Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
On August 27 2011 02:58 Oboeman wrote: Here's screenshots of the flying unit separation change. In both situations the banshees are clumped and given an attack command on the pf.
I'll let you guess which is the PTR
Cripes, anyone else thinking that's a major buff to lameness like massing voids and banshees? That thor/fungal/archons not looking so good from this shot. How long does the spread take?
On August 27 2011 02:58 Oboeman wrote: Here's screenshots of the flying unit separation change. In both situations the banshees are clumped and given an attack command on the pf.
I'll let you guess which is the PTR
Cripes, anyone else thinking that's a major buff to lameness like massing voids and banshees? That thor/fungal/archons not looking so good from this shot. How long does the spread take?
Wow, that is going to be tough for toss to deal with if storm and archons are less effective AA. Stalkers dps being so bad.
On August 27 2011 04:01 ContactKilla wrote: I dont understand all these buffs/nerfs. I thought the game was pretty balanced before these new patch notes.
All races are flexible but it just seems the Terran is "OP" because of all the different builds that are used. That doesnt make Terran OP. I always see people saying "Wtf why did your blue flames kill all my lings or lots or marines?" Because thats what that unit is used for and go a different strategy to counter them. Its just silly that instead of evolving the gameplay, we patch it instead.
Every race has had their buff and nerf but this one just seems stupid. If you cant deal with these units i feel its something that your doing wrong not that the game is "Imba" Every race has a counter for every build against each other.
Its also stupid that all these buffs for Toss, and yet they still complain about they are the weakest race. Yeah thats why Huk just kicked Nadas ass.
The blue flame hellions are kind of ridiculous, even when scouted with units in place to defend they often more then pay for themselves with worker kills. I recently watched a few korean TvT's where the whole game was about who got more worker kills with hellions. Both players knew they were coming and could not stop the dmg in most instances.
Yes I agree. Considering the skill/cost in using BFH, it's ridiculous how quickly they can change the game.
On August 25 2011 12:31 n.DieJokes wrote: From a terrans perspective (not to single you out, its just easier to frame my response to this patch as a reply to someone else)
-Immortal nerf will have little affect on 1/1/1. -Blink Stalker research
The range boost will make them even better bunker busters, I never 1/1/1 so I can't comment on how effective it will be. Blink stalker is okay I guess, won't be a game changer for me.
Barracks build time is to slightly nerf the build on the10 billion page thread on the 3 brx all in and various other early all ins with marines and SCVs. Still I don't think if it will matter much.
The barrack nerf is a nerf to the entire race. The oc is five seconds later, any fastest possible tech is five seconds slower and it makes my 12/14 even less threatening although I could probably make it 12/13 with the extra bit of money. The point is we need to pressure the zerg to stay close economically or we get rofl'd over. The later the game gets the harder it is to win (did they really need the ultra buff -.-) Oh and every cheese and allin against us is a tiny bit stronger
Slow follow up as usual (sorry), but yeah I probably overreacted a little saying the fungal "nerf" was going to help Terran tons. "Tons" was certainly an exaggeration. I think it will help T some since it may allow the possibility of healing... I was thinking 55 hp, stim to 45 hp, old fungal brought marines down to 10 hp, which is 2 ling attacks. Now they'll be at 6 hp which is 4 ling attacks... seems significant enough ton paper to possibly medivac heal in time. But not huge, agreed.
The reason it's not going to help P (maybe somebody else was saying something here, not you) is that all small units (most gateway) and therefore all core units take the same number of fungals to kill. And chain fungal lock is still strong against both T and P, which is the main problem I think.
I still don't think the immortal range increase will help defend 1/1/1 much, but you actually touched on something that I think it will help with. Attacking. Maybe there will be some immortal aggression against defending/teching terran that will indirectly make current 1/1/1 timings harder to obtain.
About the 5 second barracks nerf, I can certainly appreciate the implications against Zerg. I agree that pressure against Zerg is basically required, but not as easy to come by nowadays. Still, for TvP I think the nerf will be a good thing... T has had big advantages over P in the early game always (more obvious on small to medium maps), and this may do something to chip away at that advantage.
On August 25 2011 12:06 Blacklizard wrote: Random comments: -OK change on overseer cost I think since they die pretty often. But yeah, like someone said the spore root buff needs to be reverted. Queens are extremely effective anti-air for minerals only. Spores that can move and shoot like normal units (almost) are kinda insane.
You need to realise that although queens are a good defensive AA unit their offensive use is very limited, which already is Zerg's weak point in the early game.
