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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
I can see the buff having a pretty big impact on PvT though, the usefulness of the Immortal will extend much later into the game now. Although EMP is quite effective against Immortals (as it is against all Protoss units), an Immortal actually fares better without its shields than a Stalker in the same position, so Ghost usage doesn't necessarily invalidate them. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 27 2011 14:48 Alzadar wrote: I don't think the Immortal buff will actually be significant at all in PvZ. Midgame PvZ battles of mass speed Roach vs Stalker/Sentry/Immortal are all about closing distances for the Zerg, that's why Sentries are so important. If the Zerg can get his Roach ball to hug right up against the Protoss, it is over, lights out, good night, GG. Roaches are extremly cost effective against every Protoss unit (yes, even Immortals) so long as they are all attacking. After the patch, if the Roaches have closed the distance successfully, obviously the Immortal's extra range won't matter. And if the Roaches are far enough away that the Immortals can't attack, well then the Protoss is likely in good shape anyway. I can see the buff having a pretty big impact on PvT though, the usefulness of the Immortal will extend much later into the game now. Although EMP is quite effective against Immortals (as it is against all Protoss units), an Immortal actually fares better without its shields than a Stalker in the same position, so Ghost usage doesn't necessarily invalidate them. It helps when you have a large stalker/immortal ball and your immortals decided to get stuck in the very back because they move so slow compared to stalkers, so they start getting their disco on while everything else dies. Also they'll get their first shots off faster as the roaches come in. It's not a mindboggling difference but every little thing helps, mid-game versus mass roach is always pretty annoying. | ||
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ChampionEast14
United States27 Posts
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RaQIl
Macedonia25 Posts
I mean if Blizzard want to make reaches less effective they just need to nerf them and not buff the immortal and if they are trying to change it for PvP, then just make blink research tier 3 and put it into dark shrine or something like that. The mothership is a joke, I mean at least make it so that it can't be taken by neural parasite, otherwise what is the point. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 27 2011 15:01 RaQIl wrote: apart from the stalker blink change and hellion pre-igniter I don't like these changes. I mean if Blizzard want to make reaches less effective they just need to nerf them and not buff the immortal and if they are trying to change it for PvP, then just make blink research tier 3 and put it into dark shrine or something like that. The mothership is a joke, I mean at least make it so that it can't be taken by neural parasite, otherwise what is the point. Thank god you don't work for Blizzard. | ||
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Mysticesper
United States1183 Posts
It might actually require FF micro and some movement to hit immortals merged with your stalker army now, otherwise they will hurl their 50 damage shots at your armored units if left unchecked, which is how you want to use them in that situation, and 5-range limited that. | ||
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quaren
Italy19 Posts
On August 27 2011 15:01 RaQIl wrote: apart from the stalker blink change and hellion pre-igniter I don't like these changes. I mean if Blizzard want to make reaches less effective they just need to nerf them and not buff the immortal and if they are trying to change it for PvP, then just make blink research tier 3 and put it into dark shrine or something like that. The mothership is a joke, I mean at least make it so that it can't be taken by neural parasite, otherwise what is the point. Blizzard has publicly stated that the mothership is a gimmick unit, it is not meant to be a serious, I have a solid build centered around the mothership. I think that this mothership change has more to do non-1v1 games for the casuals to use the mothership and have fun to be honest. Reapers were an example of being changed since they were not being used as Blizzard intended. Before mass reaper was an overly effective strat, but Blizzard only wanted a couple of reapers to be used for harass/scout purposes. Same with HSM, I am pretty sure that Blizz wants people to use HSM as a gimmick strat, not to have it as a cornerstone of any TvX matchup. The weird thing for me is that I recall Browder saying that the immortal was supposed to function as a pure meatshield and just soak shots, but the attack was actually the more useful aspect of the unit