. You're supposed to have respect for the game itself. Is the format imperfect? of course, but what format IS perfect? It's about being held to a higher standard because you are a professional. If some soccer team in a kiddy league game came out and didn't play because they were already knocked out, then no one really cares. But if some team did that in the World Cup and FIFA didn't take action, soccer fans would be FURIOUS. Same for any sports really. Respect the game you're playing.
#2, It was very very short sighted of naniwa to do this. Sadly it's how the whole pro scene sort of is right now, and how naniwa has no real idea on how to really market himself. But if in the football season (for americans) in the last game of the season, if a player was playing less than his best on purpose, wouldn't that be devaluing himself? Shouldn't naniwa, especially after all the team finding struggles, at least TRY to show that he can be be mannered.... you know.. for when this contract expires? Even if quantic resigns him, it'd be beneficial to him if other teams were eager to sign him as well
#3, Way to ruin your reputation in another country naniwa. I mean, honestly, i've read through the Korean forums, and most of the time they were like "Who the hell is this naniwa kid?" Most people didn't know the details of the MLG incident, and they know even less about his team being moved around a lot. This was an amazing chance for him to get a fresh start at another country, but he took that chance and blew it's brains out.
#4, Completely wrong attitude. (Btw, broodwar reference coming.) Do you really think Flash wanted to play that game after he was handed a forfiet loss cause of the black out in the MLG against Jaedong? Do you think Silent_Control wanted to show up to that game, when he knew he was terribly sick, agianst GoRush where he fainted on national TV? Do you think GoRush really didn't want to take that free win he was offered? Do you think Jaedong really wouldn't have wanted another chance when his lurker bugged out? There are amazing number of cases where people are faced with imperfect situations. Isn't a professional supposed to be able to look past that and at least TRY your best, to do the right thing?
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On December 14 2011 22:32 Mirror0423 wrote:
to people who are mad at Gom about this:
#1, I'm sure some of you are soccer fans, and love the world cup. There are games in the world cup group stages that are pointless. So are you saying that two teams in that situation to be allowed to just come out and just take a nap on the field for 90 min each and just go home? It's supposed to be a premier tournament. You're supposed to have respect for the game itself. Is the format imperfect? of course, but what format IS perfect? It's about being held to a higher standard because you are a professional. If some soccer team in a kiddy league game came out and didn't play because they were already knocked out, then no one really cares. But if some team did that in the World Cup and FIFA didn't take action, soccer fans would be FURIOUS. Same for any sports really. Respect the game you're playing.
#2, It was very very short sighted of naniwa to do this. Sadly it's how the whole pro scene sort of is right now, and how naniwa has no real idea on how to really market himself. But if in the football season (for americans) in the last game of the season, if a player was playing less than his best on purpose, wouldn't that be devaluing himself? Shouldn't naniwa, especially after all the team finding struggles, at least TRY to show that he can be be mannered.... you know.. for when this contract expires? Even if quantic resigns him, it'd be beneficial to him if other teams were eager to sign him as well
#3, Way to ruin your reputation in another country naniwa. I mean, honestly, i've read through the Korean forums, and most of the time they were like "Who the hell is this naniwa kid?" Most people didn't know the details of the MLG incident, and they know even less about his team being moved around a lot. This was an amazing chance for him to get a fresh start at another country, but he took that chance and blew it's brains out.
#4, Completely wrong attitude. (Btw, broodwar reference coming.) Do you really think Flash wanted to play that game after he was handed a forfiet loss cause of the black out in the MLG against Jaedong? Do you think Silent_Control wanted to show up to that game, when he knew he was terribly sick, agianst GoRush where he fainted on national TV? Do you think GoRush really didn't want to take that free win he was offered? Do you think Jaedong really wouldn't have wanted another chance when his lurker bugged out? There are amazing number of cases where people are faced with imperfect situations. Isn't a professional supposed to be able to look past that and at least TRY your best, to do the right thing?
1. People often field their B team if the results doesn't matter and there is a huge time difference. Fifa isn't going to play the last game of the group right after you're knocked out of the tournament, you have 2 days to cool down your disappointment.
2. Yes he should, Quantic can very well punish him. I don't think he's done anything objectively against the rules in GSL though.
3. Yes, he's stupid.
4. They are supposed to, but there is a duty of the competition to minimize those possibilities and having players play right after they're knocked out is just asking for half-assed games.
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At #4 you mean MSL, not MLG.
I actually agree with all the points made.
