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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 16:34 Pillage wrote:Show nested quote +Rest assured, this change will never get past PTR. Because we can all sleep soundly with the knowledge that Blizzard has never made a poor balance or design decision. I mean it's not like they just proposed that Neural no longer works on Massive units without any other changes. Yeah my brain also tells me that this change won't go through. Still seeing ridiculous suggestions like this always scares me. Zerg needs the versatility the infestor provides just because the race as of right now is incomplete. It's not balanced in an ideal sense, but for the time being it is balanced.
The whole race is versatile via the hatch mechanic, so you don't need a tweener unit to be the core of your entire race.
At least you shouldn't by design.
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Funny, I remember watching JYP vs StrifeCo yesterday, both at 200-200 with Strife only infestor lings, and JYP with colossi, stalkers, zealots, a big battle, then all colossi were neuraled then the battle was 5 seconds long, Strife stayed at 195 supply while JYP was at 110 :D
Before that I never thought that neural could be too strong. And today I see that they want to change neural xD
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On September 09 2011 16:36 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:34 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:33 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:28 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:25 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:21 qui wrote:
Disregarding the balance issue for the purpose of discussion:
NP was one of the few "cool" things about the Zerg was which before even this change felt incomplete.
They acknowledged that corrupters are lame and boring but this change means Z will have to get a large number of them to deal with the massive units that NP helped against.
Where is the sense in this?
I know personally as a Z player unless I see a decent amount of immortals with sentry backup, I will not research NP.
Which is a shame, because it's fun but still counterable. The sense is giving you more incentive to buy HOTS I guess, I dont really know. They call the corruptor boring and not fun, but force you to use it. I agree with those sentiments. I dont really get the whole "boring and not fun unit" thing. Its an RTS? Either way, the infestor was becoming the one and only one unit zerg needed particularly in ZvP. Big units could be neuraled and small units fungaled. There ya go, a shut down protoss. They clearly want corruptors to be the proper response to colossus rather than more infestors. Besides whats so boring about corruptors? They even have a spell dammit! Thats more than I can say about a lot of units. They're slow with a short range and are completely uninteresting like the overseer. Goodness me. I can apply that sentence to like over half the units in the game! and yet blizzard is only talking about changing those two in regards to being boring, goodness me!
If you think over half the units are boring in an RTS then you should PROBABLY reconsider why you are playing the game in the first place.
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I feel like the NP nerf was aimed at roach/infestor style of zvp, but I don't think it will influence ling/bling/infestor style that much, because fungal is the key in that composition because it made it easier for units to get bling dropped. Where roach/infestor styles neural parasite archon or colossus would crush the protoss even if they under control for a little bit because of how good those unit are against other protoss units.
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On September 09 2011 16:38 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:36 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:34 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:33 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:28 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:25 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:21 qui wrote:
Disregarding the balance issue for the purpose of discussion:
NP was one of the few "cool" things about the Zerg was which before even this change felt incomplete.
They acknowledged that corrupters are lame and boring but this change means Z will have to get a large number of them to deal with the massive units that NP helped against.
Where is the sense in this?
I know personally as a Z player unless I see a decent amount of immortals with sentry backup, I will not research NP.
Which is a shame, because it's fun but still counterable. The sense is giving you more incentive to buy HOTS I guess, I dont really know. They call the corruptor boring and not fun, but force you to use it. I agree with those sentiments. I dont really get the whole "boring and not fun unit" thing. Its an RTS? Either way, the infestor was becoming the one and only one unit zerg needed particularly in ZvP. Big units could be neuraled and small units fungaled. There ya go, a shut down protoss. They clearly want corruptors to be the proper response to colossus rather than more infestors. Besides whats so boring about corruptors? They even have a spell dammit! Thats more than I can say about a lot of units. They're slow with a short range and are completely uninteresting like the overseer. Goodness me. I can apply that sentence to like over half the units in the game! and yet blizzard is only talking about changing those two in regards to being boring, goodness me! If you think over half the units are boring in an RTS then you should PROBABLY reconsider why you are playing the game in the first place.
I dont think you read my post if that's what you came away with.
