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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 188

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Pheo
Profile Joined September 2010
United States13 Posts
August 26 2011 16:53 GMT
#3741
Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes.


o.m.g.

thank you.
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
August 26 2011 17:00 GMT
#3742
On August 27 2011 01:53 Tennet wrote:
I wish they would remove the stun from Fungal, most the qqing about it is because of chain fungaling..

That was my thought. Remove stun from fungal, but the actual spell stays with the targeted units even as they run away.

Wait... digging through my memory banks... wasn't fungal initially a slow? Slow was pretty damn annoying and that still endeared itself to chain fungals.

Here is my proposal:

Fungal Growth no longer stuns, but stays with the targeted units as they move. Damage reverted to 36 (+30% vs Armored).
Tennet
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1458 Posts
August 26 2011 17:02 GMT
#3743
On August 27 2011 02:00 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 01:53 Tennet wrote:
I wish they would remove the stun from Fungal, most the qqing about it is because of chain fungaling..

That was my thought. Remove stun from fungal, but the actual spell stays with the targeted units even as they run away.

Wait... digging through my memory banks... wasn't fungal initially a slow? Slow was pretty damn annoying and that still endeared itself to chain fungals.

Here is my proposal:

Fungal Growth no longer stuns, but stays with the targeted units as they move. Damage reverted to 36 (+30% vs Armored).

I only remember it being an 8 second stun doing less dps
"The harder it gets, the more you need to focus on the basics." - Seo Gyung Jong
MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
August 26 2011 17:02 GMT
#3744
On August 26 2011 23:24 NecrosTheSecond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2011 23:09 Hypemeup wrote:
On August 26 2011 23:04 brembo wrote:
On August 26 2011 22:47 Lockindal wrote:
Rax build time increase is pretty pesky. 6 pool vs terran is now.... lol


its funny how terran didnt have to worry about any early game pressure or proxys, and now u are QQing like babys about it, LEARN to SCOUT... in this patch Terran will have a little of his own medicine.


Yep defo a L2P issue when you get 6pooled on a 4player map and scout them last, Npnp.

-_-

Thats how protoss is right now lol, ur almost forced to send a second scout if you dont scout them first.

all the more reason they should remove close positions T______T one less place for you guys to scout.
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
August 26 2011 17:06 GMT
#3745
I've always liked the idea of having fungal decrease the speed of affected units by 50% with subsequent casts having a multiplicative effect. This would allow for some pretty cool tricks with the opponent's army if they try to run, but you would need more infestors before you could completely lock down an army.
MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
August 26 2011 17:07 GMT
#3746
On August 27 2011 02:06 Xanbatou wrote:
I've always liked the idea of having fungal decrease the speed of affected units by 50% with subsequent casts having a multiplicative effect. This would allow for some pretty cool tricks with the opponent's army if they try to run, but you would need more infestors before you could completely lock down an army.

would probably not matter since in most situations nowadays you're fungaling for the damage not the stun, so stacking fungals would be a waste since the damage doesn't stack

and if the damage did stack.... *evil grin*
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
August 26 2011 17:13 GMT
#3747
On August 27 2011 02:07 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 02:06 Xanbatou wrote:
I've always liked the idea of having fungal decrease the speed of affected units by 50% with subsequent casts having a multiplicative effect. This would allow for some pretty cool tricks with the opponent's army if they try to run, but you would need more infestors before you could completely lock down an army.

would probably not matter since in most situations nowadays you're fungaling for the damage not the stun, so stacking fungals would be a waste since the damage doesn't stack

and if the damage did stack.... *evil grin*

I can see that zerg op threads flooding the forums now...
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
August 26 2011 17:14 GMT
#3748
How about: You can't stack fungals. New fungal only works after the one before expired.
If you stack an unit already under the effect of fungal, it won't activate.
wat
mburke05
Profile Joined October 2010
United States130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 17:30:35
August 26 2011 17:30 GMT
#3749
On August 27 2011 02:14 Elefanto wrote:
How about: You can't stack fungals. New fungal only works after the one before expired.
If you stack an unit already under the effect of fungal, it won't activate.


I like this alot, it also means you actually have to think about drops, rather than just f clicking twice.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
August 26 2011 17:36 GMT
#3750
On August 27 2011 02:30 mburke05 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 02:14 Elefanto wrote:
How about: You can't stack fungals. New fungal only works after the one before expired.
If you stack an unit already under the effect of fungal, it won't activate.


I like this alot, it also means you actually have to think about drops, rather than just f clicking twice.