and people used it more for that, contrary to their design. Now though, the patch for immortals makes their attack even more useful while not making their tanking any better further diverging the unit from the original design, guess they just gave up there and went with what is? | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 27 2011 15:25 quaren wrote: Blizzard has publicly stated that the mothership is a gimmick unit, it is not meant to be a serious, I have a solid build centered around the mothership. I think that this mothership change has more to do non-1v1 games for the casuals to use the mothership and have fun to be honest. Reapers were an example of being changed since they were not being used as Blizzard intended. Before mass reaper was an overly effective strat, but Blizzard only wanted a couple of reapers to be used for harass/scout purposes. Same with HSM, I am pretty sure that Blizz wants people to use HSM as a gimmick strat, not to have it as a cornerstone of any TvX matchup. The weird thing for me is that I recall Browder saying that the immortal was supposed to function as a pure meatshield and just soak shots, but the attack was actually the more useful aspect of the unit and people used it more for that, contrary to their design. Now though, the patch for immortals makes their attack even more useful while not making their tanking any better further diverging the unit from the original design, guess they just gave up there and went with what is? It seems likely that they just went with how it turned out to be working, and I think they said it was a unit that was likely to get major changes in HotS. | ||
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Alabasern
United States4005 Posts
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Iggnite
Canada288 Posts
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TerranMeApart
United States27 Posts
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
Wonder if there will be few others or not. The weird thing for me is that I recall Browder saying that the immortal was supposed to function as a pure meatshield and just soak shots, but the attack was actually the more useful aspect of the unit and people used it more for that, contrary to their design. Now though, the patch for immortals makes their attack even more useful while not making their tanking any better further diverging the unit from the original design, guess they just gave up there and went with what is? My guess is that they were still Ok with the Immortal being used as a vs Armored dps unit, also making big changes to it might have been risky in their opinions (this is not a late late tech like mothership and it is needed in the protoss arsenal). My guess is the +1 range is a buff overall for a slightly better use of the immortal to make the unit less clunky. I don't think it's aimed for a specific situation. They might just feel that it was a meh unit that is very expensive but often made due to robo tech for observer, but the player using it was sometimes at a disadvantage (PvP and PvT) if the unit was just strafing behind stalkers. We'll see how it helps Protoss in the future and what other changes might appear in this patch. | ||
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InVerno
258 Posts
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enemy2010
Germany1972 Posts
Is the PTR online right now, with these new patchnotes? And there is only a PTR for the US server, right? | ||
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Striding Strider
United Kingdom787 Posts
An idea I've been playing around in my head was adding second or . of a second to each hardened shield activation which made them invulnerable (or reduced damage taken considerably) for a very short period of time (. of a second) so that focusing them down wasn't nearly as effective. Probably imba, but just throwing ideas out there. | ||
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springtree
74 Posts
On August 27 2011 17:50 enemy2010 wrote: Quick question: Is the PTR online right now, with these new patchnotes? And there is only a PTR for the US server, right? It is online and yes only on US. They keep saying "soon", but I doubt it's a priority. They get enough feedback from the US to keep them happy, I suppose. *grumble* | ||
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enemy2010
Germany1972 Posts
On August 27 2011 18:01 springtree wrote: It is online and yes only on US. They keep saying "soon", but I doubt it's a priority. They get enough feedback from the US to keep them happy, I suppose. *grumble* They keep saying "soon" to what? To have a PTR in other countries?  | ||
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doomed
Australia420 Posts
