|
Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 01:46 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:40 rblstr wrote:On December 14 2011 01:39 mordk wrote:
When you agree to play on a tournament, you agree to play by the rules, which means you agree to play every match. I agree that the best solution for this kind of thing is to simply not play those matches, but the format was already set, and when you're in the competition, you just play it out.
If any players thought this could be an issue, they should have directed their complaints and doubts to GOM, instead of disrespecting the tournaments, the opponents AND the public.
It's just bad... Whether the game was worth it or not is completely meaningless and beyond the point. He's a pro-gamer, emphasis on the PRO part. You're supposed to act as a professional. Koreans are right to be angry. He played the game. So what did he do wrong exactly? ..... He didn't play the game... If you think doing that is playing the game it's wrong. It's just throwing it. If he intended not to play the game, he should have gone to NesTea and GOM before the match and said "I'm not playing this match, I forfeit". Doing what he did is both disrespectful to the competition and ridiculous.
How do you know that he didnt do it? maybe he did and was denied. Wich given the way gom operates I wouldnt be surprsised (remember jinro in group selections)
|
On December 14 2011 01:47 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:37 LittleSpeedLing wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 01:25 LittleSpeedLing wrote:
I cannot believe that there are actually people out here who try to justify Naniwas actions. U can argue about the format of the Blizzard Cup of course but taking it as an legitimation is just foolish. Naniwa happily accepted his invitation and u can bet he would have happily taken the prize money. There are so many people who payed money for this tournament and there were even more fans looking forward to a rematch of him and Nestea. Not only was this action disrespectful to Neatea, who could not close out his tourney with a good game, but also to the whole production team of the event. It makes me feel sad and mad to watch a guy who thinks that he can destroy everyones event because it did not go well for himself. His behavior was selfish and more importantly a step backwards in trying to make SC2 and Esports an accepted professional sport.
You're assuming other players care to play a good game when they've lost and are out of the tournament. They don't, but they're also conscious of their self-image, and consider it better to play a half-assed game than to outright forfeit. NaNiWa didn't, and I respect that. So Naniwa talked to Nestea and they both agreed to throw the game? Of course not. Who is he to decide whether Nestea or any other player cares to play out a game? Everyone who was or is an professional in sports will understand what huge of an disrespectful move this was today. so anytime a player does something cheesy, they should consult their opponent? What if Nestea 6 pool drone rushed Naniwa? Would you still be outraged? I don't get the hate in this thread. His tournament life was over and he did a cheesy no brainer rush to get the game over with. Cry about it.
Nope, because if NesTea 6-pooled drone rushed nani, even that strat has a slight chance of winning. What nani did was the same as entering the game, then hitting F10 instantly and leaving. It's actually somewhat worse.
On December 14 2011 01:47 Usagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:46 mordk wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 rblstr wrote:On December 14 2011 01:39 mordk wrote:
When you agree to play on a tournament, you agree to play by the rules, which means you agree to play every match. I agree that the best solution for this kind of thing is to simply not play those matches, but the format was already set, and when you're in the competition, you just play it out.
If any players thought this could be an issue, they should have directed their complaints and doubts to GOM, instead of disrespecting the tournaments, the opponents AND the public.
It's just bad... Whether the game was worth it or not is completely meaningless and beyond the point. He's a pro-gamer, emphasis on the PRO part. You're supposed to act as a professional. Koreans are right to be angry. He played the game. So what did he do wrong exactly? ..... He didn't play the game... If you think doing that is playing the game it's wrong. It's just throwing it. If he intended not to play the game, he should have gone to NesTea and GOM before the match and said "I'm not playing this match, I forfeit". Doing what he did is both disrespectful to the competition and ridiculous. How do you know that he didnt do it? maybe he did and was denied. Wich given the way gom operates I wouldnt be surprsised (remember jinro in group selections)
Granted, I don't know. And if this is the case I retract my opinion. With what I know right now, I find it unacceptable.
|
On December 14 2011 01:41 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:36 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition. The ramifications are totally different. If I don't let you get surgery on your busted knee, you could end up never walking again. If I play you in a game that has no meaning, an injury could force you to miss the next 10 games or even end your career. If I'm in 1st place and play the shit out of you, you might be too tired in the playoffs or as mentioned could suffer an unexpected injury. If I force you to play that extra Starcraft 2 match you could get really tired and sad....wait what? You make your fans see you play a bad game, since you're unmotivated to play. Can you see farther than your nose and get that into your head already? Or maybe you can't, and you would need to see a whole lot more of this format before you'd get tired of all the half-assery by all of the players who have lost but are forced to continue playing, and the inevitable match-fixing that would occur when a teammate or friend that has no chance of winning plays one that does.
You mad bro?
And I've already stated that my problem isn't so much with Naniwa as it is a large portion of the community (and other players) who think it's OK to half-ass games or throw matches in the finals of an online tournament when people have dedicated their time and money to watching them play. So yes, I can see farther than my nose, thanks. Just because a tournament is structured a certain way doesn't mean Naniwa as a professional needs to sink himself down, especially when that tournament is offering money to him regardless of his result.
GOM is paying him anyway because they expect good games out of him regardless of whether he made it or not, because it boosts their ratings. It's important to the Koreans who train themselves way harder than the average foreigner, who are struggling their asses off to promote SC2 in a country that still clings to BW, in the hope that they can make their game just as successful. To do that, they need to earn fans however they can, so yes, they're very serious about entertaining the fans, as any professional sport would be that wants to bring more money in. He's unmotivated to play? Well then it's up to him to GET FUCKING MOTIVATED, especially when he's being paid money to play a fucking video game for a living. It's us as fans that make that possible, so he and alot of the other players who are actually condoning this need to have a little respect for his sponsors, his employers, and his audience.
