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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
I don't think this patch will help the protoss as much as it needs to.
TvP is all about ghosts anyway and the immortal is just another unit that is countered by them.
Blink nerf makes no sense, this is like nerf all the possibility for protoss to win out of 1 base and I don't see how this will help PvP. I'm just tired of things that are "helping pvp become better matchup" when they only ruin the other matchups for protoss.
Warp prism prism hp buff will help, but still the thing remains is that protoss doesn't have good units for drop until lategame.
I don't get why is the motheship buff, it won't change anything.
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What i don't get is why the protoss upgrades are so ridiculously expensive.
Charge costs 200/200, blink 150/150, thermal lance 200/200, storm 200/200 with
long research times.
Compare that to stim / combat / concussive. You get nearly all of these 3 upgrades for Charge,
and top of that these 3 upgrades are all superior (concussive arguably).
The other casters come with their damage spell by default on top of the energy upgrades.
These huge costs and high tech tree upgrades kill A LOT of potential timings because you can't afford them in time because you're extremely vulnerable to timings.
Make Protoss upgrades more accessible earlier. Make them cheaper and faster.
Image charge costing 100/100 with half the build time. There would be a huge amount of timings and builds that open up in PvT but as well in PvZ. Void-Ray / Phoenix and chargelots timings for instance in PvZ with air giving vision for warp-ins, very bw-esque. PvT early charge off of 2 base while roaming the map and preventing unlimited kiting, while later adding storm / ht for feedback.
You won't be as reliant on force fields, and if you lose your sentries in the first 10 minutes you're not dead or infinitely behind.
Protoss units aren't bad per se, Zealots deal ridiculously high damage for their cost, but by the time charge makes them usable the timings are gone, the ranged armies of zerg / terran to big to make them useful.
Warp-Prism with speed are incredible fast, even though they are fragile, they become more useful.
But the hassle to get the speed is too much.
I don't know why Blizzard aren't experimenting with Protoss upgrades, compared to the other races Protoss has the most expensive / difficult to get and least useful by the time you get them.
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United States7483 Posts
Hey blizzard. Fix carriers please, reduce the build time. You just did it with ultralisks, I want to be able to make carriers for a change.
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i like how they make the warp prism more viable, however i would like some more viability for the carrier/mothership (even with the acceleration buff), the focus of protoss is on robo / gateway right now, and any stargate units that do pop out are voidrays or phoenix. i think the main problem is that the main things that counter air units (vikings/corruptors) are also fantastic against colossi, but not against immortals and gateway units. while the range of counters to non-air units are alot larger.
also the blue flame hellion nerf was expected, the barracks build time is a bit weird but will probably not go through.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:43 fietstas wrote:
i like how they make the warp prism more viable, however i would like some more viability for the carrier/mothership (even with the acceleration buff), the focus of protoss is on robo / gateway right now, and any stargate units that do pop out are voidrays or phoenix. i think the main problem is that the main things that counter air units (vikings/corruptors) are also fantastic against colossi, but not against immortals and gateway units. while the range of counters to non-air units are alot larger.
also the blue flame hellion nerf was expected, the barracks build time is a bit weird but will probably not go through.
The main issue for carriers (in my mind) is the build time. They take forever to get out, and they aren't good in small numbers (you need 4-6 for them to kick in). That leaves a huge window where your army is out a massive chunk of money (350/250 for a carrier) before you get a unit that doesn't do much without a bunch of them, so you're very vulnerable to enemy aggression in that period, unless you are way ahead, in which case: why are you making carriers?
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On September 09 2011 02:47 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:43 fietstas wrote:
i like how they make the warp prism more viable, however i would like some more viability for the carrier/mothership (even with the acceleration buff), the focus of protoss is on robo / gateway right now, and any stargate units that do pop out are voidrays or phoenix. i think the main problem is that the main things that counter air units (vikings/corruptors) are also fantastic against colossi, but not against immortals and gateway units. while the range of counters to non-air units are alot larger.
also the blue flame hellion nerf was expected, the barracks build time is a bit weird but will probably not go through. The main issue for carriers (in my mind) is the build time. They take forever to get out, and they aren't good in small numbers (you need 4-6 for them to kick in). That leaves a huge window where your army is out a massive chunk of money (350/250 for a carrier) before you get a unit that doesn't do much without a bunch of them, so you're very vulnerable to enemy aggression in that period, unless you are way ahead, in which case: why are you making carriers?