Wait so you used to be able to just f click f click and the duration automatically doubled?!
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 17:40:40
August 26 2011 17:37 GMT
#3751
On August 27 2011 02:06 Xanbatou wrote:
I've always liked the idea of having fungal decrease the speed of affected units by 50% with subsequent casts having a multiplicative effect. This would allow for some pretty cool tricks with the opponent's army if they try to run, but you would need more infestors before you could completely lock down an army.


The problem with changing Fungal to just slowing units instead of locking them down is that every Protoss would just mass Blink Stalkers even more than they already do.

It'd be like,
"Oh you fungaled my whole army? Well too bad I'm just gonna blink units all over the place and you lose all your Infestors for nothing, GG. Oh you went for the Muta alternative? Too bad I'm still making mass Blink Stalkers"

Honestly, without Fungal Zerg would have basically nothing they could do vs mass Blink Stalker.

If you changed Fungal to just a slowing ability you'd probably also have to make it lock down a unit's special abilities to make it even worthwhile, and THAT might be incredibly OP when you stop to think about it.
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
August 26 2011 17:39 GMT
#3752
On August 27 2011 00:53 darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 00:49 [F_]aths wrote:
I think the fungal nerf mostly addresses the infestor+broods issue versus terran as Blizzard (David Kim) once mentioned that they consider that strategy too strong.


Actually, neither David Kim nor Blizzard said infestor+BL are OP. They said some players thought so.
David did say it. I think it was at the HotS press invitational.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Tennet
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1458 Posts
August 26 2011 17:39 GMT
#3753
On August 27 2011 02:37 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 02:06 Xanbatou wrote:
I've always liked the idea of having fungal decrease the speed of affected units by 50% with subsequent casts having a multiplicative effect. This would allow for some pretty cool tricks with the opponent's army if they try to run, but you would need more infestors before you could completely lock down an army.


The problem with changing Fungal to just slowing units instead of locking them down is that every Protoss would just mass Blink Stalkers even more than they already do.

It'd be like,
"Oh you fungaled my whole army? Well too bad I'm just gonna blink units all over the place and you lose all your Infestors for nothing, GG. Oh you went for the Muta alternative? Too bad I'm still making mass Blink Stalkers"

If you changed Fungal to just a slowing ability you'd probably also have to make it lock down a unit's special abilities to make it even worthwhile, and THAT would be incredibly OP when you stop to think about it.

removing the stun wouldn't necessarily remove the attributes of fungal, like preventing blink or other abilities..
"The harder it gets, the more you need to focus on the basics." - Seo Gyung Jong
Bluerain
Profile Joined April 2010
United States348 Posts
August 26 2011 17:40 GMT
#3754
On August 27 2011 01:50 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 00:58 IronBreaker wrote:
On August 27 2011 00:10 Reborn8u wrote:
Since release there has been significant nerfs to both protoss and terran's early game. For example: supply before barracks, reaper nerfs, now 5 more seconds on barracks, bunker nerfs, stim nerf. Toss has had forge build time nerf, zealot build time nerf, warp gate research nerf, pylon nerf (this does affect forge expands imo). Even some significant mid/late game nerfs, blue flame, thors, and for toss several voidray nerfs, templar energy upgrade, mothership nerf (which is now getting a buff but it's almost an irrelevant unit anyway). At the same time zerg has had a lot of buffs, roach, fungal affecting blink, completely freezing units instead of slowing, damage bonus vs armored, huge dps increase, and now they are getting an ultralisk and overseer buff.

I'm really concerned that zerg may end up with an upgrade, economy, army, and mobility advantage at every stage of the game after the 7 minute mark. Meaning Terrans + Protoss will not have the ability to do enough damage to keep zerg in check at any stage.

I don't feel the immortal and prism buff, while helpful, is going to turn protoss around in it's pathetic statistics the last few months. If I'm not mistaken protoss has had the worst statistics in tournaments and holding places in GM since the start of this year. Considering it's the most played race, that is pretty damn bad. As for terran, I think limiting the amount of powerful builds that can simply win the game in 12 minutes is good, but I'm always hesitant to agree with any nerf to a races core units or core production. I definitely think terran needs some help in the late game, seems like the weakest race after 3 bases to me.

For zerg I'd like to see fungal tuned down a bit, it fills every role right now. Zergs are going roach infestor in every matchup and doing damn good with it. I say tune down the infestor, IMO they shouldn't be born with so many abilities, some should require research (fungal,infested, and burrow move all for free) and buff hydras or corruptors. So zerg actually has to make an anti air unit to counter air units. As it is now, zergs doesn't even need them because fungal or infested terrans provide all the anti air they need as well as infestors provide detection, aoe dmg, anti-micro, anti massive unit and harass. If you removed nydus, contamination, corruption, hydras, and changelings from the game most zergs wouldn't even notice. lol.

BTW If I've forgotten anything or misrepresented any facts please feel free to correct me in a non-douche baggy manner. My memory is far from perfect.



