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I'm just sick to death of the trolling, ad-hominems, flaming, boasting, etc, etc, etc about leagues. Every region has different skill levels for the leagues (KR > EU > AM overall), every player is different and needs to improve on different things to get better, every league has players with all sorts of different game understanding and mechanics. Some players play a lot of their melees in customs and use ladder to offrace and test cheesy new builds. You can be "Diamond Skill" in gold league easily. There's plenty of High Diamonds who are better than a lot of masters, one base superheroes or lucky promotions and plenty of gold players of all ranges who would get owned by a high bronze player with a good sense of scouting.
Stop making generalized comments about players based on their current league placing and stop making such a big deal out of ladder ranks. I'm currently in European silver, who could easily compete on European platinum ladder and I am let down mostly by my mechanics and being distracted in games from split second decision making, I theorycraft at a very high level, as I spend at least 20x the time I do laddering watching streams, pro games, discussing starcraft 2, etc. When I do ladder, I see a lot of protoss's who cannon turtle on one base and try to mass void ray. I'm not trying to bash on less experienced users, but we are not the same. And guess what, my ladder rank doesn't affect my ability to talk about this on a fucking thread. That's the entire point I'm trying to make. I'm not "A Silver Player", I'm ME. I'm talking as an individual person.
This thread isn't about me though, it's about using the ladder as just a way to label players and act like everyone is the same. Please judge players on what they say and do, if anything, and not some arbitrary icon on their profile.
You can't say "oh, it says on sc2 ranks than your in <insert league> so you suck at <insert thing> and need to practice <instert thing 2>. I'm in <insert slightly higher league, possibly even on a different server> so I am better than you lolol nub." That's not how life, or the sc2 community works.
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On August 25 2011 08:21 EneMal wrote:
I'm just sick to death of the trolling, ad-hominems, flaming, boasting, etc, etc, etc about leagues. Every region has different skill levels for the leagues (KR > EU > AM overall), every player is different and needs to improve on different things to get better, every league has players with all sorts of different game understanding and mechanics. Some players play a lot of their melees in customs and use ladder to offrace and test cheesy new builds. You can be "Diamond Skill" in gold league easily. There's plenty of High Diamonds who are better than a lot of masters, one base superheroes or lucky promotions and plenty of gold players of all ranges who would get owned by a high bronze player with a good sense of scouting.
Stop making generalized comments about players based on their current league placing and stop making such a big deal out of ladder ranks. I'm currently in European silver, who could easily compete on European platinum ladder and I am let down mostly by my mechanics and being distracted in games from split second decision making, I theorycraft at a very high level, as I spend at least 20x the time I do laddering watching streams, pro games, discussing starcraft 2, etc.
This thread isn't about me though, it's about using the ladder as just a way to label players and act like everyone is the same. Please judge players on what they say and do, if anything, and not some arbitrary icon on their profile.
Bolded undermines the rest of your post.
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Your preaching to the choir bud.
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Come back once you actually league up and see if you have the same opinion.
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Well, if someone is in silver and just does not get promoted, then his skill level is silver. If you're as good as diamond players, then you will end up in diamond league ... if you do not end up there, then you're just not as good, as simple as that. Winning against one diamond player doesn't make you as good tho, that's what you should keep in mind.
You will get promoted, if you manage to constantly win vs. x-league players.
This thread seems more like a rant than anything else I guess :-(
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@One Above The One Above: This is exactly what I'm talking about.
@Above: If I laddered more competitvely, I could go up leagues extremely fast. Especially if I veto'd 3 of the awful maps. But I don't want to do that. This is what I mean. Imagine how many players wouldn't have been promoted if they didn't have a particular map veto'd. What if they got that map on the game that would have caused them to be promoted? 2 players have equal skill, one of them vetos maps bad for his race and the other doesn't. One of them might be a higher league but they WOULDN'T be better. This is what I fucking mean.
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Its just a game bro, and btw making petty excuses about your play doesnt help your whole plea.