Its actually 450/250 per carrier. A carrier ships with 4 interceptors missing, for some reason.
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You really can't do carriers without going for air upgrades. They are extremely affected by upgrade advantage. If you get out a bunch of 0/0 carriers to go after someone closing in on 3/3 marauders, you are doing (5-4)*2 damage per interceptor strike. If you are trying to cost out a carrier switch, you need to factor in the upgrades.
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On September 09 2011 02:18 Joseph123 wrote:
I don't think this patch will help the protoss as much as it needs to.
TvP is all about ghosts anyway and the immortal is just another unit that is countered by them.
Blink nerf makes no sense, this is like nerf all the possibility for protoss to win out of 1 base and I don't see how this will help PvP. I'm just tired of things that are "helping pvp become better matchup" when they only ruin the other matchups for protoss.
Warp prism prism hp buff will help, but still the thing remains is that protoss doesn't have good units for drop until lategame.
I don't get why is the motheship buff, it won't change anything.
Ghosts are too strong overall. Basicly the ghost is a hard counter to all the late tech that the Z can throw at you. The same goes a bit for protoss as EMP seems a bit too strong but I can't really comment on it too much as I play Zerg. The thing I see as the problem is the low gas cost for it. This makes it very easy to combine the ghost with other higher tech units as they are not so gasdependant.
(Mech + Ghost... )
Hopefully they adress the ghost soon as it's currently not a big problem for me when I play but it will be now when more terrans will take after MVP and what he did to July
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Guys, before you get carried away talking about carriers and other random protoss woes, check the disclaimer (unless you really wanna get banned).
This thread is only for discussing the existing balance changes in the patch.
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On September 09 2011 02:34 Elefanto wrote:
What i don't get is why the protoss upgrades are so ridiculously expensive.
Charge costs 200/200, blink 150/150, thermal lance 200/200, storm 200/200 with
long research times.
Compare that to stim / combat / concussive. You get nearly all of these 3 upgrades for Charge,
and top of that these 3 upgrades are all superior (concussive arguably).
The other casters come with their damage spell by default on top of the energy upgrades.
These huge costs and high tech tree upgrades kill A LOT of potential timings because you can't afford them in time because you're extremely vulnerable to timings.
Make Protoss upgrades more accessible earlier. Make them cheaper and faster.
Image charge costing 100/100 with half the build time. There would be a huge amount of timings and builds that open up in PvT but as well in PvZ. Void-Ray / Phoenix and chargelots timings for instance in PvZ with air giving vision for warp-ins, very bw-esque. PvT early charge off of 2 base while roaming the map and preventing unlimited kiting, while later adding storm / ht for feedback.
You won't be as reliant on force fields, and if you lose your sentries in the first 10 minutes you're not dead or infinitely behind.
Protoss units aren't bad per se, Zealots deal ridiculously high damage for their cost, but by the time charge makes them usable the timings are gone, the ranged armies of zerg / terran to big to make them useful.
Warp-Prism with speed are incredible fast, even though they are fragile, they become more useful.
But the hassle to get the speed is too much.
I don't know why Blizzard aren't experimenting with Protoss upgrades, compared to the other races Protoss has the most expensive / difficult to get and least useful by the time you get them.
PvT storm maybe..but least useful? no way when you need chargelots vs MMM or need lance vs MMM or even vs zerg who has infestors with neural parasite. I have no idea why you think charge/lance/blink/maybe storm are bad upgrades later in the game when they are good basicly all the time.
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On September 09 2011 03:19 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:34 Elefanto wrote:
What i don't get is why the protoss upgrades are so ridiculously expensive.
Charge costs 200/200, blink 150/150, thermal lance 200/200, storm 200/200 with
long research times.
Compare that to stim / combat / concussive. You get nearly all of these 3 upgrades for Charge,
and top of that these 3 upgrades are all superior (concussive arguably).
The other casters come with their damage spell by default on top of the energy upgrades.
These huge costs and high tech tree upgrades kill A LOT of potential timings because you can't afford them in time because you're extremely vulnerable to timings.
Make Protoss upgrades more accessible earlier. Make them cheaper and faster.
Image charge costing 100/100 with half the build time. There would be a huge amount of timings and builds that open up in PvT but as well in PvZ. Void-Ray / Phoenix and chargelots timings for instance in PvZ with air giving vision for warp-ins, very bw-esque. PvT early charge off of 2 base while roaming the map and preventing unlimited kiting, while later adding storm / ht for feedback.
