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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 01:29 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:25 LittleSpeedLing wrote:
I cannot believe that there are actually people out here who try to justify Naniwas actions. U can argue about the format of the Blizzard Cup of course but taking it as an legitimation is just foolish. Naniwa happily accepted his invitation and u can bet he would have happily taken the prize money. There are so many people who payed money for this tournament and there were even more fans looking forward to a rematch of him and Nestea. Not only was this action disrespectful to Neatea, who could not close out his tourney with a good game, but also to the whole production team of the event. It makes me feel sad and mad to watch a guy who thinks that he can destroy everyones event because it did not go well for himself. His behavior was selfish and more importantly a step backwards in trying to make SC2 and Esports an accepted professional sport.
You're assuming other players care to play a good game when they've lost and are out of the tournament. They don't, but they're also conscious of their self-image, and consider it better to play a half-assed game than to outright forfeit. NaNiWa didn't, and I respect that.
So Naniwa talked to Nestea and they both agreed to throw the game? Of course not. Who is he to decide whether Nestea or any other player cares to play out a game? Everyone who was or is an professional in sports will understand what huge of an disrespectful move this was today.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Oh dear Naniwa lol!
I can understand why you did it, but people turned up to see specific games, to see your rivalry (even if you dont think there is one) between you and nestea and have a game, then just do that people will get annoyed. But you didn't just do it at an MLG you decided to do it in Korea, in NesTea backyard, in the meccah of E-Sports, where its like watching Barcelona vs Real Madrid for the fans in the level of most people know whats going on.
You really need to think before you act, and formally apologise asap to all @ GOM. Mr Chae nearly blew a shit storm up when Jinro swore on the picks day!
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On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything.
I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'?
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In two weeks this will all be forgotten.
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On December 14 2011 01:35 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:34 SKYFISH_ wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 SKYFISH_ wrote:
sure, blame the player and not the format.
someone should tweet the koreans to man the fuck up and stop being such drama queens.
what, marineking wanted the opportunity to be 0-3 in his group as well and play a pointless match against nestea?
el-oh-el
give me a break, honestly, they are just jumping the hate bandwagon because the evil foreigner ''disrespected'' them.
this is coming from someone who doesnt particularly like naniwer, mind you
Yes, I'll just go ahead and blame a mistake in the tournament format instead of the human being who is presented with a choice of whether to put effort into something or not. if you leave a porkchop on the floor and your dog finds it and eats it who will you blame - yourself or the dog? Which is part of the reason we're not dogs... right?
im sorry, what?
dogs dont do stupid shit and then blame someone else for it?
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When you agree to play on a tournament, you agree to play by the rules, which means you agree to play every match. I agree that the best solution for this kind of thing is to simply not play those matches, but the format was already set, and when you're in the competition, you just play it out.
If any players thought this could be an issue, they should have directed their complaints and doubts to GOM, instead of disrespecting the tournaments, the opponents AND the public.
It's just bad... Whether the game was worth it or not is completely meaningless and beyond the point. He's a pro-gamer, emphasis on the PRO part. You're supposed to act as a professional. Koreans are right to be angry.
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On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'?
We obviously disagree.
Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously.
Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further?
Here, my turn:
1) Your analogy still doesn't work.
2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports.
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On December 14 2011 01:39 mordk wrote:
When you agree to play on a tournament, you agree to play by the rules, which means you agree to play every match. I agree that the best solution for this kind of thing is to simply not play those matches, but the format was already set, and when you're in the competition, you just play it out.
If any players thought this could be an issue, they should have directed their complaints and doubts to GOM, instead of disrespecting the tournaments, the opponents AND the public.
It's just bad... Whether the game was worth it or not is completely meaningless and beyond the point. He's a pro-gamer, emphasis on the PRO part. You're supposed to act as a professional. Koreans are right to be angry.
He played the game.
So what did he do wrong exactly?
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If I were a Korean progamer, I would have been PISSED. Competition there is fierce, and the game isn't as well received as brood war, meaning that those guys worked their asses off for recognition (and thus sponsorship). So many players were playing without salaries for a long time. So they take their opportunities seriously, and know that every game on stage counts in the eyes of fans and sponsors.
Then comes some foreigner with all the opportunities in the world and basically says "fuck you" to all the fans and sponsors involved. Even if the game is meaningless, at least play it out for the viewers sakes - the Packers are going to use 2nd and 3rd stringers in their last few games, and the Colts are playing with their starters, but the fact is they're still going to give it all they've got on the field. Not playing is insulting to everyone involved in the game, from the fans, to the sponsors, to your teammates and competitors. I'd be pretty upset if I were quantic.
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On December 14 2011 01:36 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition. The ramifications are totally different. If I don't let you get surgery on your busted knee, you could end up never walking again. If I play you in a game that has no meaning, an injury could force you to miss the next 10 games or even end your career. If I'm in 1st place and play the shit out of you, you might be too tired in the playoffs or as mentioned could suffer an unexpected injury. If I force you to play that extra Starcraft 2 match you could get really tired and sad....wait what?
You make your fans see you play a bad game, since you're unmotivated to play. Can you see farther than your nose and get that into your head already? Or maybe you can't, and you would need to see a whole lot more of this format before you'd get tired of all the half-assery by all of the players who have lost but are forced to continue playing, and the inevitable match-fixing that would occur when a teammate or friend that has no chance of winning plays one that does.
