|
Don't say Corruptors, everybody should know by now they are not an option.
1) They offer nothing to fight the standing army once the colossi have been dealt with, as we have seen over and over in pro games.
2) They are weak vs basically every non-colossus unit.
Void rays, stalkers and archons all kill corruptors a lot faster than corruptors kill colossi, so to even send them in, one must support his corruptors with a donated ground army.
3) Corruptors just aren't that good against Colossi... or anything else for that matter.
Corruptors deal 14(+6vs massive) damage a shot with a 1.9 sec CD. This amounts to about 10 DPS. For reference, Roaches do 7.5 DPS and Stalkers do 8 vs armored units. When 6 colossi threaten to wipe ou your entire army in <10 seconds, no amount of corruptors can kill them fast enough.
I think those 3 points solve any corruptor arguments, so let's move on to the other Zerg options.
The Infestor
While the Infestor used to act as a hard counter to colossi and offered general utilty vs everything else, Blizzard decided Zerg shouldn't have good units so they slapped the infestor with a double nerf after having just barely made them viable.
While I did not disagree with the fungal nerf, the NP nerf seemed excessive and unnecessary.
Currently, NP at 7 range is all but worthless and fungal growth never countered the colossus itself, rather it gives options vs other units effectively allowing Zerg to dump resources here and not die to the rest of Ps army (the corruptor syndrome).
A BADASS GROUND ARMY (everything from lings to ultras)
Unless Z has the economy to bury his opponent in money, he generally won't have a favorable engagement for targetting Colossi down given that:
1) Colossi hard counter lings and hydras
2) Stalkers take up a lot of room and have blink, and therefore make great mobile walls between Zs army and the colossus
3) Forcefields make even better walls.
Bane Rain
I would lump this in the same category as fungal, it obviously works very well in tandem with that ability. Great against everything else, not so great against the Colossus itself.
Mutas
Probably the best option currently?
Mutas, in modern play, make Colossi a non-issue because they can't shoot up. That being said, Mutas are hard to transition both into and out of.
Rushing is risky and tech switching to them in the late game demands that Z save up well over 1k gas (often 2k+) because small numbers of mutalisks are ineffective. Once Z has gone mutas, he is generally stuck with that tech until the game has been determined one way or another. Mutas can easily devour 4 bases worth of gas and keeping number high is critically important, once you start, you don't have the gas to switch to anything else.
So, I'm not trying to kick up a whine-fest, and I hope this thread produces some decent discussion. I just want to ask the question "Does Zerg have a counter to the Colossus?"
|
|
|
Don't tell me not to say corruptors. They counter colossus, they're clearly even from what you've described, Zerg's best option.
The other thing you need to do to supplement corruptors is make sure the rest of your army *doesn't die that fast*. i.e. not too many hydras or lings, a lot of roach, and a lot of lines of attack so colossi don't splash too much.
It's how zerg has managed for the last year, don't just disregard it and say there are no options.
|
Ah hell, you're right.
Mod plz move to strategy section.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
More bases + Harass + Punish immobility?
Don't really see why you'd ever try to beat a Colossi ball without the ability to instantly remax
|
Be 2x better than your opponent.
|
it is corruptors? I don't understand...
|
Considering how corruptors rape Collo, I'm gonna go with corruptors.
They have this ability called corruption that nobody uses but it's actually pretty good too.
Btw the first two lines about the infestor got me a good laugh and stopped reading there.
|
The best counter ! MMmmm The corruptor ?
But seriously, all the units can beat the collosis. Zergling can beat collosis when they are surround and even drones can beat lonely colosis.
|
Corruptors only work at this situation:
Be 2x better than your opponent.
I personally found that ground banelings can dish a considerable amount of damage. Having several of them on ovies helps too, but you will need to find a way to deal with the FFs so the banelings can do their job.
|
On November 16 2011 01:30 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Don't tell me not to say corruptors. They counter colossus, they're clearly even from what you've described, Zerg's best option.
The other thing you need to do to supplement corruptors is make sure the rest of your army *doesn't die that fast*. i.e. not too many hydras or lings, a lot of roach, and a lot of lines of attack so colossi don't splash too much.
It's how zerg has managed for the last year, don't just disregard it and say there are no options.
This is the right answer.