Completely agree, man. As strange as it seems, I think Zerg is the most powerful race right now. I also agree with the Terran buffs you presented, althought I play Protoss.

I agree as well. Definitely late game it's the case once economy gets cooking. Terran and Toss usually get their wins within first 10-15 min after that it's unlikely and about to get more unlikely the way they will get ultras out on a tech switch..



original OP says zerg gets "lots" of buffs and then names roach and infestor which is two.... so two is a lot? zerg has also gotten major nerfs, ones that stick out to me are roach food nerf and armor nerf. queen speed as well as spine/spore burrow time are all small nerfs that made a noticeable impact. corruptors no longer being able to "goop" was also a very important nerf but it was OP before i suppose. plus the number of buffs/nerfs a race gets is not really relevant to how strong it is anyways.

as the game gets longer, Terran is the strongest due to orbitals, planetaries, and medvac drops. orbitals give mules which requires less scvs and frees up more supply for army. planetaries + turrets enable expos to be defended w/o units and frees up more supply for "main" army. medvac drops (and maybe even nukes) are the most cost effective and supply effective harass options which also indirectly allows for more supply for the "main" army. granted this may be due to the relative weakness of the "final" Terran army. however, if T adds in ravens (pdd is so good in large battles, HSM can be good late game too which allows for energy buildup), and maybe 2-3 battlecruisers, i think the late game Terran army composition can be pretty formidable.
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
August 26 2011 17:40 GMT
#3755
On August 27 2011 02:14 Elefanto wrote:
How about: You can't stack fungals. New fungal only works after the one before expired.
If you stack an unit already under the effect of fungal, it won't activate.
You already cannot stack fungals, a new fungal just resets the timer.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 17:41:53
August 26 2011 17:41 GMT
#3756
On August 27 2011 02:36 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 02:30 mburke05 wrote:
On August 27 2011 02:14 Elefanto wrote:
How about: You can't stack fungals. New fungal only works after the one before expired.
If you stack an unit already under the effect of fungal, it won't activate.


I like this alot, it also means you actually have to think about drops, rather than just f clicking twice.


Wait so you used to be able to just f click f click and the duration automatically doubled?!


i didn't double, but it overwrote the previous fungal duration.

for instance if you cast fungal, it lasts 4 seconds. if you cast another on top of it,
after 2 seconds passed, without casting another fungal, the total duration
would be 6 seconds (of course damage calculation as well)

€: ^ the damage doesn't stack, but the duration and the stunlock does
wat
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
August 26 2011 17:42 GMT
#3757
They can remove the stun from fungal the exact same moment they remove the marine and blink from the game. Or Zerg; getting rid of that would work too.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
August 26 2011 17:44 GMT
#3758
With no stun for fungal you must add speed upgrade for hydralisk and decrease it food cap by 1
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 17:48:36
August 26 2011 17:47 GMT
#3759
On August 27 2011 02:39 Tennet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2011 02:37 BeeNu wrote:
On August 27 2011 02:06 Xanbatou wrote:
I've always liked the idea of having fungal decrease the speed of affected units by 50% with subsequent casts having a multiplicative effect. This would allow for some pretty cool tricks with the opponent's army if they try to run, but you would need more infestors before you could completely lock down an army.


The problem with changing Fungal to just slowing units instead of locking them down is that every Protoss would just mass Blink Stalkers even more than they already do.

It'd be like,
"Oh you fungaled my whole army? Well too bad I'm just gonna blink units all over the place and you lose all your Infestors for nothing, GG. Oh you went for the Muta alternative? Too bad I'm still making mass Blink Stalkers"

If you changed Fungal to just a slowing ability you'd probably also have to make it lock down a unit's special abilities to make it even worthwhile, and THAT would be incredibly OP when you stop to think about it.

removing the stun wouldn't necessarily remove the attributes of fungal, like preventing blink or other abilities..


Yeah, I get what you're saying but at the same time that seems just really weird to me. I know not everything in SC2 "makes sense" but that'd just be bizarre. Like, currently it makes sense that Stalkers can't blink or Roaches can't Burrow or Marines can't jump back into a Medivac because they basically get rooted in place. Denying all those things just because they move slower is just...nonsensical.

Not to mention as it stands every race already has abilities that "deny micro" even though some are arguably stronger than others. Protoss gets Force Field, Zerg has Fungal, Terran has whatever that Thor ability is.
haitike
Profile Joined June 2009
Spain2722 Posts
August 26 2011 17:48 GMT
#3760
On August 27 2011 02:44 Existor wrote:
With no stun for fungal you must add speed upgrade for hydralisk and decrease it food cap by 1


That would be awesome... I miss hidralisks...
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