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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 01:32 BlindSight754 wrote:
Want too keep NP? How about we make it so that it takes the unit out of the battle instead of giving the zerg control of the unit. I think that not only do you lose the unit from your army but that it now deals damage to your army is overkill. NP ruins any sort of positioning. Suddenly you're getting huge splash from your collosi AND if you reposition away from it you risk losing the unit because you're no longer protecting it? Somethings got to change.
As long as we completely ruin the spell it's a good change right?
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On September 10 2011 01:33 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 TangYiChen wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. You don't need colossi to deal with ling infestor. When playing protoss fighting a ling infestor build, I just went HT with storm and stalkers. Storm MELTS zerglings and you just throw a few feedbacks on the infestors. You can honestly just go with solely gateway units against ling infestor. errr.... the problem with that is that, as a zerg, seeing any inkling of templar tech makes you go for roaches... which the zerg can and WILL get en masse before the Protoss has the critmass storm + 4 ht's that can make a zerg cringe. Even then, storm is subpar vs roaches. Ling infestor is strong until Protoss gets splash, then roach infestor becomes the by and by vogue, then broodlord infestor... which is what Blizzard is ultimately trying to nerf anyways...
^this
Zerg has the most powerful tech switching in the game and after trading armies can simply switch over to pure roach and roll you EZ....
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As a toss player, I actually think neural parasite should stay for massive units. First of all, this is really onlt a change for PvZ and for colossus and mothership specifically.
It should stay because now all we are going to see in PvZ is the toss building up for a colossus-mothership deathball and completely roll over the zerg once they get to 200. It's going to make for some boring late PvZ games.
I guess I just really hate the 8+ colossus play. It's just sooooo boring and anti-hype
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All i hear from non zerg players is how they think zerg should be played... Funny how the players that dont play the race think they should be able to put zerg into their little box of how to be played, so they can just continue their standard build that kill all; but ok.... Lets go with the how "Zerg should be played idea", if zerg unit are supposed to be weaker but swarm smaller armies and overwhelm them with numbers, then easy fix for Zerg... Make Zerg supply count cap at 250 or 300...
With the Cap being the same when you maxed the thought that Zerg can still overwhelm you with a larger amount is just a pipe dream...
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I think the NP change is more for the TvZ machup then it is the ZvP.
In ZvP though you can still grab immortals like idra did to MC at MLG.
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On September 10 2011 01:29 RedDragon571 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:22 RedDragon571 wrote:
No more np for mothership.... thats going to be retarded yes, retarded.... like you? your saying an infestor SHOULD take out a 400/400 unit? your saying it SHOULD make ALL capital ships obsolete? Thank god you don't work on the balance team....... You've obviously never dealt with mothorships as Z. Z anti air is downright awful.
hyrdas, build em..........
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Zerg still has one of the most powerful skills in the game, they should just remove neural all together now though... No zerg is going to research it anymore now. But it was kind of lame that you could neural a mothership or archons and colossus, units you need in order to take out mass infested terrans and zerglings. To keep the infestor away from fungaling too. Still I believe the Infestor's strongest ability is Infested Terrans.
On September 10 2011 01:35 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:22 RedDragon571 wrote:
No more np for mothership.... thats going to be retarded yes, retarded.... like you? your saying an infestor SHOULD take out a 400/400 unit? your saying it SHOULD make ALL capital ships obsolete? Thank god you don't work on the balance team....... You've obviously never dealt with mothorships as Z. Z anti air is downright awful. hyrdas, build em..........
Corruptors deals extra damage to massive... you're gonna build them anyways for broodlords.... don't be dumb.
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I'm not really sure I understand the Neural Parasite nerf. I don't think it needed to happen this way (though I always thought it was weird if a single infestor could take over a whole mothership)
It seems like it won't have many uses at all now, beyond a few people already doing what they could with it. It's two other abilities are significantly more efficient. I think a better fix would have been to lessen the time the unit is NP'd for based on its size.
I think Blizzard's idea here though was to make infestors less important, and try to give Ultralisks a more important role. But I don't know how big the ultralisk buff will actually take place of how efficient infestors were.
