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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 01:24 Moa wrote:
It is disgusting that people are welcoming this change, regardless of race.
The game needs more strategic depth, not less. If neural is an issue this is not the fix, the fix would be to BUFF the other races and give them an effective counter so that the call and response is strengthened between players. Make neural force a response so their thors don't get stomped then have a response to that. The answer to these issues should almost never be to nerf something but to buff something else adding options and depth to the game.
I don't fear this change as it is too big to be implemented, I fear the direction that blizzard is looking.
I think the role of a dispeller unit would be welcome, something that can purge debuffs like corruption, neural, fungal, etc. rather than making it completely ineffective. Something like EMP will interrupt a channeled spell or something like that.
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On September 10 2011 01:37 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 Lomak wrote:
Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike. Well at least they didn't take it away completely. They actually REMOVED both KA and void ray speed. So you can't say they are picking on zergs more than toss in that regard. I do agree that now it is a very niche spell, and they should probably make it so infestors start with neural now, or allow them to do it while burrowed. But saying that the nerfs have been focused mostly on zerg is just not true. Toss has also lost fun and interesting tactics like fazing and archon toilet, they even nerfed voidrays so charging them is barely worth it now. What I do not like is Blizzard taking away micro opportunities, and they have done that to toss far more than the other races.
Oh they didnt take it away? Why don't you re-read this thread and see how useless the spell is going to be, ITS NOT THE SAME SPELL. Storm was unchanged by the KA nerf. The stupidity of comparing the two actually makes me see red. I'm flipping table's man. There is no logical way to compare 'completely changing the functionality of a spell' to 'takes a few seconds longer to get enough energy to cast the same spell'.
IF they removed Pathogen glands THEN you could compare it to a KA nerf and it would actually fucking make sense.
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On September 10 2011 01:35 happyness wrote:
As a toss player, I actually think neural parasite should stay for massive units. First of all, this is really onlt a change for PvZ and for colossus and mothership specifically.
It should stay because now all we are going to see in PvZ is the toss building up for a colossus-mothership deathball and completely roll over the zerg once they get to 200. It's going to make for some boring late PvZ games.
In the translated words of oGsMC, "Foreigners tend to over stress the strength of 200/200 armies in SC2. A Protoss, even in Broodwar, who was let to do what he wanted to max to 200/200 would instantly kill a Zerg. That's how the game worked. That's how THIS game works too."
A more supply efficient army SHOULD beat a less supply efficient army. If you LET the Protoss turtle and hit 200 then you deserve to lose, or should have hyperinvested so hard during the interval that you could smother it with pure units anyways.
In Broodwar a Maxed Terran ground army raped the entire world.
In Broodwar a ZERG was almost always behind in supply on a PROTOSS, because a 200/200 maxed hydra/lurk/defi army was nigh impossible to hold off.
People confuse the intricacies of the game for pure statistical analysis without depth of thought.
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On September 10 2011 01:39 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:35 Zhou wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand the Neural Parasite nerf. I don't think it needed to happen this way (though I always thought it was weird if a single infestor could take over a whole mothership)
It seems like it won't have many uses at all now, beyond a few people already doing what they could with it. It's two other abilities are significantly more efficient. I think a better fix would have been to lessen the time the unit is NP'd for based on its size.
I think Blizzard's idea here though was to make infestors less important, and try to give Ultralisks a more important role. But I don't know how big the ultralisk buff will actually take place of how efficient infestors were.
For the seeker missile, I'm kind of excited about that. Something I think should have happened a while ago. Not particularly just as it helps the raven, but because it needed something more to do than chase away units in a fight. (Though if you think about it, chasing away a group of units is kind of a neato way to zone out units)
Terran generally got this nerf because of the blue flame strategy people have been using. Not sure why the barracks timing is significant, but if someone would like to explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Not sure how I feel about the protoss changes. While I think a lot of them are nice, I'm not sure how much it will work together. The immortal one is nice since they won't hur-dur into marines that often. Mothership is okay, I don't see it being used to often, as they said they didn't expect people to use it in competitive play. I'll assume they changed it for casual players to suddenly use again. Blink Change I think I am okay with. And warp prism I'm happy for, but as Protoss player I'm not sure how often we'll be seeing it. Maybe it'll be merging special tacktic(s!), but the protoss with its already easy to use warpgate mechanic doesn't really need it too much.