Speedlings are pretty much all that is needed to be aggressive against P going air, I think. After that, Zerg just needs to defend at home vs air. I dunno, I just haven't seen Protoss air be that scary against Zerg even in the hands of someone like MC against a Zerg being a little greedy on econ. There was a Day9 episode not long ago concentrating on I think Ret making almost nothing but drones (couple of queens/spores) to defend against a very aggressive P air pressure. He Went to like 80 drones and rolled the P.
So yeah, I stand by my comment that if overseers will be easier for detecting DT harass, then spores probably need to go back to their old movement/root stats.
On August 27 2011 03:47 kappadevin wrote: I like that the other races are getting buffs to their underused units, but where's the Hydralisk off creep speed buff? If they made Hydralisks faster off of creep, you would actually see them used more in the mid game, and they wouldn't have to buff their damage or hp or anything. Oh well, I am at least glad we get a build time buff for Ultralisks, maybe they'll actually be more viable late game.
So then Zerg could rock protoss in the mid game with another units besides the infestor? Since the hydra hard counters every gateway unit.
If that was true, why doesn't every zerg player go Hydralisks against protoss? Speed be damned, if they hard countered everything then why wouldn't you see them used more?
Hydras are good against gateway units, but they should be, they are a tier above them. Just like Hydras get countered by Colossi and Templar.
Stupid argument.
See: Marine - Immortal Zergling - Stalker
Zerglings and Stalkers are the same tier once you consider the speed upgrade being more or less equivalent to the construction of a Cybernetics Core. Also, Immortals have a niche against armored units, I don't know why you'd compare apples to oranges like that.
they need to bring back old hidralisc 1 sup....t1 ...also speed .... then fungel dont need to stun unites... it can slow them... and blink will be no problem....
marines need to have 40 hp + shilds 15hp becous of 1-1-1...rush....
On August 27 2011 04:18 bole wrote: they need to bring back old hidralisc 1 sup....t1 ...also speed .... then fungel dont need to stun unites... it can slow them... and blink will be no problem....
marines need to have 40 hp + shilds 15hp becous of 1-1-1...rush....
See these are the kinds of suggestions that are just stupid. Hydralisks only need their speed increased, and if that comes from an upgrade than so be it. But 1 supply and tier 1 would be way overpowered.
On August 27 2011 03:47 kappadevin wrote: I like that the other races are getting buffs to their underused units, but where's the Hydralisk off creep speed buff? If they made Hydralisks faster off of creep, you would actually see them used more in the mid game, and they wouldn't have to buff their damage or hp or anything. Oh well, I am at least glad we get a build time buff for Ultralisks, maybe they'll actually be more viable late game.
So then Zerg could rock protoss in the mid game with another units besides the infestor? Since the hydra hard counters every gateway unit.
If that was true, why doesn't every zerg player go Hydralisks against protoss? Speed be damned, if they hard countered everything then why wouldn't you see them used more?
Hydras are good against gateway units, but they should be, they are a tier above them. Just like Hydras get countered by Colossi and Templar.
Stupid argument.
See: Marine - Immortal Zergling - Stalker
Zerglings and Stalkers are the same tier once you consider the speed upgrade being more or less equivalent to the construction of a Cybernetics Core. Also, Immortals have a niche against armored units, I don't know why you'd compare apples to oranges like that.
Hydralisks being a 'tier above' (which is a stupid phrase in this game) is irrelevant. You'll be getting lair anyway fairly quickly, and hydras are cheaper than stalkers and zerg also has more econ and instant production capabilities, so you would be buffing its speed to make it even better against gateway while still being just as bad versus colossi. I would be fine with a speed upgrade and even an hp buff, if they lowered the dps to compensate.
People say they want the old hydras back...lol look how many BW games end due to hydra busts versus protoss, it's stupid. SC2 would just be a rush to colossi which would leave you vulnerable to roaches anyway.
Anyway they'll probably change the hydra somewhat in Heart of the Swarm, just wait it out
On August 27 2011 04:18 bole wrote: they need to bring back old hidralisc 1 sup....t1 ...also speed .... then fungel dont need to stun unites... it can slow them... and blink will be no problem....
marines need to have 40 hp + shilds 15hp becous of 1-1-1...rush....
See these are the kinds of suggestions that are just stupid. Hydralisks only need their speed increased, and if that comes from an upgrade than so be it. But 1 supply and tier 1 would be way overpowered.
No I agree they should be one supply.
I dont like the idea of a speed upgrade for Hydralisks. They are way too powerful against Protoss to be allowed it off creep. However I would like to see them be more expendable at 1 supply so that they could reward Zerg players for spreading creep.
