While I'm still not completely convinced, he pointed out, very correctly, that there is virtually no risk to the community here.
There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen.
But I don't believe he has bad intentions. He's a real dude - not some Russian hacker ripping off people's social security numbers.
The launch of the site might have been a bit hasty, and the lack of polish on smaller details like casters and streaming is a bit unfortunate, but I feel like he's actually a pretty legit guy, trying to provide something to the community.
I gave him some contacts to hopefully help him along, and I will continue to keep in touch with him, and, so long as everything is proven to be legit, will help him out where I can.
Again, I'm still not 100% convinced, but it's starting to look like I might owe Xavi an apology or three.
The guy says he hasn't contacted players (but he's tried email and twitter) and yet he's accepting community donations.
This reeks of scam and it pisses me off.
If I'm speaking out of turn, then please, someone put me in my place, but I'm not going to sit here and twiddle my thumbs if I feel like our community is getting ripped off.
For a site to just go up asking for donations, and then be plastered on reddit for thousands of people to upvote (people who are probably too young or uninformed to have ever been scammed before), thus creating hype and garnering more views is very suspicious.
There are countless avenues through which to do this legitimately.
I am personally ALWAYS looking for new ways to promote e-sports and create SC2 related content.
Guys like JP are ALWAYS willing to hear out good ideas (and this is a good idea) and help get them going if legit.
This just feels too shady.
If it's not, and if I'm smearing somebody's good name, then I am seriously fucking sorry, and I will make it right.
But in the mean time, people need to be made aware of the possibility of a major scam....
Creator of ProVPro here. I'm sorry you feel this reeks of a scam. If there's anyway I can ease your concerns, please let me know. As other people on this thread have mentioned, money is not taken from donor's accounts until the show match happens. I also don't recorded people's credit card or paypal credentials. In the backend, I interface with paypal's credit card processing service to ensure everything is done securely and without the need to store CC info.
Up until this point, I have not been very aggressive about trying to contact many players. Before today/last night, most matches only had a $10 bid with the highest pot at $80 (Day9 vs Tasteless of course =P). At that point, I didn't think it was worth the reputation of the site (or my personal self-respect) to spam these players. They my e-heros and I love what they do. The last thing I want to do is annoy them or piss them off.
That said, I do need help contacting the players, namely Day9 and Tastless. As mentioned earlier I've tried e-mail and twitter with no success. If anyone could help or give some advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I live in California and it's currently 6:55am.
Before I launch the site, I did try contact a number of casters and players. I even got to exchanged a handful of emails with Destiny, djWheat, and Artosis -- mostly about advice on how I should brand the site. When I say, I haven't been in contact with the players, I mostly mean I haven't been able to contact Day9, Tasteless, Idra, or iNControl.
Also, you are not trusting me with money. The site does not charge you until the show match occurs. Also, keep in mind that I'm using paypal for these transactions. Paypal (and credit card companies in general) have excellent anti-scam measures. If this does turn out to be a scam, paypal and/or your credit card company will cancel the hold your account (remember there is no money to be returned).
I understand that people would have concerns. That is why I'm making my contact info well known. My personal email is xavi.rmz@gmail.com (though adjunct@provpro.org also works) and my skype is xavi-ramirez. Please message me if you have concerns.
I assure this isn't some this isn't just some site I through up over the weekend. I've worked nights and weekends for the past month and half to make sure everything is as polished as possible. I've asked dozens of people for advice both in and out of the starcraft community. This is very much a labor of love.
I'm still very wary of anyone that asks for money.
He said on a reddit thread that no transaction is processed till the showmatch happens. The raw idea is kind of cool but needs to be vetted somehow. If an established institution did something like this is would be pretty cool.
On October 26 2011 21:54 Torte de Lini wrote: This is on reddit, nothing been talked about on TL so I have no idea what this is, etc. Should give more explanation in the OP.
I don't have any information. No one does. That's why I made the post.
It's a site that collects credit card and PayPal infos and promises to put together show matches.
If it's legit, I will gladly edit/delete my OP. If it's not, people should know.
This could really use some more info in the OP. At the moment users have to follow the link to get any idea of what is going on but this is just a contentless rant at the moment.
On October 26 2011 21:57 Nyovne wrote: This could really use some more info in the OP. At the moment users have to follow the link to get any idea of what is going on but this is just a contentless rant at the moment.
If it's a scam at the first scamming nobody will ever go the site again.
I think its a good idea to make the community sponsor showmatches but it should have a part dedicated to caster I think because its an important part of a showmatch.
To my knowledge, the site does not take money from the donaters until the showmatch has taken place. And if the showmatch does not take place, the donation will be voided/refunded. For more information, refer to the Reddit post or the website itself =)
You give the site more publicity if you don't agree or think it's ripping people off (by making this thread, thus grabbing people's attention). He hasn't contacted anyone (as someone said before) and so far, it doesn't really set anything off but start the cogs in motion (though maybe he should have done more than just make a site).
Has he actually contacted all the players about it and gotten their approval? He must be a somewhat known figure in the community if all these pros (particularly day9 and tasteless, since seem to wish to keep their playing ability private) are willing to go forward with it.
Also the donations required are tiny, is the number displayed on the left what they currently have, or the target rate? I assume it's what they currently have because it is ridiculously small, so how do we know what the threshold required is?
And just because he says no money will be taken doesn't mean he won't stand by that if it is a scam...
I always err on the side of caution, would be nice to see some sort of valid explanation though since it is a good idea.
IMO this is the situation: A well-intentioned guy has gone ahead with an idea he had that he thought would be cool. He made a pretty flashy website that he has begun to advertise. However, he has also jumped the gun rather gravely. He has admitted to not having contacted players or casters previously to asking for donations. On the other hand, he appears not to be charging until the showmatches actually take place. This suggests it is not a scam. Thus I suspect either:
a) he is just well intentioned but rather ignorant of the fact that smoke without substance is not viable as a service/product.
b) he has put up the site because he has had trouble getting into contact with players and hopes that it generates enough publicity/notoriety that it will afford him the power to get in touch with said people.
For a site to just go up asking for donations, and then be plastered on reddit for thousands of people to upvote (people who are probably too young or uninformed to have ever been scammed before), thus creating hype and garnering more views is very suspicious.
There are countless avenues through which to do this legitimately.
I am personally ALWAYS looking for new ways to promote e-sports and create SC2 related content.
Guys like JP are ALWAYS willing to hear out good ideas (and this is a good idea) and help get them going if legit.
This just feels too shady.
If it's not, and if I'm smearing somebody's good name, then I am seriously fucking sorry, and I will make it right.
But in the mean time, people need to be made aware of the possibility of a major scam....
On October 26 2011 22:12 MrBitter wrote: If it's not, and if I'm smearing somebody's good name, then I am seriously fucking sorry, and I will make it right.
But in the mean time, people need to be made aware of the possibility of a major scam....
Well with you topic naming i would say its 100% scam.... On the topic. I remember day9 vs tastless duking it out during beta. Wasn't very high lvl. Game 1 + Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2011 22:12 MrBitter wrote: Here's where I stand on this:
For a site to just go up asking for donations, and then be plastered on reddit for thousands of people to upvote (people who are probably too young or uninformed to have ever been scammed before), thus creating hype and garnering more views is very suspicious.
There are countless avenues through which to do this legitimately.
I am personally ALWAYS looking for new ways to promote e-sports and create SC2 related content.
Guys like JP are ALWAYS willing to hear out good ideas (and this is a good idea) and help get them going if legit.
This just feels too shady.
If it's not, and if I'm smearing somebody's good name, then I am seriously fucking sorry, and I will make it right.
But in the mean time, people need to be made aware of the possibility of a major scam....
bitters you should cast the first match they get if it comes true
Deezer and Combat-Ex also already had a grudge match. It's on Destiny's channel and I think Deezer won (that is, Combat eventually pussied out). It was pretty hilarious though.
Also I'm a little mystified at the choice of Incontrol and Nestea. Why?
On October 26 2011 22:23 GentleDrill wrote: Deezer and Combat-Ex also already had a grudge match. It's on Destiny's channel and I think Deezer won (that is, Combat eventually pussied out). It was pretty hilarious though.
Also I'm a little mystified at the choice of Incontrol and Nestea. Why?
On October 26 2011 22:23 GentleDrill wrote: Deezer and Combat-Ex also already had a grudge match. It's on Destiny's channel and I think Deezer won (that is, Combat eventually pussied out). It was pretty hilarious though.
Also I'm a little mystified at the choice of Incontrol and Nestea. Why?
well...this one is obvious..to see if Nestea can survive 5 minutes of incontrol's onslaught
Honestly, I am quite appalled at the attitude of people calling this "100% scam" before even giving the guy a chance to come on here and explain himself. I agree that he shouldn't of put the website live until he had some backing from a few players, as otherwise it's a complete waste of his time.
What I can say though, as a Web Developer myself, is that the site is very well put together and although it's pretty basic, it would still have taken this guy a decent amount of his own time to put it together (not to mention the idea is pretty cool!).
TL;DR - Don't bash people immediately without prior evidence and don't donate any money toward showmatches until we know more about it.
Yes this looks like it's either a scam or a really stupid idea. But are we going to have a new thread on TL for every video game related scam that comes out? I mean there must be dozens of things like this in the community, not to mention hacks that try to steal passwords/logins for Blizz games. I don't think we need a new thread on every single one.
On October 26 2011 22:12 MrBitter wrote: For a site to just go up asking for donations, and then be plastered on reddit for thousands of people to upvote (people who are probably too young or uninformed to have ever been scammed before),
Then wouldn't time be much better spent educating people on why they should not give money to random people on the internet? Or maybe using this as an example of how to detect possible scams and avoid being taken? Making a thread that says 'I think this is a scam but I don't know' isn't super useful.
On October 26 2011 22:17 Torte de Lini wrote: I think you gave the site more light and awareness than how little it had before.
Based on some research this guy seems like a legit programmer, however I see zero previous contributions to the gaming community.
His website is also registered to an address that isn't his (called the residency because I'm bored... they had no idea who this guy was).
I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and just let things play out, though. That being said I personally wouldn't donate, regardless of who was running it, unless the actual players in the requested matches publicly stated they would participate in the first place.
I don't know. I don't see anything on the page that makes it look like an obvious scam. My optimistic guess would be that this is someone trying to make something awesome, who started taking donations in order to have more heft when trying to start a conversation with casters and players. If that's the case, I think the judgement involved was questionable, but not anything to get upset about.