love the patch though! both balance and the new interface changes. | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On August 25 2011 10:14 awu25 wrote: General Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. PROTOSS Immortal Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Mothership Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online. Stalker Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. Warp Prism Shields increased from 40 to 100. TERRAN Barracks Build time increased from 60 to 65. Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Raven Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. ZERG Infestor Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). Overseer Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Ultralisk Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Notable non-balance changes: + Show Spoiler + When a building is canceled or salvaged the minerals returned will be displayed at the building location for the owner, for enemy players a floating text will be displayed. (I believe this works like single player when you pick up floating mineral patches. You will see a +50 in blue and the opponent will need to be in the vicinity to see this floating text) Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section. Only allow friends to send me invites. Only allow friends to send me chat messages. Set status to Busy when playing a game. (They make it easy for MLG) Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes. Issuing new orders to charging zealots will cause them to lose the charge buff. Attack upgrades are now retained by units controlled by Neural Parasite. SCVs can no longer repair themselves while inside a Bunker or Medivac. Baneling's Attack Structure ability is now a toggle to Enable/Disable Attack Structure. The toggle will determine whether structures are valid targets for auto-attack. This change fixes an issue which caused Banelings to prioritize buildings over hostile units. If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes. Full patch notes: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662 Thoughts: Looks like hellions won't be so popular anymore Interesting contaminate change, didn't think many people used it, let alone thought it needed a change. I like the general change. It's more a nerf to Protoss than anything else really. When busting up a ramp, Terran almost always uses scans or a flying unit/building of some sort. Zergs will use Overlords. Protoss is the only race really affected heavily by this so that their pure gateway busts/all ins (4 gate and 3 gate Blink Stalkers) won't really work anymore. 3 gate Void of course will still be very powerful with proper control. Why buff the Immortal? It's a VERY good unit as it currently is. The only way to make it better is to let it shoot up, make it fly, give it splash damage, or any combination of the previously mentioned. It tears through a ridiculous amount of things as it is. Buffing it when people are already hating on Protoss isn't the way to go... If they're trying to give the Immortal more play time (like they did with the Archon), then simply nerf the Colossus. A MAJOR reason why the Immortal sees minimal play is because MOST of your production time on a Robotics Facility will be spent on Colossi as they do ridiculous amounts of damage (100% no friendly-fire splash at 9 range A-move ftw). Immortals currently do what? 20/A50 (+5/+5)? 30/A50 (+5/+5)? Even versus non-Armored units, they do quite a damn bit of damage and they don't overkill (similar to Marines and Siege Tanks). And of course, they DEMOLISH armored units (evaporating Bunkers ftw). If Blizzard wants the Immortal to see more play, you either make the Immortal broken (which it's already pretty close to), or you nerf the Colossus. It IS that simple. With High Templars/Archons, you had to choose between something that did a lot of damage from long, unavoidable range every once in a while, or a unit that could do a lot of damage if it could get into the fight, but instead gets kited all day and acts as nothing more than a ranged meat shield. Now the choice is between steady, short range damage or long range, periodic damage. With the Immortal vs the Colossus, it's high, single-target damage at reasonable range versus moderately high, 100% splash damage, at very long range. You get 8 Colossi, and you clear ENTIRE GROUND ARMIES quickly. You get 8 Immortals, you evaporate the front line quickly. you get 3-4 Colossi, you demolish entire ground armies. With 3-4 Immortals, you have high damage but you won't get nearly as much bang for your buck. Immortals are only made now for busts and timing attacks (except in PvZ where many Zergs like to make nothing but Roaches). Nerf the Colossi, and the game gets a WHOLE LOT BETTER. Zergs can go back to using Hydras and Lings, Terrans won't have to blind make Vikings and can instead go into macro mode instead of trying to hit timings to deny Colossi builds in order to find out if you NEED Vikings and drop the enemy Colossus count to give yourself the time to make those