As it stands, spreading creep is very advantageous, but with this proposed change being on creep would be amazing for zerg, with a huge army of fast hydras.
On August 26 2011 22:47 Lockindal wrote: Rax build time increase is pretty pesky. 6 pool vs terran is now.... lol
its funny how terran didnt have to worry about any early game pressure or proxys, and now u are QQing like babys about it, LEARN to SCOUT... in this patch Terran will have a little of his own medicine.
Yep defo a L2P issue when you get 6pooled on a 4player map and scout them last, Npnp.
-_-
... The build time of the barracks doesn't affect this. The wall completion time does. Seems like an L2P issue to me. A slightly later marine doesn't disable the repair feature of the space construction vehicle.
On August 27 2011 04:18 bole wrote: they need to bring back old hidralisc 1 sup....t1 ...also speed .... then fungel dont need to stun unites... it can slow them... and blink will be no problem....
marines need to have 40 hp + shilds 15hp becous of 1-1-1...rush....
See these are the kinds of suggestions that are just stupid. Hydralisks only need their speed increased, and if that comes from an upgrade than so be it. But 1 supply and tier 1 would be way overpowered.
No I agree they should be one supply.
I dont like the idea of a speed upgrade for Hydralisks. They are way too powerful against Protoss to be allowed it off creep. However I would like to see them be more expendable at 1 supply so that they could reward Zerg players for spreading creep.
As it stands, spreading creep is very advantageous, but with this proposed change being on creep would be amazing for zerg, with a huge army of fast hydras.
You would literally be able to have twice as many hydras...if you can't think of the implications of this I don't know what to tell you. Compositions like infestor/broodlord/hydralisk would be unbeatable.
On August 27 2011 04:08 OzkanTheFlip wrote: this is shit wtf people dont know how to make a roach so they nerf helions
Thank you fuckin god. This is exactly what people need. Dont nerf the hells, build a fuckin roach you nubs
Lol. Watch something like Nestea v MMA. Roaches delay your tech so much, leaving you extremely vulnerable to drops, stops you from being able to apply any significant pressure, and hellions can still manuever around roaches unless there are several in every mineral line. It's not like making one roach stops blue flame hellions. And they were a retarded unit in every matchup and everyone knew it, if your army was out of position once in the game and someone dropped blue flame hellions you were guaranteed to lose at least half your mineral line.
successful fungal growths disable any micro attempts successful force fields disable any micro attempts ghosts are able to snipe/shock-wave enemy casters very many siege tanks dispatched successfully disable any micro attempts
i guess blizzard puts value on some special tactics, not only raw micro capacity. and i would like to thank blizzard for that, otherwise there would be little to no hope for the foreigners //_//
oh, and another thing... less qq and more improve .__.
On August 27 2011 04:18 bole wrote: they need to bring back old hidralisc 1 sup....t1 ...also speed .... then fungel dont need to stun unites... it can slow them... and blink will be no problem....
marines need to have 40 hp + shilds 15hp becous of 1-1-1...rush....
See these are the kinds of suggestions that are just stupid. Hydralisks only need their speed increased, and if that comes from an upgrade than so be it. But 1 supply and tier 1 would be way overpowered.
hmp old hidralisc... that meens not this much hp as this new ones and atc... (lower atc and hp) but 1 sup.... t1 old hidralisc...(hidralisc dont have eny use in game...they are so joke of unite right now).....that is just sugestion how hidra would work agean.. maby..
but marines need to be 40 hp insted of 45 and shilds should gave to them 15 hp more...to provent 1-1-1....all ins...
On August 26 2011 16:50 captainwaffles wrote: Why do workers have to classified as light? Why not just make SCV's and Probes just mechanical and make drones just biological, then Hellions wouldn't totally rape them and mech play can continue to grow.
I don't think many Terrans actually like mech play all that much. Only Artosis and hard-core Broodwar nostalgics seem to want mech TvT.
I think you're wrong, I haven't heard of any pros (Terran) not liking the metagame shift in TvT. I mean, its just so much more fun and entertaining to watch than watching a blob of marines running into another blob. Mech makes it more like chess or a game of Risk- much more emphasis on what areas of the map you can control.
can you ask ST Bomber, how he plans to deal with the mech TvT metagame thats going on right now. and also if he is also switching into the whole heavy blue flame at the start into tank/marine - Asked by David_G
Bomber: Mech is better than Bio now, Mech imba but I will change to Bio then Mech because Mech vs Mech is not a fun game, I believe I can change it to bio. I am trying bio all the time now.
