EPT4 hellion drop, you can lose 2 hellions and still wreck. now you can only afford to lose 1.
"bfh is obsolete now
".... not even.Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 194
| Forum Index > Closed |
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
4 hellion drop, you can lose 2 hellions and still wreck. now you can only afford to lose 1. "bfh is obsolete now ".... not even. | ||
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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
On August 26 2011 20:43 features wrote: Wrong, wrong and wrong. Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush. he's clearly not a toss player, no toss would believe that to be any kind of a buff. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 27 2011 04:40 ContactKilla wrote: Thank you fuckin god. This is exactly what people need. Dont nerf the hells, build a fuckin roach you nubs User was warned for this post Oh fuck, I hope the HotS harass unit for Protoss is just as fast and cheap, and easy to use as hellions. Hope it also gives guaranteed damage, maybe 2 of those can eradicate a mineral line in 5 seconds, just like BFH. Than, when you start bitching and QQing, every protoss user can just tell you "build 2 bunkers per mineral line, you nub". | ||
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Buzerio
United Kingdom135 Posts
the protoss changes seem to be based around developing PvP past 4gate/Blink Stalker | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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Buzerio
United Kingdom135 Posts
On August 27 2011 08:30 springtree wrote: I'm amazed that people think Blizz bases their decision on whine or on SOTG or whatever. Blizz almost certainly keep a track record of every single unit killed in a ladder game, and by what unit it was killed, or rather, how much damage every unit does on average, how many units are made on average per game, divided into rankings (GM vs M etc). They know how many infestors are made on average, and how many are made on average for won games versus how many made for lost games. Ask any developer of any software about usage analysis and you'll see that the cute little app you use to write your grocery list on your smart phone does exactly the same thing. It records and sends the data about every single tap you make to the developers to give them a sense of what features are being used and not. You might think Blizz doesn't have the capacity to record every single click you do in a game, but it's not like they're not doing so openly (replays, APM, etc). The replay system is simply an interface on top of a system that does a lot more than just make replays. That, and ultra top pro level tournament statistics, which unless I'm confused are pretty evenly spread across races, are more likely to affect Blizzard decisions on game changes than the number of (race) tears they get thrown at them. As for the argument that basing the game on the top 3% of the users is bad, that's obviously what they have to do. In all but the very top tier of players, no amount of balancing the game is going to make a game perfectly balanced, because the two players will always be different levels in skill, more or less. For argument's sake, let's say zerg is extremely overpowered to the point of ridicule. A bronze level zerg player manages to enter gold simply because zerg is so god damned overpowered. A plat zerg hits master. His skill level identical to that of any other plat. Then what? He is in master league facing off superior opponents who macro, micro, and decide far better than he does. Does it matter that he's overpowered at this point? No. He's at a rank he's not supposed to be, and that's all. Once you hit top tier, the players' skill levels plane out towards some form of equilibrium. At this point, if the game isn't balanced, our friend the master zerg might eventually push his way up into (and beyond) GM. At this point though, he's top 3%, and thus subject to the scrutiny of the balancing. Pardon the blab. altough I agree with you, I think that SotG may have had some influence, to get the ideas from pros, compare it to the statistics they gather and other sources to see if its a good idea, I dalt they just do what SotG says, but I think they take it into account but yeah, people who dont think Blizz tracks things are stupid, every FPS game worth noting tracks where deaths are on maps and gets heatmaps based on it to get information about how people play there game for future maps. Burnout Paradise had a heatmap to show where people spent most of there in-game time so they could make more places that are attractive to the player, how people can think that what they do isnt being tracked is beyond me. | ||
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RaMto
Australia18 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On August 27 2011 09:57 Buzerio wrote: the infestor nerf is perfect, its only a nerf by 6 damage (36 (+30%(46)) ~ 30 (40) 7 actually, as it was 47. 36×1.3=46.8, round off (up here) as opposed to round down. Blizzard just called it 30% because it's simpler than and close enough to 30.555%. A lot of people assumed it was 48 (which would actually be 33.33%) and thought that armour affected it, making it 47 vs armoured units with 1 armour, but it's a spell, so of course it ignores armour.  