Vikings. Half the Protoss builds won't simply be A-move, Force Field enemy armies in half, warp in reinforcements, check if Robotics Facility is still making Colossus and rallied to main army, keep A-moving. I don't mind Protoss having a siege unit, but compared to the Siege Tank and Broodlord, the Colossus is WAY too mobile and does way too much easy DPS. The Siege Tank needs to spend 4 seconds to go into siege mode. As a result, they have to slowly leapfrog their way into battle or force a battle into their location in order to be successful. Broodlords are INSANELY slow and VERY expensive so not only are you delaying your army's movement by using them, but you have to spend your time baby-sitting them (while you also baby-sit your Infestors that are babysitting the Broodlords). If you want to run away, it's a difficult task and you're going to lose your Broodlords or your army to defend the Broodlords. Protoss literally walks into battle, forces whatever sort of engagement they want through force fields (either keeping the whole army in place, peeling off sections to fry instantly, or using Force Fields to run away and protect the entire army). Nerf the Colossus movement speed (like the Reaver) and reduce it's splash damage or it's attack speed (preferably that ridiculous range as well, so a handful of units can actually walk around to try to pick them off without failing horribly). Of the 3 Siege units, it currently does by far the most damage (except when Broodlords attack into a group of Sieged Tanks, but the Tanks are doing most of the work there). With reduced movement speeds, Protoss players will have to slow down their push to wait for the Colossi or use Warp Prisms to move them around (making them keep track of the Warp Prisms as well). The result? The enemy has a little more time to prepare for that scary ass Protoss deathball outside their door, which is what you SHOULD have when facing these scary ass siege type units (Broodlord, Siege Tank, Colossus). For the Mothership, I consider this more of a fix than balance. It's not aimed towards strategic gameplay as much as improving quality and flow of gameplay. Blink nerf isn't really totally necessary is it? The deadliest Blink timings I've heard of are the 2 base Blink with +2 6 Gate attack in PvZ. I don't think 30 seconds will change things too much as I rarely see Protoss players line up Blink and their +2 upgrades... Often Blink is started around when +1 is about to finish, which is well before +2 will finish (about half done). It will nerf the 1 base timings, though I think people are doing reasonably well versus those as it is. Maybe it's another nerf to PvP 1 base gateway plays. The only issue I can think of with Blink is in its 1 base timings which, although scary, aren't TOO bad are they? Warp Prism buff isn't really necessary. Warp Prism play shouldn't be encouraged through buffs. It's pretty freakin' good as it is. It SHOULD be a standard and staple play in Protoss play. The fact that it isn't being used just shows that players either don't need it or would much rather spend the production time in their Robotics Facilities on other things (cough cough* Colossus). I mean, I guess it's not so bad as long as it doesn't end up like the Infestor where they gave it a large buff to make it broken, then a good while later nerfed it in a way that didn't address the issue, but addressed another issue. Then FINALLY, like a whole season or a season and a half later, they finally decide to nerf it back down (with the damage output actually being lower than original except the +4 to armored). I just hope they don't leave Protoss broken for as long just to encourage players to realize that the unit was actually good all along. The Barracks nerf... So now we have an idle time in our CC of 5 seconds... Great... What do you guys want to hit with this? 2 Rax timing? You're going to weaken Terran's already weak SCV production to hit a build that most high level Zergs are already more than comfortable defending against? This is a really sensitive area right here because if we nerf Marines, how in the hell do you hold vs 3 Gate Void? If you don't nerf Marines, you nerf the Barracks, which slows down the Terran's already slow economy... I don't really see a point to this other than to fuck Terran over because 2 Rax isn't really a successful build except on a map that allows building placement abuse or the Zerg is just bad. Any later form of Barracks pressure I don't think will be too greatly affected by this nerf because it will only be 5 seconds... What's 5 seconds going to do to save you from a 2 Rax pressure into 4 Rax that you're already not prepared for? What's 5 seconds going to do to save you from a 5, 6, or 7 Rax all in if you're not already prepared for it? Is this nerfing Reaper or Marauder timings? Just make the Tech Lab addon longer to make by 5 seconds. I like the Hellion nerf. You can still 2-shot