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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 06 2011 21:38 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just realized that BFHellions will no longer two shot zerglings due to healing....
Zergling vs BFH will be completely dependent on upgrades now.
It will give the lings a higher chance of survival because most zergs get +1 carapace long before terrans get +1 vehicle weapons.
I believe they still do 2 shot lings. Correct me if im wrong, but base damage of hellions is 8 / 14 vs light. With the new preig, it is 19 vs light. Lings have 35 hp. Two bfh hits will do 38 damage, 36 damage with plus one armor on the lings which is still enough even with the instant one hp regen that zerg units get upon taking damage.
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On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:
[quote]
OMGOMGOMG
Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base .
I'm kind of flattered that there's this whole debate about punishing a FE from a Terran based off my one-liner.
Unfortunately I wasn't talking about a fast expansion.
I was talking about upgrading you pre-existing CC to an OC for MULEs. That is what puts a Terran ahead of a Zerg (hatch-first or not) through the first 10 minutes of play.
Anybody who thinks hatch-first should be punishable without major investment should also realize that an early orbital command should be equally as punishable. Both builds provide equal economies and should therefore be equally as risky.
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So when does the patch come out? It's taking forever?
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United States7483 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:
[quote]
OMGOMGOMG
Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base .
Right, that's what I said. If you turtle on 2 bases you're fine against hellions with good control and good play, but that ultra fast 3rd you took does nothing, you can't defend it, you can't drone at it, it's just a 300 mineral paperweight until later, meaning taking a super fast 3rd is not a good response to a terran FE. You can take a 3rd base after you've secured yourself vs hellions, but then you're not ahead on econ against terran as a way of punishing the fast cc from terran.
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On September 07 2011 04:50 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:
[quote]
I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . Right, that's what I said. If you turtle on 2 bases you're fine against hellions with good control and good play, but that ultra fast 3rd you took does nothing, you can't defend it, you can't drone at it, it's just a 300 mineral paperweight until later, meaning taking a super fast 3rd is not a good response to a terran FE. You can take a 3rd base after you've secured yourself vs hellions, but then you're not ahead on econ against terran as a way of punishing the fast cc from terran.
Well you are in the sense that the Terran on a lot of Maps has to do economical damage or he is behind automatically. If you shut that down atsa Zerg you just win on alot of Maps. If you don't do any damage with Helions you basically opened yourself up to huge Muta harrassment. If you go Helions you have to do some sort of damage with it. And i mean really invest in Helions not just 2-4 to secure some Mapcontrol . 2-4 Helions won't shut down a third hatch from Zerg.
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United States7483 Posts
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On September 07 2011 04:55 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:50 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
[quote]
And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command.
tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . Right, that's what I said. If you turtle on 2 bases you're fine against hellions with good control and good play, but that ultra fast 3rd you took does nothing, you can't defend it, you can't drone at it, it's just a 300 mineral paperweight until later, meaning taking a super fast 3rd is not a good response to a terran FE. You can take a 3rd base after you've secured yourself vs hellions, but then you're not ahead on econ against terran as a way of punishing the fast cc from terran. Well you are in the sense that the Terran on a lot of Maps has to do economical damage or he is behind automatically. If you shut that down atsa Zerg you just win on alot of Maps. If you don't do any damage with Helions you basically opened yourself up to huge Muta harrassment. If you go Helions you have to do some sort of damage with it. And i mean really invest in Helions not just 2-4 to secure some Mapcontrol . 2-4 Helions won't shut down a third hatch from Zerg.
Please watch Mvp play. He never does economic damage early but still always wins.
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On September 07 2011 05:12 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:55 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:50 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes.
You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . Right, that's what I said. If you turtle on 2 bases you're fine against hellions with good control and good play, but that ultra fast 3rd you took does nothing, you can't defend it, you can't drone at it, it's just a 300 mineral paperweight until later, meaning taking a super fast 3rd is not a good response to a terran FE. You can take a 3rd base after you've secured yourself vs hellions, but then you're not ahead on econ against terran as a way of punishing the fast cc from terran. Well you are in the sense that the Terran on a lot of Maps has to do economical damage or he is behind automatically. If you shut that down atsa Zerg you just win on alot of Maps. If you don't do any damage with Helions you basically opened yourself up to huge Muta harrassment. If you go Helions you have to do some sort of damage with it. And i mean really invest in Helions not just 2-4 to secure some Mapcontrol . 2-4 Helions won't shut down a third hatch from Zerg. Please watch Mvp play. He never does economic damage early but still always wins.
Not everyone can play like the best terran in the world bro.