Can't disregard the designed counter and ask for the counter. You can say that you're looking for another way to deal w/ colossi that doesn't force BL tech to make use of the extra corruptors, but not that Zerg can't kill colossi.
|
Dude, this has been gone over a million times, it's not like the infestor/broodlord deathball has a counter either, you have to kill it in other ways like other posters have described.
|
Don't listen to idra. Corrupters work fine. Just don't max on hydra roach corrupter, attack off creep, and expect to beat collosus stalker sentry ht. Trade units.
|
@lichter
That is exactly where I am trying to target.
Given the ability to instantly remax, if one does not kill at least half of his opponents colossus in the first wave, it is unlikely Zerg will ever win that fight due to the mechanics of remaxing and how fast colossus kill stuff.
What would that first-wave army consist of so that one could kill the colossus, and have time to remax before P outright kills them?
|
On November 16 2011 01:27 Jermstuddog wrote:
1) They offer nothing to fight the standing army once the colossi have been dealt with, as we have seen over and over in pro games.
Don't over-produce corrupters....
This thread just sounds like you have an inability to micro your corrupters within your zerg ball
|
zerg was never meant to a-move into a deathball and win. Learn to catch units out of position and/or flank with corruptors etc.
|
On November 16 2011 01:36 MassacrisM wrote:Corruptors only work at this situation: I personally found that ground banelings can dish a considerable amount of damage. Having several of them on ovies helps too, but you will need to find a way to deal with the FFs so the banelings can do their job.
In supply terms, Zerg has always had to double macro a Protoss. Against some compositions, it's even more. Not that big a deal.
|
This should go in the strategy forum (with 1500 posts, shouldn't you know that by now?). That aside, I don't think that you're approaching the problem in the right way. You shouldn't just look for "what unit will counter his unit?" you should heed lichter's advice and deal with the strategic weaknesses of the Protoss Colossus Ball by using harassment options to punish the inability for the ball to be able to be split up.
So, I guess the answer is no, there is no magical unit composition that will just crush Colossus. You're going to have to think about how all the aspects of the game work in a broader context than just max vs. max armies.
|
The Viper? :p
But seriously just make peace with the fact that we have no real answer to it. Mutas and infestors are both good, viable tech paths that can deal with collossi based armies, as proven by a lot of pro gamers.
|
Roaches do 8 dps without upgrades and stalkers do 9.7 dps vs armored.
The reason a MAXED Protoss wipes out a Zerg army maxed on Roaches and Corrupters is because the Zerg army costs about 2/3 of the Protoss army. Roaches and Corrupters do fine vs Protoss balls in equal army costs.
Go Broodlords with Infestor support vs a maxed Protoss ball. They basically counter every ground army Protoss ball.
|
I guess its pointless, I give all the reasons why corruptors don't work. Pro games have shown for a full year that corruptors don't work. And still, somehow, people say the corruptor.
Close the thread mods, its trash before the first page is done.
|
On November 16 2011 01:42 Jermstuddog wrote:
I guess its pointless, I give all the reasons why corruptors don't work. Pro games have shown for a full year that corruptors don't work. And still, somehow, people say the corruptor.
Close the thread mods, its trash before the first page is done.
Yeah better close this thread, since everyone has given you reasons why they work and you refuse to accept any while quoting plain numbers.. ie. theorycrafting
|
Learn to micro better, learn where to engage, learn to split units to minimise splash. Corruptors do a decent job, but surprise surprise, you might have to go t3 to stand a chance against their t3. Don't tell me that going to t3 is too expensive as a Zerg - colossi need a 200/200 upgrade to function too.
Naturally a simple retard machine like the colossus is harder to beat than to use, but it was designed just like that. Same goes for banelings, it's the Terran that has to pull out the micro tricks to come out the winner.
|
On November 16 2011 01:31 lichter wrote:
More bases + Harass + Punish immobility?
Don't really see why you'd ever try to beat a Colossi ball without the ability to instantly remax
easier than done actually.
It's not like I haven't seen kr pro zerg's stream who get roll'd by colossus pushes because there were too little colossus and corruptors doing nothing or the toss transitioned into mass gateway style and just had a huge reinforcement wave to follow up.
|
On November 16 2011 01:27 Jermstuddog wrote:
Don't say Corruptors, everybody should know by now they are not an option.