On the other hand, it's entirely possible that when the Day9 v Tasteless match gets high enough, he'll just hit the button to collect the money and no one will ever hear from him again. I don't know what kind of support PayPal has for something like this where you only have to pay if an event actually takes place, but I'd guess it's just on the honor system.
My feeling is this is legit: The website doesn't look cheaply cobbled together either at the rendering level or in the code, which I would expect for someone running a con that's only going to work once.
My suggestion if you're concerned and want to find out more is to drop the guy a line who registered the page. According to WHOIS, provpro.org is owned by a dude in Massachusets named Xavi Ramirez. I'll write him an e-mail and see if he wants to come respond to this thread.
Edit: E-Mail sent. I invited Mr. Ramirez to either send me an e-mail or just post here himself.
On October 26 2011 22:31 TheToast wrote: This thread is silly x1000
Yes this looks like it's either a scam or a really stupid idea. But are we going to have a new thread on TL for every video game related scam that comes out? I mean there must be dozens of things like this in the community, not to mention hacks that try to steal passwords/logins for Blizz games. I don't think we need a new thread on every single one.
He made a thread pointing out something that could either be a fun thing for the community or possibly a scam, either way it getting exposure is a good thing because people may not have thought twice (if this is a scam). I was linked the same site by a couple of people on skype and I thought it was somewhat out of the blue also.
But if this is a genuine thing, which isn't too far to believe, it still gets some exposure for an interesting thing for the community to get involved with.
I don't see a problem with this thread at all, it's more of a favour than anything else.
On October 26 2011 22:31 MasterKush wrote: Honestly, I am quite appalled at the attitude of people calling this "100% scam" before even giving the guy a chance to come on here and explain himself. I agree that he shouldn't of put the website live until he had some backing from a few players, as otherwise it's a complete waste of his time.
What I can say though, as a Web Developer myself, is that the site is very well put together and although it's pretty basic, it would still have taken this guy a decent amount of his own time to put it together (not to mention the idea is pretty cool!).
TL;DR - Don't bash people immediately without prior evidence and don't donate any money toward showmatches until we know more about it.
Anonymous person on the Internet opens a website asking for for money for 'show matches' without prior making a thread, contacting any casters, contacting the players or giving any information as to how much is required, what the deadline date will be, with the only thing to suggest any credibility being a flashy website, and you are saying we should just trust him with our money?
People are justified in expressing their concerns, if nobody did then others may read this topic, assume it was legit and lose their money. Better to err on the side of suspicion where the worst that could happen is the show matches don't go through, than err on the side of trusting where the worst that could happen is many people being scammed...
He should have undertaken the necessary steps before putting the site up, and if it turns out to be legit then all is good, and if anything he gained publicity out of it.
The guy says he hasn't contacted players (but he's tried email and twitter) and yet he's accepting community donations.
This reeks of scam and it pisses me off.
If I'm speaking out of turn, then please, someone put me in my place, but I'm not going to sit here and twiddle my thumbs if I feel like our community is getting ripped off.
Hello,
Creator of ProVPro here. I'm sorry you feel this reeks of a scam. If there's anyway I can ease your concerns, please let me know. As other people on this thread have mentioned, money is not taken from donor's accounts until the show match happens. I also don't recorded people's credit card or paypal credentials. In the backend, I interface with paypal's credit card processing service to ensure everything is done securely and without the need to store CC info.
Up until this point, I have not been very aggressive about trying to contact many players. Before today/last night, most matches only had a $10 bid with the highest pot at $80 (Day9 vs Tasteless of course =P). At that point, I didn't think it was worth the reputation of the site (or my personal self-respect) to spam these players. They my e-heros and I love what they do. The last thing I want to do is annoy them or piss them off.
That said, I do need help contacting the players, namely Day9 and Tastless. As mentioned earlier I've tried e-mail and twitter with no success. If anyone could help or give some advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I live in California and it's currently 6:55am.
The guy says he hasn't contacted players (but he's tried email and twitter) and yet he's accepting community donations.
This reeks of scam and it pisses me off.
If I'm speaking out of turn, then please, someone put me in my place, but I'm not going to sit here and twiddle my thumbs if I feel like our community is getting ripped off.
Hello,
Creator of ProVPro here. I'm sorry you feel this reeks of a scam. If there's anyway I can ease your concerns, please let me know. As other people on this thread have mentioned, money is not taken from donor's accounts until the show match happens. I also don't recorded people's credit card or paypal credentials. In the backend, I interface with paypal's credit card processing service to ensure everything is done securely and without the need to store CC info.
Up until this point, I have not been very aggressive about trying to contact many players. Before today/last night, most matches only had a $10 bid with the highest pot at $80 (Day9 vs Tasteless of course =P). At that point, I didn't think it was worth the reputation of the site (or my personal self-respect) to spam these players. They my e-heros and I love what they do. The last thing I want to do is annoy them or piss them off.
That said, I do need help contacting the players, namely Day9 and Tastless. As mentioned earlier I've tried e-mail and twitter with no success. If anyone could help or give some advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I live in California and it's currently 6:55am.
I think the easiest way to prove your legitimacy is to hold a few showmatches with your own money as sites like Gosucoaching.com. This helps to build community trust in your site when they watch the stream/replays and might be more willing to donate to the cause as well if they are impressed by it.
I appreciate people like MrBitter who are on the lookout for defending our community.
I also appreciate people like Xavi-avi who look to put together stuff like this (now that it seems a little more legit than it did at first glance). Tyler was right when he said that the MKP-to-Orlando thing demonstrates that there's more potential money in eSports than the industry realizes, and it needs to be more efficient at giving fans opportunities to pay for what they really want. This seems like a great potential avenue for that (if it's legit).
I very much doubt Day9 or Tasteless would want to do a showmatch.. it isn't fair really to have the community donate loads of money for charity perhaps without their knowing and pressure them into it.
There are already showmatches taking place from other sources (like incontrol vs minigun - can't remember the creator) but as much as I would like to see casters do battle I don't think they would agree to it and nor should we pressurer them into it.
The guy says he hasn't contacted players (but he's tried email and twitter) and yet he's accepting community donations.
This reeks of scam and it pisses me off.
If I'm speaking out of turn, then please, someone put me in my place, but I'm not going to sit here and twiddle my thumbs if I feel like our community is getting ripped off.
Hello,
Creator of ProVPro here. I'm sorry you feel this reeks of a scam. If there's anyway I can ease your concerns, please let me know. As other people on this thread have mentioned, money is not taken from donor's accounts until the show match happens. I also don't recorded people's credit card or paypal credentials. In the backend, I interface with paypal's credit card processing service to ensure everything is done securely and without the need to store CC info.
Up until this point, I have not been very aggressive about trying to contact many players. Before today/last night, most matches only had a $10 bid with the highest pot at $80 (Day9 vs Tasteless of course =P). At that point, I didn't think it was worth the reputation of the site (or my personal self-respect) to spam these players. They my e-heros and I love what they do. The last thing I want to do is annoy them or piss them off.
That said, I do need help contacting the players, namely Day9 and Tastless. As mentioned earlier I've tried e-mail and twitter with no success. If anyone could help or give some advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I live in California and it's currently 6:55am.
So what's in it for you? Judging by what you write on the site 90 % goes to players and the rest to fees. Stream revenue or what?
On October 26 2011 21:57 Nyovne wrote: This could really use some more info in the OP. At the moment users have to follow the link to get any idea of what is going on but this is just a contentless rant at the moment.
Then please lock it.
There is no info. Just a guy asking for money.
Am I just being overly paranoid?
I wouldn't say that.
We've seen lots of different scams over the years and I would throw caution in the wind as long as you do your research and publish it correctly in your OP.
Donations should always go directly to the players/casters that people are trying to sponsor. If you donate money please don't do it through this method.
On October 26 2011 22:55 Ryder. wrote: Anonymous person on the Internet opens a website asking for for money for 'show matches' without prior making a thread, contacting any casters, contacting the players or giving any information as to how much is required, what the deadline date will be, with the only thing to suggest any credibility being a flashy website, and you are saying we should just trust him with our money?
People are justified in expressing their concerns, if nobody did then others may read this topic, assume it was legit and lose their money. Better to err on the side of suspicion where the worst that could happen is the show matches don't go through, than err on the side of trusting where the worst that could happen is many people being scammed...
He should have undertaken the necessary steps before putting the site up, and if it turns out to be legit then all is good, and if anything he gained publicity out of it.
Hello
Before I launch the site, I did try contact a number of casters and players. I even got to exchanged a handful of emails with Destiny, djWheat, and Artosis -- mostly about advice on how I should brand the site. When I say, I haven't been in contact with the players, I mostly mean I haven't been able to contact Day9, Tasteless, Idra, or iNControl.
Also, you are not trusting me with money. The site does not charge you until the show match occurs. Also, keep in mind that I'm using paypal for these transactions. Paypal (and credit card companies in general) have excellent anti-scam measures. If this does turn out to be a scam, paypal and/or your credit card company will cancel the hold your account (remember there is no money to be returned).
I understand that people would have concerns. That is why I'm making my contact info well known. My personal email is xavi.rmz@gmail.com (though adjunct@provpro.org also works) and my skype is xavi-ramirez. Please message me if you have concerns.
I assure this isn't some this isn't just some site I through up over the weekend. I've worked nights and weekends for the past month and half to make sure everything is as polished as possible. I've asked dozens of people for advice both in and out of the starcraft community. This is very much a labor of love.
On October 26 2011 22:00 Subversion wrote: day9 vs tasteless already happened bros
tasteless won
yea in the beta. A match now would be 100% better and not just a zealot battle.
Bold statement... Especially since neither of the Plott brothers plays profesionall SC2,,,
I don't think it's that bold of a statement, the beta showmatch wasn't that interesting because it was the beta, not many builds were well refined and well known. Also they don't have to be pro gamers to provide a good show match, they both know a wide variety of builds now and therefore all he's stating is that the show match will be more interesting because of that.
On October 26 2011 22:55 Ryder. wrote: Anonymous person on the Internet opens a website asking for for money for 'show matches' without prior making a thread, contacting any casters, contacting the players or giving any information as to how much is required, what the deadline date will be, with the only thing to suggest any credibility being a flashy website, and you are saying we should just trust him with our money?
People are justified in expressing their concerns, if nobody did then others may read this topic, assume it was legit and lose their money. Better to err on the side of suspicion where the worst that could happen is the show matches don't go through, than err on the side of trusting where the worst that could happen is many people being scammed...
He should have undertaken the necessary steps before putting the site up, and if it turns out to be legit then all is good, and if anything he gained publicity out of it.