For the seeker missile, I'm kind of excited about that. Something I think should have happened a while ago. Not particularly just as it helps the raven, but because it needed something more to do than chase away units in a fight. (Though if you think about it, chasing away a group of units is kind of a neato way to zone out units)
Terran generally got this nerf because of the blue flame strategy people have been using. Not sure why the barracks timing is significant, but if someone would like to explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Not sure how I feel about the protoss changes. While I think a lot of them are nice, I'm not sure how much it will work together. The immortal one is nice since they won't hur-dur into marines that often. Mothership is okay, I don't see it being used to often, as they said they didn't expect people to use it in competitive play. I'll assume they changed it for casual players to suddenly use again. Blink Change I think I am okay with. And warp prism I'm happy for, but as Protoss player I'm not sure how often we'll be seeing it. Maybe it'll be merging special tacktic(s!), but the protoss with its already easy to use warpgate mechanic doesn't really need it too much.
I guess we'll see how that works.
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I am a protoss player, and fully support that protoss is underpowered right now
I dont think you should be able to NP a mothership (for what that is worth)
I think NP should be able to affect other massives (perhaps just for 25%-40% less time than other units, or how about decrease the range of NP for massive?)
I think that a different approach to balance should be explored
How about just making fungal a slow effect instead of a stun effect. They we can micro away from the NP and it is a non-issue?
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I just don't understand why anyone would even research NP after this. Tanks or VRs?
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SoCal8932 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:33 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg. they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP). Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses. Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves....
dont rule warp prisms out. dropping some zealots in a mineral line or some dts..so strong. and if the prism has speed with their new shield buff? its gonna be SO strong, guarantee it.
you have the most mobile unit construction in the game..i feel like its not exploited nearly enough.
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Colossus pretty much suck a fat one against ultras. Corruptors wont be the only option vs. deathball toss and the new ultra build time will allow people to actually get them. Zergs want ultralisk to be an i-win button because broodlords can sometimes feel that way. Ultras are seldom an iwin button but with a 55 second build time they are definitely an option to push protoss away from a colossus-centric deathball. I know ultras are expensive, but with lings as a mineral dump I dont see the problem getting 4-5 ultra, 8-10 infestor and the rest of your food in lings. Its a solid composition and reinforceable with the new ultra build time. I would imagine that bad zergs would still run all their lings into the colossus fire instead of controlling their army, but thats why i call them bad to begin with. Fungals to quickly chew through the zealots/stalkers, the ultras will still stand because colossus do jack shit to them, lings are great vs. the proper ultra response of immortal (since void rays lose to infestor already).
All this change does is opens up two lategame options against zerg, one for each race... its also a slight buff to mothership I suppose. It comes at the cost of zerg just being able to mass infestor against literally everything... which was stupid to begin.. it was never a bad idea to go infestor... now you might want to think twice because a meching terran wont just flat out auto-lose and a protoss wont avoid colossus altogether because its countered by a spell you can cast by any one of your 12-15 infestors. Im really so glad that these mindless mass infestor builds are taking a hit as it removed the dynamism of the matchups.
Zealot/archon sucks if you control your mass roach army and fight in concaves... dont really understand why people are afraid of this composition as zerg at all... I even read some guy post that he doesn't feel zerg should have to react to the protoss army composition. Zerg has the ability to react quickly.. its a strength to do so, not a weakness... be happy that you can make responses to what you see because often T and P cannot. A transition to reactored vikings isnt as fast as you would think and ANY transition from toss is very cumbersome as well. (low masters T and high masters P account).
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On September 10 2011 01:28 askTeivospy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:25 Tatari wrote:
I honestly don't get why some Protosses are feeling happy about this... And I play Protoss myself.
You don't even need Templar to fend off Neural Parasite. If the Protoss has good vision over the Zerg army with obs/towers, they can march in when the Zerg is moving out, pre-emptively blink a handful of Stalkers to pick off Infestors while a Chargelot/Archon/Stalker army meatshields a group of Colossi...
Neural Parasite rushes are annoying, but they're not entirely impossible to hold off.
It's either back to Roach/Hydra/Corruptor or a shift to Muta/Ling... lol blink into a zerg army?
its all good, stalkers are so cheap and you can mass them faster then roaches...
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On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote:
/snip
Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. (new)
/snip
Wow, this really promotes Thor/Hellion/Marine
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On September 10 2011 01:29 Lomak wrote:
Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike.
Well at least they didn't take it away completely. They actually REMOVED both KA and void ray speed. So you can't say they are picking on zergs more than toss in that regard.
I do agree that now it is a very niche spell, and they should probably make it so infestors start with neural now, or allow them to do it while burrowed. But saying that the nerfs have been focused mostly on zerg is just not true. Toss has also lost fun and interesting tactics like fazing and archon toilet, they even nerfed voidrays so charging them is barely worth it now. What I do not like is Blizzard taking away micro opportunities, and they have done that to toss far more than the other races.