lings, but you can't 2-shot workers anymore. It also makes bio TvT more viable now (because mech was just STOMPING the matchup). However, from a Zerg perspective, you're still in the hole. Sure, Blue Flame Hellions are SLIGHTLY less dangerous vs your mineral line, but they still DEMOLISH lings, which makes you still build those Roaches you don't want to make. But the SlayerS Hellion build seems to be relatively weak when defended properly. However, the issue is in scouting it. Maybe the timing on the upgrade should be nerfed? Improve the Overseer speed? There needs to be something that will make it easier for Zerg to scout whether the Terran is doing the standard Tank/Marine push or the Hellion/Marine elevator. Maybe the fact that you require an Armory for the upgrade? I have no idea... The Raven buff also seems a bit unnecessary, since the Raven is a good unit, but it might also be necessary since Seeker Missles take so long to hit their target (if they were even able to). The LONG AWAITED INFESTOR NERF! Too bad I'm already used to dealing with them (Tanks OP, Infestors shouldn't be considered Armored). I like the Overseer change. It becomes really rough to get that 100 gas for the Overseer sometimes, especially early on. Sadly, I don't really think Contaminate needed to be changed. In the current setup, if you somehow managed enough gas to permanently lock down a Hatchery's production, your opponent SHOULD be punished for not hurting you for floating that gas. But, with Overseers becoming significantly easier to produce, it makes much more sense to make Contaminate that much more expensive to use. Floating 300-600 gas for 3-6 Overseers is one thing. Saving 300 gas for 6 Overseers to severely hamper the production of 2 Hatcheries is another. It's basically being raised so that roughly the same resources (in gas) is required to do a Hatchery production lock. But your initial Contamination will be severely delayed. Again, I REALLY like the Ultralisk buff... Anyone else feel it's a little bit ridiculous for a Zerg unit to take 70 seconds to produce? It's good, yes. But it's also clunky and melee. I've always felt that 70 seconds is a bit much for any Zerg unit when the race is MEANT to swarm and remax. It's a pretty large timing where if you dump your remax resources into Ultralisks, you have a LARGE supply doing NOTHING. It's the last thing you want as Zerg... For the privacy changes, I feel it's REALLY good for pros and streamers. Ever feel bad for your streamer when he or she has to deal with a fag spamming party invites to the guy and leaving before the guy can get blocked? The change in SCVs repairing themselves in Bunkers and Medivacs is a great fix. It's not a huge abuse, but it does make Bunker rushing a TINY bit better with good control and extra Bunker space. But have they fixed it so that Hellions, Tanks, and Vikings can't be repaired in a Medivac? I've been noticing the Drone bug for a long time... I felt it was really stupid for someone to block a Zerg's expansion, have the Drone ALMOST hit the blocking unit, then miss... What the hell? Glad they finally fixed it. The Baneling change I'll trust in them to be a good change... I don't know what to say until I see it... Can't say it'll make a big difference whenever I use them. The control group spam is both a good and bad thing. In a relatively short statement, it discourages lower level players from spamming 123123123123123123123123 to put on a show when they can't even see what happens on their screen that quickly. Quick is good, but faster than you can work with is pointless. Only your most basic actions will be counted (as well as your click spam! yay! -.-). As a result, you can REALLY see how you are compared to top players in terms of your multi-tasking, your ability to do small actions (like building a Pylon or Supply Depot as quickly as possible), and so on. But the APM counter will be even farther from BW than before... Players new to the scene(?) will think BW players are INSANELY better because their APM will be 3x what players on SC2 will have. Then some people on BW might even use it as evidence that SC2 is so much easier that you only need like 120-150 APM to play it at the top level whereas top BW players are in the high 300s, maybe even breaking into 400 sometimes. But bottom line, NaDa's ~400 BW APM will now be reported as 120 in SC2. (Has anyone seen that guy's hotkey usage? It's ridic! 2a(click)342a(click)352a(click)34 over and over when he's microing and all that at the speed that a normal person spams 12312312313123. It's freakin' insane how fast he is with the keyboard.) | ||
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
On August 27 2011 14:44 Heavenly wrote: I'd be okay with that if my gateway units could stim and warp prisms healed. ... sounds like you should play Terran and he should play Protoss... | ||
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