EPTOn August 27 2011 05:32 RainbowDash wrote:
-PDD Blocks muta and brolord shots
-PDD Blocks muta and brolord shots
pdd blocking broodlings was considered a bug and has been patched out of the game
Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 193
| Forum Index > Closed |
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
pdd blocking broodlings was considered a bug and has been patched out of the game | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:45 TheDraken wrote: Isn't that the point of Zerg? It's the race you should be afraid to venture outside your ramp against in the early game. And for the record, Zerg all-ins are still relatively weak and far fewer in number than the other races. You can't possibly think 20 ling all-in or 7RR even compares to terran 1/1/1 or the old toss 4WG. Zerg hasn't had that strong of an all-in since beta. Here's a few zerg all ins/rushes that are very hard to scout and stop, one is vs huk and one is vs tt1. These should change your mind. + Show Spoiler + Links take you right to the actual attack | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 27 2011 04:14 kappadevin wrote: Zerglings and Stalkers are the same tier once you consider the speed upgrade being more or less equivalent to the construction of a Cybernetics Core. Also, Immortals have a niche against armored units, I don't know why you'd compare apples to oranges like that. I'm pointing out how your "they should be (better), they are a tier above" argument is entirely worthless. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 27 2011 06:12 Reborn8u wrote: Here's a few zerg all ins/rushes that are very hard to scout and stop, one is vs huk and one is vs tt1. These should change your mind. + Show Spoiler + Links take you right to the actual attack http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG55YcjoIos&t=8m45s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvnRf5kORos&t=4m0s Keep in mind all of these cheeses are against protoss. Terran still has nothing to worry about apart from roach rushes. Maybe gas first becomes a BO loss against 6pool with 5 extra seconds on the barracks. That isn't a bad thing, because if you can't hold a 6pool with a barracks first, then you're doing it wrong. Protoss has to worry about 6 pool against every zerg, why doesn't terran? | ||
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RocketBOy
15 Posts
nerfing hellions why? this is terrans fastest and most effeicent way of harass! vision up ramps reduced are they wanting to encourage people sitting in there bases till the 12 minute mark. Now I know pros will never do this because they are too busy trying to get the offensive advantage but non pros this will give them even more of a excuse to turtle. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:57 TimeSpiral wrote: Minor tweaks to build/research times, pre-req changes, and unit ability tweaks will almost always just shift the balance issues around. They cannot really address the underlying game-design issues that are at the root of imbalances. Expansions are the perfect opportunity to address these things because you will typically have to address the core functionality of the game-design itself in order to create the finished product. The most dramatic effects these patches usually impart, is on the meta-game. However, there have been some really huge changes to the game through these patches, but that is only because they are making big changes to stats (SD pre-req, KA, Roach Range, Infestor DPS buff, Reaper, Flux Veins, etc ...). This Patch is actually really ambitious. +Major Immortal buff +Death of the BFH +Leashing of the Opestor +Rise of the Ultra! The Immortal buff is nice and its synergy with the Protoss ball will increase, but I wouldn't call it "major." As a player who has practiced exclusively against the 1-1-1 on the PTR with the new immortal, I do not feel as if it addresses the core problems of dealing with the 1-1-1 all-in (15 Nex, 1 Gate Expo vs 2Rax). I do see it having an impact in PvZ, as the Immortal - Roach relationship will be quite extreme now. BFH will not die. 3 Shots to potentially kill 10+ harvesters is still very extreme. Very rarely do you see BFH used in numbers less than 3 trying to destroy a mineral line. Now it will simply take more time / skill on part of the Terran player to maximize the # of kills they can get. Many Pros have brought up the issue of Helions being too easy to use for how much damage they can do in a short period of time (Morrow, TT1, Bomber, Byun). This patch addresses that. I do understand the increased frustration in dealing with mass Chargelots -- the additional shots to kill will be frustrating for Terran players. Just some points I wanted to address. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On August 27 2011 06:36 RocketBOy wrote: why are blizzard trying more and more to make this a turtle game of favoring the defender? nerfing hellions why? this is terrans fastest and most effeicent way of harass! vision up ramps reduced are they wanting to encourage people sitting in there bases till the 12 minute mark. Now I know pros will never do this because they are too busy trying to get the offensive advantage but non pros this will give them even more of a excuse to turtle. Yeah, defender advantage is something terrible and we should get rid of it asap! I miss the games of the first two GSL open tournaments, they were so action packed with lots and lots of aggression and rushes. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On August 27 2011 06:39 QTIP. wrote: The Immortal buff is nice and its synergy with the Protoss ball will increase, but I wouldn't call it "major." As a player who has practiced exclusively against the 1-1-1 on the PTR with the new immortal, I do not feel as if it addresses the core problems of dealing with the 1-1-1 all-in (15 Nex, 1 Gate Expo vs 2Rax). I do see it having an impact in PvZ, as the Immortal - Roach relationship will be quite extreme now. BFH will not die. 3 Shots to potentially kill 10+ harvesters is still very extreme. Very rarely do you see BFH used in numbers less than 3 trying to destroy a mineral line. Now it will simply take more time / skill on part of the Terran player to maximize the # of kills they can get. Many Pros have brought up the issue of Helions being too easy to use for how much damage they can do in a short period of time (Morrow, TT1, Bomber, Byun). This patch addresses that. I do understand the increased frustration in dealing with mass Chargelots -- the additional shots to kill will be frustrating for Terran players. Just some points I wanted to address. Have we a rapport?! I love it. I think a permanent innate range buff is one of the best buffs you could hope for, for a unit, honestly. That's the only reason I'm using the term major. Buffing built times, HP, MP, DPS, Armor are all minor, or tweaks, unless of course the change is extreme. The death of the BFH is yet to be determined, but I predict it will no longer be an early game option (as an opener). I just don't think it's worth it. But, maybe it is. Maybe +5 versus light is a big deal. Affecting worker harass by nerfing a unit's core upgrade seems like the wrong approach. Because just like you mentioned, dealing with large packs of light units, like Lings, Marines, and Chargelots is just going to be rofl. Make a new armor class. Call it Worker. Problem solved. The helion will still be used, sure, but I think red flame will be favored in early game almost exclusively. | ||
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MrGio
Georgia28 Posts
Hellions are killing probes/drones/SCV without Blue flame with 3 shoots and with blue flame 2 shoots right? This was the reason to upgrade hellions. After this patch will come out, blue flame won't be so usefull anymore.  | ||
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Farseer9
United States20 Posts
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Cervezas
8 Posts
Bug Fixes Protoss •Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank's sieged attack. •Fixed an issue where Colossus thermal lance beams would track a unit much further than the range of the weapon. Zerg •Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes. •Attack upgrades are now retained by units controlled by Neural Parasite. These things are very minor however I feel could have a major impact. Specifically Gaurdian shield vs. tanks. The drone bug is a funny one to me but it shows blizzard's intentions to balance the game. Workers should be the most balanced units in the game imo lol. I feel the attack upgrad retention is huge for neural on Colossus. This is an interestin "buff" to neural parasite. Also another note from this section made me curious.... Again for Zerg Bug Fixes •If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Wondering, does this mean something like the Warp Prism, or perhaps if you Neural an enemy Overlord it provides food for you? lol interesting stuff... My thoughts from a newb\spectator position. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 27 2011 07:11 TimeSpiral wrote: Have we a rapport?! I love it. I think a permanent innate range buff is one of the best buffs you could hope for, for a unit, honestly. That's the only reason I'm using the term major. Buffing built times, HP, MP, DPS, Armor are all minor, or tweaks, unless of course the change is extreme. The death of the BFH is yet to be determined, but I predict it will no longer be an early game option (as an opener). I just don't think it's worth it. But, maybe it is. Maybe +5 versus light is a big deal. Affecting worker harass by nerfing a unit's core upgrade seems like the wrong approach. Because just like you mentioned, dealing with large packs of light units, like Lings, Marines, and Chargelots is just going to be rofl. Make a new armor class. Call it Worker. Problem solved. The helion will still be used, sure, but I think red flame will be favored in early game almost exclusively. Yes - Range Buff is certainly a good buff for the Immortal considering its clunki-ness and poor value for its cost. Previously, once you had Colossus tech available, Immortals were never considered a unit that would be used in the mid to late game. If they had Mass vikings, Templar was always the preferred choice. Immortals were expensive - and got worse the larger your army was. It's increased range may change that. However, I still think it scales very poorly against Bio with Stim. Lings still take just 2 Blue Flame Shots to kill. Terrans will still be able to force tons of Lings / Roaches in response, they just won't be able to end the game because the ramp into the main wasn't blocked. I agree that a unique armor class of "Harvestor" would help out, though it may be somewhat difficult to implement with the game (WoL) already a finished product. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Ouch. | ||
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roemy
Germany432 Posts
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binkman