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wow, that's a big change for ZvP but ZvT aswell with the thor/hellion and armor upgrade build. At least it make the infestor a little bit less the go to unit all the time.
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On September 09 2011 16:34 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:33 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:28 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:25 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:21 qui wrote:
Disregarding the balance issue for the purpose of discussion:
NP was one of the few "cool" things about the Zerg was which before even this change felt incomplete.
They acknowledged that corrupters are lame and boring but this change means Z will have to get a large number of them to deal with the massive units that NP helped against.
Where is the sense in this?
I know personally as a Z player unless I see a decent amount of immortals with sentry backup, I will not research NP.
Which is a shame, because it's fun but still counterable. The sense is giving you more incentive to buy HOTS I guess, I dont really know. They call the corruptor boring and not fun, but force you to use it. I agree with those sentiments. I dont really get the whole "boring and not fun unit" thing. Its an RTS? Either way, the infestor was becoming the one and only one unit zerg needed particularly in ZvP. Big units could be neuraled and small units fungaled. There ya go, a shut down protoss. They clearly want corruptors to be the proper response to colossus rather than more infestors. Besides whats so boring about corruptors? They even have a spell dammit! Thats more than I can say about a lot of units. They're slow with a short range and are completely uninteresting like the overseer. Goodness me. I can apply that sentence to like over half the units in the game!
Do tell?
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On September 09 2011 16:36 Loodah wrote:
Do zergs honestly still think PvZ is balanced? Fungal makes protoss micro irrelavent - and protoss units without good micro are actually laughably bad. That alone breaks the matchup -
Forget that infestors have insane dps and that neural parasite could control our only cost effective units in the game for the duration of the fight. Just the fact that my units are clumped up and not in a concave make the unit silly.
I was actually afraid that this patch was a huge buff for zerg against toss because of the upgrades fix for neural parasite. That would completely break PvZ as it would almost give you an incentive not to get upgrades as protoss....
And forcefields don't make zerg micro irrelevant? Just because zerg are actually using their "only" good unit doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed so hard.
This change, with a hydra change of some sort might actually be acceptable.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On September 09 2011 16:36 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:34 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:33 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:28 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:25 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:21 qui wrote:
Disregarding the balance issue for the purpose of discussion:
NP was one of the few "cool" things about the Zerg was which before even this change felt incomplete.
They acknowledged that corrupters are lame and boring but this change means Z will have to get a large number of them to deal with the massive units that NP helped against.
Where is the sense in this?
I know personally as a Z player unless I see a decent amount of immortals with sentry backup, I will not research NP.
Which is a shame, because it's fun but still counterable. The sense is giving you more incentive to buy HOTS I guess, I dont really know. They call the corruptor boring and not fun, but force you to use it. I agree with those sentiments. I dont really get the whole "boring and not fun unit" thing. Its an RTS? Either way, the infestor was becoming the one and only one unit zerg needed particularly in ZvP. Big units could be neuraled and small units fungaled. There ya go, a shut down protoss. They clearly want corruptors to be the proper response to colossus rather than more infestors. Besides whats so boring about corruptors? They even have a spell dammit! Thats more than I can say about a lot of units. They're slow with a short range and are completely uninteresting like the overseer. Goodness me. I can apply that sentence to like over half the units in the game! and yet blizzard is only talking about changing those two in regards to being boring, goodness me!
Browder said that their use is one-dimensional. "You're making Collossi, i make Corruptors". "You make mass air, i make corruptors". There is not much use to them, they're not actively enfolding new strategies.
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On September 09 2011 16:41 ArizonaBay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:36 Loodah wrote:
Do zergs honestly still think PvZ is balanced? Fungal makes protoss micro irrelavent - and protoss units without good micro are actually laughably bad. That alone breaks the matchup -
Forget that infestors have insane dps and that neural parasite could control our only cost effective units in the game for the duration of the fight. Just the fact that my units are clumped up and not in a concave make the unit silly.
I was actually afraid that this patch was a huge buff for zerg against toss because of the upgrades fix for neural parasite. That would completely break PvZ as it would almost give you an incentive not to get upgrades as protoss.... And forcefields don't make zerg micro irrelevant? Just because zerg are actually using their "only" good unit doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed so hard. This change, with a hydra change of some sort might actually be acceptable.
