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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 01:48 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:41 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 01:36 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition. The ramifications are totally different. If I don't let you get surgery on your busted knee, you could end up never walking again. If I play you in a game that has no meaning, an injury could force you to miss the next 10 games or even end your career. If I'm in 1st place and play the shit out of you, you might be too tired in the playoffs or as mentioned could suffer an unexpected injury. If I force you to play that extra Starcraft 2 match you could get really tired and sad....wait what? You make your fans see you play a bad game, since you're unmotivated to play. Can you see farther than your nose and get that into your head already? Or maybe you can't, and you would need to see a whole lot more of this format before you'd get tired of all the half-assery by all of the players who have lost but are forced to continue playing, and the inevitable match-fixing that would occur when a teammate or friend that has no chance of winning plays one that does. You mad bro? And I've already stated that my problem isn't so much with Naniwa as it is a large portion of the community (and other players) who think it's OK to half-ass games or throw matches in the finals of an online tournament when people have dedicated their time and money to watching them play. So yes, I can see farther than my nose, thanks. Just because a tournament is structured a certain way doesn't mean Naniwa as a professional needs to sink himself down, especially when that tournament is offering money to him regardless of his result. GOM is paying him anyway because they expect good games out of him regardless of whether he made it or not, because it boosts their ratings. It's important to the Koreans who train themselves way harder than the average foreigner, who are struggling their asses off to promote SC2 in a country that still clings to BW, in the hope that they can make their game just as successful. To do that, they need to earn fans however they can, so yes, they're very serious about entertaining the fans, as any professional sport would be that wants to bring more money in. He's unmotivated to play? Well then it's up to him to GET FUCKING MOTIVATED, especially when he's being paid money to play a fucking video game for a living. It's us as fans that make that possible, so he and alot of the other players who are actually condoning this need to have a little respect for his sponsors, his employers, and his audience. So while my opinion is based on overall perception and a long-term view of where e-sports should be heading, you choose to box this event within the context of a single tournament and one meaningless game. Who's the one who can't see past his nose?
No, you're mad, and at NaNiWa specifically, as is very evident by your numerous irate posts about this incident. Koreans are not any more motivated to play in these situations than he is, they are just more self-conscious about their PR and choose to play half-assed games. You're deluding yourself thinking otherwise.
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So if he had done a half-assed proxy or 4 gate or some onebasic shit it would be completly fine?
In up&down they skip the last match if it's not needed , just like they should do in other tournaments.
I agree with Nani that if you don't have anything to play for, it will reflect that on the game and how hard you try.
People need to stop thinking "ESPORTS THIS ESPORTS THAT" is a fragile bubble where one player, one match, that doesn't change ANYTHING will break it.
The kind of behavior some poeple, and especially koreans are showing reminds me of how it was in school where oyu had this one unpopular kid in school that got ignored but not really made fun of. But ignored enough that he didn't have a good time (ref the interview of how Nani felt he was left out of MVP-house). Now, this kid does something that, if anyone else had done it, it wouldn't matter, gets called out and loudmouthed (like the thumb down to NesTea, and now the proberush).
It seems like they are just waiting for a reason to loudmouth and talk down on Nani.
Sure, he might have his ups and downs, maybe a hard personality, but this is basically bullying.
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I don't ... I f****in don't understand why all those people like Choya, the MVP guys or even Nazgul doing like it's the end of world... Don't get me wrong Naniwa is a guy u hate or love... he polarises like no one else in the E-Sport "community"... but all those conceited, mannered guys (Choya... mannered ? oO) just think one moment what people want...
I don't think anybody would watch any Tournament if there were only teenish "men" with hair in their eyes playing a game and in the interview they're grining like your little 12 year old sister... we need the "hearth-drawind-HuK's" I totally agree with that but in my opinion.... for Chrissake we also need the Naniwa's or IdrA's...
And think about that: what would have happened if Naniwa would habe played his standard game against NesTea without any will to really play well... wouldn't it have been much more boring... do u all think the sponsors want boring games... do u really think the sponsors like it when viewers get bored by the 1.000 forge expand they're seeing.... C'mon....
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Russian Federation56 Posts
Huh, It's now me, who respects GOM and other koreans less for such attitude and all the trashtalks. He did what he did and overreacting is bad. I mean, it didn't hurt anyone, did it? They just take it way too seriously.
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On December 14 2011 01:55 Bouo wrote:
I watched, I laughed, I became a fan of Naniwa. Everyone else is just jumping on the hate naniwa bandwagon, get over yourselves. No one is making threads over players that pass up consolation matches at MLG and those are for actual money prizes. Don't make these threads for one player and not the other, it just shows your immature bias.
How many times do you think players have actually passed up consos at MLG?
Every single time it is reported a player forfeited a conso, it is almost always reported afterwards that they did not hear the call for the conso or had already left due to flight time restrictions and such. I can't even remember the last legitimate forfeit of a conso.