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On September 07 2011 05:16 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:12 JJH777 wrote:On September 07 2011 04:55 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:50 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . Right, that's what I said. If you turtle on 2 bases you're fine against hellions with good control and good play, but that ultra fast 3rd you took does nothing, you can't defend it, you can't drone at it, it's just a 300 mineral paperweight until later, meaning taking a super fast 3rd is not a good response to a terran FE. You can take a 3rd base after you've secured yourself vs hellions, but then you're not ahead on econ against terran as a way of punishing the fast cc from terran. Well you are in the sense that the Terran on a lot of Maps has to do economical damage or he is behind automatically. If you shut that down atsa Zerg you just win on alot of Maps. If you don't do any damage with Helions you basically opened yourself up to huge Muta harrassment. If you go Helions you have to do some sort of damage with it. And i mean really invest in Helions not just 2-4 to secure some Mapcontrol . 2-4 Helions won't shut down a third hatch from Zerg. Please watch Mvp play. He never does economic damage early but still always wins. Not everyone can play like the best terran in the world bro.
Not everyone can play like the best zerg in the world either. He still beat him without really doing any eco damage.
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Against zerg, MVP does a lot of sort of "indirect" economic damage. You don't need to kill a lot of drones if you prevent the zerg from being able to make a lot of drones.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 07 2011 05:25 koppik wrote:
Against zerg, MVP does a lot of sort of "indirect" economic damage. You don't need to kill a lot of drones if you prevent the zerg from being able to make a lot of drones.
Making hellions and pressuring/poking with them does that too. Especially if you follow it up with a marine/siege tank push off of 2 bases while securing your 3rd.
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Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base .
You know, I don't think BFH are at all imbalanced (holy shit the upgrade is 150/150, that's more expensive than a banshee), but getting roaches early on as Zerg really hurts your economy. As in it's game breakingly bad, as in you'll pretty much autolose if the Terran is actually going 1 rax expand into siege tank timing push, or otherwise macro style (and you thought he was doing some BFH rush). You will literally be down at least 10 drones by making a roach warren and just 3 roaches. I would say you would be down about 10-20 supply as well from normal, when you should be around 44 supply (and morphing lair or taking your third), but roaches take up a lot of supply.
So. You know, it's just not right to say "Zerg can just make roaches and be safe' or "just don't drone so hard el oh el". Zerg needs to pump drones to stay even, not to get ahead. Zerg gets ahead in macro by taking a fast third and saturating it super fast, and just stays even when saturating + teching on 2 bases.
If you don't believe me, just try making 5 roaches in a ZvT against a Terran who does, say, just a reactor hellion expand (much less a CC first or 1 rax FE or reaper expand). You'll pretty much autolose to a Terran who just masses up on 2 base, 3 base, or a siege tank timing push.
Again, I'd just like to point out that I don't think BFH are broken or anything. The huge cost in them is sooo expensive, it's practically an all-in if Terran fails to kill less than 10 drones. Even if you get into Zerg's base, if you kill 15 drones and lose your hellions your just even. Mech, on the other hand, is a horrible ZvT build, but it relies solely on BFH harass setting Zerg back and winning with essentially a timing push before Broodlords.
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On September 07 2011 04:27 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 21:38 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just realized that BFHellions will no longer two shot zerglings due to healing....
Zergling vs BFH will be completely dependent on upgrades now.
It will give the lings a higher chance of survival because most zergs get +1 carapace long before terrans get +1 vehicle weapons. I believe they still do 2 shot lings. Correct me if im wrong, but base damage of hellions is 8 / 14 vs light. With the new preig, it is 19 vs light. Lings have 35 hp. Two bfh hits will do 38 damage, 36 damage with plus one armor on the lings which is still enough even with the instant one hp regen that zerg units get upon taking damage.
Sorry I overestimated healing.
But thanks for pointing that out.