Hello
Before I launch the site, I did try contact a number of casters and players. I even got to exchanged a handful of emails with Destiny, djWheat, and Artosis -- mostly about advice on how I should brand the site. When I say, I haven't been in contact with the players, I mostly mean I haven't been able to contact Day9, Tasteless, Idra, or iNControl.
Also, you are not trusting me with money. The site does not charge you until the show match occurs. Also, keep in mind that I'm using paypal for these transactions. Paypal (and credit card companies in general) have excellent anti-scam measures. If this does turn out to be a scam, paypal and/or your credit card company will cancel the hold your account (remember there is no money to be returned).
I understand that people would have concerns. That is why I'm making my contact info well known. My personal email is xavi.rmz@gmail.com (though adjunct@provpro.org also works) and my skype is xavi-ramirez. Please message me if you have concerns.
I assure this isn't some this isn't just some site I through up over the weekend. I've worked nights and weekends for the past month and half to make sure everything is as polished as possible. I've asked dozens of people for advice both in and out of the starcraft community. This is very much a labor of love.
Just curious... you said you live in California but your website WHOIS says you live in Massachusetts. I called the address you have registered to your domain and the residents said they had no idea who you were.
On October 26 2011 21:46 MrBitter wrote: There are countless avenues through which to do this legitimately.
Please let me know what these legitimate ways are. I know the best way to promote this is via and SC2 pro-gamer, but they're extremely busy and IME hard to get in contact with. I was hoping to get a reply from Day9 or Tasteless before the site got post on TL, but unfortunately that's not what happened...
On October 26 2011 21:46 MrBitter wrote: There are countless avenues through which to do this legitimately.
Please let me know what these legitimate ways are. I know the best way to promote this is via and SC2 pro-gamer, but they're extremely busy and IME hard to get in contact with. I was hoping to get a reply from Day9 or Tasteless before the site got post on TL, but unfortunately that's not what happened...
Day[9] and Tasteless are probably two of the most difficult people in e-sports to contact by virtue of the fact that they're always so busy with their own content.
You said you've been in talks with Artosis. Getting his seal of approval immediately legitimizes your product.
The same can be said of Destiny, and iNcontroL, and of any of the other pros you've already mentioned.
GosuCoaching is an established organization with a legitimate history in the community. Talking to them is another way to move forward with something like this.
TeamLiquid is the pillar on which our community is built. Message any of the mods here and they will either tell you how they can help legitimize your idea, or put you in touch with someone that can.
The same can be said of people associated with MLG (JP, Slasher, etc.), Twitch (Wheat), IGN (CatsPJs), ESL (me), and so forth and so on forever.
Your idea is excellent. The community loves SC2. The community loves supporting SC2. Why not give them means to do it directly?
Fug'n-A.
I don't want to sound like I'm trying to mess that up.
But asking people for money (1), asking people for money over the internet (2), asking people for money anonymously (3), with a proxy address (4), while collecting credit card numbers (5), without any backing from anyone legitimate in the community is enough for me to question the whole project.
You'd have to be pretty stupid to give this guy money.
He may be legit, but from my point of view this seems to be at best a delusional guy with no means of making any of this happen.
At the very least he has the ability to scam the people who donated - "Note: You won't be charged until the match takes place." is something you have to take his word for. And even if you go through PayPal, it's not like PayPal knows when the showmatch goes live, so he'll have to manually charge you.
On October 26 2011 22:07 chambertin wrote: IMO this is the situation: A well-intentioned guy has gone ahead with an idea he had that he thought would be cool. He made a pretty flashy website that he has begun to advertise. However, he has also jumped the gun rather gravely. He has admitted to not having contacted players or casters previously to asking for donations. On the other hand, he appears not to be charging until the showmatches actually take place. This suggests it is not a scam. Thus I suspect either:
a) he is just well intentioned but rather ignorant of the fact that smoke without substance is not viable as a service/product.
b) he has put up the site because he has had trouble getting into contact with players and hopes that it generates enough publicity/notoriety that it will afford him the power to get in touch with said people.
If I had to pick, I'd say I'm more in column A, kinda. What bothers me about the statement is that it implies that I'm trying to make this a business. I am not. I'm only take a 10% cut of the prize pool, half of which goes directly to paypal fees. The other half goes to words towards server costs and more paypal fees (there's a monthly fee). Basically around $2000 would have to flow through the site each month before I can break even.
On October 26 2011 22:55 Ryder. wrote: Anonymous person on the Internet opens a website asking for for money for 'show matches' without prior making a thread, contacting any casters, contacting the players or giving any information as to how much is required, what the deadline date will be, with the only thing to suggest any credibility being a flashy website, and you are saying we should just trust him with our money?
People are justified in expressing their concerns, if nobody did then others may read this topic, assume it was legit and lose their money. Better to err on the side of suspicion where the worst that could happen is the show matches don't go through, than err on the side of trusting where the worst that could happen is many people being scammed...
He should have undertaken the necessary steps before putting the site up, and if it turns out to be legit then all is good, and if anything he gained publicity out of it.
Hello
Before I launch the site, I did try contact a number of casters and players. I even got to exchanged a handful of emails with Destiny, djWheat, and Artosis -- mostly about advice on how I should brand the site. When I say, I haven't been in contact with the players, I mostly mean I haven't been able to contact Day9, Tasteless, Idra, or iNControl.
Also, you are not trusting me with money. The site does not charge you until the show match occurs. Also, keep in mind that I'm using paypal for these transactions. Paypal (and credit card companies in general) have excellent anti-scam measures. If this does turn out to be a scam, paypal and/or your credit card company will cancel the hold your account (remember there is no money to be returned).
I understand that people would have concerns. That is why I'm making my contact info well known. My personal email is xavi.rmz@gmail.com (though adjunct@provpro.org also works) and my skype is xavi-ramirez. Please message me if you have concerns.
I assure this isn't some this isn't just some site I through up over the weekend. I've worked nights and weekends for the past month and half to make sure everything is as polished as possible. I've asked dozens of people for advice both in and out of the starcraft community. This is very much a labor of love.
Just curious... you said you live in California but your website WHOIS says you live in Massachusetts. I called the address you have registered to your domain and the residents said they had no idea who you were.
On October 26 2011 21:46 MrBitter wrote: There are countless avenues through which to do this legitimately.
Please let me know what these legitimate ways are. I know the best way to promote this is via and SC2 pro-gamer, but they're extremely busy and IME hard to get in contact with. I was hoping to get a reply from Day9 or Tasteless before the site got post on TL, but unfortunately that's not what happened...
Your idea is excellent. The community loves SC2. The community loves supporting SC2. Why not give them means to do it directly?
IS the idea that excellenet? I mean there are so many showmatches or other games played so often, and its possible to watch most high level players on a weekly basis. Do people really want to pay to watch TLO vs Spanishwa or Sheth vs some other guy?
I can understand that people want to watch day9 and/or tasteless play, because we dont know how good they are. But is it actually possible to get these kind of players to play in the showmatches? Or is it only possible to watch the players we watch almost every day?
On October 26 2011 22:55 Ryder. wrote: Anonymous person on the Internet opens a website asking for for money for 'show matches' without prior making a thread, contacting any casters, contacting the players or giving any information as to how much is required, what the deadline date will be, with the only thing to suggest any credibility being a flashy website, and you are saying we should just trust him with our money?
People are justified in expressing their concerns, if nobody did then others may read this topic, assume it was legit and lose their money. Better to err on the side of suspicion where the worst that could happen is the show matches don't go through, than err on the side of trusting where the worst that could happen is many people being scammed...
He should have undertaken the necessary steps before putting the site up, and if it turns out to be legit then all is good, and if anything he gained publicity out of it.
Hello
Before I launch the site, I did try contact a number of casters and players. I even got to exchanged a handful of emails with Destiny, djWheat, and Artosis -- mostly about advice on how I should brand the site. When I say, I haven't been in contact with the players, I mostly mean I haven't been able to contact Day9, Tasteless, Idra, or iNControl.
Also, you are not trusting me with money. The site does not charge you until the show match occurs. Also, keep in mind that I'm using paypal for these transactions. Paypal (and credit card companies in general) have excellent anti-scam measures. If this does turn out to be a scam, paypal and/or your credit card company will cancel the hold your account (remember there is no money to be returned).
I understand that people would have concerns. That is why I'm making my contact info well known. My personal email is xavi.rmz@gmail.com (though adjunct@provpro.org also works) and my skype is xavi-ramirez. Please message me if you have concerns.
I assure this isn't some this isn't just some site I through up over the weekend. I've worked nights and weekends for the past month and half to make sure everything is as polished as possible. I've asked dozens of people for advice both in and out of the starcraft community. This is very much a labor of love.
Just curious... you said you live in California but your website WHOIS says you live in Massachusetts. I called the address you have registered to your domain and the residents said they had no idea who you were.
This page makes you awesome in my book. I could watch that all day.
I at least am persuaded that there's no reason to assume this is anything but someone's first time attempt to get involved in the E-Sports community. I'm currently planning my own first community event, and it's a very intimidating process, so I have sympathy for you getting called out in a thread like this, though I understand MrBitter's suspicions. I hope your site works out for you. I highly doubt you're going to get Day[9] and Tasteless to play another public match, but I wish you luck.
On October 26 2011 22:32 Serejai wrote: I would like to go ahead and chime in.
Based on some research this guy seems like a legit programmer, however I see zero previous contributions to the gaming community.
His website is also registered to an address that isn't his (called the residency because I'm bored... they had no idea who this guy was).
I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and just let things play out, though. That being said I personally wouldn't donate, regardless of who was running it, unless the actual players in the requested matches publicly stated they would participate in the first place.
What number did you call? The address on the whois is incorrect. I only recently moved to california for a job:
It's personally upsetting that every time someone new comes up with a business point in esports, they always miss the first step --- reaching out to community veterans for their experience and support.
Our sc2 community is inherently savvy and critical bunch. Without that first step, we always reject new initiatives. Whether the business plan is sound or not, simply because it's from outsiders.
And once the initial impression is set, I have yet to see anyone overcome it.
Hope this is a lesson to all the eSports entrepreneurs out there.
On October 27 2011 00:10 Primadog wrote: It's personally upsetting that every time someone new comes up with a business point in esports, they always miss the first step --- reaching out to community veterans for their experience and support.
Our sc2 community is inherently savvy and critical bunch, without making that first step, we always throw out those new initiatives, whether the business plan is sound or not.
And once the initial impression is set, I have yet to see anyone overcome it.