[...]
well i really dislike posts start with "help me but NOT tell me ..."
corrupters ARE a great counter but not ONLY its not like you ONLY build them not like you always build them but sometimes they are by far the BEST counter ...
how you expect guys helping you with starting "help me but not THIS way ..."
when people tell you that corrupter work you get pissed say "close this tread mods" etc ... this acting is childish and then all that happens is that the visitors reading this are even more against your side and you look like ... you know ? its not the most clever way to act as NO progamer telling way better gamers why all what they do is sucking
|
I'd have to argue against you, the great advantage you have by going corruptors is that the colossus count will be so diminished that the zerg will reinforce their regular army so much faster that the disadvantage of not hitting ground is eliminated. Essentially it's similar to playing vs terran if you have to get maxed out. You sort of trade armies, taking his expensive powerful units and the critical mass effect in exchange for your lower tier units.
|
On November 16 2011 01:27 Jermstuddog wrote:
Don't say Corruptors, everybody should know by now they are not an option.
1) They offer nothing to fight the standing army once the colossi have been dealt with, as we have seen over and over in pro games.
I'm a little confused as to what you want?
They deal with colossi and therefore are the counter.
|
On November 16 2011 01:42 Jermstuddog wrote:
I guess its pointless, I give all the reasons why corruptors don't work. Pro games have shown for a full year that corruptors don't work. And still, somehow, people say the corruptor.
Close the thread mods, its trash before the first page is done.
Corrupter/roach w/ a ground-army specific composition. It's been said in this thread already.
Overmake corrupters, but morph some into BL. It's been said in this thread already.
|
On November 16 2011 01:46 Arjofski wrote:
On November 16 2011 01:27 Jermstuddog wrote:
Don't say Corruptors, everybody should know by now they are not an option.
1) They offer nothing to fight the standing army once the colossi have been dealt with, as we have seen over and over in pro games.
I'm a little confused as to what you want?
They deal with colossi and therefore are the counter.
also seems he never heared of broodlords 
just having 20 spine crawlers give you alot of time to morph them and alot of hatches you can reproduce etc ... just not overproduce cors ... but since he already gave up this forum why i still try to help ...
or like: the NP nerf seemed excessive and unnecessary.
you say it from YOUR view ... ok but dont GENERALIZISE it ... you sound like you are gsl top3 and wonder why you cant win the shit but its just the fact sometimes SKILL is needed !
ps: ok listen, go muta every game, colossi is no counter against it 
|
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi.
|
also btw there is not "1 unit 100% counter colossi and everything near to it" you say this is bad vs colossi cause there is this and this is bad cause there is this
you also need more tehn 1 unit type ...
|
Get a fast third and keep Protoss on two bases as long as possible. Tech up while keeping him contained and well-scouted. If you can hit BL tech before the deathball moves out, get the Infestor/Broodlord deathball going. If not, spam out a good number of Corruptors to kill the Colossi.
Alternately, get Mutas, force the Protoss to turtle, and get a lot of money while harassing.
|
I loled at this question! Specially when Protoss have started to find it difficult to handle Zerg lately.. But then here is my reason to go corrupters.
Since Zergs have been focussing on infestor,corrupter, blord combo. It makes sense to somehow use roach hydra corrupter to try and defend the deathball and then transistion.
|
On November 16 2011 01:50 HypernovA wrote:
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi.
terran units are more supply efficient than zerg and arguably toss as well
|
On November 16 2011 01:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:50 HypernovA wrote:
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi. terran units are more supply efficient than zerg and arguably toss as well
It doesn't matter, you still need vikings/corrupters to deal with colossi. Vikings are inefficient; they really can't do much after the colossi are dead so its still supply that could have been put into ghosts/medivacs/bio
|
I don't understand why threads like this proliferate on TL to such an extent. They have an absolutely predictable pattern: OP declares something that they clearly know won't generally be agreed with by the community. OP is generally disagreed with by the community. On page 2 or so, OP requests his own thread be closed because the community is too stupid to agree with him.
If it were actually impossible for Zergs to handle Colossi, Protoss would be utterly dominating Zerg by simply turtling into mass Colossi like they were doing in the months after release. That's not happening any more: Obviously you're missing something. As a Protoss player, I can tell you that Corruptors are absolutely a good counter to Colossi. Just use them correctly and as part of the right composition, and you're fine.
Also, it's really funny that you declare that Corruptors don't count as being good against Colossi because they're not good against other units. That makes them boring, but it doesn't actually make any sense as an argument. You do actually need different units in your army, not just one thing that kills everything.
|
Probably ultras or broodlords, the problem is getting to them safely while having the econ to support them.
|
On November 16 2011 01:44 shadymmj wrote:
Learn to micro better, learn where to engage, learn to split units to minimise splash. Corruptors do a decent job, but surprise surprise, you might have to go t3 to stand a chance against their t3. Don't tell me that going to t3 is too expensive as a Zerg - colossi need a 200/200 upgrade to function too.