You won't be as reliant on force fields, and if you lose your sentries in the first 10 minutes you're not dead or infinitely behind.
Protoss units aren't bad per se, Zealots deal ridiculously high damage for their cost, but by the time charge makes them usable the timings are gone, the ranged armies of zerg / terran to big to make them useful.
Warp-Prism with speed are incredible fast, even though they are fragile, they become more useful.
But the hassle to get the speed is too much.
I don't know why Blizzard aren't experimenting with Protoss upgrades, compared to the other races Protoss has the most expensive / difficult to get and least useful by the time you get them. PvT storm maybe..but least useful? no way when you need chargelots vs MMM or need lance vs MMM or even vs zerg who has infestors with neural parasite. I have no idea why you think charge/lance/blink/maybe storm are bad upgrades later in the game when they are good basicly all the time.
I think what he means Terran can get out stuff like concussive well before you can have charge, for example, and with the increased blink research time the same can apply there, if it goes through.
I think that this will be a great project overall though. It will help move the game in the right direction, and while it might not be perfect, I believe it should do enough for the time being, and at least it's nice to see a big patch before HotS.
I am sure Blizzard also has Heart of the Swarm at the back of their minds at the same time though. You don't want to throw a patch together that will have to be completely re-done once the expansion hits.
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On September 09 2011 02:34 Elefanto wrote:
What i don't get is why the protoss upgrades are so ridiculously expensive.
Charge costs 200/200, blink 150/150, thermal lance 200/200, storm 200/200 with
long research times.
Compare that to stim / combat / concussive. You get nearly all of these 3 upgrades for Charge,
and top of that these 3 upgrades are all superior (concussive arguably).
The other casters come with their damage spell by default on top of the energy upgrades.
These huge costs and high tech tree upgrades kill A LOT of potential timings because you can't afford them in time because you're extremely vulnerable to timings.
Make Protoss upgrades more accessible earlier. Make them cheaper and faster.
Image charge costing 100/100 with half the build time. There would be a huge amount of timings and builds that open up in PvT but as well in PvZ. Void-Ray / Phoenix and chargelots timings for instance in PvZ with air giving vision for warp-ins, very bw-esque. PvT early charge off of 2 base while roaming the map and preventing unlimited kiting, while later adding storm / ht for feedback.
You won't be as reliant on force fields, and if you lose your sentries in the first 10 minutes you're not dead or infinitely behind.
Protoss units aren't bad per se, Zealots deal ridiculously high damage for their cost, but by the time charge makes them usable the timings are gone, the ranged armies of zerg / terran to big to make them useful.
Warp-Prism with speed are incredible fast, even though they are fragile, they become more useful.
But the hassle to get the speed is too much.
I don't know why Blizzard aren't experimenting with Protoss upgrades, compared to the other races Protoss has the most expensive / difficult to get and least useful by the time you get them.
Those protoss upgrades are way better than combat shields/concussive.
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I don't feel like the build time on Ultralisks is what was holding them back. Don't see that change helping much, but I could be wrong (and hope I am).
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On September 09 2011 04:05 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:34 Elefanto wrote:
What i don't get is why the protoss upgrades are so ridiculously expensive.
Charge costs 200/200, blink 150/150, thermal lance 200/200, storm 200/200 with
long research times.
Compare that to stim / combat / concussive. You get nearly all of these 3 upgrades for Charge,
and top of that these 3 upgrades are all superior (concussive arguably).
The other casters come with their damage spell by default on top of the energy upgrades.
These huge costs and high tech tree upgrades kill A LOT of potential timings because you can't afford them in time because you're extremely vulnerable to timings.
Make Protoss upgrades more accessible earlier. Make them cheaper and faster.
Image charge costing 100/100 with half the build time. There would be a huge amount of timings and builds that open up in PvT but as well in PvZ. Void-Ray / Phoenix and chargelots timings for instance in PvZ with air giving vision for warp-ins, very bw-esque. PvT early charge off of 2 base while roaming the map and preventing unlimited kiting, while later adding storm / ht for feedback.
You won't be as reliant on force fields, and if you lose your sentries in the first 10 minutes you're not dead or infinitely behind.
Protoss units aren't bad per se, Zealots deal ridiculously high damage for their cost, but by the time charge makes them usable the timings are gone, the ranged armies of zerg / terran to big to make them useful.
