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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On August 27 2011 02:56 Tennet wrote: Please tell me a Terran unit that can kill a protoss death ball while preventing movement and abilities? Not too sure, just know zerg has none either. | ||
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Sliding Taco
10 Posts
On August 27 2011 02:56 Tennet wrote: Please tell me a Terran unit that can kill a protoss death ball while preventing movement and abilities? ..........2 emps instantly take their whole army to half health and removes any ff/storms | ||
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avidday04
United States63 Posts
The only other change I'm worried about, from a Zerg perspective, is the fungle. It's hard for me to say if this will be good or bad, but at least people will stop complaining about it for a while XD Finally, the overseer changes are nice. The cost buff -FAR- outweighs the contaminate nurf and that is NOT my opinion. When Protoss has blink stalkers and DT's (or mothership for that matter) and you need as many overseers as possible you can now get twice as many! (Gas is usually the limiting factor). So instead of making 4 with your army you get a whopping 8! Also being able to make 2 for the old price of one will allow you to still contaminate virtually the same about as before so it's really not a nerf. P.S. I'm sad that I didn't see a speed increase to Broodlords T.T | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
(Obviously Immortals aren't "trash" spammable dirt cheap units like Roaches but the +1 can make all the difference it seems) | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
make light units stunned by FG armored units slowed massive units immune (stun/slow) it pretty ridiculous that Zerg can dump everything in 1 unit and be safe against almost everything. it wouldn't be a problem if Zerg wouldn't be able to spawn so many infestors with energy immediatly, but thanks to larva, almost any gas can go into them, and they also get alot stronger due to energy gain compared to both Ghosts (limited damage potential) and HT (Storm has a cooldown and is avoidable) it is pretty odd that a fungal in most games will do more damage then an average storm + the additional benefit of disabling any micro. And Neural Parasite is such a good spell (i.e. very similar to Strike Canons, imho even more powerful) | ||
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Tennet
United States1458 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:31 Sliding Taco wrote: ..........2 emps instantly take their whole army to half health and removes any ff/storms EMP doesn't kill units nor prevent movement. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On August 26 2011 17:28 captainwaffles wrote: I think you're wrong, I haven't heard of any pros (Terran) not liking the metagame shift in TvT. I mean, its just so much more fun and entertaining to watch than watching a blob of marines running into another blob. Mech makes it more like chess or a game of Risk- much more emphasis on what areas of the map you can control. http://www.upclosegamers.com/article/ask-startale-answers can you ask ST Bomber, how he plans to deal with the mech TvT metagame thats going on right now. and also if he is also switching into the whole heavy blue flame at the start into tank/marine - Asked by David_G Bomber: Mech is better than Bio now, Mech imba but I will change to Bio then Mech because Mech vs Mech is not a fun game, I believe I can change it to bio. I am trying bio all the time now. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
[QUOTE]On August 27 2011 02:40 Bluerain wrote: [QUOTE]On August 27 2011 01:50 tdt wrote: [QUOTE]On August 27 2011 00:58 IronBreaker wrote: [QUOTE]On August 27 2011 00:10 Reborn8u wrote: Since release there has been significant nerfs to both protoss and terran's early game. For example: supply before barracks, reaper nerfs, now 5 more seconds on barracks, bunker nerfs, stim nerf. Toss has had forge build time nerf, zealot build time nerf, warp gate research nerf, pylon nerf (this does affect forge expands imo). Even some significant mid/late game nerfs, blue flame, thors, and for toss several voidray nerfs, templar energy upgrade, mothership nerf (which is now getting a buff but it's almost an irrelevant unit anyway). At the same time zerg has had a lot of buffs, roach, fungal affecting blink, completely freezing units instead of slowing, damage bonus vs armored, huge dps increase, and now they are getting an ultralisk and overseer buff. I'm really concerned that zerg may end up with an upgrade, economy, army, and mobility advantage at every stage of the game after the 7 minute mark. Meaning Terrans + Protoss will not have the ability to do enough damage to keep zerg in check at any stage. I don't feel the immortal and prism buff, while helpful, is going to turn protoss around in it's pathetic statistics the last few months. If I'm not mistaken protoss has had the worst statistics in tournaments and holding places in GM since the start of this year. Considering it's the most played race, that is pretty damn bad. As for terran, I think limiting the amount of powerful builds that can simply win the game in 12 minutes is good, but I'm always hesitant to agree with any nerf to a races core units or core production. I definitely think terran needs some help in the late game, seems like the weakest race after 3 bases to me. For zerg I'd like to see fungal tuned down a bit, it fills every role right now. Zergs are going roach infestor in every matchup and doing damn good with it. I say tune down the infestor, IMO they shouldn't be born with so many abilities, some should require research (fungal,infested, and burrow move all for free) and buff hydras or corruptors. So zerg actually has to make an anti air unit to counter air units. As it is now, zergs doesn't even need them because fungal or infested terrans provide all the anti air they need as well as