Naturally a simple retard machine like the colossus is harder to beat than to use, but it was designed just like that. Same goes for banelings, it's the Terran that has to pull out the micro tricks to come out the winner.
the t3 thing is not compareable tough.
How long does it take a protoss to get a couple collosi out?
Now how long does it takes for the zerg to get the hive out? not to mention the tech buildings after that.
|
On November 16 2011 01:50 HypernovA wrote:
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi.
Not that I support the OP's full arguments...
But Vikings have range 9, corruptors have range 6. Vikings do not have to entirely commit to snipe colossi, and their long range controls space considerably better. Not to mention that they are cheaper and do 14 DPS vs armored air. The ability to land and contribute more DPS to the battle once the colossi are gone is just icing on the cake (they also do 12 dps to ground, which really isn't that bad at all).
The Viking is a vastly superior unit.
|
On November 16 2011 01:57 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:56 ETisME wrote:On November 16 2011 01:50 HypernovA wrote:
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi. terran units are more supply efficient than zerg and arguably toss as well It doesn't matter, you still need vikings/corrupters to deal with colossi. Vikings are inefficient; they really can't do much after the colossi are dead so its still supply that could have been put into ghosts/medivacs/bio
well yea, if you are only refering to how to counter colossus.
But the question is how to gain a better position after the engagement.
Zerg loses to colossus push either to not having enough to deal with colossus
or
having too much and just can't handle the ground and lose to one big warp in.
Terran rarely lose to a colossus deathball (high level) because of their units dps just melt most toss units as long as the colossus are down. (except 3-3 chargelot archons)
|
I didn't know it was 2010 again.
|
On November 16 2011 02:03 Daralii wrote:
I didn't know it was 2010 again.
thank you for this. lol
|
I'm so confused. Why is this still open?
The counter is corruptors. Done. More than that, it's how you engage the ball.
|
This reminds me of last years Blizzcon when some guy said How do I counter Hydras and don;t say Collosi cuz they don't work to David Kim -__-.
Corrupters work great and everybody knows that. Post a replay and we'll tell you the real problem.
|
On November 16 2011 01:57 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:56 ETisME wrote:On November 16 2011 01:50 HypernovA wrote:
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi. terran units are more supply efficient than zerg and arguably toss as well It doesn't matter, you still need vikings/corrupters to deal with colossi. Vikings are inefficient; they really can't do much after the colossi are dead so its still supply that could have been put into ghosts/medivacs/bio
Lol? Vikings do a surprising amount of damage. They have more dps than a Stalker does even on the ground.
|
On November 16 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:57 HypernovA wrote:On November 16 2011 01:56 ETisME wrote:On November 16 2011 01:50 HypernovA wrote:
A thread worthy of the battle.net forums.
And why are corrupters not good against colossi? I've seen corrupters destroy colossi super fast especially if there is a ground army fighting the Protoss ground forces.
No one complains about Vikings being useless. Once the Colossi are dead, what do they do? Land and attack? Vikings are terrible on the ground.
So the OP's first point doesn't hold up by stating that corrupters don't work. There are tons of pro games where Zerg gets corrupters to deal with colossi. terran units are more supply efficient than zerg and arguably toss as well It doesn't matter, you still need vikings/corrupters to deal with colossi. Vikings are inefficient; they really can't do much after the colossi are dead so its still supply that could have been put into ghosts/medivacs/bio Lol? Vikings do a surprising amount of damage. They have more dps than a Stalker does even on the ground.
Destructible rocks out-DPS stalkers, though.
|
On November 16 2011 02:05 GinDo wrote:
This reminds me of last years Blizzcon when some guy said How do I counter Hydras and don;t say Collosi cuz they don't work to David Kim -__-.
Corrupters work great and everybody knows that. Post a replay and we'll tell you the real problem.
Agreed, a replay would be more beneficial right now.
|
Your approaching this completely wrong. Your not even discussing timing, expansions, the maps, the state of your opponent. You need to more specific because at times theres an answer, and at times that answer is different. And almost all the time that answer HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A SPECIFIC UNIT(sorry i used all caps but im trying to make a damn point). This is a strategy game, not a game of "does he have x? then i shall make y!" or else this game would be lame.
|
Sounds like a dumb noob QQ thread
You need to engage properly with a good concave or a surround. If you make about 8 corruptors and use corruption to snipe the colossi, they're not too bad.
|
This is like finding waldo for the visually impaired.
|
1 - Use corruption. People don't use enough, and don't use with their idle corrupters. It is a good spell and it is especially good if you are using it on the colossi.