Warp-Prism with speed are incredible fast, even though they are fragile, they become more useful.
But the hassle to get the speed is too much.
I don't know why Blizzard aren't experimenting with Protoss upgrades, compared to the other races Protoss has the most expensive / difficult to get and least useful by the time you get them. Those protoss upgrades are way better than combat shields/concussive.
I think his point is that to be viable, it is much more expensive to be Protoss than to be Terran. For example, all a Terran army needs is Concussive, Combat, and Stim. Combat and Stim are as much as charge, and concussive is as much as a reactor, or half the gas cost of a sentry. If you put in ghosts, a Terran army arguably doesn't need Concussive shell (I've seen pro games where the Terran forgets Concussive shell, and they do fine).
To be a Protoss, you basically need all of those upgrades. Thermal lance because you need to tech switch to Colossi, or you start off with Colossi, and then storm is the tech switch or your starting off spot. Blink is needed to stop drops or to try to pick off vikings to save Colossi, and Charge makes Zealots useful. The other issue is, you can get all of the Terran upgrades Tier 1. None of the Protoss upgrades are Tier 1. Charge and Blink are Tier 2, while Thermal Lance and Storm are Tier 3. So they are already way more expensive time wise, and building cost wise.
Blink with good Stalker micro is way too strong early game, so it makes sense that it is Tier 2. A lot of these would be too strong early game, so it does make sense why they are later upgrades. But when you compare how expensive they are, and how necessary they are, it becomes too ridiculous mid game to late game.
Pretty much everything that Protoss has is super expensive. Protoss, due to chrono boost, is supposed to be ahead in the upgrades compared to the Terran. How you are you supposed to upgrade your ground attack/armor while also getting all of these necessary support upgrades as well? Where does the money come from? It's not surprising that Protoss are usually about equal to Terrans in upgrades; you just cannot pay to have all of the necessary upgrades, and a large army, with the money you have off of 2/3 base, and get it all in time.
Or maybe you can, and Protoss build orders suck. I certainly don't know. I want to say that Protoss units just don't stack as well Marines and Marauders do, but Colossi obviously do. I don't know.
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On September 09 2011 04:26 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:05 Voltaire wrote:On September 09 2011 02:34 Elefanto wrote:
What i don't get is why the protoss upgrades are so ridiculously expensive.
Charge costs 200/200, blink 150/150, thermal lance 200/200, storm 200/200 with
long research times.
Compare that to stim / combat / concussive. You get nearly all of these 3 upgrades for Charge,
and top of that these 3 upgrades are all superior (concussive arguably).
The other casters come with their damage spell by default on top of the energy upgrades.
These huge costs and high tech tree upgrades kill A LOT of potential timings because you can't afford them in time because you're extremely vulnerable to timings.
Make Protoss upgrades more accessible earlier. Make them cheaper and faster.
Image charge costing 100/100 with half the build time. There would be a huge amount of timings and builds that open up in PvT but as well in PvZ. Void-Ray / Phoenix and chargelots timings for instance in PvZ with air giving vision for warp-ins, very bw-esque. PvT early charge off of 2 base while roaming the map and preventing unlimited kiting, while later adding storm / ht for feedback.
You won't be as reliant on force fields, and if you lose your sentries in the first 10 minutes you're not dead or infinitely behind.
Protoss units aren't bad per se, Zealots deal ridiculously high damage for their cost, but by the time charge makes them usable the timings are gone, the ranged armies of zerg / terran to big to make them useful.
Warp-Prism with speed are incredible fast, even though they are fragile, they become more useful.
But the hassle to get the speed is too much.