Great, you found one pro who doesn't like it, I can name 4 off the top of my head GoOdy, Drewbie, Jinro, IMYoda. I would list more but I don't want to put words in anyones mouth unless I'm sure.
On August 27 2011 02:14 Elefanto wrote: How about: You can't stack fungals. New fungal only works after the one before expired. If you stack an unit already under the effect of fungal, it won't activate.
This would actually be good. So irritating when I hear zergs complain about forcefields, and that it prevents micro, when they can stack fungal growth, that just seems hypocritical. (And I know infestors are a higher tech blabla, but w/e). Having like a small second cooldown or so after the first fungal has ended would probably solve everything, because then the person who was on the receiving-end of the fungal would have a small window of time to spread out his units.
You call out people for being hypocritical and then propose a change to fungal only?
Do you know what hypocritical means?
...What? Are you trying to say that the forcefield needs a nerf aswell? Because that might be true, but just because I didn't mention it, that doesn't make me hypocritical. My post was about FUNGAL GROWTH, not forcefields. I could see forcefields getting nerfed aswell, the fewer ingame map-editors the better.
On August 27 2011 00:10 Reborn8u wrote: Since release there has been significant nerfs to both protoss and terran's early game. For example: supply before barracks, reaper nerfs, now 5 more seconds on barracks, bunker nerfs, stim nerf. Toss has had forge build time nerf, zealot build time nerf, warp gate research nerf, pylon nerf (this does affect forge expands imo). Even some significant mid/late game nerfs, blue flame, thors, and for toss several voidray nerfs, templar energy upgrade, mothership nerf (which is now getting a buff but it's almost an irrelevant unit anyway). At the same time zerg has had a lot of buffs, roach, fungal affecting blink, completely freezing units instead of slowing, damage bonus vs armored, huge dps increase, and now they are getting an ultralisk and overseer buff.
I'm really concerned that zerg may end up with an upgrade, economy, army, and mobility advantage at every stage of the game after the 7 minute mark. Meaning Terrans + Protoss will not have the ability to do enough damage to keep zerg in check at any stage.
I don't feel the immortal and prism buff, while helpful, is going to turn protoss around in it's pathetic statistics the last few months. If I'm not mistaken protoss has had the worst statistics in tournaments and holding places in GM since the start of this year. Considering it's the most played race, that is pretty damn bad. As for terran, I think limiting the amount of powerful builds that can simply win the game in 12 minutes is good, but I'm always hesitant to agree with any nerf to a races core units or core production. I definitely think terran needs some help in the late game, seems like the weakest race after 3 bases to me.
For zerg I'd like to see fungal tuned down a bit, it fills every role right now. Zergs are going roach infestor in every matchup and doing damn good with it. I say tune down the infestor, IMO they shouldn't be born with so many abilities, some should require research (fungal,infested, and burrow move all for free) and buff hydras or corruptors. So zerg actually has to make an anti air unit to counter air units. As it is now, zergs doesn't even need them because fungal or infested terrans provide all the anti air they need as well as infestors provide detection, aoe dmg, anti-micro, anti massive unit and harass. If you removed nydus, contamination, corruption, hydras, and changelings from the game most zergs wouldn't even notice. lol.
BTW If I've forgotten anything or misrepresented any facts please feel free to correct me in a non-douche baggy manner. My memory is far from perfect.
Completely agree, man. As strange as it seems, I think Zerg is the most powerful race right now. I also agree with the Terran buffs you presented, althought I play Protoss.
I agree as well. Definitely late game it's the case once economy gets cooking. Terran and Toss usually get their wins within first 10-15 min after that it's unlikely and about to get more unlikely the way they will get ultras out on a tech switch..
"original OP says zerg gets "lots" of buffs and then names roach and infestor which is two.... so two is a lot? zerg has also gotten major nerfs, ones that stick out to me are roach food nerf and armor nerf. queen speed as well as spine/spore burrow time are all small nerfs that made a noticeable impact. corruptors no longer being able to "goop" was also a very important nerf but it was OP before i suppose. plus the number of buffs/nerfs a race gets is not really relevant to how strong it is anyways.
as the game gets longer, Terran is the strongest due to orbitals, planetaries, and medvac drops. orbitals give mules which requires less scvs and frees up more supply for army. planetaries + turrets enable expos to be defended w/o units and frees up more supply for "main" army. medvac drops (and maybe even nukes) are the most cost effective and supply effective harass options which also indirectly allows for more supply for the "main" army. granted this may be due to the relative weakness of the "final" Terran army. however, if T adds in ravens (pdd is so good in large battles, HSM can be good late game too which allows for energy buildup), and maybe 2-3 battlecruisers, i think the late game Terran army composition can be pretty formidable."
