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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Interesting. The NA battle.net patch notes still has the change listed. If anything, this is just proof how nothing on the PTR is set in stone.
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SoCal8907 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:50 sOda~ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:48 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 10 2011 01:46 sOda~ wrote:On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong. what do u use to scout? Protoss players using Hallucinated Phoenix are very smart & intelligent players in my opinion... They don't go "BLIND 6 gates", "BLIND fast Colossi " etc... like so many Protoss players do....... you get hallucinate pretty late if you ffe, and then, at least in my experiance, your timings become alot less scary.
in general, you get scouting abilities pretty late if you do a FFE. personally i don't like the idea of FFE'ing because you allow the zerg to do whatever they want and you cant really scout. unless you have a sick timing to follow it up, imo, you shouldnt FFE.
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It is just a patch. Blizzard is just testing out ideas in the public test realm. The NP change will not go live once they realize what effect it has on ZvP.
I believe they think that ultralisks will replace infestors late game, but I don't think ultralisks are powerful enough to really replace infestors completely.
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On September 10 2011 01:43 CidO wrote:
I really don't like the infestor NP change that was just added. What is DB's intended counter to a archon/zealot/stalker/colossi army?
I have had great success with Ultra / Bling / Ling
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On September 10 2011 01:47 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:39 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:36 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:33 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg. they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP). Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses. Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves.... dont rule warp prisms out. dropping some zealots in a mineral line or some dts..so strong. and if the prism has speed with their new shield buff? its gonna be SO strong, guarantee it. you have the most mobile unit construction in the game..i feel like its not exploited nearly enough. it WILL be more viable once patch hits... Toss units synergize very well and you need to keep them together (thus the death ball) or you simply start to trade VERY cost inefficiently with the other races... Still dts, WP speed are ALL late game. If you haven't caused economic damage prior to that the zerg is on 5 base and you lost the game 10 minutes ago........... warp prism speed is definitely late game when we have units to chase it down..but a quick WP is pretty sick..check out mini-gun's play! also, getting to DTs early opens up a lot of things. you can DT expand, harass the economy and control the map and deny expansions for a while. the best part about the DT expand is you have archons and high templar available relatively easily afterwards. im of the opinion (read, PERSONAL opinion) that protoss players are being very stubborn and are refusing to do anything other than death ball it up while the other races are learning to beat this.
The deathball (turtle to 200 A-move) has been fairly dead for months other then people below high masters which is irrelevant.
DT expand is not good at all. A decent zerg will do unit counts and know what is up AND the evo counters BOTH dt and stargate which are the best options toss has for aggression while trying not to fall behind .
Too many WG nerfs have made WG timings almost all shit so there is not much else to pressure with...
I agree WP is underused BUT you statement on DTs "you can DT expand, harass the economy and control the map and deny expansions for a while" shows how optimistic you are about the situation . Against a competent opponent DTs do not get away with much and they are a GIMMICK!!! If they were great they we be used more at higher lvl play which when we see them its either chees/allin or late game DTs which ARE really good.
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On September 10 2011 01:53 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:50 sOda~ wrote:On September 10 2011 01:48 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 10 2011 01:46 sOda~ wrote:On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong. what do u use to scout? Protoss players using Hallucinated Phoenix are very smart & intelligent players in my opinion... They don't go "BLIND 6 gates", "BLIND fast Colossi " etc... like so many Protoss players do....... you get hallucinate pretty late if you ffe, and then, at least in my experiance, your timings become alot less scary. in general, you get scouting abilities pretty late if you do a FFE. personally i don't like the idea of FFE'ing because you allow the zerg to do whatever they want and you cant really scout. unless you have a sick timing to follow it up, imo, you shouldnt FFE.
i guess more or less every high level protoss is doing something wrong then. Also how can u have a sick timing when u cant scout what they're doing. What is strong against roaches is often a joke against ling infestor.
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I blame the NP nerf on the lack of a medic type caster (READ RESTORATION) in the other races arsenal =P
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The NP change is going the wrong way IMO. I play as terran and as long as you REACT to infestors by getting ghosts NP really isn't a problem. 2x Snipe or 1 EMP is insanely good vs infestors especially with cloak. I do feel that Fungal needed a nerf but NP really wasn't hurting anyone.
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Blizzard yay! Fixed 2 very important issues with zerg.
1. Broodlords are the best end-game unit by far. This change makes is finally possible for stalkers to kill them 
2. Infestors can no longer target my collosus which was probably the most ridiculous thing in the world when massed. Infestors are still the best spell casters in the game, but now they don't auto-counter the entire protoss army. Still, they are a little too strong against gateway units, but i guess I can make collosus late game now to counter it.
This is turning out to be the best patch and also the most anti-destiny patch ever.