I guess we'll see how that works.
Bolded. The barracks change is obviously for the 1/1/1 strategy from the terrans. It's a joke how many times Terran uses that when they're up 1 game in a Bo3 or if its a Bo1.
Don't think it affects 1-1-1 that much. Now it ensures that a 11/11 2 rax in TvZ can be crushed on Blizzard maps so long as the Zerg makes at least 6 lings.
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On September 10 2011 01:38 Treble557 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:22 RedDragon571 wrote:
No more np for mothership.... thats going to be retarded yes, retarded.... like you? your saying an infestor SHOULD take out a 400/400 unit? your saying it SHOULD make ALL capital ships obsolete? Thank god you don't work on the balance team....... You've obviously never dealt with mothorships as Z. Z anti air is downright awful. hyrdas, build em.......... He's just trying to troll you into making hydras so his colossus that are under the mothership can roflstomp you 2x faster then before.
if I have colossi and a mothership out at the same time you lost the game long before then.....
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On September 10 2011 01:39 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:35 Zhou wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand the Neural Parasite nerf. I don't think it needed to happen this way (though I always thought it was weird if a single infestor could take over a whole mothership)
It seems like it won't have many uses at all now, beyond a few people already doing what they could with it. It's two other abilities are significantly more efficient. I think a better fix would have been to lessen the time the unit is NP'd for based on its size.
I think Blizzard's idea here though was to make infestors less important, and try to give Ultralisks a more important role. But I don't know how big the ultralisk buff will actually take place of how efficient infestors were.
For the seeker missile, I'm kind of excited about that. Something I think should have happened a while ago. Not particularly just as it helps the raven, but because it needed something more to do than chase away units in a fight. (Though if you think about it, chasing away a group of units is kind of a neato way to zone out units)
Terran generally got this nerf because of the blue flame strategy people have been using. Not sure why the barracks timing is significant, but if someone would like to explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Not sure how I feel about the protoss changes. While I think a lot of them are nice, I'm not sure how much it will work together. The immortal one is nice since they won't hur-dur into marines that often. Mothership is okay, I don't see it being used to often, as they said they didn't expect people to use it in competitive play. I'll assume they changed it for casual players to suddenly use again. Blink Change I think I am okay with. And warp prism I'm happy for, but as Protoss player I'm not sure how often we'll be seeing it. Maybe it'll be merging special tacktic(s!), but the protoss with its already easy to use warpgate mechanic doesn't really need it too much.
I guess we'll see how that works.
Bolded. The barracks change is obviously for the 1/1/1 strategy from the terrans. It's a joke how many times Terran uses that when they're up 1 game in a Bo3 or if its a Bo1.
Really? I feel like it barely effects 1-1-1. I thought it was more for the 11/11 rax TvZ.
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Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. (new)
WHOAWHOAWHOA
This was kinda the entire point of NP, why would they remove it?
Now you can't NP Thors/collosi/archons/ultras, what is it's use?
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On September 10 2011 01:40 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:37 Fig wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 Lomak wrote:
Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike. Well at least they didn't take it away completely. They actually REMOVED both KA and void ray speed. So you can't say they are picking on zergs more than toss in that regard. I do agree that now it is a very niche spell, and they should probably make it so infestors start with neural now, or allow them to do it while burrowed. But saying that the nerfs have been focused mostly on zerg is just not true. Toss has also lost fun and interesting tactics like fazing and archon toilet, they even nerfed voidrays so charging them is barely worth it now. What I do not like is Blizzard taking away micro opportunities, and they have done that to toss far more than the other races. Oh they didnt take it away? Why don't you re-read this thread and see how useless the spell is going to be, ITS NOT THE SAME SPELL. Storm was unchanged by the KA nerf. The stupidity of comparing the two actually makes me see red. I'm flipping table's man. There is no logical way to compare 'completely changing the functionality of a spell' to 'takes a few seconds longer to get enough energy to cast the same spell'. IF they removed Pathogen glands THEN you could compare it to a KA nerf and it would actually fucking make sense.
