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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 01:24 FreedonNadd wrote:
ZvZ will become really interesting without NP on Ultras and Broodlords.
What? You could never use NP on Ultras, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone even try to use NP on a broodlord; if they even got one set of broodlings off they would just munch away at the infestor.
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On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems.
Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose?
yea, that is obviously OP.
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I think we've all felt in our gut that NP stealing massive units was overkill. This is such a logical change to the Infestor I almost don't even believe it.
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On September 10 2011 01:25 Tatari wrote:
I honestly don't get why some Protosses are feeling happy about this... And I play Protoss myself.
You don't even need Templar to fend off Neural Parasite. If the Protoss has good vision over the Zerg army with obs/towers, they can march in when the Zerg is moving out, pre-emptively blink a handful of Stalkers to pick off Infestors while a Chargelot/Archon/Stalker army meatshields a group of Colossi...
Neural Parasite rushes are annoying, but they're not entirely impossible to hold off.
It's either back to Roach/Hydra/Corruptor or a shift to Muta/Ling...
lol blink into a zerg army?
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On September 10 2011 01:26 TimeSpiral wrote:
I think we've all felt in our gut that NP stealing massive units was overkill. This is such a logical change to the Infestor I almost don't even believe it.
Then give the races a good response to it to add more depth to the game, don't take away... give.
The game is slowly becoming more and more two dimensional because people don't want to have to respond to powerplays, they want them to be removed.
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Looking forward to the NP change. Hope it goes through! Even after the nerf it's still awfully strong when you NP enemy casters.
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On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems.
You don't need colossi to deal with ling infestor. When playing protoss fighting a ling infestor build, I just went HT with storm and stalkers. Storm MELTS zerglings and you just throw a few feedbacks on the infestors. You can honestly just go with solely gateway units against ling infestor.
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SoCal8932 Posts
On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP.
better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg.
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Hilarious to me that dustin browder (when talking about terrans) says some shit like "we don't want to just remove cool abilities , because that's no fun, nobody want's to see that" But fuck zergs right? Who cares if we completely change how their shit works.
And quit comparing this to the KA change, you have to be fucking retarded to think those changes are anything alike.
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On September 10 2011 01:20 roemy wrote:
it was ok to give total immunity to the ultralisk because it was (still is)... subpar...
but to thors, colossi and archons...?
the ultralisk already couldn't be neuraled because of its passive ability frenzy. it can't be slowed, snared, stunned, or mind controlled
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On September 10 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:22 RedDragon571 wrote:
No more np for mothership.... thats going to be retarded yes, retarded.... like you? your saying an infestor SHOULD take out a 400/400 unit? your saying it SHOULD make ALL capital ships obsolete? Thank god you don't work on the balance team.......
You've obviously never dealt with mothorships as Z. Z anti air is downright awful.
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On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP.
The race is designed that way (which is fine) but when coupled with a caster like the infestor it becomes complete BS...
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I can't wait till pro's actually figure out how to start using Mothership effectively so blizzard will realize the unit is too damn strong to be in the multiplayer. It's going to happen.
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On September 10 2011 01:24 FreedonNadd wrote:
I dont see the NP nerf as a problem.
Corruptors and Vikings blind counter Colossus, Mothership and Carriers and non of them can handle Corruptors without ground support from stalkers, thats why fungal is strong again.
BCs are hardly seen in TvZ which makes the BCs more reliable now.
Thor is not that of a problem, corruption spell and broodlord combination will be the more viable way dealing with them from range.
ZvZ will become really interesting without NP on Ultras and Broodlords.
why are you talking when you have no clue what youre saying.
corrupters are not good vs. collossi, roach/hydra/corrupter is so dated its retarded. it can still win games when youre way ahead and toss moves our early but it's hardly a good counter to heavy collossi play from P.
nobody cares about BCs.
ZvZ.. Ultras have been immune forever.. and neural on broodlords is hardly standard..
ugh.