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On September 10 2011 01:54 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:47 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:39 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:36 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:33 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close.
Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units.
Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach.
Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design.
By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg.
My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras....
Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg. they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP). Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses. Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves.... dont rule warp prisms out. dropping some zealots in a mineral line or some dts..so strong. and if the prism has speed with their new shield buff? its gonna be SO strong, guarantee it. you have the most mobile unit construction in the game..i feel like its not exploited nearly enough. it WILL be more viable once patch hits... Toss units synergize very well and you need to keep them together (thus the death ball) or you simply start to trade VERY cost inefficiently with the other races... Still dts, WP speed are ALL late game. If you haven't caused economic damage prior to that the zerg is on 5 base and you lost the game 10 minutes ago........... warp prism speed is definitely late game when we have units to chase it down..but a quick WP is pretty sick..check out mini-gun's play! also, getting to DTs early opens up a lot of things. you can DT expand, harass the economy and control the map and deny expansions for a while. the best part about the DT expand is you have archons and high templar available relatively easily afterwards. im of the opinion (read, PERSONAL opinion) that protoss players are being very stubborn and are refusing to do anything other than death ball it up while the other races are learning to beat this.
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I play Terran and i think that the NP not affecting massive is a little stupid. I say that because when they made Archons massive, we couldnt kite them anymore with rauds and now the archon has free movment against zerg. A little stupid if you ask me. Now zerg has to stutter step like a Terran to get away from an Archon?
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On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong.
First of all HTs consume a lot of gas. In an army which HAS to consist of sentries and stalkers adding 1 HT per infestor is unlikely. The benefit to zerg is that they're always one base up on the protoss which means +2 more geysers. Also with a swarm like army there is little to no way to get your HTs in range of the infestors. The infestors job is to fungal the army so that the zerg army can surround it, then to further fungal. If the protoss army can not continue to push through the zerg army the HTs can not safely reach the infestors to feedback them. One way around this is HT drops but with infestors being able to neural the warp prism or fungal it to death, it is very hard to get in range. Also it's very easy to keep a pack of 12 lings next to the warp prism so that the HTs instantly die as they unload.
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SoCal8907 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:54 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:47 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:39 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:36 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:33 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close.
Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units.
Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach.
Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design.
By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg.
My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras....
Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg. they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP). Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses. Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves.... dont rule warp prisms out. dropping some zealots in a mineral line or some dts..so strong. and if the prism has speed with their new shield buff? its gonna be SO strong, guarantee it. you have the most mobile unit construction in the game..i feel like its not exploited nearly enough. it WILL be more viable once patch hits... Toss units synergize very well and you need to keep them together (thus the death ball) or you simply start to trade VERY cost inefficiently with the other races... Still dts, WP speed are ALL late game. If you haven't caused economic damage prior to that the zerg is on 5 base and you lost the game 10 minutes ago........... warp prism speed is definitely late game when we have units to chase it down..but a quick WP is pretty sick..check out mini-gun's play! also, getting to DTs early opens up a lot of things. you can DT expand, harass the economy and control the map and deny expansions for a while. the best part about the DT expand is you have archons and high templar available relatively easily afterwards. im of the opinion (read, PERSONAL opinion) that protoss players are being very stubborn and are refusing to do anything other than death ball it up while the other races are learning to beat this. The deathball (turtle to 200 A-move) has been fairly dead for month accept for people below high masters. DT expand is not good at all. A decent zerg will do unit counts and know what is up AND the evo counters BOTH dt and stargate which are the best options toss has for aggression while trying not to fall behind . Too many WG nerfs have made WG timings almost all shit so there is not much else to pressure with... I agree WP is underused BUT you statement on DTs "you can DT expand, harass the economy and control the map and deny expansions for a while" shows how optimistic you are about the situation . Against a competent opponent DTs do not get away with much and they are a GIMMICK!!! If they were great they we be used more at higher lvl play which when we see them its either chees/allin or late game DTs which ARE really good.
i respectfully disagree with this last part. as a "competent" zerg player i can speak for how annoying DTs are when protoss players use them well.
i believe it was a wolf cast where he was discussing just this - if you keep your DTs alive and you know how to use them to control the map, you will find great success. they punish greedy players and they also prevent me from being able to do anything to you while i get my lair up and you get your natural up and running.
using a DT to control xel'naga towers and deny vision/scouting is another underrated use.
there are a lot of options for protoss and i dont think nerfing the other races because protoss aren't fully exploring their race is a smart decision for game balance.
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On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong.
What crazy magic world are you living in where Protoss can just make 8 to 10 HTs and sit around waiting for them all to get 200 mana? Don't act like feedbacking infestors just happens and it's so easy it happens every time.
Seriously, it's like people thing that an infestor dies every time an ht is warped in...