My thoughts: -General- ¤ Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. [This just seems good in general, but particularly for PvP as discussed by many] PROTOSS -Immortal- ¤ Attack range increased from 5 to 6. [In my opinion, they need to EITHER have more shields so that they can absorb 2-3 more shots from tanks, thors, marauders, colossi, ultralisks and roaches and be better front-line damage absorbers OR they need 6 instead of 5 range so that they can shoot alongside and behind some stalkers, instead of being powerful but not hard enough to take down and hence vulnerable while sitting ahead of the stalkers with their current 5 range. Due to their massive damage output, I think making them a little more resilient so that roaches can't get remove their tremendous vs armoured damage from battle as easily would have been the better choice, seeing as 6:4 range won't always prevent roaches getting closer. Force field also comes into this though, of course. Giving them 6 range doesn't make Neural Parasite vs them any harder, although I don't think that actually needs to change. Either is fine though, so if it goes through, the extra change will be good and help them to be a even more of a valid choice instead of colossi for dealing with roaches. -Mothership- ¤ Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. ¤ The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate the "Mothership Lag" issue when a Mothership comes online. [That's a very large acceleration buff, but the Mothership's acceleration definitely needed an increase, so we'll just have to see if this turns out to be a good amount or too much. Lag fix is great and 25 units per second is still extremely quick.] -Stalker- ¤ Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. [Helps to ensure blink stalker pushes are a little easier to deal with, mainly a change to PvP to help prevent 4gate, Blink Stalker and Fast Colossus builds from making it only a boring matchup. This change weakens 1 gate blink stalker rushes (get 3-4 gates but have only 1 until the blink upgrade has begun) The previous balance patch made Archons massive so that they could break force fields in PvP; Blizzard are trying to ensure the mirror matches are versatile and interesting too] -Warp Prism- ¤ Shields increased from 40 to 100. [YES! They do't need to be cheaper, just more durable! Shuttles had 80 shields/60HP, these had 40 shields/100HP, now they're just more durable at 100shields/100HP. They're still not going to be too hard to take down, hopefully now less protoss will whinge about 200 minerals 0 gas being too much of an investment. :/ ] TERRAN -Barracks- ¤ Build time increased from 60 to 65. [Helps to make rushes a tad weaker; Spawning Pools and Gateways were already 65 so I see no reason why barracks should ever have been faster to construct, but Blizzard will fix that too now. ^_^] -Hellion- ¤ Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. [BALANCE! YES! Now it WILL still take 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2, which is fair, because while vultures killed them in two, they didn't deal line splash damage. A +1 upgrade for Vehicle Weapons will make it 2 shots again vs drones and probes though (still 3 against SCVs). People complaining that this is too much of a nerf are being ridiculous. The upgrade is still extremely useful against various units, zerglings in particular. Roaches don't even kill hellions that quickly if the hellions aren't just stupidly left next to them without retreating and spines would need more like 8 range to hit hellions from enough distance in order to prevent hellions from dealing more than sufficient damage before dying (assuming we're talking about ~2 per base), so hellions are still very useful with this change.] -Raven- ¤ Seeker Missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. [This is almost like Blizzard saying: "Terrans should get their detectors. Don't be daft, terrans. Here, we'll make it so that Seeker DOES catch any units that aren't really fast! Now get them!" Fair enough, as it can be devastating, but does cost 125 energy. Now it is scary again. Burrowing the single targetted unit while the group of the same units are still at some distance from the Seeker Missile might be a good defence for zerg, to ensure it only hits one] ZERG -Infestor- ¤ Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% vs armored [47 total]) to 30 (40 vs Armored). [Good! It's now still a little stronger vs armoured, but much weaker vs armoured than it was since 1.3.0. Too many terrans and some protoss would not shut up about infestors killing everything with Fungal Growth, when really the terran need to just split their marines, as 3 marines are terrible value for zerg to kill with 75 energy, it's really a great trade for terran. This change means that the armoured units aren't as heavily hurt as before, but it's still JUST enough to kill Stalkers and Roaches in the same number as hits as when FG dealt 47 to armoured, which is 4 Fungals, but now Marauders need to be hit by 4 instead of 3, which I agree with.] -Overseer- ¤ Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. ¤ Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. [Woot! Now we can actually afford to maintain detection vs a protoss army with a Mothership! Hoping to Neural Parasite the Mothership actually seemed like the only reliable option before, but now we can get overseers for half the gas. The energy change for Contaminate means that for the same gas cost, you can now contaminate more, but you will need to use more larva to get that amount and each one will take longer to be able to use it again] -Ultralisk- ¤ Build time decreased from 70 to 55. [70 never seemed like too long for Reavers in BW, 80 WAS for Scouts though. 70 for Ultralisks in BW seemed fine, but somehow it's really really bad in SCII. Thors are 60, but really, part of the reason ultras felt terrible after whatever last balance change that changed them a little was this long build time. I'm not sure if 55 will be too short or not, but it seems a good number to have chosen] | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On August 27 2011 11:43 peidongyang wrote: Instead of nerfing fungal damage, which doesnt decrease shots to kill workers and marines, why not make the casting range shorter? Like 6 or 7 instead of 9? That would probably make them underpowered. It would be a huge TvZ change, and TvZ isn't exactly Z-favored; 6 range on FG might actually break the matchup. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Marines can spread and then gun down infestors and FG for 75 energy is not good value for energy when it only hits ~3 marines without necessarily even hitting them. Good change. | ||