infestors provide detection, aoe dmg, anti-micro, anti massive unit and harass. If you removed nydus, contamination, corruption, hydras, and changelings from the game most zergs wouldn't even notice. lol. BTW If I've forgotten anything or misrepresented any facts please feel free to correct me in a non-douche baggy manner. My memory is far from perfect. [/QUOTE] Completely agree, man. As strange as it seems, I think Zerg is the most powerful race right now. I also agree with the Terran buffs you presented, althought I play Protoss. [/QUOTE] I agree as well. Definitely late game it's the case once economy gets cooking. Terran and Toss usually get their wins within first 10-15 min after that it's unlikely and about to get more unlikely the way they will get ultras out on a tech switch.. [/QUOTE] "original OP says zerg gets "lots" of buffs and then names roach and infestor which is two.... so two is a lot? zerg has also gotten major nerfs, ones that stick out to me are roach food nerf and armor nerf. queen speed as well as spine/spore burrow time are all small nerfs that made a noticeable impact. corruptors no longer being able to "goop" was also a very important nerf but it was OP before i suppose. plus the number of buffs/nerfs a race gets is not really relevant to how strong it is anyways. as the game gets longer, Terran is the strongest due to orbitals, planetaries, and medvac drops. orbitals give mules which requires less scvs and frees up more supply for army. planetaries + turrets enable expos to be defended w/o units and frees up more supply for "main" army. medvac drops (and maybe even nukes) are the most cost effective and supply effective harass options which also indirectly allows for more supply for the "main" army. granted this may be due to the relative weakness of the "final" Terran army. however, if T adds in ravens (pdd is so good in large battles, HSM can be good late game too which allows for energy buildup), and maybe 2-3 battlecruisers, i think the late game Terran army composition can be pretty formidable." And now my rebuttal good sir,  Your counting all the infestor buffs as 1 buff, fungal growth alone got 4 buffs, stopping blink/siege/viking liftoff, freezing units not slowing, dps doubled, and bonus for armored. At the same time the units that counter them got nerfed, Ht's and Ghosts. Roaches got range and the nerfs you mentioned are from beta,(you forgot roach regeneration was no research also) I am talking about release. But if you wanna go beta, warp research got nearly doubled, immortal build time got nerfed, range increase for immortals got removed (I think that was in beta), mothership build time nerf, sentry got 2 dmg nerf, and I'm sure Ive forgotten some. But imo the beta changes are irrelevant anyway because all of the races had ridiculous stuff in beta, but since you brought them up I thought I'd point out toss still got nerfed hard in beta. Also didn't spores recently get a root time buff recently? Ultras also got a buff that no spell other than dmg affects them and they break down FF's. The main point of what I was saying wasn't merely about the buffs or nerfs. I was merely pointing out how protoss and terran has had their early game signifigantly weakened over the last year but zerg has not. Which is when you need to slow them down, the earlier the better. I'm concerned how the pace of the game has shifted to zergs favor in the early, mid and late game in so many categories. They have a huge mobility advantage, and creep gives them free vision of huge areas, they can out produce and remax much faster, and having an econ advantage as soon as they take their natural. But infestors alone give them a huge tech advantage as well. A big part of this is due to the fact that infestors counter everything (at least for protoss but almost every terran unit as well) It basically counters every protoss tech path, it stops charge and blink, it detects DT's (and infestors are actually much scarier worker harass units than dt's) IMO fungal > psi storm in terms of dps and the fact that fungal can't be dodged or micro'd out of in any way,(it's like a FF surround and psi storm put together). Once the first fungal lands they can keep fungaling till everything dies, and the dmg is stack-able unlike storm. It counters air play with fungal and infested terrans, and neural parasite and fungal deal with colossus and immortals very well. It is not always possible to hit them with feedback either. Because usually infestors are at the back of the zerg army, which means the HT's must be at the front of the toss army to be in range for feedback. Ht's die really fast and fungal kills them just as good as anything else, when their are 50 roaches in front of the infestors the Ht's evaporate in a second. It takes vastly greater control IMO to deal with the infestors than it does to deal with the ht's. Even with better control it is still sometimes impossible because protoss simply can't have enough gas to produce the amount of HT's and have time for them to charge energy needed to feedback so many infestors. Unless the protoss is ahead in economy for some reason. Think about the gas costs of protoss's tech and army just to deal with the roaches (sentries 100gas each, twilight 100gas, templar archives 200 gas, storm 200 gas, robo 100 gas, warp 50 gas, blink 150 gas, colossus 200 gas, robo support 200 gas, colossus range 200 gas, immortals 100 gas.obs 75 gas) Obviously, protoss isn't going to get all of these but, they will need some combination of them just to not get run over by roaches that cost 25 gas each and cost 0 gas to tech to. Zerg can get lair, roach speed and infestors out for a total of 300 gas (100 gas for lair, 100 gas for roach speed, 100 gas for infestation pit). Thats the gas equivalent to warp 1 stalker and 2 sentries. Think about that for a minute. I realize they are different races but should the race that automatically gets the better economy and production get tech that is so much cheaper and counters so many things? Infestors just do way too many things too well and roach infestor takes way too much to deal with imo. In some ways this is the same problem with terran, while mules do provide them with tons of late game minerals, the terran late game units and tech are very gas heavy, and take forever to produce and if they trade armies with them, they will die before they can reproduce as powerful an army as compared to protoss or zerg. Also, terrans upgrades are split up much more, air, bio, mech. So when they transition into late game units they are behind on upgrades. /end balance whine  | ||
