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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 02:38 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:33 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2011 02:26 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 10 2011 02:23 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2011 02:17 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 10 2011 02:15 iPAndi wrote:On September 10 2011 02:14 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 10 2011 02:12 Zuxo wrote:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW YEAH. If this change go through it will be so awesome To me, you look like " LOOOOOOOL This nerf is stupid and I'm gonna freewin with Attack-move Colossi Deathballs or Heavy Mech army !!! " You are not looking for game balance, you are looking for easy-win. It really shows how stupid this nerf is. It makes the game imbalanced (worst than the current state). So you think neural is balanced as is? I think players are starting to learn to play against Infestor, and I love to see that as a Zerg player. Terran are experimenting a ton with the ghost. Protoss players make more templar, some of them are using phoenix to Graviton the Neural Parasite-Infestor to cover the rest of the army. Yes, Neural is balanced as it is to me. The counter agument would be that a lot of players have tried that and it hasn't worked very well. Still you will just say they were doing it wrong and the infestor is fine. So the end of the story is: You want your powerful unit to stay powerful. We think it is to powerful and want it to be scaled back it some way. No real starcraft player wants the easy win, I wish people would stopt throwing that around. Before this change, how many whine did you read about Neural Parasite ? Not so many I would guess... It's all about Meta games, and we start seeing very nice things from Protoss/Terran players to deal with Infestor.... I would also remind you that the Fungal Growth was buffed to deal with Protoss deathball (source : 1.3 situation report from David Kim), if the NP change goes live, the Protoss deathball will be unbeatable once again. The change is stupid, it's like removing the spell; I'm sure there are so many changes that would work perfectly. Or zerg is forced to be creative with it? Use it on immortals and target the colossi/stalkers? Also, if fungal was buffed to deal with the death ball and after this patch, still kills protoss units just as fast, how is the deathball unbeatable? Did they remove fungal as well? Creative with it ? No :/. There won't be any immortal on the field for you to Neural Parasite. Because in a Protoss deathball, Colossi deals with the roaches (which is a joke to me, Colossus is supposed to be anti-light)/ Hydra, and Blink Stalkers deals with the rest. You may still kill some of the stalkers, but all the Colossi will destroy your entiere army.
Wait, did they remove fungal growth too? Was tthere a change I didn't see? Seriously, you would think the patch said "Infestors will no longer have mana. All spells will still cost mana."
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The thing that I dont get is that NP wasnt even a point of discussion in every interview I watched from players and web shows...it never was! Fungal was yeah...Ghosts were talked about ALOT!
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uhm, i've just played PTR and tested the NP thing... it still works on colossus. not yet added or have blizzard already abandoned this dumb idea?
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On September 10 2011 02:35 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:27 Fig wrote:
No one is arguing that this isn't a nerf, that is quite obvious.
The point is that it was also quite obvious that infestors were much too versatile a unit. Unit diversity is important in SC2, and if a unit is so good that there is no reason to produce anything else, it hurts the game. Which is why they took away one aspect of it. Now there is more than one unit that it doesn't counter.
At the same time, Blizzard is trying to get more people to use carriers and motherships, and this change will allow toss players more opportunities for unit diversity as well.
It's not like they are leaving zergs high and dry either. The buff to ultras, which are very good vs stalker/colo, and making overseers cheap so you don't need to use mass fungals to detect cloaked units anymore are there to balance this out. Yes they are. This nerf directly buffs Colossi which were pretty weak against mass infestor play. So zergs will need to go back to Corruptor usage to stop Colossi balls. At least they should give corrupters +1 range so they can do their duty better. But even with this corrupters are a very boring units compared to infestors. Personally I don't have any will to play Zerg if this goes through. I don't want to use corruptors ever. I would rather quit sc2 and come back when the expansion is out (and probably quit watching sc2 with GOMTvT bullshit).
Ok well I guess some stupid people might argue this isn't a nerf, but it obviously is. I agree that corruptors are boring (and not nearly as good as vikings). I also believe that colossi are just as boring. But Blizzard has forced tosses to use them for the entirety of the game so far, because they made colossi the unit that makes up for the horrible DPS of gateway units.