You can go under, over, and around forcefields. What does fungal allow you to do?
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United States7166 Posts
let me be clear, i was only implying how stupid it is to do that change w/o any other changes. I do think there are issues right now zvp overall especially with infestors. The fungal nerf does help somewhat, but really neural not working on Massive units is just a silly way to try to fix them, when there are surely better methods than simply removing so many possibilities/options from the game which is what this change does
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On September 09 2011 16:42 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:36 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:34 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:33 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:28 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:25 Serpico wrote:On September 09 2011 16:21 qui wrote:
Disregarding the balance issue for the purpose of discussion:
NP was one of the few "cool" things about the Zerg was which before even this change felt incomplete.
They acknowledged that corrupters are lame and boring but this change means Z will have to get a large number of them to deal with the massive units that NP helped against.
Where is the sense in this?
I know personally as a Z player unless I see a decent amount of immortals with sentry backup, I will not research NP.
Which is a shame, because it's fun but still counterable. The sense is giving you more incentive to buy HOTS I guess, I dont really know. They call the corruptor boring and not fun, but force you to use it. I agree with those sentiments. I dont really get the whole "boring and not fun unit" thing. Its an RTS? Either way, the infestor was becoming the one and only one unit zerg needed particularly in ZvP. Big units could be neuraled and small units fungaled. There ya go, a shut down protoss. They clearly want corruptors to be the proper response to colossus rather than more infestors. Besides whats so boring about corruptors? They even have a spell dammit! Thats more than I can say about a lot of units. They're slow with a short range and are completely uninteresting like the overseer. Goodness me. I can apply that sentence to like over half the units in the game! and yet blizzard is only talking about changing those two in regards to being boring, goodness me! Browder said that their use is one-dimensional. "You're making Collossi, i make Corruptors". "You make mass air, i make corruptors". There is not much use to them, they're not actively enfolding new strategies.
The point is blizzard is looking at changing the corruptor and overseer and you're supporting that.
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On September 09 2011 15:32 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:42 Sajaki wrote:
Wait, what? Why is everyone saying they have to go back to roach hydra corruptor due to a nerf to neural? Roach Infestor Corruptor -> Broodlord
You've clearly never played zerg. Try building, as fast as you can: spawning pool -> lair -> infestation pit -> spire -> hive -> greater spire ( 395s if you don't count spire build time since you're waiting on hive) (costs: 1250min, 700gas) before toss builds, as fast as he can: gateway -> cybercore -> robo facility -> robo bay ( 235s if built immediately in sequence) (costs: 700min, 300gas) Colossus: (75 seconds) cost: 300min, 200gasBroodlord: (74 seconds) cost: 300min, 250gasIn other words, you're stuck with corruptors to beat colossi. No broodlords. Impossibly expensive until late game. Way too much time. Same thing goes for ultras even with the build time buff. Zerg shouldn't have to tech to tier 3 just so it can beat other races' tier 2 units. Absolutely ridiculous. Now you know why zergs LOVE infestors, and why NP is so important against massive tier 2 units.
Uh thanks for agreeing with me? I said Roach Infestor Corruptor INTO broodlords lategame. Im not expecting hive tech in 12 minutes. This is in the lategame, you know, when toss gets that deathball everyone hates. That doesn't come if someone rushes for colossus ASAP... 1 colossus and 4 stalkers isnt a deathball TT;;
I love how you mention that its ridiculous for zerg to have to tech to tier two to have to beat protoss' tier two, when protoss of all races has to tech to tier THREE (Colossus tier three not two!)
to beat other races tier 1 - 1.5! We cant stay on gateway tech unless we do a fast 1/2 base allin... nonono TT;; and our ACTUAL tier two tech (Immortals, phoenix, Voidrays) are really nothing your tier two consisting of hydras (good vs all above) and infestors (good against all above) cant handle...
...
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There is simply no way this change will go through, just like the 30 second bunker build time, and the fungal does not affect air units changes. It is simply way too drastic, as NP is literally the only way zerg can deal with death ball armies unless they buff the hydra and or corrupter.