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On August 25 2011 08:27 EneMal wrote:
^ This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Word up bro. Commentors like that put me off the most.
I've abandoned participating in online forums for these reasons. Haters, trolls, melvins & back seat mods don't make it a pleasant place. The internet just isn't meant to be a means of creating a deep community.
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1. Of course ladder rank isn't a perfect indicator of skill but more often than not it will give you a good ballpark indication.
2. Sc2 can be deceptively simple, so you may think you know a lot more than you actually do if you don't play games and constantly put your theory into practical use. For ever 50 players that say they know a lot but are held back by their mechanics / lack of play time etc, maybe 3-4 might actually be correct in their assertion.
If someone isn't good at the game (and no, Silver isn't good, neither is platinum), then they should try to refrain from taking serious part in strategy discussions and accept that their views have much less validity than those of a grandmaster player would, for example. I don't know why this is so hard to understand =/. Hell, I'm in low master league and I don't think I've ever contributed to the strat forum cause I know I suck relatively speaking.
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Your ladder rank doesn't determine how qualified you are to talk about something. Your skill does.
But here's a hint: if you have played more than 30 games since your last major jump in skill, and you aren't getting matched up against masters level opponents or higher, you aren't going to have as valid points simply because something that you think is unstoppable is only hard for you to fend off because you don't have as good macro or really basic unit control as you should.
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On August 25 2011 08:21 EneMal wrote:
I am let down mostly by my mechanics and being distracted in games from split second decision making
Welcome to starcraft. If you can't do these things, you belong where you are.
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If it irritates you so much, don't make a thread to vent your frustrations but actually spend more than 1/20 of the time you watch streams playing. Pretty simple solution. Diamond is easy to get into for anyone that supposedly can theorycraft at such a high level, and mechanics are not really that hard at anything below masters.
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if you're silver then you're silver, stop making excuses
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United States12237 Posts
Not everyone plays at the same skill level every game, and sometimes people use strategies they're not used to or that are very risky and end up getting punished for it. Over time though, those things become statistical noise. League icons are generally solid indicators of a player's skill as long as they are actively playing and as long as they've held that icon for a while.
This is really blog material though.
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On August 25 2011 08:23 pwncakery wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 08:21 EneMal wrote:
I'm just sick to death of the trolling, ad-hominems, flaming, boasting, etc, etc, etc about leagues. Every region has different skill levels for the leagues (KR > EU > AM overall), every player is different and needs to improve on different things to get better, every league has players with all sorts of different game understanding and mechanics. Some players play a lot of their melees in customs and use ladder to offrace and test cheesy new builds. You can be "Diamond Skill" in gold league easily. There's plenty of High Diamonds who are better than a lot of masters, one base superheroes or lucky promotions and plenty of gold players of all ranges who would get owned by a high bronze player with a good sense of scouting.
Stop making generalized comments about players based on their current league placing and stop making such a big deal out of ladder ranks. I'm currently in European silver, who could easily compete on European platinum ladder and I am let down mostly by my mechanics and being distracted in games from split second decision making, I theorycraft at a very high level, as I spend at least 20x the time I do laddering watching streams, pro games, discussing starcraft 2, etc.
This thread isn't about me though, it's about using the ladder as just a way to label players and act like everyone is the same. Please judge players on what they say and do, if anything, and not some arbitrary icon on their profile. Bolded undermines the rest of your post.
QFT this is just another low-leaguer yelling about how he can think about the game right up there with nestea, mvp and bomber, it's just that his hands are too darn slow. I'm sorry but that's not how it works, nebulous theorycraft based on no high level experience will never ever match up to strategic thinking based on actually playing high level games, you may be you but you are also in silver and as such have almost certainly never had to micro macro or strategize at a high enough level to truly understand what it takes, what it's like, and what the strengths and flaws of different things are, hearing artosis talk about it only gets you so far.
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Sure the system has faults , but it's still a good way to estimate how good a player is. Tbh you're just coming off as a troll/flamer yourself with that post.