Hope this is a lesson to all the eSports entrepreneurs out there.
I even got to exchanged a handful of emails with Destiny, djWheat, and Artosis -- mostly about advice on how I should brand the site. When I say, I haven't been in contact with the players, I mostly mean I haven't been able to contact Day9, Tasteless, Idra, or iNControl.
Support, Torte. Nobody has come out and say, "I have been working with x on this, and everyone should check it out." If someone like diggity has came out and say he's part of the project, will we have a thread call "about sc2 scam"?
Essentially, his mistake is missing the implicit vetting process that all esports projects need to go through.
To be specific with this particular project. I would had find from the players and casters that whether the showmatch listed are viable in the first place. You do so by getting a verbal okay from the player and casters first. The person involved never done that. A project like this will not get off the ground, proper, if he has not even build a relationship with the Pros and casters he intend to solicite.
For example, we all know full well that Tasteless vs Day9 will not happen. I had know of enough attempts to know they have personal reasons not to. Why even bother listing it?
To be sure, I think the idea has merit, just execution is flawed. I am personal upset that so many good eSports project die before they get a proper chance to prosper.
I think Bitter was entirely justified to suspect a website like this, it does look shady when players aren't contacted and the first thing it does it shove a form in your face for your credit card information.
I think it's a decent idea and there's certainly a group of sc2 fans willing to pay for this sort of thing but there are some general flaws in the implementation in my opinion. How long does the donation window stay open, is there an upper limit when its funded and the players will play? Who decides that? It says it can charge cards within 28 days, which gives you a month from the very first donation to contact and organize a showmatch when you don't have any of that arranged before hand.
The payout says players are guaranteed 10% for showing up, what does that even mean when the payout is 90% to them? Is there a scenario where money is taken, but no showmatch takes place? I really don't get why that's there.
Overall I think the intentions are good but the planning and execution are simply not, and given that it's run by people who have no history in the SC2 community it should be met with skepticism.
I'd also encourage people not to use it until some fundamental questions are answered about contacting players etc. There's $400 up for 2 casters who are notoriously hard to contact and don't have much interest in playing for example. That's how easy it is to prey on your nerd fantasies if someone were so inclined.
This OP is so rude. MKP going MLG shows this could be a really great idea.
Just because it isn't endorsed by JP and first posted on TL, doesn't mean it's a scam.
It's not right to just to conclusions and defame someone like this.
YOU should wait and go through the proper channels (paypal for example) to find out if this is a scam, instead of going by some made up rules that new websites have to go through your community before being considered legit, and then talking out of your ass.
On October 27 2011 00:10 Primadog wrote: It's personally upsetting that every time someone new comes up with a business point in esports, they always miss the first step --- reaching out to community veterans for their experience and support.
Our sc2 community is inherently savvy and critical bunch, without making that first step, we always throw out those new initiatives, whether the business plan is sound or not.
And once the initial impression is set, I have yet to see anyone overcome it.
Hope this is a lesson to all the eSports entrepreneurs out there.
This is an issue I'm struggling with myself (though Training Day is just an event I want to turn into a regular thing rather than a business venture): No one knows who I am, and established community members are too busy to be reviewing everyones new ideas to consider endorsing them. How do you get recognition before you have recognition? I think there really is a point where you just have to say "fuck it," put yourself out there, and hope that if your idea is a good one it will start gathering positive attention on its own merits.
Obviously this is a bigger stumbling block for businesses or any sort of event that costs money, since they're actually asking for trust from the community, but it's an issue for anyone who wants to make the transition from sideliner to a contributing community member, and I'm not sure that waiting to get approval from established community members is a reasonable first step. I did manage to snag an endorsement from MrBitter himself, but that involved beer, which is a solution that doesn't scale well.
personally I saw this on reddit earlier today and immediately thought scam.... but usually Reddit people are awesome so its actually most likely legit.... but I wont be donating or anything
On October 26 2011 23:09 nam nam wrote: So what's in it for you? Judging by what you write on the site 90 % goes to players and the rest to fees. Stream revenue or what?
This is not a business. I just thought it would be cool to make...
On October 26 2011 23:09 nam nam wrote: So what's in it for you? Judging by what you write on the site 90 % goes to players and the rest to fees. Stream revenue or what?
This is not a business. I just thought it would be cool to make...
If this becomes successful, I don't particularly care if you make a bit of money on it. We can never have too much SC2 content, and you're giving the community a chance to see exactly what they want :D
On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: For example, we all know full well that Tasteless vs Day9 will not happen. I had know of enough attempts to know they have personal reasons not to. Why even bother listing it?
Because you aren't being charged until the match happens, if it happens. That's the whole point, players see growing $$$ and eventually decide to bite giving the fans what they want.
The entire purpose is to set something up that doesn't require a pre-scheduled show match.
On October 26 2011 21:48 TheSilverfox wrote: It says on their site that: "Note: You won't be charged until the match takes place."
I have not tested if it will be like that, but that should make it a bit more legitimate.
Guy who can take the money when the match takes place can take the money when it ultimately doesn't and then shut down site. GG no RE.
Its like saying "send me money via Western Union but don't worry! We won't take the money until the nigerian prince I represent confirms that you will be receiving your money back + interest in a week!"
On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: Support, Torte. Nobody has come out and say, "I have been working with x on this, and everyone should check it out." If someone like diggity has came out and say he's part of the project, will we have a thread call "about sc2 scam"?
Essentially, his mistake is missing the implicit vetting process that all esports projects need to go through.
To be specific with this particular project. I would had find from the players and casters that whether the showmatch listed are viable in the first place. You do so by getting a verbal okay from the player and casters first. The person involved never done that. A project like this will not get off the ground, proper, if he has not even build a relationship with the Pros and casters he intend to solicite.
You make it sound trivial to vet a project through a prominent community member. It is not. They're all very busy and have little incentive to stick their neck out for some random guy on the internet. Also, I (perhaps foolishly?) spent all my time working on the site instead spamming pro-gamers and casters.
On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: For example, we all know full well that Tasteless vs Day9 will not happen. I had know of enough attempts to know they have personal reasons not to. Why even bother listing it?
To be sure, I think the idea has merit, just execution is flawed. I am personal upset that so many good eSports project die before they get a proper chance to prosper.
I didn't list the Day[9] vs Tasteless -- the community did. The whole point of the site is to give fans a voice. Removing Day[9] vs Tasteless would directly opposed that idea.
I'm glad that you think the idea has merit. This "launch" was not planned. I haphazardly mentioned this site in reddit comment and people started to repost it. I was hoping to get more players on board with the idea (so far only Destiny has said he's cool with the idea), but for better or worst, that's not the way it worked out.
The part that concerns me is where he says he interfaces with paypal's credit card processing service to charge people when the match happens. Id like to know exactly how this works being a long time user of paypal I have never seen any way for someone to "Charge" your account afaik you can only send/receive money with paypal and if someone makes a donation to this site through paypal the money will be in the potential scammers account until the match happens and if it dosnt happen good luck getting your money back. If this one aspect were cleared up and we could somehow prove that our money that was sent as a donation was secure we could put this whole business to rest.
On October 27 2011 00:10 Primadog wrote: It's personally upsetting that every time someone new comes up with a business point in esports, they always miss the first step --- reaching out to community veterans for their experience and support.
Our sc2 community is inherently savvy and critical bunch, without making that first step, we always throw out those new initiatives, whether the business plan is sound or not.
And once the initial impression is set, I have yet to see anyone overcome it.
Hope this is a lesson to all the eSports entrepreneurs out there.
This is an issue I'm struggling with myself (though Training Day is just an event I want to turn into a regular thing rather than a business venture): No one knows who I am, and established community members are too busy to be reviewing everyones new ideas to consider endorsing them. How do you get recognition before you have recognition? I think there really is a point where you just have to say "fuck it," put yourself out there, and hope that if your idea is a good one it will start gathering positive attention on its own merits.
Obviously this is a bigger stumbling block for businesses or any sort of event that costs money, since they're actually asking for trust from the community, but it's an issue for anyone who wants to make the transition from sideliner to a contributing community member, and I'm not sure that waiting to get approval from established community members is a reasonable first step. I did manage to snag an endorsement from MrBitter himself, but that involved beer, which is a solution that doesn't scale well.
Simple. You get a showmatch confirmed with 2 players. You then say X player vs. Y player have agreed to a showmatch. The money they get for winning is decided by you the community. Donate to the showmatch at www.website.com! If this is successful we will take community requests and every month the matchup that gets the most donation pledges will happen.
You need an actual legitmate starting point where you see it in action. Then the community from there will donate if they see fit. You could have a 1 week polling period where people vote for 1 of 3 or 4 possible matchups that have been agreed to. The winning poll then gets selected, confirmed and then donations start to roll in. Then the showmatch happens and people win make money. A cut is taken to maintain the website. Simple - done and more easily supported than this.
On October 27 2011 00:38 Nalesnik wrote: So he is selling off incredible show-matches between famous players, and he hasn't even told the players about this? ...really?
I think you're miss understanding the point of the site. I'm not "selling off show-matches", I'm trying to give fans another voice and players another possible source of revenue.
Also, I have e-mail players about the site, but they are busy people and they likely overlooked the e-mail and tweet.
On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: Support, Torte. Nobody has come out and say, "I have been working with x on this, and everyone should check it out." If someone like diggity has came out and say he's part of the project, will we have a thread call "about sc2 scam"?
Essentially, his mistake is missing the implicit vetting process that all esports projects need to go through.
To be specific with this particular project. I would had find from the players and casters that whether the showmatch listed are viable in the first place. You do so by getting a verbal okay from the player and casters first. The person involved never done that. A project like this will not get off the ground, proper, if he has not even build a relationship with the Pros and casters he intend to solicite.
You make it sound trivial to vet a project through a prominent community member. It is not. They're all very busy and have little incentive to stick their neck out for some random guy on the internet. Also, I (perhaps foolishly?) spent all my time working on the site instead spamming pro-gamers and casters.
On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: For example, we all know full well that Tasteless vs Day9 will not happen. I had know of enough attempts to know they have personal reasons not to. Why even bother listing it?
To be sure, I think the idea has merit, just execution is flawed. I am personal upset that so many good eSports project die before they get a proper chance to prosper.
I didn't list the Day[9] vs Tasteless -- the community did. The whole point of the site is to give fans a voice. Removing Day[9] vs Tasteless would directly opposed that idea.