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On September 09 2011 16:43 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:41 ArizonaBay wrote:On September 09 2011 16:36 Loodah wrote:
Do zergs honestly still think PvZ is balanced? Fungal makes protoss micro irrelavent - and protoss units without good micro are actually laughably bad. That alone breaks the matchup -
Forget that infestors have insane dps and that neural parasite could control our only cost effective units in the game for the duration of the fight. Just the fact that my units are clumped up and not in a concave make the unit silly.
I was actually afraid that this patch was a huge buff for zerg against toss because of the upgrades fix for neural parasite. That would completely break PvZ as it would almost give you an incentive not to get upgrades as protoss.... And forcefields don't make zerg micro irrelevant? Just because zerg are actually using their "only" good unit doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed so hard. This change, with a hydra change of some sort might actually be acceptable. You can go under, over, and around forcefields. What does fungal allow you to do?
You could also destroy ffs if you had ultras 15 minutes into a game. Doesnt really mean much.
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On September 09 2011 16:43 Zelniq wrote:
let me be clear, i was only implying how stupid it is to do that change w/o any other changes. I do think there are issues right now zvp overall especially with infestors, the fungal nerf does help somewhat, but really neural not working on Massive units is just a silly way to try to fix them when there are surely better methods than simply removing so many possibilities/options in the game
Honestly the neural changes are whatever to me, that matchup is pretty close to being balanced. I want to see what else they have planned for terrans because so far the nerfs for zerg is greater than terran and that just seems silly to me.
1-1-1 is still out there and so are ghosts.
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I saw a PvZ yesterday where the protoss player didn't turtle and wait for high templar, but actually pushed out with colossi against an infestor heavy zerg with neural parasite researched. The result was the protoss just didn't have much of a chance in open batte, in that case, but I feel generally that even with absolutely perfect positioning by the protoss you're worse off. Destiny always says this, that you need to go for high templar against his infestor style and I imagine that Blizzard acknowledged this and felt that it limited protoss' options too much in case infestor strategies ever became dominant.
I hope neural parasite is one of those things they look at in HotS though, the only use I can imagine for it now is against ghosts, vikings and tanks in ZvT, but it's only barely better than fungal there. (maybe not anymore with the fungal nerf)
Being forced to use corruptors (are you?) to counter the colossus isn't so interesting, but I always thought that Blizzard prioritizes balancing the game in these patches. As long as gameplay doesn't degenerate you can do without some diversity, see for instance the reaper changes. Not that it's necessarily a good thing, but I guess we all can wait for the expansion to address these issues?
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Just emailed Blizzard questioning the NP nerf and they respond with saying that Infestor's are subpar and in parenthesis say Neural Parasite is good against Thors...
http://imgur.com/CzOty
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NP should not work on motherships. The rest of the protoss arsenal is fair game in my opinion. The only change I would make is for feedback to cancel neural parasite. It gives protoss a way to recover stolen colossi without suicidally blinking stalkers in to snipe the infestors.
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On September 09 2011 16:45 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:43 Medrea wrote:On September 09 2011 16:41 ArizonaBay wrote:On September 09 2011 16:36 Loodah wrote:
Do zergs honestly still think PvZ is balanced? Fungal makes protoss micro irrelavent - and protoss units without good micro are actually laughably bad. That alone breaks the matchup -
Forget that infestors have insane dps and that neural parasite could control our only cost effective units in the game for the duration of the fight. Just the fact that my units are clumped up and not in a concave make the unit silly.
I was actually afraid that this patch was a huge buff for zerg against toss because of the upgrades fix for neural parasite. That would completely break PvZ as it would almost give you an incentive not to get upgrades as protoss.... And forcefields don't make zerg micro irrelevant? Just because zerg are actually using their "only" good unit doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed so hard. This change, with a hydra change of some sort might actually be acceptable. You can go under, over, and around forcefields. What does fungal allow you to do? You could also destroy ffs if you had ultras 15 minutes into a game. Doesnt really mean much.
Well one ultra anyway. But yeah I don't really see that very often. Good point though, 4 ways to mitigate forcefields.
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EPT