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
this is shit wtf people dont know how to make a roach so they nerf helions do me a favor and go watch IdrA vs Morrow Finals of IEM, soon after SC2's release. They nerfed reapers soon after that final. And you know why, because reapers forced roaches, there was no way you could play ZvT without getting roaches vs them, and going roaches in ZvT put you at an immediate disadvantage because they were pre-buff and roaches are AWFUL vs bio terran. So why not make roaches to deal with BF hellions? the same reason, but so much more. Hellions can easily run by roaches and roast workers. with four hellions you need 10 roaches. and even then 2 can get by and kill drones. and then guess what, you made 250 gas worth of useless roaches and they stopped making hellions after four. or they keep making hellions and they get either tanks or drop ships and take SUPER easy bases. Hellion nerf is so that you dont need an obscene amount of roaches to defend hellions, because if just TWO get by, you lose drones. Now it takes three hellions. this means 5 less roaches which is a faster lair by a minute or a half, which i s ahuge deal, and its also 125 gas, which is also a huge deal. Having to spend 100 extra minerals so you can one shot workers is not a big deal. give me a break. | ||
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mburke05
United States130 Posts
On August 27 2011 09:17 IVN wrote: Oh fuck, I hope the HotS harass unit for Protoss is just as fast and cheap, and easy to use as hellions. Hope it also gives guaranteed damage, maybe 2 of those can eradicate a mineral line in 5 seconds, just like BFH. Than, when you start bitching and QQing, every protoss user can just tell you "build 2 bunkers per mineral line, you nub". I'd be ok with that if my siege tanks walked up and down cliffs and fired while moving, required no intelligent control, and shared upgrades with my marines. Oh wait.. | ||
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Terrifyer
United States338 Posts
On August 27 2011 12:31 MinimalistSC2 wrote: do me a favor and go watch IdrA vs Morrow Finals of IEM, soon after SC2's release. They nerfed reapers soon after that final. And you know why, because reapers forced roaches, there was no way you could play ZvT without getting roaches vs them, and going roaches in ZvT put you at an immediate disadvantage because they were pre-buff and roaches are AWFUL vs bio terran. So why not make roaches to deal with BF hellions? the same reason, but so much more. Hellions can easily run by roaches and roast workers. with four hellions you need 10 roaches. and even then 2 can get by and kill drones. and then guess what, you made 250 gas worth of useless roaches and they stopped making hellions after four. or they keep making hellions and they get either tanks or drop ships and take SUPER easy bases. Hellion nerf is so that you dont need an obscene amount of roaches to defend hellions, because if just TWO get by, you lose drones. Now it takes three hellions. this means 5 less roaches which is a faster lair by a minute or a half, which i s ahuge deal, and its also 125 gas, which is also a huge deal. Having to spend 100 extra minerals so you can one shot workers is not a big deal. give me a break. lol i stopped reading where you said you need 10 roaches for 4 hellions. not even close. If I see factory i get roach warren around 25 and make 3-4 roaches, or if I want to push i make 6. I can take a quick third that way too, but anyway 3-4 roaches deals 4 hellions so easily lol. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10675 Posts
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TimeFlighT
Australia257 Posts
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
On August 27 2011 14:14 GGzerG wrote: The PTR is online everyone, and there is alot of changes to the battle.net layout that is really sexy, go check it out! I am in the PTR. What are the sexy details you are talking about. Maybe I am just lacking attention to detail, but the layout looks the same to me. | ||
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xiaofan
United States513 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On August 27 2011 14:38 StreetWise wrote: I am in the PTR. What are the sexy details you are talking about. Maybe I am just lacking attention to detail, but the layout looks the same to me. Your profile now has a few more tabs,the quickmatch section has changed a little, same with the Score screen. Someone posted the pics ont hsi thread but I don't really know which page | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 27 2011 13:57 mburke05 wrote: I'd be ok with that if my siege tanks walked up and down cliffs and fired while moving, required no intelligent control, and shared upgrades with my marines. Oh wait.. I'd be okay with that if my gateway units could stim and warp prisms healed. | ||
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