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On December 14 2011 01:57 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:48 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:41 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 01:36 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition. The ramifications are totally different. If I don't let you get surgery on your busted knee, you could end up never walking again. If I play you in a game that has no meaning, an injury could force you to miss the next 10 games or even end your career. If I'm in 1st place and play the shit out of you, you might be too tired in the playoffs or as mentioned could suffer an unexpected injury. If I force you to play that extra Starcraft 2 match you could get really tired and sad....wait what? You make your fans see you play a bad game, since you're unmotivated to play. Can you see farther than your nose and get that into your head already? Or maybe you can't, and you would need to see a whole lot more of this format before you'd get tired of all the half-assery by all of the players who have lost but are forced to continue playing, and the inevitable match-fixing that would occur when a teammate or friend that has no chance of winning plays one that does. You mad bro? And I've already stated that my problem isn't so much with Naniwa as it is a large portion of the community (and other players) who think it's OK to half-ass games or throw matches in the finals of an online tournament when people have dedicated their time and money to watching them play. So yes, I can see farther than my nose, thanks. Just because a tournament is structured a certain way doesn't mean Naniwa as a professional needs to sink himself down, especially when that tournament is offering money to him regardless of his result. GOM is paying him anyway because they expect good games out of him regardless of whether he made it or not, because it boosts their ratings. It's important to the Koreans who train themselves way harder than the average foreigner, who are struggling their asses off to promote SC2 in a country that still clings to BW, in the hope that they can make their game just as successful. To do that, they need to earn fans however they can, so yes, they're very serious about entertaining the fans, as any professional sport would be that wants to bring more money in. He's unmotivated to play? Well then it's up to him to GET FUCKING MOTIVATED, especially when he's being paid money to play a fucking video game for a living. It's us as fans that make that possible, so he and alot of the other players who are actually condoning this need to have a little respect for his sponsors, his employers, and his audience. So while my opinion is based on overall perception and a long-term view of where e-sports should be heading, you choose to box this event within the context of a single tournament and one meaningless game. Who's the one who can't see past his nose? No, you're mad, and at NaNiWa specifically, as is very evident by your numerous irate posts about this incident. Koreans are not any more motivated to play in these situations than he is, they are just more self-conscious about their PR and choose to play half-assed games. You're deluding yourself thinking otherwise.
Gee, I wonder why they're more self-conscious about public perception? If more players aren't, than I'll say good luck trying to make e-sports mainstream. Why shouldn't Naniwa, as a representative of SC2, e-sports, his team, his sponsors, care about the same? Once again, you seem to not be able to see past your nose.
And just because my view on things doesn't sync with yours or Naniwa's doesn't mean I'm mad. I have a strong opinion about it, and I stated it, nothing more.
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Lol, don't get start with this korean this and that... Different people will have different reactions. Just yesterday, we had some "foreigners" accusing MC of throwing his match to keep Stephano out with NO evidence. Would it be fair to say that All foreigns are raving maniacs? People have to remember, it is usually the most outrageous comments that gets passed on and translated.
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we should really start a poll for this
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On December 14 2011 01:58 chokke wrote:
So if he had done a half-assed proxy or 4 gate or some onebasic shit it would be completly fine?
In up&down they skip the last match if it's not needed , just like they should do in other tournaments.
I agree with Nani that if you don't have anything to play for, it will reflect that on the game and how hard you try.
People need to stop thinking "ESPORTS THIS ESPORTS THAT" is a fragile bubble where one player, one match, that doesn't change ANYTHING will break it.
If he had done it with the intent of winning and playing the game, it would have been completely fine of course.
I insist, if he wanted to forfeit, he should have talked to NesTea and GOM about it and just forfeit.
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hey all i can say is that atleast he tried instead of pulling a drewbie and suiciding your cc with your scvs if anyone still remembers that it wasnt as big of a deal cause the tourney was small and drewbie is not a big time deal but the principle is that same thing.. in the end i think it was silly but sorta of understandable, yeah i wouldn't do something like that if i was put in that position but i'm not naniwa also premature ggs from idra does that not counter the arguement of play the game out you have the obligation to the fans? i just hate the double standards naniwa gets if anyone else does something similar "its okay, it's part of their personality" naniwa does it's "he is an immature !@#$" he has had some rough times everyone has been giving him shit for his move from complexity which wasnt entirely his fault now he had poor showing in some games where he truly believes he should beat them. emotions got to him, was it excusable, no, but the amount of rage over this i think is silly.
my 2cents with no proper grammar whatsover and shit spelling so... qq
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On December 14 2011 01:44 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:42 aebriol wrote:
What he should have done was 4 or 5 gate all in and gg when it fails. So what's the difference?
Not making himself look like a childish moron, giving himself a chance, actually playing the game instead of not bothering, following the rules instead of ignoring them, and I could go on ...
