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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 12:34 Jampackedeon wrote:
I think the cooldown on blink is a way bigger issue than how long the research is...
Other than that, fungal changes could be a bit annoying since it will no longer kill banes with one fungal and will be even more useless vs mutas than before> I don't mind the damage output change but it would be nice if it stunned units longer in exchange.
Blue flame hellion changes and immortal changes could be HUGE though, I think immortals at 6 make NO sense as the biggest problems I see are not getting them to the front (rather like zealots are also frequently found at the back of a group rather than the front). Zergs barely have one ranged unit at 6 (hydra w/upgrade), much less 2.... Imagine how useless roaches become when they get outranged even without forcefields, its going to be a massacre.
Most protoss don't go into immo alot because of the high cost and how just a little bit more pays for a colo instead and when they do go immo its because the Z are so roach heavy, not having any other type of unit. Still have yet to see P go more than 3-4 immo at a time though, maybe it will change with this patch?
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On August 25 2011 12:26 IPA wrote:
Can a high level terran talk about the implications of the HSM buff? Do you think this will lead to a rise in Raven play within any particular match up?
I'm not sure what your definition of high level is, but if mid high masters is enough I can throw out my opinion. I think no, ravens simply cost to much to get in use. To have one raven, which already have been used, will still be quite common, possibly two or three, but I doubt it will be any heavy raven play like how science vessels was used in BW.
I think the biggest problem with ravens is that to make them really good, you need to invest SOO much in them. Because if you are actually gonna pump a lot of ravens, there is 3 heavy costing uppgrades in the tech lab, and two more on the engi bay (those are only to improve auto turrets though, so I guess you could skip those) that you need to make them really shine. This makes it so that it's very hard to start using heavy raven, until really really late game (like how it has shown some use in latelate TvT air play), as the investment is so big that you'll be an easy target in the transition.
Though, I should also admit that I'm not quite sure how big of a speed buff the buff is, because I don't actually know about the numbers for movement speed different units have, but I personally feel seeker missile is a very clumpsy weapon, and will keep being a such.
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Am I crazy, or is this a Massive Infestor BUFF, not nerf?
Fungal damage is reduced to 30 and 40 from 36/46
But If NP'd units now retain their upgrades, then +2 on a single NP'd Colossus is way more damage than they've been nerfed on FG.
Out of every ability the Infestor actually has, and every aspect of those abilities...the actual damage done is like 8th on my list of concerns.
Most people would tend to say it's the range, the movement half, the unit cost, the burrow, the NP range, the low cost of Infested Terrans etc...
But 6hp damage less? who cares?
I read all these, and I don't know what these changes actually address? Aside from the Blue Flame Helion change...which again, I would have expected like an added 25 gas cost or something as opposed to the upgrade being cut in half.
The Blink Change, I really don't get in any universe...This is an attempt to get more people back into 4 gating or something?
And Ultras getting a 15 second faster build time is seemingly based on nothing at all.
It is good to have a mild Mothership buff, for the Never times I've used it.
I don't understand what Blizz is trying to do in this patch.
And actually BUFFING the Raven? are you kidding me? It's basically the unit causing the 1-1-1 to be so effective, and they buff it.
HSM is going to be insane at that speed...many units barely outrun it as it is.
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On August 25 2011 12:35 Slago wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:22 david.oh.k wrote:
hey ravens can counter infestors now, seeker missiles can now catch the infestors off creep and kill them :D terrans don't have to only rely on ghosts anymore! your absolutely right, terran should have multiple counters to everything
What happens if a Zerg unit being chased by a HSM uses Burrow?
On August 25 2011 12:40 EnderSword wrote:
HSM is going to be insane at that speed...many units barely outrun it as it is.
Fun fact, Stalkers and Ultralisks are 0.0001 faster than the new HSM.
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On August 25 2011 12:39 eviltomahawk wrote:
Also interesting to note is the HSM speed change from 2.5 to 2.953.
A Viking flies at a speed of 2.5.
A Corruptor flies at a speed of 2.9531 (according to Liquipedia).
A Banshee flies at a speed of 2.75.
It is now harder for Vikings, Banshees, and Corruptors to dodge HSM. How much harder needs to be tested on the PTR.
Just food for thought.
Vikings are the same speed as banshees - 2.75.
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All seem like good changes, but the blueflame nerf is a little ridiculous. Bring it down to 8 maybe?
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On August 25 2011 12:37 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:35 Empirimancer wrote:
- The problem with the blue flame nerf is that while it was too good against workers, it was fine against fighting units like zealots and zerglings. It would be nice if Blizzard found a way to nerf the BFH against workers but not against other units. Also, if you're going to reduce an upgrade's effectiveness by 50%, shouldn't its cost be reduced accordingly?
- As others have noted, the Blink research time nerf is weird. The research time isn't what zergs were complaining about, it's the cooldown. Not that I think their complaint is warranted.
- And finally, the additional 5 seconds to barracks building time is a horrible idea. I mean, why? Some have suggested it's to nerf bunker rushes. I don't think that's needed, but even if it was, isn't it obviously a bad idea to alter every timing Terrans have to nerf one tactic?