I'm glad that you think the idea has merit. This "launch" was not planned. I haphazardly mentioned this site in reddit comment and people started to repost it. I was hoping to get more players on board with the idea (so far only Destiny has said he's cool with the idea), but for better or worst, that's not the way it worked out.
But thats the problem. You need a "Bank" if you will of interested players. You then need to provide this bank of players to those who want to make their own matchups on your site. They then need to choose from this bank of pre-consenting players to put up a match up between for example destiny and Catz (idk).
With these consenting players you then have a real chance of having a showmach happen because they know they can and are willing to play. You don't need to hunt after them or say "that money you put in is going back to you because x and y didn't want to play".
Is it easy? No. Will it take time? Yes. How do you do it? Word of mouth.
You already got destiny on board - sweet. Ask him to talk to anyone else who might be interested he then gives interested players your email. You talk after they initiate thanks to word of mouth and make the same request of them - spread the news themselves since other players will be more likely to convince them than you an anonymous person.
Hopefully it snowballs and you get people. Its the same way you get interviews for research studies - you need to make it public that you are looking for people then once you get one person they talk to their friends and you get more people interested.
1. I'd never directly donate to watch a showmatch. A series or tournament, like IPL or MLG or GSL, yeah. A showmatch? Not worth it. We don't want a world where the fans have to fund the tournaments on their own. Those organizations do charge sometimes for HQ streams or live events, but a great portion of their income is from sponsors.
2. It asks for a donation to watch the stream. That's a charge for a service. You can request a donation for a service, and give goodies, like the shoutout, but if you're explicitly saying that you need to donate to get the service, that's a fee.
3. Because there is no corporation or organization listed under the copyright, I have no way of knowing that this isn't some hack.
Alright, I looked over the site a bit more, and here is what I suggest:
The first thing Xavi is to reach out and secure casters for the showmatches. "We're still trying to figure out the details" is a serious red-flag. The more details a new project provide, the more confidence the community will have that this is a legit project, that serious thoughts and planning had went in to make it viable. From past experiences, casters always are looking out for new platforms to put their name out there, so consider sending out feelers to existing teams like ESV, Stim.TV, individual casters like axeltoss, digiwombat, thundertoss, etc.
Additionally, having casters saying that "I am going to cast for ProVPro" will be the first step to for this "community veteran support" you desperately need.
You also need to fill out the details of your showmatch format. The standard showmatch is bo7, not bo5. Are the games going to be live or replays? Map Pool? Server? What % goes to the winner? The loser? What happens when a showmatch declined to be played?
A simple change in nomenclature: instead of a "donate" button, change it to "pledge" or "back this project" like KickStarter.
Xavi, I want to help. Let me go through this with you in details, and I will lend a hand in helping you get in touch with the casters and pros you need.
Send me your skype via pm. Let's get your foot in the door.
On October 27 2011 00:39 Xavi-avi wrote:
You make it sound trivial to vet a project through a prominent community member. It is not.
It's by no mean trivial. Been there, done that. Not getting vetted, though, is fatal to any eSports project. That's why i am so concerned that you haven't.
Its maybe not a scam, but the whole thing is not a particularly good idea. I don't see why most of those personnalities would want to play those show-matches (I'm pretty sure Day9, tasteless etc will never want to play them) and I don't see why people would want to pay for that.
I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
But thats the problem. You need a "Bank" if you will of interested players. You then need to provide this bank of players to those who want to make their own matchups on your site. They then need to choose from this bank of pre-consenting players to put up a match up between for example destiny and Catz (idk).
This is my thoughts exactly. I would never want pledge money to a show match that might never happen. If there is a pool of Players who already expressed interest, it would be better
I think this is a great idea, and i think if its legit (which it very much is) a great initiative.
Also people need to realize that the site is allowing the community to create matches, and then support the motivation for players to participate by donating money. If you have players agree on beforehand, then its not the community's match, and if there is not some sort of "bank" then how can the players be sure that they will actually receive the money?
This is why it has to be done like this, only i wish the community and especially the prominent community members would help and support ideas like this, because that is (in my eyes) what this site is full of, ideas. If we really do not get charged before the match happens, no one looses, and everyone wins if /when the match happens. People also need to realize if it does not happen, then bad luck, we (the community) did not create enough motivation through prize / donation .
But thats the problem. You need a "Bank" if you will of interested players. You then need to provide this bank of players to those who want to make their own matchups on your site. They then need to choose from this bank of pre-consenting players to put up a match up between for example destiny and Catz (idk).
This is my thoughts exactly. I would never want pledge money to a show match that might never happen. If there is a pool of Players who already expressed interest, it would be better
Seems like this goes against the whole purpose of the site to me.
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have.
What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined.
On October 27 2011 00:38 Nalesnik wrote: So he is selling off incredible show-matches between famous players, and he hasn't even told the players about this? ...really?
I think you're miss understanding the point of the site. I'm not "selling off show-matches", I'm trying to give fans another voice and players another possible source of revenue.
Also, I have e-mail players about the site, but they are busy people and they likely overlooked the e-mail and tweet.
Yes, but your collecting money from a website that you created, without any guarantee that the show-matches will ever take place.
Sorry man, but you need something more solid than that for people to trust you.
Refunding all the donations you collected so far, and hold off collecting any more for now until you can guarantee the show-matches (contacting players for their approval etc) will go a LONG way into making this project legit. If you can't do that, I don't see any reason anyone should trust you with their money.
IF this guy is legit and actually takes the time to organize a collection for enough money for a community based showmatch then why not. I see nothing strange with the idea itself. He could be pulling a prank and take the money but this kind of stuff works, I mean it's how we get community matches between pro players.
TotalBiscuit does all the time. He gets donations and uses the money to organize tournaments with a relative small pricepool witch attracts pro players and they attend since it's a community effort. Its a fanservice of sorts from the pro players that attend since they don't get that much money.
This guy should be confirming which players would be willing first before anything else. He jumped the gun big time. So Destiny thinks its a good idea? Can you make a show match of Destiny v Destiny? I see no reason to believe that any of the money donated to this site will ever end up in a show match.
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have.
What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined.
Right, at worse I'm out $10 until I report it to paypal. But like I said, my account has not been charged. Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean it's okay to call them a scammer. Until I get charged without seeing that show match, it's not a scam. The pending authorization expires on November 24th, so he has access to my $10 until then.
You're "what if instead" is not that different than your run of the mill show match, this idea is better because it is automated and limitless, so any match can be set at any price. If the price is right, some pros will bite.
Fantastic idea for a site... from what I've seen so far I don't think it's a scam at all. I agree that there should be a player pool of players that have approved showmatches for the site to pull from though, fans shouldn't be able to pledge donations to matches that have 0% chance of happening.
If you do make such a player pool, I am happy to be in it~! ^^
I mean it's fine for the community to request matches, but the fact that you're pledging money to a showmatch like Day9 vs Tasteless or matches involving NesTea which are CLEARLY not going to happen no matter how much money is given.. idk.
If this got established, I could see it being fantastic for both players and fans and extremely successful.
Fairly or unfairly, our community has shunned projects for less. If ProVPro regroup, make a few changes, and reach out - it can fulfill the potential that exists in this concept. We won't be debating it so vigorously if there's no hope in it to succeed.
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have.
What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined.
Right, at worse I'm out $10 until I report it to paypal. But like I said, my account has not been charged. Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean it's okay to call them a scammer. Until I get charged without seeing that show match, it's not a scam. The pending authorization expires on November 24th, so he has access to my $10 until then.
You're "what if instead" is not that different than your run of the mill show match, this idea is better because it is automated and limitless, so any match can be set at any price. If the price is right, some pros will bite.
There's no reason that the donations will stop coming in when the lower limit is met, it's just a guarantee that the games will actually be played when that amount of money is reached instead of just throwing money at a website as pledges, in many cases with the players completely oblivious to what you are doing let alone having any idea as to whether or not they want to play for the amount that has been reached.
You might get one of your fantasy match ups to go through with this amidst a huge proportion that just fall by the wayside because of a silly set up.
People can add match ups without the pledges, there's a system in place to show support without money already. The next step can be contacting players of match ups the fans really want to see, gauging their interest, setting a limit, and opening donations.
The only significant difference is my idea actually has some element of organisation to it
At first I thought that this had to be a scam because MrBitter is never wrong <3 but as I read on and saw Xavi's credentials it seems like a really cool idea that I think a lot of people would be into. If reddit could raise 4 grand in a couple of hours to send MKP to MLG then I think that a LOT of people would be more than happy to pay a couple of bucks to see their favorite players duke it out. Keep up the good work Xavi!
On October 27 2011 01:19 MstrJinbo wrote: @Pokebunny you'd do a one of these showmatches if asked right?
Of course
I think showmatches are great - simple and effective, don't require too much work like following a tournament, and fans get the games they want while players are decently paid for not too much time.
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have.
What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined.
Right, at worse I'm out $10 until I report it to paypal. But like I said, my account has not been charged. Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean it's okay to call them a scammer. Until I get charged without seeing that show match, it's not a scam. The pending authorization expires on November 24th, so he has access to my $10 until then.
You're "what if instead" is not that different than your run of the mill show match, this idea is better because it is automated and limitless, so any match can be set at any price. If the price is right, some pros will bite.
There's no reason that the donations will stop coming in when the lower limit is met, it's just a guarantee that the games will actually be played when that amount of money is reached instead of just throwing money at a website as pledges, in many cases with the players completely oblivious to what you are doing let alone having any idea as to whether or not they want to play for the amount that has been reached.
You might get one of your fantasy match ups to go through with this amidst a huge proportion that just fall by the wayside because of a silly set up.
People can add match ups without the pledges, there's a system in place to show support without money already. The next step can be contacting players of match ups the fans really want to see, gauging their interest, setting a limit, and opening donations.
The only significant difference is my idea actually has some element of organisation to it
It still defeats the entire purpose of the site - giving the power to the community. Yes it lacks front loaded organization, it couldn't work in the same way if it had that.
This can become and always on price tag for show matches.
On October 27 2011 01:19 MstrJinbo wrote: @Pokebunny you'd do a one of these showmatches if asked right?
Of course
I think showmatches are great - simple and effective, don't require too much work like following a tournament, and fans get the games they want while players are decently paid for not too much time.
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have.
What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined.
Right, at worse I'm out $10 until I report it to paypal. But like I said, my account has not been charged. Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean it's okay to call them a scammer. Until I get charged without seeing that show match, it's not a scam. The pending authorization expires on November 24th, so he has access to my $10 until then.
You're "what if instead" is not that different than your run of the mill show match, this idea is better because it is automated and limitless, so any match can be set at any price. If the price is right, some pros will bite.