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I have no experience in broodwar, but aren't the reasons you've listed a good example of how not being able to forfeit matches is ridiculous and stupid? Also, while I have yet to form an opinion on this matter, but I'm sure that if a soccer team actually did not play in a game, you would expect a fine, a penalty or something of the like and not something so drastic as removing them from a tournament next season and having them go through grueling qualification rounds.
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On December 14 2011 22:32 Mirror0423 wrote:
to people who are mad at Gom about this:
#1, I'm sure some of you are soccer fans, and love the world cup. There are games in the world cup group stages that are pointless. So are you saying that two teams in that situation to be allowed to just come out and just take a nap on the field for 90 min each and just go home? It's supposed to be a premier tournament. You're supposed to have respect for the game itself. Is the format imperfect? of course, but what format IS perfect? It's about being held to a higher standard because you are a professional. If some soccer team in a kiddy league game came out and didn't play because they were already knocked out, then no one really cares. But if some team did that in the World Cup and FIFA didn't take action, soccer fans would be FURIOUS. Same for any sports really. Respect the game you're playing.
#2, It was very very short sighted of naniwa to do this. Sadly it's how the whole pro scene sort of is right now, and how naniwa has no real idea on how to really market himself. But if in the football season (for americans) in the last game of the season, if a player was playing less than his best on purpose, wouldn't that be devaluing himself? Shouldn't naniwa, especially after all the team finding struggles, at least TRY to show that he can be be mannered.... you know.. for when this contract expires? Even if quantic resigns him, it'd be beneficial to him if other teams were eager to sign him as well
#3, Way to ruin your reputation in another country naniwa. I mean, honestly, i've read through the Korean forums, and most of the time they were like "Who the hell is this naniwa kid?" Most people didn't know the details of the MLG incident, and they know even less about his team being moved around a lot. This was an amazing chance for him to get a fresh start at another country, but he took that chance and blew it's brains out.
#4, Completely wrong attitude. (Btw, broodwar reference coming.) Do you really think Flash wanted to play that game after he was handed a forfiet loss cause of the black out in the MLG against Jaedong? Do you think Silent_Control wanted to show up to that game, when he knew he was terribly sick, agianst GoRush where he fainted on national TV? Do you think GoRush really didn't want to take that free win he was offered? Do you think Jaedong really wouldn't have wanted another chance when his lurker bugged out? There are amazing number of cases where people are faced with imperfect situations. Isn't a professional supposed to be able to look past that and at least TRY your best, to do the right thing?
France, Euro 2008, Karim Benzema. It happens in Sports too, Benzema was not banned from all UEFA championships, his team was out after getting crushed and the players didnt want to do anything on the pitch so Benzema said 'i dont want to play'
France, World Cup 2010. I dont need to explain that one, right?
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1. Soccer is a timed sport sc isn't
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It would have been best if Naniwa just discussed the possibilities with Nestea about the match in the 30-40 mins before the match was supposed to be played. He could have (attempted to) work something out with Nestea and GOMtv by explaining that he just couldn't bring a good match in the mental state he was in.
Perhaps they could have played the match later, or work something out to play a grudge match, or at the very least inform the producers and Nestea that he just wouldn't be able to give Nestea and the audience the match they deserve.
None of these thing happened as far as I know. The penalty is to lose his Code S seed for the 1st 2012 season. I think it is the right penalty, as it is not that severe. I do think Gomtv should contemplate removing a meaningless match though in any future setups and at least understand that the structure of this Blizzard Cup is flawed.
Moving forward, I am sure that both parties learned a great deal from this event, and will not make this same mistake in the future. It happened, let's move forward now. Posted this in another blog too, because it seems all rationality fades in the endless waves of criticism that cannot effect the outcome anymore.
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On December 14 2011 22:43 evils_death wrote:
I have no experience in broodwar, but aren't the reasons you've listed a good example of how not being able to forfeit matches is ridiculous and stupid? Also, while I have yet to form an opinion on this matter, but I'm sure that if a soccer team actually did not play in a game, you would expect a fine, a penalty or something of the like and not something so drastic as removing them from a tournament next season and having them go through grueling qualification rounds.
You can't ask players to pay fine because there are no "standard" regarding player's salary. Some players make way more than the others depending on various factors. So $1000 of fine could be huge to a lesser player than to someone like MVP. Is GOM going to give suspension to Naniwa? That's impossible because it has a tournament format. Thus the only option left is revoke his invitation status.
When/If Starcraft 2 gets a KeSPA like entity, and there are more regular leagues such as proleague, GOM will have more options. But for now, this is the best they can do.
If he really deserves Code S spot, no one is stopping him from participating in the qualification for Code A, right?