2 - I use to struggle with this as well. The problem I found I was having was that I wasn't doing good "corrupter" math. By that I mean, scouting well enough to get a good feel for the number of colossi coming your way and overproducing just enough corrupters to clean them up quick without having to many or not enough. I've found that lately I've started to make more corrupters than I normally would, and trying to engage on my opponents side of the map. If you can keep that colossi count down it is amazing how few upgraded roaches/hydras can handle stalkers without that colossi. With your ability to stream in units you should be in good shape.
Also, with those idle corrupters as the toss pushes forward they should be patrolling around where you know the colossi will come from. Picking off rallying colossi is huge.
Again, I felt similar to this and ultimately found out I was making to few corrupters. If you have the right amount they take out those colossi fast and if the toss is focusing down corrupters while trying to micro away their colossi your roach army should be tearing him up. Also, you know at this point that if your corrupters clean up the colossi and you've had roaches backing he is going to probably tech switch immortals so at that point you can go back to hydras while teching to BL.
I also want to point out that you've said now, "just watch pro games clearly corrupters don't work." Well I can think of several Zerg matches I've watched where the Zerg player got the corrupters out in time and won the game easy. There was a phase there when people struggled with the death ball, but I think people figured out corrupter timings and quantity and also how to continue the tech to BL so that you aren't stuck with worthless corrupters.
Don't ask a question and then when you are getting thoughtful answers stick your fingers in your ears and go, "LALALALALALA CAn'T HEAR YOU!"
|
On November 16 2011 01:58 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:44 shadymmj wrote:
Learn to micro better, learn where to engage, learn to split units to minimise splash. Corruptors do a decent job, but surprise surprise, you might have to go t3 to stand a chance against their t3. Don't tell me that going to t3 is too expensive as a Zerg - colossi need a 200/200 upgrade to function too.
Naturally a simple retard machine like the colossus is harder to beat than to use, but it was designed just like that. Same goes for banelings, it's the Terran that has to pull out the micro tricks to come out the winner. the t3 thing is not compareable tough. How long does it take a protoss to get a couple collosi out? Now how long does it takes for the zerg to get the hive out? not to mention the tech buildings after that.
Yup it's tough but that's why I feel like you have to pressure in ZvP. Zerg can max really quickly (around 13mins) while then Protoss is stuck at 130-140 supply and just trading armies like at that point prevent Protoss from maxing. While trading you tech to hive and when the Protoss gets a maxed ball you have Broodlords out.
|
On November 16 2011 02:08 tuestresfat wrote:
This is like finding waldo for the selective visual impaired.
Fixed
Alright guys - What is the counter to Rock? - And DON'T SAY PAPER! Everyone knows that paper is terrible.
|
Corruptors, you need them to make broodlords and they are freaking great vs colossi.
I dont understand how people still argue this point, no other unit kills collossi fast enough, mutas are a terrible choice (if youre just using them as a means to kill collossi ofc muta ling is still viable)because they will take a long time to kill a collossus (comapred to corruptors) and they still arent that great vs gateway units.
Infestors kind of kill the whole toss army, but you need a shit ton of them and you wont have that many by the time the toss has 4-5 collossi
|
I know it's been said already in this thread, but MUTAS. You pin a protoss with them so his stalkers are always at the back of his base. That leaves nothing to protect the colossus, so they stay at base. Protoss can't push without 1) splitting his stalkers, in which case you're mutas destroy the colossus in his push or 2) he makes tons of cannons and there is far less meat in front of his colossus making your ground army much more effective.
|
roaches (like a main army of roaches, not only. you want infestors, lings, etc etc. make sure you target the col with with the roaches though)
|
|
|
IMO, if you let protoss get a 200/200 deathball, you have screwed up somewhere along the line.
you need to just outmacro and keep trading armies.
protoss is weak as hell in small numbers.
split their armies and keep trading. especially taking out sentries.
tech switches are brutal too. if we have colosus and u go brood lord, there is a bunch of PSI that is not pretty much useless
|
Ultras + banelings + infestors. That's ultimate combo gonna destroy everything toss has, except maybe mass archons or air. Especially on creep, it's funny toss comming with huge deathball of colosus stalker sentries and you destroy him in like 2 seconds. :D
|
Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
Take it to battle.net forums
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