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kappadevin
United States284 Posts
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EzPz
Scotland64 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:47 kappadevin wrote: I like that the other races are getting buffs to their underused units, but where's the Hydralisk off creep speed buff? If they made Hydralisks faster off of creep, you would actually see them used more in the mid game, and they wouldn't have to buff their damage or hp or anything. Oh well, I am at least glad we get a build time buff for Ultralisks, maybe they'll actually be more viable late game. So then Zerg could rock protoss in the mid game with another units besides the infestor? Since the hydra hard counters every gateway unit. | ||
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kappadevin
United States284 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:48 EzPz wrote: If these values stay the same then i think it sucks too be Terran! I dont know what too think of the helion nerf, in my opinion a speed decrease could maybe be more important? lol That's just my opinion. I'll be honest, I am getting pretty tired of GomTvTvTvT, and while it may not be true everywhere, in Korea, the Terrans are dominating the other races, maybe not in the actual tournament, but in the qualifiers they are. If these changes to terran bring more racial diversity to the GSL, I am all for it. Nothing against my Terran brothers. :D | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:15 lundell100 wrote: This would actually be good. So irritating when I hear zergs complain about forcefields, and that it prevents micro, when they can stack fungal growth, that just seems hypocritical. (And I know infestors are a higher tech blabla, but w/e). Having like a small second cooldown or so after the first fungal has ended would probably solve everything, because then the person who was on the receiving-end of the fungal would have a small window of time to spread out his units. You call out people for being hypocritical and then propose a change to fungal only? Do you know what hypocritical means? | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:52 Plansix wrote: So then Zerg could rock protoss in the mid game with another units besides the infestor? Since the hydra hard counters every gateway unit. which is why every single viable protoss strategy gets AoE, which wrecks hydralisks. it would be nice if zerg had an aggressive AA unit which didn't require a spire, hydralisks kind of need help. | ||
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kappadevin
United States284 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:52 Plansix wrote: So then Zerg could rock protoss in the mid game with another units besides the infestor? Since the hydra hard counters every gateway unit. If that was true, why doesn't every zerg player go Hydralisks against protoss? Speed be damned, if they hard countered everything then why wouldn't you see them used more? Hydras are good against gateway units, but they should be, they are a tier above them. Just like Hydras get countered by Colossi and Templar. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:54 Treemonkeys wrote: You call out people for being hypocritical and then propose a change to fungal only? Do you know what hypocritical means? I think he does. Since zerg spent a long time complaining about Protoss when they were losing to them. Now that the reverse it true, the response has mostly been "play better". | ||
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ContactKilla
United States194 Posts
All races are flexible but it just seems the Terran is "OP" because of all the different builds that are used. That doesnt make Terran OP. I always see people saying "Wtf why did your blue flames kill all my lings or lots or marines?" Because thats what that unit is used for and go a different strategy to counter them. Its just silly that instead of evolving the gameplay, we patch it instead. Every race has had their buff and nerf but this one just seems stupid. If you cant deal with these units i feel its something that your doing wrong not that the game is "Imba" Every race has a counter for every build against each other. Its also stupid that all these buffs for Toss, and yet they still complain about they are the weakest race. Yeah thats why Huk just kicked Nadas ass. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Anyways so can someone tell me what's the fungal nerf is for. It still kills marines and most p units in the same number of hits and he units hat take more fg hits were always NP. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:58 Plansix wrote: I think he does. Since zerg spent a long time complaining about Protoss when they were losing to them. Now that the reverse it true, the response has mostly been "play better". What does any of that have to do with adding a cooldown for fungal? | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 27 2011 03:57 kappadevin wrote: If that was true, why doesn't every zerg player go Hydralisks against protoss? Speed be damned, if they hard countered everything then why wouldn't you see them used more? Hydras are good against gateway units, but they should be, they are a tier above them. Just like Hydras get countered by Colossi and Templar. Stupid argument. See: Marine - Immortal Zergling - Stalker | ||
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