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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 01:27 SKYFISH_ wrote:
sure, blame the player and not the format.
someone should tweet the koreans to man the fuck up and stop being such drama queens.
what, marineking wanted the opportunity to be 0-3 in his group as well and play a pointless match against nestea?
el-oh-el
give me a break, honestly, they are just jumping the hate bandwagon because the evil foreigner ''disrespected'' them.
this is coming from someone who doesnt particularly like naniwer, mind you
Yes, I'll just go ahead and blame a mistake in the tournament format instead of the human being who is presented with a choice of whether to put effort into something or not.
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On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning.
Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have.
There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year.
Your analogy really doesn't play out.
In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead.
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On December 14 2011 01:25 LittleSpeedLing wrote:
I cannot believe that there are actually people out here who try to justify Naniwas actions. U can argue about the format of the Blizzard Cup of course but taking it as an legitimation is just foolish. Naniwa happily accepted his invitation and u can bet he would have happily taken the prize money. There are so many people who payed money for this tournament and there were even more fans looking forward to a rematch of him and Nestea. Not only was this action disrespectful to Neatea, who could not close out his tourney with a good game, but also to the whole production team of the event. It makes me feel sad and mad to watch a guy who thinks that he can destroy everyones event because it did not go well for himself. His behavior was selfish and more importantly a step backwards in trying to make SC2 and Esports an accepted professional sport.
You're assuming other players care to play a good game when they've lost and are out of the tournament. They don't, but they're also conscious of their self-image, and consider it better to play a half-assed game than to outright forfeit.
NaNiWa didn't, and I respect that.
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On December 14 2011 01:25 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:22 SC2NeCro wrote:
Reddit and the Korean media/fans are really going to destroy this community down the road. They make ridiculous drama out of absolutely nothing (when deserved Drama is fine) but blowing it out of proportion time and time again, it's shameful. I agree, it's ridiculous.
Everyone knows Reddit fans are retarded, so we should just laugh and smile to them in the hope of keeping them happy.
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On December 14 2011 01:28 mordk wrote:
How can people justify Nani's actions?.. No matter the stakes, you play the game out, as well as you can. If there's nothing at stake, just play it out. It's a disgrace towards NesTea, GSL, and Pro gaming. He should be penalized, at least 1 or 2 seasons banned from GSL competitions.
He can do whatever he wants. He broke no rules and if GSL banned him then that would reflect really bad on GSL. But they won't, because they don't really care.
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Honestly I think the blame here is to be laid on GOM for making them play the match and I'll try my best to explain why.
The closest thing in professional sports that this can be compared to, in my opinion of course, is a shootout in hockey. Little background for those who have no idea what im talking about. Essentially when a game is tied after a brief overtime period the game will go to a shootout. NHL rules state you get 3 shooters and if its still tied after that then its sudden death.
A situation that constantly happens is one team A will score 2 goals with its first 2 shooters while team B gets 0 with their first 2, meaning team A has won even though their is one shooter left for each team. Does the NHL make them play the shootout out for the "sake of the game" or "the fans who've paid money to be there" not at all because the game is over and its completly pointless because theres no reason for the goalie or shooter to try (other then personally statistics and other meaning junk).
Both Nani and Nestea were eliminated at this point so why make them play it out? I agree Nani could have done it better, with some sort of proxy 2 gate or 4 gate, but why waste everyone's time by dragging on some meaningless game that has no implications on anything. As a fan of booth Nani and Nestea the last thing I want to see is one (or both) players wasting time playing a game they don't care about.
Anyway my 2 cents
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On December 14 2011 01:29 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:25 LittleSpeedLing wrote:
I cannot believe that there are actually people out here who try to justify Naniwas actions. U can argue about the format of the Blizzard Cup of course but taking it as an legitimation is just foolish. Naniwa happily accepted his invitation and u can bet he would have happily taken the prize money. There are so many people who payed money for this tournament and there were even more fans looking forward to a rematch of him and Nestea. Not only was this action disrespectful to Neatea, who could not close out his tourney with a good game, but also to the whole production team of the event. It makes me feel sad and mad to watch a guy who thinks that he can destroy everyones event because it did not go well for himself. His behavior was selfish and more importantly a step backwards in trying to make SC2 and Esports an accepted professional sport.
You're assuming other players care to play a good game when they've lost and are out of the tournament. They don't, but they're also conscious of their self-image, and consider it better to play a half-assed game than to outright forfeit. NaNiWa didn't, and I respect that.
Then at least go for a mothership!
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GSL should ban him for this season.
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Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition.
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On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead.
1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me.
2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football.
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Im so dissapointed in IMMVP, how can he say something like that?
i used to have respect for him, but to totally disregard naniwas feelings and insulting him in such a idiotic fashion have really made me change my mind about him.
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On December 14 2011 01:29 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:27 SKYFISH_ wrote:
sure, blame the player and not the format.
someone should tweet the koreans to man the fuck up and stop being such drama queens.
what, marineking wanted the opportunity to be 0-3 in his group as well and play a pointless match against nestea?
el-oh-el
give me a break, honestly, they are just jumping the hate bandwagon because the evil foreigner ''disrespected'' them.
this is coming from someone who doesnt particularly like naniwer, mind you
Yes, I'll just go ahead and blame a mistake in the tournament format instead of the human being who is presented with a choice of whether to put effort into something or not.
if you leave a porkchop on the floor and your dog finds it and eats it who will you blame - yourself or the dog?