I hate that zergs have to make a boring unit to kill a boring unit, and hope these units both bite the dust in the expansion. But blindly making solely infestors for ten minutes during the mid game because they are versatile enough to handle almost anything was also boring.
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corruptors are actually one of the most effective unit at neutralizing a massive unit air army, +% damage 'ability', +air attack since a good chance the zerg will be also using a flock of mutas for harass, zerg will lose the air fight but cost effeciencly, if zerg engages in the middle, then remaxs, which you cant say wg is op since there is no wg for air units... zerg will be in good shape against protoss air (including collosus). You just need to engage properly and if you get roflstomped because you engage at your own base, then its your fault you didnt react in time, didnt scout to properly engage away so you can remax. IF you still get roflstomped, check the upgrades that is important, 3rd im quite sure when you combine fungal growth with corruptors and infested terran, should be a pretty good mix to take care of tier 3 air units quite effectivly (keep in mind terran and protoss cant remake air armys as quickly as zerg can PLUS zerg should be on more bases in that phase of the game) IF you win said air fight, then you should be expecting a ground attack or a turtle, since those are the two viable options after that, knowing what to expect is half the battle!
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im not so much concerned about collosus or archons as zerg already has a few different ways to manage them.
however, mech and thors could be insane, as there really isnt a unit that deals with factory units efficiently. we'll have to see.
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On September 10 2011 01:56 darmousseh wrote:Blizzard yay! Fixed 2 very important issues with zerg. 1. Broodlords are the best end-game unit by far. This change makes is finally possible for stalkers to kill them  2. Infestors can no longer target my collosus which was probably the most ridiculous thing in the world when massed. Infestors are still the best spell casters in the game, but now they don't auto-counter the entire protoss army. Still, they are a little too strong against gateway units, but i guess I can make collosus late game now to counter it. This is turning out to be the best patch and also the most anti-destiny patch ever.
This is how I feel too (except I don't get what change you're talking about in your 1. The cliff vision when firing change ?)
I think they could nerf terran a little more, I don't know exactly how.
I feel PvZ is the real problem. TvP has a big problem too, but it's mainly from the 111. With the 111 out of the picture, the matchup will be able to evolve once more, which is not possible at the moment as all protoss builds must take 111 into account (while still dying to it, but anyway ><). And when they take 111 into account and the T doesn't do it, they die later due to their suboptimal opening. So without 111, the TvP matchup will be more or less balanced once more. (not sure this patch will affect 111 enough, but it's possible. +1 range + -5 seconds will perhaps do it.)
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On September 10 2011 02:38 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:35 sm0b wrote:On September 10 2011 02:27 Noocta wrote:On September 10 2011 02:09 sm0b wrote:On September 10 2011 02:05 DFDream wrote:
Just a thought but how are zergs supposed to deal with mass thor now?
Fungel only does 40 damage to them so it would take 10(13?) consecutive fungels to kill just a thor. Roaches melt to 200/200 thors so do mutas and in all honesty so do lings :S Zerg will have to get T3 units to help deal with T3 units instead of staying on T2 units. Broodlords do really well against Thors with ground units to support them as do +5 armored ultras. I think roach infestor will still be the mid-game answer to mech in ZvT until Greater Spire or Ultra Den is out. Plus, this Ultra change should help too You can't do that. You can't get BLs as fast as terran and protoss can get their T3. Your reasoning is wrong. You're telling me that zerg can't get any T3 units out before Terran is 200/200 in thors? You must not have read the whole post. Of course Terran can get Thors out before Zergs can get T3 but not 200/200, my post actually addressed that. Terran does not need 200/200 of Thors to do a timing attack against Zergs. Actually they have been doing that for months before Zergs figured out Neural is the best respose to this bullshit tactic. And TvZ was better for that. Watching marine/tank micro vs ling/bling/muta is much better then what we had before.