There's no reason that the donations will stop coming in when the lower limit is met, it's just a guarantee that the games will actually be played when that amount of money is reached instead of just throwing money at a website as pledges, in many cases with the players completely oblivious to what you are doing let alone having any idea as to whether or not they want to play for the amount that has been reached.
You might get one of your fantasy match ups to go through with this amidst a huge proportion that just fall by the wayside because of a silly set up.
People can add match ups without the pledges, there's a system in place to show support without money already. The next step can be contacting players of match ups the fans really want to see, gauging their interest, setting a limit, and opening donations.
The only significant difference is my idea actually has some element of organisation to it
It still defeats the entire purpose of the site - giving the power to the community. Yes it lacks front loaded organization, it couldn't work in the same way if it had that.
This can become and always on price tag for show matches.
You can't give power to the community when the site doesn't have the authority to give that power... the power is in the players. If the players aren't willing to play, the site should not be able to advertise them as a showmatch possibility. Even if they're not promising anything, the prospect of a match is false advertisement that draws people to their site for nothing.
I think players should be able to sign up for the player pool, with requirement of having games listed in TLPD (or something of the sort to prove they are notable), then setting their minimum requirement for a match / servers willing to play / etc.
listen to Pokebunny, and if anyone is likely to get your foot in the door as an organizer, it's an established pro like him. Nice initiative Pokebunny :-) This could be a really good system for less famous players to get some money and some limelight if they're paired up agaisnt some really famous ones
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that:
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match".
I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged.
It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have.
What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined.
Right, at worse I'm out $10 until I report it to paypal. But like I said, my account has not been charged. Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean it's okay to call them a scammer. Until I get charged without seeing that show match, it's not a scam. The pending authorization expires on November 24th, so he has access to my $10 until then.
You're "what if instead" is not that different than your run of the mill show match, this idea is better because it is automated and limitless, so any match can be set at any price. If the price is right, some pros will bite.
There's no reason that the donations will stop coming in when the lower limit is met, it's just a guarantee that the games will actually be played when that amount of money is reached instead of just throwing money at a website as pledges, in many cases with the players completely oblivious to what you are doing let alone having any idea as to whether or not they want to play for the amount that has been reached.
You might get one of your fantasy match ups to go through with this amidst a huge proportion that just fall by the wayside because of a silly set up.
People can add match ups without the pledges, there's a system in place to show support without money already. The next step can be contacting players of match ups the fans really want to see, gauging their interest, setting a limit, and opening donations.
The only significant difference is my idea actually has some element of organisation to it
It still defeats the entire purpose of the site - giving the power to the community. Yes it lacks front loaded organization, it couldn't work in the same way if it had that.
This can become and always on price tag for show matches.
You can't give power to the community when the site doesn't have the authority to give that power... the power is in the players. If the players aren't willing to play, the site should not be able to advertise them as a showmatch possibility.
I think players should be able to sign up for the player pool, with requirement of having games listed in TLPD (or something of the sort to prove they are notable), then setting their minimum requirement for a match / servers willing to play / etc.
It's giving the community the power to ask for a match and set a price for it, that's all I meant.
I think there would be players unwilling to sign up, but would change there mind if the price is high enough. That's why I like the current form better.
There's no way I'm giving some random site my info. If you want to, that's on you. What if this person is just waiting for a sufficient amount of credit card/paypal accounts before he makes all the transactions go through. Waiting for the first match is stupid. If this guy is serious he should have a respected member of the community handle the money. Or better yet an actual team/organization. It's a good idea but I would not recommend giving your information to this person.
Legit or not, the site implements the idea of community funded show matches poorly. Casters are a huge roll in any SC2 event and they need to be upfront about that. I can see a lot of people getting upset if they fund a show match and caster whom they dislike casts it. Additionally, there needs to be some sort of logical sorting mechanism (popularity/cash/hits).
This site feels rushed and because of that I see people getting very upset, even if it is legit and give centrally run community show matches a bad name.
What would be the best way to organise it (probably) would be to gather up players who are willing to participate, and get their to agree to having showmatches (within reason), and then add their names to a list which people can pick from of who they want to see.
Obviously contacting players requires effort and contacts, but once you get the ball rolling it should pick up. Lots of players participate in showmatches, so if you ask them if they would be willing to be part of such a site, then you have your playerbase set up, which can expand over time, and people who vote on a match would have some confidence the players would play.
It's a great idea, but you need the players to sign up first IMO before you can really start going. For them it's an easy way to make money in exchange for a small time commitment. For the community it's a way to see two players they want to have playing engage in a showmatch.
If someone who had contacts (e.g. MrBitter, not that he's required to, but he's the one who is active in the thread and talking to the creator) got behind it and encouraged players to "sign up" to be eligible for picking, it could really get it going.
If someone who had contacts (e.g. MrBitter, not that he's required to, but he's the one who is active in the thread and talking to the creator) got behind it and encouraged players to "sign up" to be eligible for picking, it could really get it going.
Isn't it wonderful, Xavi was just complaining about not able to reach a community veteran to properly vet his concept. I hope they dont' end up at each others' throat.
On October 27 2011 01:25 Pokebunny wrote: You can't give power to the community when the site doesn't have the authority to give that power... the power is in the players. If the players aren't willing to play, the site should not be able to advertise them as a showmatch possibility. Even if they're not promising anything, the prospect of a match is false advertisement that draws people to their site for nothing.
I think players should be able to sign up for the player pool, with requirement of having games listed in TLPD (or something of the sort to prove they are notable), then setting their minimum requirement for a match / servers willing to play / etc.
It's a fan site where fans say who they want to see play each other with the most obvious incentive to anyone. There is no guarantee made anywhere saying the matches will ever even happen. If the players aren't interested, they'll say so when asked to play for $100's of dollars and that will be that. It is probably not something that can be set up ahead of time in TLPD since players might be bronze league or never even have played before (e.g. Joe Rogan vs Sundance).
I get the impression from reading through the thread that people are upset this guy might make $10 from promoting fun matches that people want to see. The thread title itself is already a guilty until proven innocent accusation. Pretty lame sc2 community, pretty lame.
Btw. Did you guys notice that this thread have attracted: a) casters - lets seee.... MrBitter, Ipp b) players - Pokebunny c) guys with good idea - Primadog
I think Xavi-avi now can finnaly contact some guys ^^
On the topic on things needed to improve. When you create a showmatch it would be good to have a option to name the caster for that showmatch. Of course people who would donate to price pool would be able to add their favorite. So we would have eg: Artosis vs Tasteless below: casted by: hmmm Ipp, MrBitter.
The caster who gets mentioned more times will be a first pick while contacting to set up that show-match (apart of players of course)
Also the match time-out counter (basically the max date the match might take place and if not the money return date ) If match is confirmed. A big confirmed sign and count down to the show-match.
On October 27 2011 01:50 Sc2ggRise wrote: I get the impression from reading through the thread that people are upset this guy might make $10 from promoting fun matches that people want to see. The thread title itself is already a guilty until proven innocent accusation. Pretty lame sc2 community, pretty lame.
Agreed Rise, agreed.
Unless any publicity is good publicity, this guy has had his name muddied without any evidence that he's done anything wrong. I think that the thread should either be closed or renamed (since it has sparked some interesting discussion.)
On October 27 2011 01:50 Sc2ggRise wrote: I get the impression from reading through the thread that people are upset this guy might make $10 from promoting fun matches that people want to see. The thread title itself is already a guilty until proven innocent accusation. Pretty lame sc2 community, pretty lame.
Agreed Rise, agreed.
Unless any publicity is good publicity, this guy has had his name muddied without any evidence that he's done anything wrong. I think that the thread should either be closed or renamed (since it has sparked some interesting discussion.)
Just a poor choice of thread title.
(Cast some SC2 games ffs Rise)
Hell, sign up to be a caster for this guys showmatches Rise. It would be even more awesome.
On October 27 2011 01:53 Geovu wrote: At first I thought it was obviously a scam. The site looks too good to be true. iNcontroL vs Nestea or Destiny? Lol
I wonder what the demand for show matches is right now. I know for me, there's so many tournaments out there, that I see the majority of players play quite often, so I don't even watch current show matches that happen now. Plus, with so many streamers, you see people play their ladder games all the time where they'll run into other pros on ladder often.
It is, in my mind, overwhelmingly likely to be a scam. Failing that, it's a ridiculously poorly thought out scheme:
When does my donation exit my account? What if the match never happens? When you make a donation, ProVPro only gets authorization to charge your credit card or paypal at a later time (within 28 days). Money isn't actually collected until the match takes place. If the match doesn't happen within 28 days after you donate, you are no longer obligated to pay.
Firstly, there is no expiration date on any of the matches collections, they could be 'collecting' for up to 28 days, there is no mention of any sort of fundraising deadline, which is odd/concerning. Secondly, afaik, nobody has contacted any of the people who would presumably give showmatches-- organizing something takes time, you need to accomodate peoples' schedules, etc, yet they claim that people won't get charged until AFTER the match takes place?
I think this topic was justified. The whole concept of the website seemed shady especially considering it came out of nowhere suddenly asking for money for matchups that seemed very difficult to put together. Would you all have preferred for Bitter to ignore the site and wait for if people got ripped off (hypothetically)?
It would probably have been a better idea to ask players to sign up to be in the player pool for which you choose show matches before starting something like this.
On October 27 2011 01:59 caradoc wrote: It is, in my mind, overwhelmingly likely to be a scam. Failing that, it's a ridiculously poorly thought out scheme:
When does my donation exit my account? What if the match never happens? When you make a donation, ProVPro only gets authorization to charge your credit card or paypal at a later time (within 28 days). Money isn't actually collected until the match takes place. If the match doesn't happen within 28 days after you donate, you are no longer obligated to pay.
Firstly, there is no expiration date on any of the matches collections, they could be 'collecting' for up to 28 days, there is no mention of any sort of fundraising deadline, which is odd/concerning. Secondly, afaik, nobody has contacted any of the people who would presumably give showmatches-- organizing something takes time, you need to accomodate peoples' schedules, etc, yet they claim that people won't get charged until AFTER the match takes place?
Yeah it needs a visible time window for when the donations will expire.
Like after the first person creates matches and pledges the first $10, it needs to show a 28 day countdown for that match so people know they have to donate in that time frame if they want the match to happen. People who donate after the first day should have the same expiration date as the original pledge, so that everyone's pledge for that match will expire at the same time.