So while my opinion is based on overall perception and a long-term view of where e-sports should be heading, you choose to box this event within the context of a single tournament and one meaningless game. Who's the one who can't see past his nose?
|
On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that.
Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history?
Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir.
|
All you people saying you would prefer him to play a bad game than forfeit can't see longer than your nose. If this kind of format were more prevalent you'd be complaining about all the bad games and matchmaking you would see.
You're not thinking far, and apparently you like to watch bad games.
|
If nestea had 6 pooled, nani wohld have had a chance....so its not a thrown game, just a low percentage meta game play :-D
|
I don't see any problems with it, if the players already are knocked out they shouldn't have to play anymore. It's not like he's the first one to do it. Seems like the community enjoys hating on Naniwa for everything he does. If IdrA had done this people probably would've praised him for it.
|
On December 14 2011 01:48 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that. Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history? Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir.
No, please listen and then comprehend. This is the internet. Yes? The facts I have are whatever you choose to give me with the content you post. Based solely on this information I have available, I came to the conclusion you know very little about professional sports. If you typed a well done 3000 word essay about professional sports I could just as likely assume you know something about professional sports.
|
On December 14 2011 01:49 Giriath wrote:
All you people saying you would prefer him to play a bad game than forfeit can't see longer than your nose. If this kind of format were more prevalent you'd be complaining about all the bad games and matchmaking you would see.
You're not thinking far, and apparently you like to watch bad games.
The problem is he didn't forfeit. He started a game with a ridiculous plan of throwing it after he, by entering the tournament, AGREED to the format. I wouldn't care if he had asked to forfeit beforehand, but the way he did things is just wrong and disrespectful.
|
And we call this E "sports"
|
Blaming the system instead of Naniwa for his actions is stupid. As a grown man and a professional it's his responsibility to play his best in a tournament match. Play the one game out, try your best and then criticise the system after that if you must.
|
On December 14 2011 01:52 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:48 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that. Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history? Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir. No, please listen and then comprehend. This is the internet. Yes? The facts I have are whatever you choose to give me with the content you post. Based solely on this information I have available, I came to the conclusion you know very little about professional sports. If you typed a well done 3000 word essay about professional sports I could just as likely assume you know something about professional sports.
Ah, so instead of pointing out how what I said was incorrect (that professional teams pull some of their better players in situations where there is risk of injury/no reward or the score is insanely high in comparison to the other team's) you simply stated that I know nothing about professional sports.
You're right, that makes total sense.
|
Really hope this play get popular on the ladder:>
|
I watched, I laughed, I became a fan of Naniwa. Everyone else is just jumping on the hate naniwa bandwagon, get over yourselves. No one is making threads over players that pass up consolation matches at MLG and those are for actual money prizes. Don't make these threads for one player and not the other, it just shows your immature bias.
|
On December 14 2011 01:54 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:52 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:48 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that. Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history? Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir. No, please listen and then comprehend. This is the internet. Yes? The facts I have are whatever you choose to give me with the content you post. Based solely on this information I have available, I came to the conclusion you know very little about professional sports. If you typed a well done 3000 word essay about professional sports I could just as likely assume you know something about professional sports. Ah, so instead of pointing out how what I said was incorrect (that professional teams pull some of their better players in situations where there is risk of injury/no reward or the score is insanely high in comparison to the other team's) you simply stated that I know nothing about professional sports. You're right, that makes total sense.
Yes...
|
I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!
Imo, nani should've just forfeited the match beforehand if he was on such serious tilt. He had 30 minutes to come up with this optimal decision.
|
On December 14 2011 01:44 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:40 Sandster wrote:
If I were a Korean progamer, I would have been PISSED. Competition there is fierce, and the game isn't as well received as brood war, meaning that those guys worked their asses off for recognition (and thus sponsorship). So many players were playing without salaries for a long time. So they take their opportunities seriously, and know that every game on stage counts in the eyes of fans and sponsors.
Then comes some foreigner with all the opportunities in the world and basically says "fuck you" to all the fans and sponsors involved. Even if the game is meaningless, at least play it out for the viewers sakes - the Packers are going to use 2nd and 3rd stringers in their last few games, and the Colts are playing with their starters, but the fact is they're still going to give it all they've got on the field. Not playing is insulting to everyone involved in the game, from the fans, to the sponsors, to your teammates and competitors. I'd be pretty upset if I were quantic. No. Few players in individual leagues would give it their all when they've already lost. We could have seen a bad game or none at all, and personally I'm glad we moved on to real competitive play between players who were still motivated.
You're not playing for yourself; you're playing for the fans (and indirectly, the sponsors and other pros). So yes, you go through the motion even if you don't want to be there. There are subpar games all the time, and people play below 100% all the time (illness, jetlag, family stuff, etc). You don't stop playing simply because you'd give a "subpar game". If you really don't want to be there, then 4gate, show some exciting micro, and move on with life.
Naniwa is PAID to PLAY the game. His feelings towards the game not withstanding, he has an obligation to play, out of respect for the game.
|
On December 14 2011 01:53 BaekHo wrote:
And we call this E "sports"
Well, considering similar situations like this has happen in other sports, and way fucking worse things too, I don't see why not.
It is so funny how delusional people are that throw around that unoptimistic crap.
|
|
|
Obviously, the format was not optimal. Actually, I think for the up and downs, GSL doesn't play out the meaningless games. However, I think it was different this time because it was a special event with supposedly all the top players in the world and it was for the fans as well. So GOM's rules were slightly different. Naniwa knew this and he choose to participate. He could have turned down the tournament. Since he agreed, he at least should here tried.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