A GUY SAID A THING AND I AM MAD.
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I really don't like the infestor NP change that was just added. What is DB's intended counter to a archon/zealot/stalker/colossi army? NP is great to counter the massive units that protoss has (and thors).
Really *really* don't like that NP change
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On September 10 2011 01:28 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:26 TimeSpiral wrote:
I think we've all felt in our gut that NP stealing massive units was overkill. This is such a logical change to the Infestor I almost don't even believe it. Then give the races a good response to it to add more depth to the game, don't take away... give. The game is slowly becoming more and more two dimensional because people don't want to have to respond to powerplays, they want them to be removed.
The problem with that argument is that it's an extreme. I imagine when Blizzard created the game they had to decide which upgrades to leave in, what units to cut and such, but according to you they should have kept all of those. You can't just make races more powerful by giving them ever more tools to use against each other.
That's not to say this is by default a good change, but it's at least debatable, not intrinsically bad.
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I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong.
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On September 10 2011 01:40 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:37 Fig wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 Lomak wrote:
Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike. Well at least they didn't take it away completely. They actually REMOVED both KA and void ray speed. So you can't say they are picking on zergs more than toss in that regard. I do agree that now it is a very niche spell, and they should probably make it so infestors start with neural now, or allow them to do it while burrowed. But saying that the nerfs have been focused mostly on zerg is just not true. Toss has also lost fun and interesting tactics like fazing and archon toilet, they even nerfed voidrays so charging them is barely worth it now. What I do not like is Blizzard taking away micro opportunities, and they have done that to toss far more than the other races. Oh they didnt take it away? Why don't you re-read this thread and see how useless the spell is going to be, ITS NOT THE SAME SPELL. Storm was unchanged by the KA nerf. The stupidity of comparing the two actually makes me see red. I'm flipping table's man. There is no logical way to compare 'completely changing the functionality of a spell' to 'takes a few seconds longer to get enough energy to cast the same spell'. IF they removed Pathogen glands THEN you could compare it to a KA nerf and it would actually fucking make sense.
"a few seconds"
this is so ignorant its not funny. storm was changed MASSIVELY when you take into account WG being the backbone of toss and no more warp in storms.
You can no longer build HT right after storm upgrade finishes. You now must let them temporarily take up useless resources and supply while maintaining enough units to stay alive in the mean time. The energy upgrade change was huge... Don't talk about things you know nothing about...
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I haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's an idea: what if you needed 2 infestors to NP a massive unit? Would make a logical sort of sense as a massive unit may need more to overpower it. It would make it harder to take them over/require that you need more infestors to do so, and easier to lose control of them. This would mean you can't so quickly grab 6 collosi and crush a lategame toss army. But it would still make it possible to use NP how it was intended, to take out the big beefy units.
Depending on how this changed balance you could either make it so that if a massive unit only has 1 infestor NPing it, it remains under the control of its owner, or it goes catatonic and neither side can use it.
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On September 10 2011 01:39 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:35 Zhou wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand the Neural Parasite nerf. I don't think it needed to happen this way (though I always thought it was weird if a single infestor could take over a whole mothership)
It seems like it won't have many uses at all now, beyond a few people already doing what they could with it. It's two other abilities are significantly more efficient. I think a better fix would have been to lessen the time the unit is NP'd for based on its size.
I think Blizzard's idea here though was to make infestors less important, and try to give Ultralisks a more important role. But I don't know how big the ultralisk buff will actually take place of how efficient infestors were.
For the seeker missile, I'm kind of excited about that. Something I think should have happened a while ago. Not particularly just as it helps the raven, but because it needed something more to do than chase away units in a fight. (Though if you think about it, chasing away a group of units is kind of a neato way to zone out units)
Terran generally got this nerf because of the blue flame strategy people have been using. Not sure why the barracks timing is significant, but if someone would like to explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Not sure how I feel about the protoss changes. While I think a lot of them are nice, I'm not sure how much it will work together. The immortal one is nice since they won't hur-dur into marines that often. Mothership is okay, I don't see it being used to often, as they said they didn't expect people to use it in competitive play. I'll assume they changed it for casual players to suddenly use again. Blink Change I think I am okay with. And warp prism I'm happy for, but as Protoss player I'm not sure how often we'll be seeing it. Maybe it'll be merging special tacktic(s!), but the protoss with its already easy to use warpgate mechanic doesn't really need it too much.