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I completely agree. Its a maturity issue more than anything else
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We're trying to push the envelope on professionalism of our hobby and this goes to show that there needs to be more structure around the immature and socially inexperienced adolescents that we idol at tournaments and events.
Fines are continually dished out in professional sports for unprofessional or unethical behavior and eSports should be no different if we want to grow and improve our standing.
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I'm just sad because I enjoy watching Naniwa play because he's so ridiculously good at the game. Professionalism aside, I want to watch the best players play.
But at the same time, the auto-seed into the GSL has generally resulted in the foreigners getting crushed. So I disapprove of that all together. EVERYBODY who is in the GSL, Code S or Code A, should have to fight for it from the ground up. No exceptions.
Of course, when players are put in a situation when it becomes beneficial for them to lose (due to a teammate placing higher in a group and advancing, for instance, when they themselves have no chance of advancing), nobody should blame them for forfeiting. I think it should be okay to honorably forfeit a match that has no implications, or has positive implications for those close to you.
Pros have been doing similar things for years, Naniwa just took it to the extreme. Like he said, the next time this sort of thing happens, he should just 4gate. Promote the "illusion" that you're actually trying to win. For the fans that can't tell what's really going on.
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1# its called football (because you play it with the foot, not like your shitty football) NOT SOCCER
soccer is a ridiculous word you weird americans made for a thing that ALREADY HAD A NAME.....
seriously tough
this blog is anyway just again 1 of thousand oppinions about that drama....fuck it, its just a clash of cultures....i stick with idras twitter :"dont have meaningless matches if you want players to take them seriously."
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On December 14 2011 23:34 gwaihir wrote:
1# its called football (because you play it with the foot, not like your shitty football) NOT SOCCER
soccer is a ridiculous word you weird americans made for a thing that ALREADY HAD A NAME.....
seriously tough
this blog is anyway just again 1 of thousand oppinions about that drama....fuck it, its just a clash of cultures....i stick with idras twitter :"dont have meaningless matches if you want players to take them seriously."
idra tweeted that? my respect for IdrA (high to begin with) went up 3 or 4 notches!
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Your World Cup reference is a little off base. Teams continue trying even in meaningless games because they are playing for more than themselves, Country Pride. It's also ONCE every 4 years. Blizzard Cup will be forgotten next month, well if it wasn't for this Naniwa incident.
Naniwa has said it over and over and over again that he really doesn't care about ANYTHING else except winning. So his fans know that Naniwa will only ever play FOR HIMSELF. He isn't playing for Sweden, he isn't playing for his team, he isn't playing for his fans, any and all motivation comes FROM HIMSELF. If he felt that his game against Nestea had some type of meaning he would've surely played with all his heart, except it didn't and he didn't.
Naniwa's only mistake is not pretending to give a fuck as well as the other people do. He doesn't have that filter. I don't agree with it since clearly it has caused him some problems but, that's just the way Naniwa is, love him or hate him.
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On December 14 2011 23:12 divito wrote:
We're trying to push the envelope on professionalism of our hobby and this goes to show that there needs to be more structure around the immature and socially inexperienced adolescents that we idol at tournaments and events.
Fines are continually dished out in professional sports for unprofessional or unethical behavior and eSports should be no different if we want to grow and improve our standing.
Only way you can dish out fines is if the players and tournaments enter a contract with a "body"(like Kespa) that can control players participation. Without that "body" if a player gets fined in X tournament or league he just won't show up to it and ignore it and go to the other tournaments/leagues. You need enforcement for people to take it seriously. With fines comes the appeal process for fines to be dismissed since it can't be a one way street or there would be abuse eventually.
You might think it's just a switch you turn on, but it's incredibly complicated if it's to be done right.
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I don't understand it, but it seems like a lot of people care more about certain players than the game itself. Did you really want to see a worker rush? Is that why you watch?
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honestly naniwas behavior was just a slap in the face to fans everywhere, I'd be pissed if I stayed up till 4 am or whatever for a 'hyped match' and he pulled that bullshit.
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If anything Naniwa should of just played for the "Rivalry" between him and Nestea
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On December 15 2011 00:38 Rice wrote:
honestly naniwas behavior was just a slap in the face to fans everywhere, I'd be pissed if I stayed up till 4 am or whatever for a 'hyped match' and he pulled that bullshit.
I stayed up until 4 AM to watch these matches, and every single game naniwa played before this one was ridiculously entertaining. So I, personally, was not offended.
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Don't talk about soccer if you dont know what you're talking about ^^ .