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On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 Charger wrote:
We all want esports to get closer to real sports right? Tell me the last time you saw two 1-10 american football teams who have nothing to play for just forfeit the game, play all their scrub players, etc? Oh what, that doesn't happen...how strange. It's because they have a little fucking something called pride. Pride in what they do for a living. They know that no matter what the 'prize', you fucking play hard for the sake of doing your best and hopefully winning and damn the rest of it.
It's often times like these real athletes show their true colors. It's easy as hell to play your best when you have the chance to win something. The real competitors/winners and the guys with heart and who have pride in their work would have played that game to win for sake of winning. Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have. There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year. Your analogy really doesn't play out. In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football.
I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned.
Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything.
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Australia18228 Posts
On December 14 2011 01:25 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:22 Inflicted_ wrote:On December 14 2011 01:05 grobo wrote:On December 14 2011 00:52 CanucksJC wrote:
I dunno if this has been posted but
@MKPS2
I wonder what all the gamers, who wanted to be on that stage, thought after this game.... I myself wanted this opportunity really badly.
@IM_NesTea_
After calming myself down after playing terribly, the opponent does something even more crazy.
@MVPGuineapig
There are many other players that wanted to play in that league, but couldn't. Is he mocking all of us?
@SC2MVP
The thing that makes me angry the most is that NesTea was practicing past midnight, even though it was his birthday... Things shouldn't have been this way.
@SC2MVP
I'm glad that Quantic and Complexity made that deal. He could have been staying at our team house... That was the most disappointing game as at SC2 fan. Pretty much all of their posts are irrelevant since they are making it look like nani threw away ALL his games, thus wasting space when players like MKPS2 could have played instead. This was not the case as Naniwa played all three earlier games to the best of his ability, he only threw the last game that didn't matter and that had zero impact on whether or not MKPS2 or other players lost an opportunity. It was a shitty thing to do to Nestea, i'll give them that, but the rest is just sensationalist "we are holier than thou"-posts The original Arena of Legends was filled with cheesy strategies that were extremely disappointing for the viewer experience, with most of it coming from MKP himself... and this was a tournament that was only seen by paying customers. I don't think he has the right to complain about another player ignoring the fan's expectations. Don't talk rubbish, MKP fans (me included) loved his victory in that tournament. He provided such great tense moments with his inventive strategies. People were looking forward to the grudge match between Naniwa and Nestea after all the hype, and felt lost because all we learned is that Nestea can a-move workers.
And people were looking forward to a back and forth match between him and MMA but it resulted in a bunch of retarded strategies that had no proper thought put into it or any attempt at metagaming. I'm not trying to target MKP, as some of the other programers that participated in these events didn't put their 100% into these games as well, yet they aren't receiving any hate or backlash so it seems like all this drama is only surfacing because Naniwa is involved.
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On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition.
Well said.
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On December 14 2011 01:34 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:29 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:27 SKYFISH_ wrote:
sure, blame the player and not the format.
someone should tweet the koreans to man the fuck up and stop being such drama queens.
what, marineking wanted the opportunity to be 0-3 in his group as well and play a pointless match against nestea?
el-oh-el
give me a break, honestly, they are just jumping the hate bandwagon because the evil foreigner ''disrespected'' them.
this is coming from someone who doesnt particularly like naniwer, mind you
Yes, I'll just go ahead and blame a mistake in the tournament format instead of the human being who is presented with a choice of whether to put effort into something or not. if you leave a porkchop on the floor and your dog finds it and eats it who will you blame - yourself or the dog?
Which is part of the reason we're not dogs... right?
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On December 14 2011 01:33 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
Im so dissapointed in IMMVP, how can he say something like that?
i used to have respect for him, but to totally disregard naniwas feelings and insulting him in such a idiotic fashion have really made me change my mind about him.
I think u mistook IMMvP with the MVP team, IMMvP just said "WTF -.-"
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On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition.
The ramifications are totally different. If I don't let you get surgery on your busted knee, you could end up never walking again. If I play you in a game that has no meaning, an injury could force you to miss the next 10 games or even end your career. If I'm in 1st place and play the shit out of you, you might be too tired in the playoffs or as mentioned could suffer an unexpected injury. If I force you to play that extra Starcraft 2 match you could get really tired and sad....wait what?
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On December 14 2011 01:33 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
Im so dissapointed in IMMVP, how can he say something like that?
i used to have respect for him, but to totally disregard naniwas feelings and insulting him in such a idiotic fashion have really made me change my mind about him.
MVP only said "WTF"? :o, I think you're mistaking him with team MVP
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So what if naniwa gave everything in that last meaningless match? Nobody would have talked about it because it was unimportant anyway. But in the world of 'esports' things like 'BM' get blown way out of proportion.
And like some person above me said, others might have played the game acting like they cared about fans and whatever. But its their job, most players only care about winning and prize money. Human beings are selfish by nature. I respect Naniwa for not being a hypocrite and not pretending he cares about an unimportant game.
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EPT