I guess you would need +2 carapace, but that would be a bit too late in the game where better counters to hellions already exist.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2011 13:43 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . You know, I don't think BFH are at all imbalanced (holy shit the upgrade is 150/150, that's more expensive than a banshee), but getting roaches early on as Zerg really hurts your economy. As in it's game breakingly bad, as in you'll pretty much autolose if the Terran is actually going 1 rax expand into siege tank timing push, or otherwise macro style (and you thought he was doing some BFH rush). You will literally be down at least 10 drones by making a roach warren and just 3 roaches. I would say you would be down about 10-20 supply as well from normal, when you should be around 44 supply (and morphing lair or taking your third), but roaches take up a lot of supply. So. You know, it's just not right to say "Zerg can just make roaches and be safe' or "just don't drone so hard el oh el". Zerg needs to pump drones to stay even, not to get ahead. Zerg gets ahead in macro by taking a fast third and saturating it super fast, and just stays even when saturating + teching on 2 bases. If you don't believe me, just try making 5 roaches in a ZvT against a Terran who does, say, just a reactor hellion expand (much less a CC first or 1 rax FE or reaper expand). You'll pretty much autolose to a Terran who just masses up on 2 base, 3 base, or a siege tank timing push. Again, I'd just like to point out that I don't think BFH are broken or anything. The huge cost in them is sooo expensive, it's practically an all-in if Terran fails to kill less than 10 drones. Even if you get into Zerg's base, if you kill 15 drones and lose your hellions your just even. Mech, on the other hand, is a horrible ZvT build, but it relies solely on BFH harass setting Zerg back and winning with essentially a timing push before Broodlords.
So true, it's tiring to hear "just make roaches", it is a big investment in the early game where every drone is important to keep up in economy against the terran. If the terran went blue flame or made 5-6 hellions and you made 3 or 4 roaches and deny any damage it might be worth nit, but if you misread and they only make 4 to take map control you are behind in tech and economy, plus you can't really retake map control because if you push out with roaches the terran can just run around them unless you invest in spines crawlers or more roaches.
Nothing wrong with that, but please stop saying it's easy to stop.
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On September 07 2011 17:46 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2011 13:43 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . You know, I don't think BFH are at all imbalanced (holy shit the upgrade is 150/150, that's more expensive than a banshee), but getting roaches early on as Zerg really hurts your economy. As in it's game breakingly bad, as in you'll pretty much autolose if the Terran is actually going 1 rax expand into siege tank timing push, or otherwise macro style (and you thought he was doing some BFH rush). You will literally be down at least 10 drones by making a roach warren and just 3 roaches. I would say you would be down about 10-20 supply as well from normal, when you should be around 44 supply (and morphing lair or taking your third), but roaches take up a lot of supply. So. You know, it's just not right to say "Zerg can just make roaches and be safe' or "just don't drone so hard el oh el". Zerg needs to pump drones to stay even, not to get ahead. Zerg gets ahead in macro by taking a fast third and saturating it super fast, and just stays even when saturating + teching on 2 bases. If you don't believe me, just try making 5 roaches in a ZvT against a Terran who does, say, just a reactor hellion expand (much less a CC first or 1 rax FE or reaper expand). You'll pretty much autolose to a Terran who just masses up on 2 base, 3 base, or a siege tank timing push. Again, I'd just like to point out that I don't think BFH are broken or anything. The huge cost in them is sooo expensive, it's practically an all-in if Terran fails to kill less than 10 drones. Even if you get into Zerg's base, if you kill 15 drones and lose your hellions your just even. Mech, on the other hand, is a horrible ZvT build, but it relies solely on BFH harass setting Zerg back and winning with essentially a timing push before Broodlords. So true, it's tiring to hear "just make roaches", it is a big investment in the early game where every drone is important to keep up in economy against the terran. If the terran went blue flame or made 5-6 hellions and you made 3 or 4 roaches and deny any damage it might be worth nit, but if you misread and they only make 4 to take map control you are behind in tech and economy, plus you can't really retake map control because if you push out with roaches the terran can just run around them unless you invest in spines crawlers or more roaches. Nothing wrong with that, but please stop saying it's easy to stop.
To be fair, if you notice that the terran is overcommitting to his harassment or is being exceptionally greedy you have the option to punish it with a roach bust.
Roaches suck versus terran on the whole but they can make them sweat a little.
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^ That only works if Terran doesn't make bunkers or siege tanks (which does happen, a lot, don't get me wrong). My point is that droning up is much safer than making a ton of roaches, it's not like the other races. Like if you make 7 roaches before lair, when most Zerg are at 50 supply getting a lair and had defended with queens and a spine or two, you'll be around 40 supply, without lair, and 14 of that supply is units that are extremely imbalanced in terms of supply (i dont mean imba imba, I mean roaches are really worth 1 supply, but cost 2 as a balance, so when Zerg is up 20 supply, if it's in roaches, it's not accurate, if you didnt know that already). Which translates to Terran reaching 80 supply if he opened macro or FE and you made 7 roaches and are on 50-60 supply.
Roaches are appropriate against double reactor hellion or BFH, but otherwise you will be behind if you make them, even against the very popular reactor hellion. Which can be difficult for Zerg to gauge. It's not really safer if you are hurting your economy so much that you'll die for sure later on, or will have to sac 10 drones for 10 more units to stave a push that should be easier if you had, say, baneling speed when it came.
