|
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 07 2011 00:51 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 00:48 Rampoon wrote:On September 07 2011 00:33 Sunrunner wrote:
Good vid. Actually seeing the new HSM in action is terrifying. I have a feeling a damage nerf may be coming, down the line. Yes because now we can just spam it from our fleets of uber cheap, fast, strong ravens that we have kept alive for the 15 hours it takes to get 125 energy and then drop the bomb that will kill 10 tiny units with its gigantic aoe range and no damage fall off at all. Its not like you can remove the targeted unit from a group or run it into the terran army to cause damage to them.......oh wait. Yeah, this will not change a thing. Stop ranting for a unit which is already very good. If nothing else, this will put the focus on the raven a bit more, and help nudge terrans to spend more time experimenting with it. You don't make a fleet of ravens, you make a couple. and if you don't think one missile which can potentially kill 15 banelings or a cluster of mutalisks is strong, then you need to play this game a tad more 
Except the only Zerg units that can't outrun a seeker missile are unupgraded roaches, drones, broodlords, infestors, and queens (on creep). Infestors can fungal or neural before they get there, roaches will likely have speed upgrades, and queens and broodlords don't clump up a lot. We're left with an extremely expensive spell that can guarantee a drone kill...
The problem with HSM has always been how expensive they are to get for, what is essentially, a defensive spell. You can't go gallivanting with ravens hoping to push a front or harass a base since they're slow, extremely expensive, and their defense oriented spells are best behind the front lines. Meanwhile, Terran has always been good defensively with Thors, tanks, bunkers, turrets, vikings, etc.
Furthermore, we can't use them a lot in TvP since HTs and blink stalkers CRUSH them. They can't be used in TvZ because Z units are STILL faster, thus requires your opponent to have a lapse in concentration to use. The only matchup this MIGHT cause a stir in is TvT, but even that is farfetched since, again, it is trying to fill a role already accomplished cheaper by tanks and thors.
Maybe if the change somehow differentiated seeker missiles in the way of ALWAYS hitting the target unless it burrows away, cloaks, or blinks, or if it had non-diminishing splash damage (like every other race has mind you), then it would be worth considering. Right now, and after the patch, it will always be a BM gamble that you use to insult your opponent more than turn the tide of battle.
EDIT: seeker missiles can also hit overlords/seers.
|
On September 07 2011 00:48 Rampoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 00:33 Sunrunner wrote:
Good vid. Actually seeing the new HSM in action is terrifying. I have a feeling a damage nerf may be coming, down the line. Yes because now we can just spam it from our fleets of uber cheap, fast, strong ravens that we have kept alive for the 15 hours it takes to get 125 energy and then drop the bomb that will kill 10 tiny units with its gigantic aoe range and no damage fall off at all. Its not like you can remove the targeted unit from a group or run it into the terran army to cause damage to them.......oh wait. Yeah, this will not change a thing.
Actually the hunter seeker missle speed increase will greatly change late game TvT. Usually it becomes mass vikings on both sides, and then both side make ravens for pdd, which is amazing at nullifying viking volleys. Then they add hunter seeker and try to get some nice explosions on the clumped enemy air ball. Now the missle is faster than both of those air units, as well as BCs, and will promote epic raven sacrifices to get off a missle that will take out half of their army. It's going to turn those boring air standoffs into unbelievably tense and exciting matches.
|
On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO.
In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2011 00:10 Cognizance wrote:For those who haven't been on the PTR, I've made a compilation video showcasing the patch changes in 1.4
Very very cool video. I'd like to see how these changes affect immortals vs roaches, standard 3gate blink stalker vs 2gate immortals, and if it significantly increases the number of overseers people make.
|
immortal range increase is good as they always get stuck behind the protoss arc, but it'll be even better if they can shoot up. Plus throw in a ground to air hunter seeker missle, they may start to rival the imba infestors! 
|
On September 07 2011 03:24 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 00:48 Rampoon wrote:On September 07 2011 00:33 Sunrunner wrote:
Good vid. Actually seeing the new HSM in action is terrifying. I have a feeling a damage nerf may be coming, down the line. Yes because now we can just spam it from our fleets of uber cheap, fast, strong ravens that we have kept alive for the 15 hours it takes to get 125 energy and then drop the bomb that will kill 10 tiny units with its gigantic aoe range and no damage fall off at all. Its not like you can remove the targeted unit from a group or run it into the terran army to cause damage to them.......oh wait. Yeah, this will not change a thing. Actually the hunter seeker missle speed increase will greatly change late game TvT. Usually it becomes mass vikings on both sides, and then both side make ravens for pdd, which is amazing at nullifying viking volleys. Then they add hunter seeker and try to get some nice explosions on the clumped enemy air ball. Now the missle is faster than both of those air units, as well as BCs, and will promote epic raven sacrifices to get off a missle that will take out half of their army. It's going to turn those boring air standoffs into unbelievably tense and exciting matches.