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On September 10 2011 01:35 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:22 RedDragon571 wrote:
No more np for mothership.... thats going to be retarded yes, retarded.... like you? your saying an infestor SHOULD take out a 400/400 unit? your saying it SHOULD make ALL capital ships obsolete? Thank god you don't work on the balance team....... You've obviously never dealt with mothorships as Z. Z anti air is downright awful. hyrdas, build em..........
He's just trying to troll you into making hydras so his colossus that are under the mothership can roflstomp you 2x faster then before.
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On September 10 2011 01:35 Zhou wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand the Neural Parasite nerf. I don't think it needed to happen this way (though I always thought it was weird if a single infestor could take over a whole mothership)
It seems like it won't have many uses at all now, beyond a few people already doing what they could with it. It's two other abilities are significantly more efficient. I think a better fix would have been to lessen the time the unit is NP'd for based on its size.
I think Blizzard's idea here though was to make infestors less important, and try to give Ultralisks a more important role. But I don't know how big the ultralisk buff will actually take place of how efficient infestors were.
For the seeker missile, I'm kind of excited about that. Something I think should have happened a while ago. Not particularly just as it helps the raven, but because it needed something more to do than chase away units in a fight. (Though if you think about it, chasing away a group of units is kind of a neato way to zone out units)
Terran generally got this nerf because of the blue flame strategy people have been using. Not sure why the barracks timing is significant, but if someone would like to explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Not sure how I feel about the protoss changes. While I think a lot of them are nice, I'm not sure how much it will work together. The immortal one is nice since they won't hur-dur into marines that often. Mothership is okay, I don't see it being used to often, as they said they didn't expect people to use it in competitive play. I'll assume they changed it for casual players to suddenly use again. Blink Change I think I am okay with. And warp prism I'm happy for, but as Protoss player I'm not sure how often we'll be seeing it. Maybe it'll be merging special tacktic(s!), but the protoss with its already easy to use warpgate mechanic doesn't really need it too much.
I guess we'll see how that works.
Bolded. The barracks change is obviously for the 1/1/1 strategy from the terrans. It's a joke how many times Terran uses that when they're up 1 game in a Bo3 or if its a Bo1.
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SoCal8932 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:37 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:28 askTeivospy wrote:On September 10 2011 01:25 Tatari wrote:
I honestly don't get why some Protosses are feeling happy about this... And I play Protoss myself.
You don't even need Templar to fend off Neural Parasite. If the Protoss has good vision over the Zerg army with obs/towers, they can march in when the Zerg is moving out, pre-emptively blink a handful of Stalkers to pick off Infestors while a Chargelot/Archon/Stalker army meatshields a group of Colossi...
Neural Parasite rushes are annoying, but they're not entirely impossible to hold off.
It's either back to Roach/Hydra/Corruptor or a shift to Muta/Ling... lol blink into a zerg army? its all good, stalkers are so cheap and you can mass them faster then roaches...
lol as a zerg player i do not endorse this statement XD
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On September 10 2011 01:36 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:33 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg. they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP). Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses. Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves.... dont rule warp prisms out. dropping some zealots in a mineral line or some dts..so strong. and if the prism has speed with their new shield buff? its gonna be SO strong, guarantee it. you have the most mobile unit construction in the game..i feel like its not exploited nearly enough.
it WILL be more viable once patch hits... Toss units synergize very well and you need to keep them together (thus the death ball) or you simply start to trade VERY cost inefficiently with the other races...
Still dts, WP speed are ALL late game. If you haven't caused economic damage prior to that the zerg is on 5 base and you lost the game 10 minutes ago...........
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On September 10 2011 01:39 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:37 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:28 askTeivospy wrote:On September 10 2011 01:25 Tatari wrote:
I honestly don't get why some Protosses are feeling happy about this... And I play Protoss myself.
You don't even need Templar to fend off Neural Parasite. If the Protoss has good vision over the Zerg army with obs/towers, they can march in when the Zerg is moving out, pre-emptively blink a handful of Stalkers to pick off Infestors while a Chargelot/Archon/Stalker army meatshields a group of Colossi...
Neural Parasite rushes are annoying, but they're not entirely impossible to hold off.
It's either back to Roach/Hydra/Corruptor or a shift to Muta/Ling... lol blink into a zerg army? its all good, stalkers are so cheap and you can mass them faster then roaches... lol as a zerg player i do not endorse this statement XD
was being sarcastic =D
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