Sounds like a scam to me, because I would like to think some of the people that are supposedly going to be involved in these show matches would be supporting this site or at least mentioning something about it in someway. I find it a bit strange that this site is asking for donations and then says "We will get Nestea to iNcontrol"....I doubt it. "I'll just call up Nestea or MMA and say, he I am putting together a show match, told the community you'd do it if I received enough donations" Something like this just starting off...these are some big names to go after, something smaller scale at first would make this seem more legitimate.
EDIT: Thanks MrBitter for bringing this to the attention of the community.
On October 27 2011 01:25 Pokebunny wrote: You can't give power to the community when the site doesn't have the authority to give that power... the power is in the players. If the players aren't willing to play, the site should not be able to advertise them as a showmatch possibility. Even if they're not promising anything, the prospect of a match is false advertisement that draws people to their site for nothing.
I think players should be able to sign up for the player pool, with requirement of having games listed in TLPD (or something of the sort to prove they are notable), then setting their minimum requirement for a match / servers willing to play / etc.
It's a fan site where fans say who they want to see play each other with the most obvious incentive to anyone. There is no guarantee made anywhere saying the matches will ever even happen. If the players aren't interested, they'll say so when asked to play for $100's of dollars and that will be that. It is probably not something that can be set up ahead of time in TLPD since players might be bronze league or never even have played before (e.g. Joe Rogan vs Sundance).
I get the impression from reading through the thread that people are upset this guy might make $10 from promoting fun matches that people want to see. The thread title itself is already a guilty until proven innocent accusation. Pretty lame sc2 community, pretty lame.
Nyovne said it best in his post, IMO
There's nothing lame about speaking up when you think someone might be getting screwed. It's a hell of a lot more lame to stand around and do nothing, in my opinion.
I talked to Xavi for about 30 minutes.
While I'm still not completely convinced, he pointed out, very correctly, that there is virtually no risk to the community here.
There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen.
But I don't believe he has bad intentions. He's a real dude - not some Russian hacker ripping off people's social security numbers.
The launch of the site might have been a bit hasty, and the lack of polish on smaller details like casters and streaming is a bit unfortunate, but I feel like he's actually a pretty legit guy, trying to provide something to the community.
I gave him some contacts to hopefully help him along, and I will continue to keep in touch with him, and, so long as everything is proven to be legit, will help him out where I can.
Again, I'm still not 100% convinced, but it's starting to look like I might owe Xavi an apology or three.
On October 27 2011 01:54 Frankon wrote: Btw. Did you guys notice that this thread have attracted: a) casters - lets seee.... MrBitter, Ipp b) players - Pokebunny c) guys with good idea - Primadog
I think Xavi-avi now can finnaly contact some guys ^^
On the topic on things needed to improve. When you create a showmatch it would be good to have a option to name the caster for that showmatch. Of course people who would donate to price pool would be able to add their favorite. So we would have eg: Artosis vs Tasteless below: casted by: hmmm Ipp, MrBitter.
The caster who gets mentioned more times will be a first pick while contacting to set up that show-match (apart of players of course)
Also the match time-out counter (basically the max date the match might take place and if not the money return date ) If match is confirmed. A big confirmed sign and count down to the show-match.
On October 27 2011 02:09 TheSasquatch wrote: Sounds like a scam to me, because I would like to think some of the people that are supposedly going to be involved in these show matches would be supporting this site or at least mentioning something about it in someway. I find it a bit strange that this site is asking for donations and then says "We will get Nestea to iNcontrol"....I doubt it. "I'll just call up Nestea or MMA and say, he I am putting together a show match, told the community you'd do it if I received enough donations" Something like this just starting off...these are some big names to go after, something smaller scale at first would make this seem more legitimate.
EDIT: Thanks MrBitter for bringing this to the attention of the community.
Your not understanding how the site works, scam or not.
Anyone can put up a match on the site and pledge money, the idea being that the people involved in the potential match think "oh, there's $1000 of money if I play this game and win" and then sort out the match.
I could go on now and pledge $1000 for me vs sAvior if I wanted to/had the money (on the massively low chance it happened). Doesn't mean it will ever actually happen/money will change hands.
On October 27 2011 02:12 MrBitter wrote: While I'm still not completely convinced, he pointed out, very correctly, that there is virtually no risk to the community here.
There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen.
The fact that he had to point this out to you shows that you went way too far with the tone of your OP.
Before you call someone a scammer for taking paypal pledges you should consider the implications of using paypal.
You took a really cool concept and gave the first impression to TL as a scam. When he was willing to come here and talk about it all along.
You know what they say about first impressions...
Everything you did to get to the bottom of this could have been done without parading this out in public.
In mrbitter's defense, cc and paypal fraud protection doesn't stop anyone from scamming. There had been, and always will be, plenty of ways people will try to make a quick buck.
What reassure me, though, is mrbitter's personal stance has changed. Having a community veteran looking though the details reassure me that the effort is legit. Look forward to what comes out of ProVPro.
I hope we didn't managed to scare Xavi away, but instead provided him throughout this thread, good ideas to make this concept even better.
On October 27 2011 02:12 MrBitter wrote: There's nothing lame about speaking up when you thinksomeone might be getting screwed. It's a hell of a lot more lame to stand around and do nothing, in my opinion.
Yes there is, in some cases. There was a sportswriter in Toronto last year who wrote a blog about Jose Bautista (Home Run Champ 2 years running now). The title of the article was "Is he on steroids? The question has to be asked." No evidence to back up saying so, linking his name with steroids completely unjustifiably. He took universal panning from the rest of Toronto's sports media.
What was done in the OP and title of this is analogous to this.
On October 27 2011 01:25 Pokebunny wrote: You can't give power to the community when the site doesn't have the authority to give that power... the power is in the players. If the players aren't willing to play, the site should not be able to advertise them as a showmatch possibility. Even if they're not promising anything, the prospect of a match is false advertisement that draws people to their site for nothing.
I think players should be able to sign up for the player pool, with requirement of having games listed in TLPD (or something of the sort to prove they are notable), then setting their minimum requirement for a match / servers willing to play / etc.
It's a fan site where fans say who they want to see play each other with the most obvious incentive to anyone. There is no guarantee made anywhere saying the matches will ever even happen. If the players aren't interested, they'll say so when asked to play for $100's of dollars and that will be that. It is probably not something that can be set up ahead of time in TLPD since players might be bronze league or never even have played before (e.g. Joe Rogan vs Sundance).
I get the impression from reading through the thread that people are upset this guy might make $10 from promoting fun matches that people want to see. The thread title itself is already a guilty until proven innocent accusation. Pretty lame sc2 community, pretty lame.
Nyovne said it best in his post, IMO
There's nothing lame about speaking up when you think someone might be getting screwed. It's a hell of a lot more lame to stand around and do nothing, in my opinion.
I talked to Xavi for about 30 minutes.
While I'm still not completely convinced, he pointed out, very correctly, that there is virtually no risk to the community here.
There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen.
But I don't believe he has bad intentions. He's a real dude - not some Russian hacker ripping off people's social security numbers.
The launch of the site might have been a bit hasty, and the lack of polish on smaller details like casters and streaming is a bit unfortunate, but I feel like he's actually a pretty legit guy, trying to provide something to the community.
I gave him some contacts to hopefully help him along, and I will continue to keep in touch with him, and, so long as everything is proven to be legit, will help him out where I can.
Again, I'm still not 100% convinced, but it's starting to look like I might owe Xavi an apology or three.
You really don't owe him an apology. The presentation and execution were piss poor. It looked and continues to look fishy and scam-like.
If anything he should be happy this thread was made because a lot of us have pointed out the negatives, a discussion has ensued and because of this you gave him contacts. He has started on the road to getting this off the ground. Now with a few more tweaks and changes it might actually turn into what he expected and wanted it to be.
It seems less fishy as time goes on because he is able to expound and explain himself more clearly than on the website. This being said until I see something come out of this I will be wary but that should always be the case with everything that is a startup.
Worst case: he rebrands it and opens it up with more community and caster support.
Although I understand Mr.Bitter's intentions were mainly to protect the community, I would be careful before making accusations like this in the future. Legally those were baseless and could have been grounds for litigation if the damage to Xavi's reputation had been significant enough. I Love Mr.Bitter's work in general but that was not a very cool thing to do...
"There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen."
Unless they changed their ToS the last year, there is absolutely no fraud protection in PayPal..in fact, there is a written rule stating they will NOT help with fraud. Which Kinda left me out dark when I bought a paintball gun worth 500usd, recieved an empty box, and PayPal refused to help.
On October 27 2011 02:26 Excludos wrote: "There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen."
Unless they changed their ToS the last year, there is absolutely no fraud protection in PayPal..in fact, there is a written rule stating they will NOT help with fraud. Which Kinda left me out dark when I bought a paintball gun worth 500usd, recieved an empty box, and PayPal refused to help.
Ya, saying that is misleading at best. Even credit cards, which does offer full fraud protection, is a bitch to work with and takes forever to get your money back.
Not a strike against mrbitter or xavi, just that it's a nonargument.
On October 27 2011 02:26 Excludos wrote: "There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen."
Unless they changed their ToS the last year, there is absolutely no fraud protection in PayPal..in fact, there is a written rule stating they will NOT help with fraud. Which Kinda left me out dark when I bought a paintball gun worth 500usd, recieved an empty box, and PayPal refused to help.
I've received full refunds from Paypal in the past. They do have fraud protection in Canada and the States at least, this I know first hand.
On October 27 2011 02:26 Excludos wrote: "There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen."
Unless they changed their ToS the last year, there is absolutely no fraud protection in PayPal..in fact, there is a written rule stating they will NOT help with fraud. Which Kinda left me out dark when I bought a paintball gun worth 500usd, recieved an empty box, and PayPal refused to help.
I'm not too savy on this subject but as far as I know paypal pretty much always sides with the buyer.
I hope I'm not breaking any rules here (sorry I normally stick to reddit), but I'm the creator of the site design. I was contacted by Xavi after he saw a wallpaper I posted, and we worked together for a few weeks. I can maybe help answer any question or concerns?
Ok, maybe I am just too old, but please help me: This is a site where everyone can select two random people to make a SC2 showmatch against each other. Others are then asked to donate money to a virtual pool as prize money to someone who identifies himself by giving two email adresses. If the match happens it will be streamed (nothing sure says the page) and maybe commentated. There is nothing aranged for streaming, commentating nor the players are even asked beforehand. If the match does not happen the money is not taken from the donors (so says the owner of the site).
On October 27 2011 02:26 Excludos wrote: "There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen."