I don't know why Blizzard aren't experimenting with Protoss upgrades, compared to the other races Protoss has the most expensive / difficult to get and least useful by the time you get them. Those protoss upgrades are way better than combat shields/concussive. I think his point is that to be viable, it is much more expensive to be Protoss than to be Terran. For example, all a Terran army needs is Concussive, Combat, and Stim. Combat and Stim are as much as charge, and concussive is as much as a reactor, or half the gas cost of a sentry. If you put in ghosts, a Terran army arguably doesn't need Concussive shell (I've seen pro games where the Terran forgets Concussive shell, and they do fine). To be a Protoss, you basically need all of those upgrades. Thermal lance because you need to tech switch to Colossi, or you start off with Colossi, and then storm is the tech switch or your starting off spot. Blink is needed to stop drops or to try to pick off vikings to save Colossi, and Charge makes Zealots useful. The other issue is, you can get all of the Terran upgrades Tier 1. None of the Protoss upgrades are Tier 1. Charge and Blink are Tier 2, while Thermal Lance and Storm are Tier 3. So they are already way more expensive time wise, and building cost wise. Blink with good Stalker micro is way too strong early game, so it makes sense that it is Tier 2. A lot of these would be too strong early game, so it does make sense why they are later upgrades. But when you compare how expensive they are, and how necessary they are, it becomes too ridiculous mid game to late game. Pretty much everything that Protoss has is super expensive. Protoss, due to chrono boost, is supposed to be ahead in the upgrades compared to the Terran. How you are you supposed to upgrade your ground attack/armor while also getting all of these necessary support upgrades as well? Where does the money come from? It's not surprising that Protoss are usually about equal to Terrans in upgrades; you just cannot pay to have all of the necessary upgrades, and a large army, with the money you have off of 2/3 base, and get it all in time. Or maybe you can, and Protoss build orders suck. I certainly don't know. I want to say that Protoss units just don't stack as well Marines and Marauders do, but Colossi obviously do. I don't know.
You hit the nail in the head with this post. I can't see anything I disagree with.
I think another reason protoss has been having so much trouble against terran lately is because they have all started using way more ghosts in their armies. Getting 8-10 ghosts makes it really hard for the protoss because if they micro properly they can EMP everything in the protoss army as well as HTs because of 9 range feedback versus 10 range EMP with a +2 radius making EMP 12 range at the edge of its radius. They can always EMP an HT before the HT can feedback. Basically the protoss has to resort to using warp prism HT drops just to get a storm off. With the warp prism being so fragile and the terran usually having vikings this can be very dangerous.
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Caldeum1976 Posts
Although I really like most of the changes and look forward to the patch, some of these I'm a little hesitant of. The blueflame change I think is an overreaction to the outcry after MLG, but I'm glad to see the fungal, overseer, and warpprism changes. I'm on the hedge with blink time increase and rax build time, but I at least see the reasoning behind each.
The change I really don't like is the ultralisk build time to 55sec from 70. A T3 unit builds 10 seconds slower than a terran T1 harass unit (reapers), not to mention you can make multiple ultras per hatch easily (and you should have many once you can make ultras), while reapers take tech labs per rax (which is a big investment early game terran). I definitely agree ultras build time was too long, but perhaps change it to 60 or 65seconds instead? Just eliminating a few seconds of build time changes everything.
PS I'm a random diamond player if you were wondering.
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^ Point taken, reaper build time should be reduced.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:00 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:47 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 02:43 fietstas wrote:
i like how they make the warp prism more viable, however i would like some more viability for the carrier/mothership (even with the acceleration buff), the focus of protoss is on robo / gateway right now, and any stargate units that do pop out are voidrays or phoenix. i think the main problem is that the main things that counter air units (vikings/corruptors) are also fantastic against colossi, but not against immortals and gateway units. while the range of counters to non-air units are alot larger.
also the blue flame hellion nerf was expected, the barracks build time is a bit weird but will probably not go through. The main issue for carriers (in my mind) is the build time. They take forever to get out, and they aren't good in small numbers (you need 4-6 for them to kick in). That leaves a huge window where your army is out a massive chunk of money (350/250 for a carrier) before you get a unit that doesn't do much without a bunch of them, so you're very vulnerable to enemy aggression in that period, unless you are way ahead, in which case: why are you making carriers? Its actually 450/250 per carrier. A carrier ships with 4 interceptors missing, for some reason.
Yeah, I forgot that little downside: not only do carriers take forever to get out, require massive upgrades to be useful (who upgrades their air before they transition? As if going heavy phoenix/void ray play works), but you also have to spend extra money on making the interceptors, which get killed easily and frequently when you use the carriers.
Fix them please >_<.
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Warp Prism buff may be a little overkill but P needs more harass/raids in their game, i support this.
Really?
The thing dies to anything instantly.
1 viking on a patrol route can kill it even if the prism has speed. That does not happen to a medivac.
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It's not that carriers need a buff for build time, it's more that the interceptor attack priority makes it a little bit more iffy than if carriers were higher priority, so that carriers can dish out the damage while still tanking.
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EPT