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I seriously don't see what's the big deal here. Why would players who are out of the tournament even go for another game?
Just go watch someone stream.
e. Now if there was a tie between the opponent and someone else it would be a different matter.
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On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition.
The difference you have described is that them playing a sub standard team would be the equilvilent of Naniwa just doing some shitty cannon rush or rush build to finsih the game early. But what Naniwa did was basically shoot(pass? I dont have any hockey knowledge) into his own goal from the off. Naniwa acted very childish and unprofessional (not to say he is a pro player)
Edit : on my phone so spelling is hard on a moving train
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I am not surprised after the shit he did at MLG, and this just proves he is a child unable to do anything but what he feels like at the moment.
Any reasonable person would know for a fact that Korea hates this kind of shit, and that GSL have a hard rule against throwing matches.
I would expect him to be banned from the GSL for a year or so because of this, and it's just well deserved.
What he should have done was 4 or 5 gate all in and gg when it fails.
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On December 14 2011 01:40 Sandster wrote:
If I were a Korean progamer, I would have been PISSED. Competition there is fierce, and the game isn't as well received as brood war, meaning that those guys worked their asses off for recognition (and thus sponsorship). So many players were playing without salaries for a long time. So they take their opportunities seriously, and know that every game on stage counts in the eyes of fans and sponsors.
Then comes some foreigner with all the opportunities in the world and basically says "fuck you" to all the fans and sponsors involved. Even if the game is meaningless, at least play it out for the viewers sakes - the Packers are going to use 2nd and 3rd stringers in their last few games, and the Colts are playing with their starters, but the fact is they're still going to give it all they've got on the field. Not playing is insulting to everyone involved in the game, from the fans, to the sponsors, to your teammates and competitors. I'd be pretty upset if I were quantic.
No. Few players in individual leagues would give it their all when they've already lost. We could have seen a bad game or none at all, and personally I'm glad we moved on to real competitive play between players who were still motivated.
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On December 14 2011 01:42 aebriol wrote:
What he should have done was 4 or 5 gate all in and gg when it fails.
So what's the difference?
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Just plain unacceptable. No matter the stakes, even if you're 0-3 down, like Nestea was, you play it out. But sitting with one hand on your head and the other on the mouse is a major disrespect. A disgrace torwards GSL, Nestea and eSports in general. I believe it would have been totally acceptable to forfeit, so he didn't make a waste of time to the viewers, casters and players, specially Nestea.
There's just so much you can get away with without punishment. I believe Naniwa just hit the mark where some form of punishment has to go down on him. He should be severely penalized.
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On December 14 2011 01:40 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:39 mordk wrote:
When you agree to play on a tournament, you agree to play by the rules, which means you agree to play every match. I agree that the best solution for this kind of thing is to simply not play those matches, but the format was already set, and when you're in the competition, you just play it out.
If any players thought this could be an issue, they should have directed their complaints and doubts to GOM, instead of disrespecting the tournaments, the opponents AND the public.
It's just bad... Whether the game was worth it or not is completely meaningless and beyond the point. He's a pro-gamer, emphasis on the PRO part. You're supposed to act as a professional. Koreans are right to be angry. He played the game. So what did he do wrong exactly?
..... He didn't play the game... If you think doing that is playing the game it's wrong. It's just throwing it.
If he intended not to play the game, he should have gone to NesTea and GOM before the match and said "I'm not playing this match, I forfeit". Doing what he did is both disrespectful to the competition and ridiculous.
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Dont hate the player, hate the game. it applies here.
Blame on gom for broadcasting mindless matches betwheen 2 players taht are 0-3 and with NOTHING on the line. if it is suposed to be a showmatch, then there should be a reward.
and if Korean progamers get angry, so with them.
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On December 14 2011 01:37 LittleSpeedLing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:29 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 01:25 LittleSpeedLing wrote:
I cannot believe that there are actually people out here who try to justify Naniwas actions. U can argue about the format of the Blizzard Cup of course but taking it as an legitimation is just foolish. Naniwa happily accepted his invitation and u can bet he would have happily taken the prize money. There are so many people who payed money for this tournament and there were even more fans looking forward to a rematch of him and Nestea. Not only was this action disrespectful to Neatea, who could not close out his tourney with a good game, but also to the whole production team of the event. It makes me feel sad and mad to watch a guy who thinks that he can destroy everyones event because it did not go well for himself. His behavior was selfish and more importantly a step backwards in trying to make SC2 and Esports an accepted professional sport.
You're assuming other players care to play a good game when they've lost and are out of the tournament. They don't, but they're also conscious of their self-image, and consider it better to play a half-assed game than to outright forfeit. NaNiWa didn't, and I respect that. So Naniwa talked to Nestea and they both agreed to throw the game? Of course not. Who is he to decide whether Nestea or any other player cares to play out a game? Everyone who was or is an professional in sports will understand what huge of an disrespectful move this was today.
so anytime a player does something cheesy, they should consult their opponent? What if Nestea 6 pool drone rushed Naniwa? Would you still be outraged?
I don't get the hate in this thread. His tournament life was over and he did a cheesy no brainer rush to get the game over with. Cry about it.
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On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports.
So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that.
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