Australia40 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:35 mostevil wrote: It could be much worse than that though because magic boxing at least stops focus firing, this could potentially auto magic box whilst targeting specific unit/building etc. Can someone try muta vs thor without a magic box? I'm on EU so I can't try it (and most folk magic box when appropriate on this server) Probably the only thread-worthy change in the patch, and it has gone largely unnoticed. Whats worse is that its listed as a bug fix. "Fixed an issue where flying unit separation wasn’t consistent." Is the effect as pronounced for mutas? Or does their low range make them clump up more still? What about Viking battles? | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
Edit: for anti-air purposes... it's damage is low, the splash is what makes it good. | ||
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dbddbddb
Singapore969 Posts
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On August 27 2011 06:12 Reborn8u wrote: Here's a few zerg all ins/rushes that are very hard to scout and stop, one is vs huk and one is vs tt1. These should change your mind. + Show Spoiler + Links take you right to the actual attack http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG55YcjoIos&t=8m45s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvnRf5kORos&t=4m0s Not sure how the first one is an unscoutable or unstoppable all-in. Huk saw ling infestor in plenty of time, which is why he had templar. The only thing a toss needs to do to stop a sharking zerg is to put one forward cannon to deny burrowed IT attacks (or just research storm, lol). Even so, I wouldn't consider the burrow IT push a potent all-in since it's relatively easy to stop when you know it's coming. The second and third are legitimately potent all-ins (by the measure that they're hard to stop even when scouted), but they're essentially the same. Haven't seen a zerg player ever aggressively deny scout so he could turtle... it's always so he can hide his roach warren. Even when Destiny said it was the zerg equivalent of a four gate, it turned out he was ridiculously wrong and that it wasn't that potent against someone who had seen it before. If you can't scout a zerg that's acting suspicious, you just need to prepare for a flood of ground units (I suppose fast muta is all-in, but it's pretty weak even if you don't see it coming). If you can't scout a terran that's acting suspicious, it could frikin be anything: 1/1/1, repair thor, banshee, hellion drop, tank push... and they're all pretty powerful. Hence the whole zerg QQ about the scary 3 minutes when it's nearly impossible to scout an attentive terran going into midgame. Not saying that terran has some unfair advantage having a larger selection of powerful all-ins, but I think all the QQ over the terran race becoming broken because their all-ins are being taken away is a bit overboard. It just makes terran less... terran? Lol. | ||
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springtree
74 Posts
Blizz almost certainly keep a track record of every single unit killed in a ladder game, and by what unit it was killed, or rather, how much damage every unit does on average, how many units are made on average per game, divided into rankings (GM vs M etc). They know how many infestors are made on average, and how many are made on average for won games versus how many made for lost games. Ask any developer of any software about usage analysis and you'll see that the cute little app you use to write your grocery list on your smart phone does exactly the same thing. It records and sends the data about every single tap you make to the developers to give them a sense of what features are being used and not. You might think Blizz doesn't have the capacity to record every single click you do in a game, but it's not like they're not doing so openly (replays, APM, etc). The replay system is simply an interface on top of a system that does a lot more than just make replays. That, and ultra top pro level tournament statistics, which unless I'm confused are pretty evenly spread across races, are more likely to affect Blizzard decisions on game changes than the number of (race) tears they get thrown at them. As for the argument that basing the game on the top 3% of the users is bad, that's obviously what they have to do. In all but the very top tier of players, no amount of balancing the game is going to make a game perfectly balanced, because the two players will always be different levels in skill, more or less. For argument's sake, let's say zerg is extremely overpowered to the point of ridicule. A bronze level zerg player manages to enter gold simply because zerg is so god damned overpowered. A plat zerg hits master. His skill level identical to that of any other plat. Then what? He is in master league facing off superior opponents who macro, micro, and decide far better than he does. Does it matter that he's overpowered at this point? No. He's at a rank he's not supposed to be, and that's all. Once you hit top tier, the players' skill levels plane out towards some form of equilibrium. At this point, if the game isn't balanced, our friend the master zerg might eventually push his way up into (and beyond) GM. At this point though, he's top 3%, and thus subject to the scrutiny of the balancing. Pardon the blab. | ||
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lundell100
Sweden232 Posts
On August 27 2011 08:13 Maxie wrote: Thors will be useless then? ;S Edit: for anti-air purposes... it's damage is low, the splash is what makes it good. Thors have always been useless as anti-air. That is if the opponent has any kind of magic boxing abilities at all. | ||
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