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On September 10 2011 01:29 uub3r wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:20 roemy wrote:
it was ok to give total immunity to the ultralisk because it was (still is)... subpar...
but to thors, colossi and archons...? the ultralisk already couldn't be neuraled because of its passive ability frenzy. it can't be slowed, snared, stunned, or mind controlled
the lame thing is now every massive unit will have almost the same amount of buffs that frenzy gives to the ultralisk
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What annoys me is that the only thing worth NP'ing now (remember its 25 energy more than a fungal) is a tank or immortal, might as well just forget researching it and stick to fungals/IT
Also yeah, Ultras should be made 'Massive' now since their unique ability -Frenzy- is basically made void...
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Want too keep NP? How about we make it so that it takes the unit out of the battle instead of giving the zerg control of the unit. I think that not only do you lose the unit from your army but that it now deals damage to your army is overkill. NP ruins any sort of positioning. Suddenly you're getting huge splash from your collosi AND if you reposition away from it you risk losing the unit because you're no longer protecting it? Somethings got to change.
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On September 10 2011 01:29 TangYiChen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. You don't need colossi to deal with ling infestor. When playing protoss fighting a ling infestor build, I just went HT with storm and stalkers. Storm MELTS zerglings and you just throw a few feedbacks on the infestors. You can honestly just go with solely gateway units against ling infestor.
errr.... the problem with that is that, as a zerg, seeing any inkling of templar tech makes you go for roaches... which the zerg can and WILL get en masse before the Protoss has the critmass storm + 4 ht's that can make a zerg cringe. Even then, storm is subpar vs roaches.
Ling infestor is strong until Protoss gets splash, then roach infestor becomes the by and by vogue, then broodlord infestor... which is what Blizzard is ultimately trying to nerf anyways...
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On September 10 2011 01:29 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:26 Assirra wrote:On September 10 2011 01:23 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 01:14 Lonyo wrote:On September 10 2011 01:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 10 2011 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
Basically, in ZvP, if the collossi are allowed to live and get off attacks, the Z army will melt away quickly. Z has to take the collossi out of the fight quickly. They can either do this by NPing, or they can send in corruptors so that the P runs his collossi away. If this change goes live, we will be back to the pre-April 2011 state of the game, where we guess how many corruptors to build so that we don't have too many worthless units left over, should we win the engagement. Is this what Blizzard intended the match-up to be? I hope not.
Since April zergs have figured out how good broods are so corruptors are not useless as you claim, not even close. Neural essentially removes the ONLY advantage toss has which is better higher tier units. Gateway units are trash against bio AND hydra/roach. Its gotten to the point where mass infestors can be the answer for all of zergs problems. They are nothing more than a bandaid to an overall broken design. By all means they should get rid of neural parasite and look at some of the core problems with zerg. My personal opinion is the roach position in the tech tree should be traded with hyrdas ala BW hydras.... Agreed, infestors have become the go-to unit and are pretty much broken, but they need to fix the rest of zerg like you say if they are going to heavily nerf infestors. Terran and protoss have ways to deal with infestor NP (EMP eliminates the ability to NP, and feedback kills the infestor if it has enough energy for NP). It's just going to put zerg back to almost where they were before infestors became useful, since there are no core changes elsewhere, which is pretty stupid. there is no reason a toss should have to tech all the way to colossi AND HT with storm do deal with just ling/infestor. its fucking gay as it is that zerg gets away with an econ advantage all game long and can rely on one unit for all its problems. Oh you mean the economic advantage they NEED otherwise they get simply lose? yea, that is obviously OP. better yet, you think protoss could possibly harass the zerg a bit instead of letting them do whatever they want? and in any matchup, letting the zerg do whatever they want is NEVER a good idea if you want to win vs zerg.
they do harass and its hard to do and not fall behind at the same time. we don't have the same effective tools as terran to harass mineral lines like drop ship harass or hellions (RIP).
Stargate harass is one of the best YET its become so predictable and most every half decent zerg can hold it off with minimal losses.
Things like DTs are too much of an investment and coin-flip as to whether they even pay for themselves....
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