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On December 15 2011 00:48 DreamChaser wrote:
If anything Naniwa should of just played for the "Rivalry" between him and Nestea
Assuming that Naniwa believes in this "rivalry"(which he doesn't), he wasn't able to play his best nor did he want to play in a game that didn't matter. It wouldn't of fueled in the "rivalry" at all.
The reason why I said he doesn't believe in this rivalry is because Naniwa only cares about winning tournaments.
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The concept of not trying in a "pointless match" is terrible.
Why wouldn't he try to beat NesTea legitimately for ranking at least (not being 0-4)
and so he could say I've beaten NesTea
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That was one of the most cluelessly biased articles I've ever read
Saying "What he did was short-sighted" and giving him flack for doing something wrong is pointless if it's not generally agreed that he fucked up
I'm all for what he did, it's no different from July going double-6pool vs moman in NASL when he secured a spot in the finals
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On December 14 2011 23:34 gwaihir wrote:
1# its called football (because you play it with the foot, not like your shitty football) NOT SOCCER
soccer is a ridiculous word you weird americans made for a thing that ALREADY HAD A NAME.....
The English dictionary would like to have a word with you.
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ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? I mean, SERIOUSLY? DID you seriously write this post OP ? This guy is putting hundreds of hours and an insane amount of energy, passion and immense dedication into this game and here you are, just judging him as if it didn't even matter. He SHOULD HAVE played the game. Omg that was so wrong, he shoulnd't have done this !
He was forced to play a game of no importance. He didn't agree to do this and I'm sure he knew what the potential consequences were. You can respect that. The guy won't stand for bullshit. This is admirable.
He could have played a game half-seriously but wouldn't that be a waste of time ? How could he do his best when the game had no real import ? What's the point of bashing a player for refusing to play a game that woulnd't be really exciting anyways because he had no real motivation to do his best ?
You spit on it because you are more willing to respect bullshit than to respect one of those guys who are most reponsible for the growth of e-sports. You seem to have no clue about where progamers come from and how their life looks like. You actually seem to disrespect this guy and you ascribe to him obligations that he completely shouldn't have.
Naniwa simply made a choice and it should be understood. It was a rational choice. Why should he take the responsibility for something that he wasn't responsible for ? He has no obligation to do so - in fact, it would be more accurate to say that he had an obligation to defend himself against bullshit, which he kind of did.
He isn't the immature one there and his punishment is an injustice, a facade of someone supporting "rules" that don't really serve their purpose... and certainly not e-sports...
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On December 15 2011 01:51 Symbioth wrote:
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? I mean, SERIOUSLY? DID you seriously write this post OP ? This guy is putting hundreds of hours and an insane amount of energy, passion and immense dedication into this game and here you are, just judging him as if it didn't even matter. He SHOULD HAVE played the game. Omg that was so wrong, he shoulnd't have done this !
He was forced to play a game of no importance. He didn't agree to do this and I'm sure he knew what the potential consequences were. You can respect that. The guy won't stand for bullshit. This is admirable.
He could have played a game half-seriously but wouldn't that be a waste of time ? How could he do his best when the game had no real import ? What's the point of bashing a player for refusing to play a game that woulnd't be really exciting anyways because he had no real motivation to do his best ?
You spit on it because you are more willing to respect bullshit than to respect one of those guys who are most reponsible for the growth of e-sports. You seem to have no clue about where progamers come from and how their life looks like. You actually seem to disrespect this guy and you ascribe to him obligations that he completely shouldn't have.
Naniwa simply made a choice and it should be understood. It was a rational choice. Why should he take the responsibility for something that he wasn't responsible for ? He has no obligation to do so - in fact, it would be more accurate to say that he had an obligation to defend himself against bullshit, which he kind of did.
He isn't the immature one there and his punishment is an injustice, a facade of someone supporting "rules" that don't really serve their purpose... and certainly not e-sports...
Professional athletes are forced to play games of no importance all the time. Professionals in general are forced to do things of no importance from time to time, and they do it because they are professionals. It's not like he was disobeying the rules for moral reasons, he just didn't want to play a [relatively] meaningless match.
Imagine if no one played games they didn't want to. Would it still be "admirable"? He has an obligation to do his best in every match so long as he's on a team, has sponsors, in tournaments, has opponents, and even fans sometimes. As long as he's considered a professional, he should act professionally -- sometimes it means biting the bullet for the people who allow you to play something you love for a living.
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Calgary25981 Posts
To people who open threads to post their opinion: You aren't special. Post your opinion in the threads existing like everyone else.
If we allow this, then it's going to turn into a shitshow. 800 page thread? "No one will read my comment, but I'm special, so I'll just open a new thread".
Not on my watch.
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EPT