I don't know if Blizzards intent is to make Ravens and BC's TvT only units ( which they basically are right now unless for 1/1/1 ) . Escecially TvP right now is just a stupid matchup because every game basically has the same unit composition in lategame situations MMM/Ghosts/Vikings vs Gateway/Colossus/HT/Archon . All other Terran Units are just bad in lategame vs Protoss in most cases .
|
Alright, I've played 100 or so games on PTR (placed gold - promoted to diamond) and this is what I've seen. Played Zerg and Toss..
Warp Prisms : 1
Motherships: none
Immortals : every PvP (I typically see 1 gate robo 3 immortal collosus pushes)
Ravens: A few late game but HSM has not come into play once)
3 gate blink: none
3 bunker rush: defended 2 of 3
Other stuff: Lot more overseers while playing toss, fungal still good, 80% of time PvT I saw 111, not a single ultra
Biggest difference has been the amount of immortals
|
On September 07 2011 03:30 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:24 Fig wrote:On September 07 2011 00:48 Rampoon wrote:On September 07 2011 00:33 Sunrunner wrote:
Good vid. Actually seeing the new HSM in action is terrifying. I have a feeling a damage nerf may be coming, down the line. Yes because now we can just spam it from our fleets of uber cheap, fast, strong ravens that we have kept alive for the 15 hours it takes to get 125 energy and then drop the bomb that will kill 10 tiny units with its gigantic aoe range and no damage fall off at all. Its not like you can remove the targeted unit from a group or run it into the terran army to cause damage to them.......oh wait. Yeah, this will not change a thing. Actually the hunter seeker missle speed increase will greatly change late game TvT. Usually it becomes mass vikings on both sides, and then both side make ravens for pdd, which is amazing at nullifying viking volleys. Then they add hunter seeker and try to get some nice explosions on the clumped enemy air ball. Now the missle is faster than both of those air units, as well as BCs, and will promote epic raven sacrifices to get off a missle that will take out half of their army. It's going to turn those boring air standoffs into unbelievably tense and exciting matches. I don't know if Blizzards intent is to make Ravens and BC's TvT only units ( which they basically are right now unless for 1/1/1 ) . Escecially TvP right now is just a stupid matchup because every game basically has the same unit composition in lategame situations MMM/Ghosts/Vikings vs Gateway/Colossus/HT/Archon . All other Terran Units are just bad in lategame vs Protoss in most cases .
After the patch, as soon as the viking fleets engage each other, the vikings will try to automatically unclump and spread out, so you will no longer have thors or seeker missiles hitting every single viking in one shot. the dynamic of air battles could change quite a bit.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes.
You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe.
|
On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe.
A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 07 2011 03:30 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:24 Fig wrote:On September 07 2011 00:48 Rampoon wrote:On September 07 2011 00:33 Sunrunner wrote:
Good vid. Actually seeing the new HSM in action is terrifying. I have a feeling a damage nerf may be coming, down the line. Yes because now we can just spam it from our fleets of uber cheap, fast, strong ravens that we have kept alive for the 15 hours it takes to get 125 energy and then drop the bomb that will kill 10 tiny units with its gigantic aoe range and no damage fall off at all. Its not like you can remove the targeted unit from a group or run it into the terran army to cause damage to them.......oh wait. Yeah, this will not change a thing. Actually the hunter seeker missle speed increase will greatly change late game TvT. Usually it becomes mass vikings on both sides, and then both side make ravens for pdd, which is amazing at nullifying viking volleys. Then they add hunter seeker and try to get some nice explosions on the clumped enemy air ball. Now the missle is faster than both of those air units, as well as BCs, and will promote epic raven sacrifices to get off a missle that will take out half of their army. It's going to turn those boring air standoffs into unbelievably tense and exciting matches. I don't know if Blizzards intent is to make Ravens and BC's TvT only units ( which they basically are right now unless for 1/1/1 ) . Escecially TvP right now is just a stupid matchup because every game basically has the same unit composition in lategame situations MMM/Ghosts/Vikings vs Gateway/Colossus/HT/Archon . All other Terran Units are just bad in lategame vs Protoss in most cases .
All other protoss units are terrible against bio. Let's not blame it on terran units being bad. And no, I don't think mech is actually that bad against protoss, as long as you play it carefully. Sky terran can be quite powerful too, I just lost a very long macro game on shakuras where the terran player went marine/viking/banshee/raven and I tried to beat it with stalker/colossi/phoenix. It was kind of a crazy match to be honest =p. Still though, it's really map dependant. I think mech+ghosts (when the ghosts are used properly) can be exceptionally good against toss on the right maps (like metalopolis where there are only two attack paths). Just ask GoOdy. If you have great ghost control, just watch toss try to deal with your thors when he can't feedback due to snipes/emp. It's just a much harder style to play and learn well than bio, and it's not really necessary to learn it (yet anyway, metagame might shift that way eventually).Blue Flame Hellions own zealots in big battles btw (even after the nerf they will, AoE is good yo), which is the biggest problem with bio play (heavy armor zealots with guardian shield just don't die to marine/marauder balls quickly).