I guess we'll see how that works.
Bolded. The barracks change is obviously for the 1/1/1 strategy from the terrans. It's a joke how many times Terran uses that when they're up 1 game in a Bo3 or if its a Bo1.
Actually it's obviously for the 11/11 rax bunker rush. 3 real life seconds off for the 1/1/1 timing will do absolutely nothing. 3 seconds on a really fast bunker rush might.
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On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong.
what do u use to scout? and where do u get all this gas for 10 hts
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:39 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:36 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:33 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg. they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP). Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses. Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves.... dont rule warp prisms out. dropping some zealots in a mineral line or some dts..so strong. and if the prism has speed with their new shield buff? its gonna be SO strong, guarantee it. you have the most mobile unit construction in the game..i feel like its not exploited nearly enough. it WILL be more viable once patch hits... Toss units synergize very well and you need to keep them together (thus the death ball) or you simply start to trade VERY cost inefficiently with the other races... Still dts, WP speed are ALL late game. If you haven't caused economic damage prior to that the zerg is on 5 base and you lost the game 10 minutes ago...........
warp prism speed is definitely late game when we have units to chase it down..but a quick WP is pretty sick..check out mini-gun's play!
also, getting to DTs early opens up a lot of things. you can DT expand, harass the economy and control the map and deny expansions for a while. the best part about the DT expand is you have archons and high templar available relatively easily afterwards.
im of the opinion (read, PERSONAL opinion) that protoss players are being very stubborn and are refusing to do anything other than death ball it up while the other races are learning to beat this.
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On September 10 2011 01:46 sOda~ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong. what do u use to scout?
Protoss players using Hallucinated Phoenix are very smart & intelligent players in my opinion... They don't go "BLIND 6 gates", "BLIND fast Colossi " etc... like so many Protoss players do.......
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On September 10 2011 01:45 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:40 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 01:37 Fig wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 Lomak wrote:
Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike. Well at least they didn't take it away completely. They actually REMOVED both KA and void ray speed. So you can't say they are picking on zergs more than toss in that regard. I do agree that now it is a very niche spell, and they should probably make it so infestors start with neural now, or allow them to do it while burrowed. But saying that the nerfs have been focused mostly on zerg is just not true. Toss has also lost fun and interesting tactics like fazing and archon toilet, they even nerfed voidrays so charging them is barely worth it now. What I do not like is Blizzard taking away micro opportunities, and they have done that to toss far more than the other races. Oh they didnt take it away? Why don't you re-read this thread and see how useless the spell is going to be, ITS NOT THE SAME SPELL. Storm was unchanged by the KA nerf. The stupidity of comparing the two actually makes me see red. I'm flipping table's man. There is no logical way to compare 'completely changing the functionality of a spell' to 'takes a few seconds longer to get enough energy to cast the same spell'. IF they removed Pathogen glands THEN you could compare it to a KA nerf and it would actually fucking make sense. "a few seconds" this is so ignorant its not funny. storm was changed MASSIVELY when you take into account WG being the backbone of toss and no more warp in storms. You can no longer build HT right after storm upgrade finishes. You now must let them temporarily take up useless resources and supply while maintaining enough units to stay alive in the mean time. The energy upgrade change was huge... Don't talk about things you know nothing about...
Again, he said the Spell itself never got changed and did it? no it didn't.
They simply made so you couldn't get it as fast as might have have wanted so delayed it.
It is was a hard nerf but did it changed the storm spell? NO
Here however they not just delayed an option, they simply REMOVED it.
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On September 10 2011 01:48 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:46 sOda~ wrote:On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong. what do u use to scout? Protoss players using Hallucinated Phoenix are very smart & intelligent players in my opinion... They don't go "BLIND 6 gates", "BLIND fast Colossi " etc... like so many Protoss players do.......
you get hallucinate pretty late if you ffe, and then, at least in my experiance, your timings become alot less scary.
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The change on the neural is stupid, and i am protoss... I think that it was made for that, to steal big units, now it will be useless lulz
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EPT