All the other changes look fine to me. The nerf doesn't affect the efficacy against zerglings.
blizzard already found a way as the above said
zealots still get raped really hard either way
u can still 2 shot workers later in the game when you have attack upgrades, so mid-late game harass will be the same, just early aggression is different (helps against builds like slayers TvZ hellion elevator i guess)
But now it is 3 shots vs scvs with blue flame, 4 without. So for those with BFH drop timings, the blue flame will still help.
and this helps hydralisks too as they die in 5 (6? not sure if zerg can regen between flame attacks) hits instead of 4, so [especially if it takes 6 hits], hydras can be viable vs Mech (position behind roaches)
note that being able to use hydras better will also help vs air/mech, despite air getting a small buff with the seeker missile speed increase
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On August 25 2011 12:30 eviltomahawk wrote:
Pondering the change to Fungal in relation to its overall DPS...
pre-1.4, Fungals deal 36 base damage over 4 in-game seconds, or about 9 DPS.
1.4 PTR, Fungals deal 30 base damage over 4 in-game seconds, or about 7.5 DPS.
It is especially interesting to note that Medivacs heal at a rate of about 9 health per in-game second.
Therefore, Fungal DPS is now less than a Medivac's heal rate, which may be one of the important factors influencing this change.
Perhaps infestors will transition into more of an energy depletion/snare role against medbio? I guess muta/ling/bling with a handful of infestors will be better now.
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I think the changes are pretty nice, the blink decrease will help with zvp against the blink 6 gate. hellion is a good change cuz those wreck just way too much. the ultra patch, i dunno, i mean its still not that great of a unit just a bit faster to get. the overseer change is awesome, i really dont understand why it wasnt like that to begin with. infestor change is good i think, wonder how much it will affect the game tho because it still does a lot of damage. all in all its a pretty dece patch, some weird buffs tho like the seeker missile and the mothership acceleration.
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this patch solves 8 things:
1. Helps fight 4 gates due to immortal buff and ramp vision nerf.
2. B-Hellions one shotting workers...
3. Infestor buff against armor units helps against Toss deathball imo.
4. Bunker rushing/proxy rax is heavily nerfed due to increase rax time and scvs cannot repair themselves within.
5. HSM can actually hit stuff now (but it scares the hell out of me).
6. Mothership Recall can now be used more easily.
7. Ultras...yum
8. Overseer!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is probably my favorite thing. Now Z can scout more easily once we hit early to mid game without having to use so much gas. Also contaminate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS GONNA B SEXY!!!!!!!!
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I feel like this patch goes too far. I say revert the hellion change and the infestor change.
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just realized HSM is same speed as a stalker:D ok apparently a stalker is a lil faster :/
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On August 25 2011 12:31 SxYSpAz wrote:also, i bet marineking is pretty happy. which makes me very very happy 
MKP is back baby! No more mech in Tvt, and we know whos the king of bio
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Incredible changes. I hope they stay, except ramp one. That's mostly for 4gate and kind of hurts other situations.
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Blue flame nerf is awesome, that shit was way too OP.
Blink nerf saddens me, getting blink early helps me take map control.
Warp prism buff is good since the thing is super fragile right now.
Small infestor nerf might be a good thing, I'm undecided.
I'm not sure of the reasoning behind the barracks build time change, helps nerf marine all-ins?
Ultralisk change is good, although I don't know if it'll make more people use them.
All in all I'm pretty happy with these changes.
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On August 25 2011 12:40 Twistacles wrote:
All seem like good changes, but the blueflame nerf is a little ridiculous. Bring it down to 8 maybe?
The entire point of the 5 damage nerf is so that workers will be killed in three unupgraded volleys, rather than two. This decreases the strength of early game pressure/luck drone kills. Any higher, and it will be the same as before.
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BF hellion nerf is very welcome (yes I'm a biased zerg) but even with the fungal nerf I think this is a good patch. Also I am REALLY excited about the drone buff - no more probes running in circles at my expo stopping my hatch. I assume they changed the attack delay on the drone to be equal to the probe and scv.
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Huge buff to infestors that is listed as a non-balance change. That NP buff will have pretty big implications imo. My +3 colossus are going to hurt my army really bad now. I already thought that spell was too powerful 
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50898 Posts
On August 25 2011 12:40 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:35 Slago wrote:On August 25 2011 10:22 david.oh.k wrote:
hey ravens can counter infestors now, seeker missiles can now catch the infestors off creep and kill them :D terrans don't have to only rely on ghosts anymore! your absolutely right, terran should have multiple counters to everything What happens if a Zerg unit being chased by a HSM uses Burrow? Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:40 EnderSword wrote:
HSM is going to be insane at that speed...many units barely outrun it as it is.
Fun fact, Stalkers and Ultralisks are 0.0001 faster than the new HSM.
burrowed units still take damage from HSM,I don't know if its full damage or just the splash.
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[B]On August 25 2011 10:18 iamke55 wrote:
I'm sad that there's no 1/1/1 nerf though.
You don't think the increased barracks build time or increased immortal range will help at all?
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EPT