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On December 14 2011 01:54 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:52 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:48 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that. Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history? Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir. No, please listen and then comprehend. This is the internet. Yes? The facts I have are whatever you choose to give me with the content you post. Based solely on this information I have available, I came to the conclusion you know very little about professional sports. If you typed a well done 3000 word essay about professional sports I could just as likely assume you know something about professional sports. Ah, so instead of pointing out how what I said was incorrect (that professional teams pull some of their better players in situations where there is risk of injury/no reward or the score is insanely high in comparison to the other team's) you simply stated that I know nothing about professional sports. You're right, that makes total sense.
Then allow me to point out your flaws 
It's true that in team sports sometimes better players are kept on the bench especially when the game is not important. It is also true that teams get routinely criticised for this. Nonetheless everybody acknowledges that there are good REASONS for doing it anyway. For instance to give practice time to younger players or to protect stars from injuries. None of these reasons apply in this case which already suffices to invalidate your point.
The "worst" you see in professional sports is that players treat unimportant games like practice games, which usually means that the action is less intense. What you don't usually see is one team intentionally throwing the game. And in any and all cases this behaviour is strongly frowned upon. What people dislike here is exactly that: Naniwa intentionally threw the game out of frustration and he did this openly for anybody to see. Now you can certainly say: "At least he wasn't a hypocrite", but sometimes merely not being a hypocrite is not enough by a long shot.
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On December 14 2011 02:09 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:54 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:52 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:48 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:
[quote]
Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have.
There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year.
Your analogy really doesn't play out.
In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that. Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history? Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir. No, please listen and then comprehend. This is the internet. Yes? The facts I have are whatever you choose to give me with the content you post. Based solely on this information I have available, I came to the conclusion you know very little about professional sports. If you typed a well done 3000 word essay about professional sports I could just as likely assume you know something about professional sports. Ah, so instead of pointing out how what I said was incorrect (that professional teams pull some of their better players in situations where there is risk of injury/no reward or the score is insanely high in comparison to the other team's) you simply stated that I know nothing about professional sports. You're right, that makes total sense. Then allow me to point out your flaws It's true that in team sports sometimes better players are kept on the bench especially when the game is not important. It is also true that teams get routinely criticised for this. Nonetheless everybody acknowledges that there are good REASONS for doing it anyway. For instance to give practice time to younger players or to protect stars from injuries. None of these reasons apply in this case which already suffices to invalidate your point. The "worst" you see in professional sports is that players treat unimportant games like practice games, which usually means that the action is less intense. What you don't usually see is one team intentionally throwing the game. And in any and all cases this behaviour is strongly frowned upon. What people dislike here is exactly that: Naniwa intentionally threw the game out of frustration and he did this openly for anybody to see. Now you can certainly say: "At least he wasn't a hypocrite", but sometimes merely not being a hypocrite is not enough by a long shot.
Well said.
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people questioning him being a progamer is fucking ridiculous. as a progamer it is not his JOB to be manner or ethical. it's his job to be good at sc2 and be competitive. though he had bad results today he is definitely both of those things. he works hard and he's damn good. you can't take that away from someone because they might not act the way you think they should
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It wasn't the more proffessional thing he could have done, but it's no worse than what some sports teams have done. Pittsburgh Penguins the NHL team threw an' entire season to get Mario...
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On December 14 2011 02:08 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:44 HwangjaeTerran wrote:On December 14 2011 01:42 aebriol wrote:
What he should have done was 4 or 5 gate all in and gg when it fails. So what's the difference? Not making himself look like a childish moron, giving himself a chance, actually playing the game instead of not bothering, following the rules instead of ignoring them, and I could go on ...
Probe rushing is a legit strategy though. I've lost to it a bunch of times on ladder.
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I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush?
EDIT: Think about end of the season football games... The teams that don't need the win only put their 2ndries and bench players. Are they giving the best game? No, so why should we need Naniwa to give his best as well, when there's nothing for him to earn? Grow up.
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On December 14 2011 02:11 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush?
You mean if he used a strat to try to win instead of not trying to win? Yeah that would've been a bit better I think.
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On December 14 2011 02:11 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush?
Completely irrelevant. Double-gate proxy can win games. You do it when you think you can win with it. 7 Probe rush loses to anything lol, it's not playing the game.
And yes, it's certainly OK to cheese.
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On December 14 2011 02:11 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:08 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 01:44 HwangjaeTerran wrote:On December 14 2011 01:42 aebriol wrote:
What he should have done was 4 or 5 gate all in and gg when it fails. So what's the difference? Not making himself look like a childish moron, giving himself a chance, actually playing the game instead of not bothering, following the rules instead of ignoring them, and I could go on ... Probe rushing is a legit strategy though. I've lost to it a bunch of times on ladder.
What league are you in? Bronze?
It's impossible to lose to if you are a decent player and not a moron. You have more workers than they have probes, you can't lose ...
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EPT