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SoCal8907 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:54 sOda~ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:53 immortlone wrote:On September 10 2011 01:50 sOda~ wrote:On September 10 2011 01:48 Shade_CsT wrote:On September 10 2011 01:46 sOda~ wrote:On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong. what do u use to scout? Protoss players using Hallucinated Phoenix are very smart & intelligent players in my opinion... They don't go "BLIND 6 gates", "BLIND fast Colossi " etc... like so many Protoss players do....... you get hallucinate pretty late if you ffe, and then, at least in my experiance, your timings become alot less scary. in general, you get scouting abilities pretty late if you do a FFE. personally i don't like the idea of FFE'ing because you allow the zerg to do whatever they want and you cant really scout. unless you have a sick timing to follow it up, imo, you shouldnt FFE. i guess more or less every high level protoss is doing something wrong then. Also how can u have a sick timing when u cant scout what they're doing. What is strong against roaches is often a joke against ling infestor.
i guess thats my point in a nutshell lol
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Neural parasite will never be researched ever again at a competitive level. Whats to use it on now? Immortals and seige tanks? NP vs seige tanks isnt very practical due to range (and zerg has other ways of dealing with seige tanks more efficiently), and what protoss is going to be going immortal heavy when they can safely return to their heavy stalker/collosuss/mothership play that was dominating zergs a few months ago.
As a zerg, I would much rather them remove pathogen glands than this nerf... although thats primarily because the NP nerf is many times worse than the removal of pathogen glands.This nerf is the equivalent to removing NP from the game.
I dont think the NP nerf is really addressing the issues with infestors either. Its infested terrans that need a change, and maybe damage on fungal, but definatly not NP.
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On September 10 2011 01:54 envisioN . wrote:
The NP change is going the wrong way IMO. I play as terran and as long as you REACT to infestors by getting ghosts NP really isn't a problem. 2x Snipe or 1 EMP is insanely good vs infestors especially with cloak. I do feel that Fungal needed a nerf but NP really wasn't hurting anyone.
Says the terran.. Try being protoss and gettign all ur expensive splash units neuraled :/
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SoCal8907 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:44 freewareplayer wrote:
I honestly dont get how infestor can be a problem.
Scout Zerg going "mass infestor", make 1 Ht for each infestor ( which is already more than you would actually need to counter them, excessive example)
feedback all ( minimap targeting FTW, easy much?) you just already killed all infestors, and each templar has enough energy left for 2 ( 2?) storms, and you can warp archons after that.
Thats insanely cost effectice no? Why do protoss refuse to adapt after scouting?
Altho yes, right now fungal is a bit too strong. What crazy magic world are you living in where Protoss can just make 8 to 10 HTs and sit around waiting for them all to get 200 mana? Don't act like feedbacking infestors just happens and it's so easy it happens every time. Seriously, it's like people thing that an infestor dies every time an ht is warped in...
if they have enough energy for a neural, thats actually true LOL.
but to be fair, HTs are cheaper than infestors, feedback costs less than fungal or neural, and feedback does damage to the infestor on top of making it useless.
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On September 10 2011 01:42 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:40 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 01:37 Fig wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 Lomak wrote:
Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike. Well at least they didn't take it away completely. They actually REMOVED both KA and void ray speed. So you can't say they are picking on zergs more than toss in that regard. I do agree that now it is a very niche spell, and they should probably make it so infestors start with neural now, or allow them to do it while burrowed. But saying that the nerfs have been focused mostly on zerg is just not true. Toss has also lost fun and interesting tactics like fazing and archon toilet, they even nerfed voidrays so charging them is barely worth it now. What I do not like is Blizzard taking away micro opportunities, and they have done that to toss far more than the other races. Oh they didnt take it away? Why don't you re-read this thread and see how useless the spell is going to be, ITS NOT THE SAME SPELL. Storm was unchanged by the KA nerf. The stupidity of comparing the two actually makes me see red. I'm flipping table's man. There is no logical way to compare 'completely changing the functionality of a spell' to 'takes a few seconds longer to get enough energy to cast the same spell'. IF they removed Pathogen glands THEN you could compare it to a KA nerf and it would actually fucking make sense. A GUY SAID A THING AND I AM MAD.
haahaha epic response mate
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On September 10 2011 01:35 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 RedDragon571 wrote:On September 10 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:22 RedDragon571 wrote:
No more np for mothership.... thats going to be retarded yes, retarded.... like you? your saying an infestor SHOULD take out a 400/400 unit? your saying it SHOULD make ALL capital ships obsolete? Thank god you don't work on the balance team....... You've obviously never dealt with mothorships as Z. Z anti air is downright awful. hyrdas, build em..........
That works until they have collosi or storm.
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EPT