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of.
The issue is scouting it, which you can't do a lot of the time until he moves out. You never really know if he's doing a tech build or built a C.C. unless you get lucky with an overlord (good luck vs. marines) or sneak some lings in. To be honest, the real problem against terran is how hard it is to scout them, and how easily they can scout you.
Also, you won't be able to drone up quite that quickly if you just instantly double expand, and if you do, you won't have any units when the push does come. Mules are pretty good >_<.
|
On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of.
You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame.
|
On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame.
Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions.
|
I'm pretty sure the main reason HSM exists is for mutas (and possibly burrowed banelings), just like radiate on the science vessel in BW.
We've seen it in the GSL recently, and I've experienced it a lot - when you have a huge flock of mutas, and even thors and missile turrets aren't enough, a raven is needed. Sometimes, it's necessary, and many times, it will turn a dominating game led by mutas into a shattered loss for Zerg. I don't think there's any spell that is so situational, but so dramatic at the same time. It has the same range as mutas, it's a no brainer!
I don't know if I like the buff though. I would have maybe preferred to lower the energy cost on it or something, but I guess mutas can still outrun it so micro is still involved.
|
On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame.
Well Helions won't kill the expansion by themselves . If you get spines / some Roaches before you man your expand you should be pretty save . TvZ is pretty Map depended on some Maps its hard for Terran to play a macrogame ( almost impossible if you don't do any early damage ) against Zerg some other Maps are bad for Zerg .
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions.
Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted).
|
On September 07 2011 04:07 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. Right, he gets the base down. It just sits there as a 300 mineral paperweight for quite a while, but he gets the hatch. You can't drone 3 bases while there are blue flame hellions poking around, you are either making units to deny the hellions, or you're droning 1-2 bases while turtling with spine crawlers (or getting your drones roasted).
Getting some Roaches while Droning up doesn't hurt much it's not like the Zerg needs to only Drone. If you shut down blueflame Helions completely ( its not that hard on 2 bases with good building placement ) the Terran is behind even if you are on even Base and give the Zerg enough of a time window to Macro Up and saturate his third Base .
|
On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe.
You can't punish for fast expanding, because they can build it at no risk(in base). Its the power of terran, no risk in the early game. Because by the time your opponent finds out, its to late. Or if they blindly assume your fast expanding, you can just fly it away and power toward some units.
Zerg and Protoss - they get to lose their expansion. Terran, they can wait until the mules pay for it.
|
On September 07 2011 04:01 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Yes, that's one of the responses. You can't deny the third with hellions. On September 07 2011 04:06 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 03:57 Toadvine wrote:On September 07 2011 03:47 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:45 Whitewing wrote:On September 07 2011 03:24 s3rp wrote:On September 07 2011 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 07 2011 02:48 drgoats wrote:On September 06 2011 00:06 zergrushkekeke wrote:On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf. OMGOMGOMG Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks. I like bunker rushes. I think they are good for the game. Having the ability to harass Zerg early with them can lead to exciting early games instead of the same monotonous builds every game. Zerg should be punished for taking a quick hatch anyway. BTW, I play Zerg. And Terran should be punished for making a quick Orbital Command. tit-for-tat IMO. In TvZ it's pretty easy to punish the Terran for expanding too fast. TvP well in most cases the Protoss can't but has nothing to do with bunkerrushes. You can't punish him for making the CC then letting it sit behind his wall while he uses it for extra mules, then moves it out the moment it is safe. A Zerg can just double expand and the Terran will not be able to do anything about it . If you expand as a Terran you will have to defend . Yes you probably will not be killed off instantly but a good Zerg will exploit the fact you are expanding expands just more and in most cases very spread out so you just can't kill them all of. You really think a Zerg can take a fast third against something like a reactor Hellion expand? The reason Terrans expand off Hellions, is that it makes them immune to any pressure/all-in that doesn't involve Roaches, which aren't particularly hard to defend against with just Marines and Bunkers. Plus, you can deny any attempt at taking a third until speed is done at the very least, and much longer if you get more Hellions and Blue Flame. Well Helions won't kill the expansion by themselves . If you get spines / some Roaches before you man your expand you should be pretty save . TvZ is pretty Map depended on some Maps its hard for Terran to play a macrogame ( almost impossible if you don't do any early damage ) against Zerg some other Maps are bad for Zerg .
Assuming the Zerg manages to hide/sneak out a Drone (which I never see happen against good players btw.), taking that third makes him super vulnerable to any harass or pressure that comes before mutas. Like, the Terran sees a third, does the Slayers Marine/BFH elevator into the main, and the Zerg dies. Or he just kills the third with marines, it's not like the Zerg can defend it with speedlings.
And if you try to expand behind Roaches, and Spine up to defend against Hellions, the Terran can roll you over with a 2 base timing, whether marine/tank or just pure bio. It's not worth it and you rarely see Zergs take a fast third in high-level games against Hellions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