Right, I was only addressing the question DFDream had. I agree with you, I think the ling bling muta vs marine tank is very fun to watch and play and in most situations Mass Thor is less than optimal.
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On September 10 2011 02:32 Piledriver wrote:
I'm surprised no one suggested this yet, but the easier solution would have been to put Neural Parasite in Hive tech and slightly increase the gas cost by 50 (like adrenal glands for lings) , so that zergs are still vulnerable in mid game to chargelot/archon or colossus/stalker/sentry midgame timings, but they have a late game option of NP vs Colossus archon deathballs.
You might be right, but it still seems kinda ridiculous to steal around 20 army supply from your opponent and in most cases these are the most expensive units in his army. Even if this nerf gets through the testing process, NP is still a very good ability, targeting VRs and immortals, for example.
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http://sv.twitch.tv/colcatz/b/294620992 1:16 in for destiny/catz/kyles/reignfayths opinions on the NP changes.
Lotta very good points are raised.
Catz's mic is a bit super loud tho so.. Yeah. Be warned, lol.
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As a protoss player, the NP nerf is just too harsh. The primary target of NP are massive units and effectively guts the entire point of the skill. If they want it to not be able to target massive units it needs to be reworked from the ground up.
The previous NP nerf of not working on air units made a lot more sense. Infestors virtually counter everything, even air, and by making NP unusable on air units it would open up stargate tech for protoss late game and actually make the roach/BL/infestor deathball actually be able to be stop stopped.
I also like the idea of trying to put more micro into the game. FG should snare, not root, and then rebalance the damage around the snare.
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I'm surprised by all the whining. It could have been much worse.
They could have removed energy upgrade from infestors.
They could have made fungal not hit air again.
They could have nerfed the dps of fungal all the way back down to prior to being overpowered.
So now, you just have to make corruptors, you know, like all the other races when they scout a tech switch.
Thank your lucky stars its not worse. Zerg was beating terran over 60% of the time with close positions included on the "most balanced map" by the community. Just shows how little people on these forums know/understand.
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On September 10 2011 02:40 Rinnegan5 wrote:
The thing that I dont get is that NP wasnt even a point of discussion in every interview I watched from players and web shows...it never was! Fungal was yeah...Ghosts were talked about ALOT!
yep i was thinking the same.
that's actually funny how suddently everyone lose to NP, lol.
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I play toss, and I think the NP nerf is too much. There should be a trade off at least, make a buff to zerg somehow.
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On September 10 2011 02:46 Treble557 wrote: http://sv.twitch.tv/colcatz/b/294620992 1:16 in for destiny/catz/kyles/reignfayths opinions on the NP changes. Lotta very good points are raised. Catz's mic is a bit super loud tho so.. Yeah. Be warned, lol.
There is this implicit argument here that as long as a unit has a counter it should be allowed to be awesome against everything.
I've watched too much of Morrow's play to have any sort of respect for the arguments these guys are making.
edit: God help us when they balance the game on the advice of people who are financially motivated to have an imbalanced game.
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I don't know why everyone is talking about making corruptors again, it's not like deathball was solved with fungal+banelings+lings 6 months ago already.
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On September 10 2011 02:55 MrCon wrote:
I don't know why everyone is talking about making corruptors again, it's not like deathball was solved with fungal+banelings+lings 6 months ago already.
They were, until toss learned how to micro stalkers. Then it stopped being any sort of reliable.
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[small voice]I like both the mothership changes.[/small voice]
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On September 10 2011 02:46 Treble557 wrote: http://sv.twitch.tv/colcatz/b/294620992 1:16 in for destiny/catz/kyles/reignfayths opinions on the NP changes. Lotta very good points are raised. Catz's mic is a bit super loud tho so.. Yeah. Be warned, lol.
Let me guess: Matchup is fine. Protoss players just need to L2P. Something along those lines yeah?
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On September 10 2011 02:57 Jerubaal wrote:Let me guess: Matchup is fine. Protoss players just need to L2P. Something along those lines yeah?
He's goin protoss if this happens probably actually, lol.
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EPT