Unless they changed their ToS the last year, there is absolutely no fraud protection in PayPal..in fact, there is a written rule stating they will NOT help with fraud. Which Kinda left me out dark when I bought a paintball gun worth 500usd, recieved an empty box, and PayPal refused to help.
I've received full refunds from Paypal in the past. They do have fraud protection in Canada and the States at least, this I know first hand.
maybe you bought it through ebay? Ebay has a fraud protection.
Also, PayPal does have protection against packages not being sent. But if the seller sends an empty package, like he did with me, then it counts as fraud. And paypal does not help with that.
This is from their own site:
"When you pay with PayPal, you gain access to a forum for dispute resolution called the Resolution Center. Through it, you can file a claim against: A physical good that you paid for but never received.
A physical good you purchased on eBay that is significantly different than what was described in the listing."
Notice how it doesn't state that they protect vs "significantly different" product NOT bought on ebay.
So if you pay to this site, and it doesn't deliver, PayPal wont help you.
On October 27 2011 02:26 Excludos wrote: "There is fraud and theft protection built into PayPal, and into the credit card companies that would protect us as individuals should something shady happen."
Unless they changed their ToS the last year, there is absolutely no fraud protection in PayPal..in fact, there is a written rule stating they will NOT help with fraud. Which Kinda left me out dark when I bought a paintball gun worth 500usd, recieved an empty box, and PayPal refused to help.
I've received full refunds from Paypal in the past. They do have fraud protection in Canada and the States at least, this I know first hand.
maybe you bought it through ebay? Ebay has a fraud protection.
Also, PayPal does have protection against packages not being sent. But if the seller sends an empty package, like he did with me, then it counts as fraud. And paypal does not help with that.
This is from their own site:
"When you pay with PayPal, you gain access to a forum for dispute resolution called the Resolution Center. Through it, you can file a claim against: A physical good that you paid for but never received.
A physical good you purchased on eBay that is significantly different than what was described in the listing."
Notice how it doesn't state that they protect vs "significantly different" product NOT bought on ebay.
So if you pay to this site, and it doesn't deliver, PayPal wont help you.
Maybe my English is not good enough but a empty package is a "A physical good that you paid for but never received." You pay for the inside of the package not the package itself...
Bought through online vendor based in the US shipped to Canada. Not eBay. The vendor was REALLY pissed about it, but I returned the item and recuperated everything I'd paid.
Why don't you file under the A physical good that you paid for but never received. you're talking about. You bought a gun and received a box...
Let's not derail this thread any further, PM me if you wish.
On October 27 2011 03:00 Zorkmid wrote: Bought through online vendor based in the US shipped to Canada. Not eBay. The vendor was REALLY pissed about it, but I returned the item and recuperated everything I'd paid.
Why don't you file under the A physical good that you paid for but never received. you're talking about. You bought a gun and received a box...
Let's not derail this thread any further, PM me if you wish.
I filed it under that at first, when he didn't send a package at all. Then he sent an empty package, and I updated the dispute stating what had happened. PayPal then closed the dispute, and told me they don't protect vs scam. When a dispute is closed in paypal, it can never be opened again under any circumstances.
edit: also, this isn't derailing the thread imo, as its kinda important for people to know if they are protected vs donating to this site for this cause. And they are not. Thats not to say this is a scam though. If the user a few posts above is indeed the owner of the site, then that points to it maybe being ok. Considering he actually took the time to register on TL
On October 27 2011 03:00 Zorkmid wrote: Bought through online vendor based in the US shipped to Canada. Not eBay. The vendor was REALLY pissed about it, but I returned the item and recuperated everything I'd paid.
Why don't you file under the A physical good that you paid for but never received. you're talking about. You bought a gun and received a box...
Let's not derail this thread any further, PM me if you wish.
I filed it under that at first, when he didn't send a package at all. Then he sent an empty package, and I updated the dispute stating what had happened. PayPal then closed the dispute, and told me they don't protect vs scam. When a dispute is closed in paypal, it can never be opened again under any circumstances.
edit: also, this isn't derailing the thread imo, as its kinda important for people to know if they are protected vs donating to this site for this cause. And they are not. Thats not to say this is a scam though. If the user a few posts above is indeed the owner of the site, then that points to it maybe being ok. Considering he actually took the time to register on TL
Well, there's gotta be something you're not telling us about your gun, because that seems ludicrous that you can be charged $500 for an empty box.
On October 27 2011 03:00 Zorkmid wrote: Bought through online vendor based in the US shipped to Canada. Not eBay. The vendor was REALLY pissed about it, but I returned the item and recuperated everything I'd paid.
Why don't you file under the A physical good that you paid for but never received. you're talking about. You bought a gun and received a box...
Let's not derail this thread any further, PM me if you wish.
I filed it under that at first, when he didn't send a package at all. Then he sent an empty package, and I updated the dispute stating what had happened. PayPal then closed the dispute, and told me they don't protect vs scam. When a dispute is closed in paypal, it can never be opened again under any circumstances.
edit: also, this isn't derailing the thread imo, as its kinda important for people to know if they are protected vs donating to this site for this cause. And they are not. Thats not to say this is a scam though. If the user a few posts above is indeed the owner of the site, then that points to it maybe being ok. Considering he actually took the time to register on TL
Well, there's gotta be something you're not telling us about your gun, because that seems ludicrous that you can be charged for an empty box.
Well... you can always be the test subject... and have excludos demonstrate on you first...? who knows... and you'll get to see if it was true or not?
On October 27 2011 03:00 Zorkmid wrote: Bought through online vendor based in the US shipped to Canada. Not eBay. The vendor was REALLY pissed about it, but I returned the item and recuperated everything I'd paid.
Why don't you file under the A physical good that you paid for but never received. you're talking about. You bought a gun and received a box...
Let's not derail this thread any further, PM me if you wish.
I filed it under that at first, when he didn't send a package at all. Then he sent an empty package, and I updated the dispute stating what had happened. PayPal then closed the dispute, and told me they don't protect vs scam. When a dispute is closed in paypal, it can never be opened again under any circumstances.
edit: also, this isn't derailing the thread imo, as its kinda important for people to know if they are protected vs donating to this site for this cause. And they are not. Thats not to say this is a scam though. If the user a few posts above is indeed the owner of the site, then that points to it maybe being ok. Considering he actually took the time to register on TL
Well, there's gotta be something you're not telling us about your gun, because that seems ludicrous that you can be charged $500 for an empty box.
Excludo's story is not unique. This happens unfortunately frequent in the paintball circles. How to not get scammed or who're the scammers are a frequent topic in paintball forums.
On October 27 2011 00:38 Nalesnik wrote: So he is selling off incredible show-matches between famous players, and he hasn't even told the players about this? ...really?
I think you're miss understanding the point of the site. I'm not "selling off show-matches", I'm trying to give fans another voice and players another possible source of revenue.
Also, I have e-mail players about the site, but they are busy people and they likely overlooked the e-mail and tweet.
Yes, but your collecting money from a website that you created, without any guarantee that the show-matches will ever take place.
Sorry man, but you need something more solid than that for people to trust you.
Again, I'm not collecting money. Also, again, the purpose of the site is not to "buy and sell" matches. The purpose is to give fans another voice. We all love sc2 and well all try to contribute in our own way. Some people write an insightful post on TL. Some make a rage comic for reddit. Now, some can contribute by pledging money to show-matches.
On October 27 2011 00:38 Nalesnik wrote: Refunding all the donations you collected so far, and hold off collecting any more for now until you can guarantee the show-matches (contacting players for their approval etc) will go a LONG way into making this project legit. If you can't do that, I don't see any reason anyone should trust you with their money.
This statement doesn't make sense. There is no money to refund.
If this is actually legit and ends up creating some pretty cool showmatches, I have no problem with the owner of the site making a bit of money off of it as long as he's upfront about exactly how much of a cut he takes, which he says is 10% right now.
This is an excellent idea. Providing pros with money for games and contacting them to hold matches is a brilliant and dedicated idea. Since the owner actually responded to criticism, I'm inclined to think this is a step forward, rather than...you know, a scam.
On October 27 2011 04:55 Xavi-avi wrote: Again, I'm not collecting money. Also, again, the purpose of the site is not to "buy and sell" matches. The purpose is to give fans another voice. We all love sc2 and well all try to contribute in our own way. Some people write an insightful post on TL. Some make a rage comic for reddit. Now, some can contribute by pledging money to show-matches.
Can we get this in the OP? Maybe change the title?
I put my own $10 on the line just to see what would happen, nothing has been taking out of my account like Xavi is saying.
If I lose my $10 without getting the showmatch, I'll let everyone know.
I really like the idea behind this project, and it's something I would contribute to. A number of things need to happen though. Talking to established members of the community is a good start, but you really need to lock players down before you put their pictures up and promise matches. And I realize you aren't technically making the promise, but on the flip side, yeah, you kinda are...
It might be, or might have been, a good idea to make a detailed thread beforehand to guage interest as well. That way, when you approach the higher-ups, you have a bit more credibility for having put in that extra work.
On October 27 2011 01:25 Pokebunny wrote: You can't give power to the community when the site doesn't have the authority to give that power... the power is in the players. If the players aren't willing to play, the site should not be able to advertise them as a showmatch possibility. Even if they're not promising anything, the prospect of a match is false advertisement that draws people to their site for nothing.
I think players should be able to sign up for the player pool, with requirement of having games listed in TLPD (or something of the sort to prove they are notable), then setting their minimum requirement for a match / servers willing to play / etc.
It's a fan site where fans say who they want to see play each other with the most obvious incentive to anyone. There is no guarantee made anywhere saying the matches will ever even happen. If the players aren't interested, they'll say so when asked to play for $100's of dollars and that will be that. It is probably not something that can be set up ahead of time in TLPD since players might be bronze league or never even have played before (e.g. Joe Rogan vs Sundance).
I get the impression from reading through the thread that people are upset this guy might make $10 from promoting fun matches that people want to see. The thread title itself is already a guilty until proven innocent accusation. Pretty lame sc2 community, pretty lame.
Nyovne said it best in his post, IMO
There's nothing lame about speaking up when you think someone might be getting screwed. It's a hell of a lot more lame to stand around and do nothing, in my opinion.
I agree, but as a community leader (whether you want to be or not) you need to ask these questions without a pitchfork in hand (thread title & OP). Regardless, you did the right thing by looking into it and editing your post as details surfaced.
If this site is a scam, that's not really relevant to TL. If this site isn't a scam, it can't advertise here because it violates TL's advertisement/donations policy. So I'm closing this.
EPT