And now my rebuttal good sir,
Your counting all the infestor buffs as 1 buff, fungal growth alone got 4 buffs, stopping blink/siege/viking liftoff, freezing units not slowing, dps doubled, and bonus for armored. At the same time the units that counter them got nerfed, Ht's and Ghosts. Roaches got range and the nerfs you mentioned are from beta,(you forgot roach regeneration was no research also) I am talking about release. But if you wanna go beta, warp research got nearly doubled, immortal build time got nerfed, range increase for immortals got removed (I think that was in beta), mothership build time nerf, sentry got 2 dmg nerf, and I'm sure Ive forgotten some. But imo the beta changes are irrelevant anyway because all of the races had ridiculous stuff in beta, but since you brought them up I thought I'd point out toss still got nerfed hard in beta. Also didn't spores recently get a root time buff recently? Ultras also got a buff that no spell other than dmg affects them and they break down FF's.
The main point of what I was saying wasn't merely about the buffs or nerfs. I was merely pointing out how protoss and terran has had their early game signifigantly weakened over the last year but zerg has not. Which is when you need to slow them down, the earlier the better. I'm concerned how the pace of the game has shifted to zergs favor in the early, mid and late game in so many categories. They have a huge mobility advantage, and creep gives them free vision of huge areas, they can out produce and remax much faster, and having an econ advantage as soon as they take their natural. But infestors alone give them a huge tech advantage as well.
A big part of this is due to the fact that infestors counter everything (at least for protoss but almost every terran unit as well) It basically counters every protoss tech path, it stops charge and blink, it detects DT's (and infestors are actually much scarier worker harass units than dt's) IMO fungal > psi storm in terms of dps and the fact that fungal can't be dodged or micro'd out of in any way,(it's like a FF surround and psi storm put together). Once the first fungal lands they can keep fungaling till everything dies, and the dmg is stack-able unlike storm. It counters air play with fungal and infested terrans, and neural parasite and fungal deal with colossus and immortals very well. It is not always possible to hit them with feedback either. Because usually infestors are at the back of the zerg army, which means the HT's must be at the front of the toss army to be in range for feedback. Ht's die really fast and fungal kills them just as good as anything else, when their are 50 roaches in front of the infestors the Ht's evaporate in a second. It takes vastly greater control IMO to deal with the infestors than it does to deal with the ht's. Even with better control it is still sometimes impossible because protoss simply can't have enough gas to produce the amount of HT's and have time for them to charge energy needed to feedback so many infestors. Unless the protoss is ahead in economy for some reason.
Think about the gas costs of protoss's tech and army just to deal with the roaches (sentries 100gas each, twilight 100gas, templar archives 200 gas, storm 200 gas, robo 100 gas, warp 50 gas, blink 150 gas, colossus 200 gas, robo support 200 gas, colossus range 200 gas, immortals 100 gas.obs 75 gas) Obviously, protoss isn't going to get all of these but, they will need some combination of them just to not get run over by roaches that cost 25 gas each and cost 0 gas to tech to. Zerg can get lair, roach speed and infestors out for a total of 300 gas (100 gas for lair, 100 gas for roach speed, 100 gas for infestation pit). Thats the gas equivalent to warp 1 stalker and 2 sentries. Think about that for a minute. I realize they are different races but should the race that automatically gets the better economy and production get tech that is so much cheaper and counters so many things? Infestors just do way too many things too well and roach infestor takes way too much to deal with imo.
In some ways this is the same problem with terran, while mules do provide them with tons of late game minerals, the terran late game units and tech are very gas heavy, and take forever to produce and if they trade armies with them, they will die before they can reproduce as powerful an army as compared to protoss or zerg. Also, terrans upgrades are split up much more, air, bio, mech. So when they transition into late game units they are behind on upgrades.
/end balance whine
its lazy of me to jus point out one thing in ur long response (which im sure has many good points) but im going to stick with the stuff related to my own original response. if ur talking about buffs since release im not sure what buff u mean by fungal freezing instead of slowing. when did fungal ever only slow in release, was that in alpha or something? spores got a root buff AFTER getting a root nerf and its still overall slower than it was b4. u call ultras smashing down FF a buff to zerg? are u joking? all massive can do that...
ur wrong if u think zergs only have been buffed and not nerfed. all races have gotten their fair share. more zerg nerfs: broodlord armor, broodlord speed, slight dps and HP nerf on hydra (maybe beta?)
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Maybe there will be some immortal aggression against defending/teching terran that will indirectly make current 1/1/1 timings harder to obtain. 