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Roaches used only defensively will make you behind eco-wise against standard reactor hellion expo.
But if you use them to pressure the terran a little you gain valuable scouting information. You should be able to scout banshee or regular tank marine and prepare accordingly.
They also give you back map control so nothing forbid you to take an early third if your opponent is not getting banshees and that will make up for the eco loss.
Then use low tech ling roach bane with good creep spread (which can't be denied by hellion if you have roaches) to hold the first push.
The only openings which roaches are really bad against are 2 starport banshee (lair tech and mutas will be very late) and bio expand (marine maraudeur) into heavy drop.
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On September 07 2011 05:12 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:55 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:50 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:15 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:
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In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes.
You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted). Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base . Right, that's what I said. If you turtle on 2 bases you're fine against hellions with good control and good play, but that ultra fast 3rd you took does nothing, you can't defend it, you can't drone at it, it's just a 300 mineral paperweight until later, meaning taking a super fast 3rd is not a good response to a terran FE. You can take a 3rd base after you've secured yourself vs hellions, but then you're not ahead on econ against terran as a way of punishing the fast cc from terran. Well you are in the sense that the Terran on a lot of Maps has to do economical damage or he is behind automatically. If you shut that down atsa Zerg you just win on alot of Maps. If you don't do any damage with Helions you basically opened yourself up to huge Muta harrassment. If you go Helions you have to do some sort of damage with it. And i mean really invest in Helions not just 2-4 to secure some Mapcontrol . 2-4 Helions won't shut down a third hatch from Zerg. Please watch Mvp play. He never does economic damage early but still always wins.
I just saw those games and it seems to me that Barracks build time does not seem to be a problem. Terran seems to just have too many eco advantages. For e.g. in game 2 MVP just bunker rushed for the heck of it. There is absolutely no risk in that maneuver. It seems that a strategy which gets a free win if things go well and puts opponent back a bit slightly if things don't go well should have some element of risk to it. Maybe increasing bunker salvage time might be a good tradeoff so that it gives the defender a chance to kill the bunker before it gets salvaged. Even making salvage a research might fix this. This will increase the risk of that strat.
It seems that direct nerf of building times and units will just make some other race seem overpowered when an already delicate balance has been achieved during mid game.
Blizzard just needs to make all these early game all ins more risky to do than just disable them. I want to still see a well executed 1-1-1, push a protoss against the wall, if unscouted. What I don't want to see is a follow up push winning it. A first failed 1-1-1 all-in with 20 SCVs pulled should really mean an all-in i.e. if it fails Terran should insta lose and gg.
Right now there is no tension for the terran players during all these early all-ins since if it fails they can follow it up with another one or expand and play normally without any repercussions whatsoever.
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The more I think about it the more i think i like this patch:
BFH not THAT much of a nerf vs Z or P, because 3+ hellion run by or drops will roast mineral lines and BF + 1 attack upgrade and their back to 2 shoting workers, still worth it vs zerglings and maybe even zeolots when going mech. it's more of a nerf in TvT because even with an attack upgrade BFH will take 3 shots to kill SCVs which is good because TvT is now being domnitated by BFHs roasting 100 workers and no player having more than 25 workers in late game.
Immortal buff is good, makes it mesh MUCH better in a protoss army and we'll see more of them, awsome.
I was skeptical about the blink nerf because blink never came across as OP vs Z, but after listenig to pro toss players talk about how PvP mid game is decided by who gets blink first i'm happy for this nerf because it'll open up a variety of mid game tech options for PvP, always a good thing.
Warp Prism buff may be a little overkill but P needs more harass/raids in their game, i support this.
Barracks nerf sucks, but as Z I always get so mad at how T can 2 rax rush EVERY game and either win the game outright or just expand and continue the game just fine. this needed to be addressed somehow and i don't think it's nearly as bad as most T think.
Infestor nerf is neglible TBH, he problem with the infestor is that it is very powerful and it has to be very powerful because it is the zerg's backbone, like the marine. it may not happen in HoTS but I hope the Infestor (and the marine as well while i'm at it) will be adjusted to act as a buffer to thezerg army and compliment other zerg units rather than being the core of the army.
Ultra buff is good in situtions where Z re-maxes on ultras after a big fight, still won't make the ultra a btter unit due to it's size/pathing, cost and how royally raped they are by VRs, Immortals, Marauders and ghost snipe.
overseer buff is great :D
in the future i'm hoping to see some more love for the corruptors, Hydras and Carriers 
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EPT