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Yeah man.. I've been playing for a year.. I'm high bronze and I, too, am sick of people telling me I can't have an opinion on balance. I have just enough of a right to determine that marauders and infestors need major nerfs and zerg needs a new unit. I watch 4 hours of Destiny a day and I consider myself a pro; I just need a new mouse and keyboard to make grand masters.
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I assure you that if you're really good, you'll win every game on searing crater as Zerg if you're in silver league. So I cannot see the map choices to make a difference in that kind of leagues. It's not like you can veto EVERY map you don't like. It's only 3 vetos and 10? maps.
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I agree with pwncakery. don't include your mechanics and decision making as an excuse why you're not in plat league. those are skill required to become a better player and to rank up. However, I agree that leagues do not reflect the skill of 100% of the population as you have said people may just want to random or don't take it seriously.
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I am let down from being higher than platinum by them, not from being higher than silver, where I currently am. If you actually bet money on it, I'd have a reason to go to gold by the end of tonight. But I have no motivation to ladder at the moment, I'm not doing it just to get aproval by idiots with no understanding of the game.
@TheSubtle: Post ignored because you live in canada and play on the AM server and made comments about the EU server and acted like it was the same as the AM one, which proves you didn't read my OP.
@Mage: I'M NOT SAYING MY MECHANICS ARE STOPPING ME FROM BEING IN PLATINUM! OR MY DECISION MAKING! THEY ARE STOPPING ME FROM PLAYING AT HIGHER THAN PLATINUM! THE ONLY THING STOPPING ME FROM BEING IN PLATINUM LEAGUE AT THE FUCKING MOMENT IS THAT I CBA TO LADDER FOR IT
@Kuni: Close positions searing crater. 2gate into 4gate. Scouted them last. There isn't even time to make a quarter of a cycle of units or a fifth of a spine crawler in the rush distance and the natural/main is impossible to defend with spines on that map anyway.
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I was platinum for a long time, but I didn't think I had the same knowledge of the game as I do now, and I didn't. I know so much more about the game about timings and everything, and my skill level at the time was platinum. Only once I played lots of games did I get better, as do most people.
I never stood by my opinions because I was plat. I am masters now and I don't think that I have the same opinions about the game, so I am glad I didn't speak too loudly about them.
You shouldn't theorycraft until you are at the very least diamond imo...
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btw, theorycrafting is generally an awful thing to do when you're in a low league because your ideas are typically incorrect due to having an incorrect view of the game (or metagame, whatever you'd like to call it) because you're not very skilled
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I'm in platinum, and I know I don't theorycraft at a high level.
I make units and attack with them and win half the time.
I'd say focus on that before you expect to be able to contribute to strategic discussions.
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I used to feel the same way when I was in Silver, and in Gold. Where when I'd play I'd say, "Well damn, I'm 100% sure I play like a Plat/Diamond player."
As I promoted/played against higher league players I really understood how I didn't know anything about the game at those higher levels. For example I'm high diamond, finally playing a couple of master league players, and I'm realizing how gimmicky my play is and how unrefined the builds are.
As douchey as some high league players may seem when they're condescending, they're still speaking from experience.
Regardless, your overall point is still good: ideas about the game should be judged on the merit of the idea, not who said it.
EDIT:
Also something I always tell myself when I feel the pressure to try and promote:
"Remember you bought this game to have fun, not to gloat about your e-penis"
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On August 25 2011 08:33 EneMal wrote:
I'm not doing it just to get aproval by idiots with no understanding of the game.
silver league player calling other people idiots with no understanding of the game
sick
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Good read, I enjoyed it! This might belong in blogs though ^^
+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2011 08:35 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 08:33 EneMal wrote:
I'm not doing it just to get aproval by idiots with no understanding of the game.
silver league player calling other people idiots with no understanding of the game sick admit it, you were waiting to say that
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On August 25 2011 08:21 EneMal wrote:. I'm currently in European silver, who could easily compete on European platinum ladder and I am let down mostly by my mechanics and being distracted in games from split second decision making
what? so you're saying you're not good enough to be in gold or plantinum because your mechanics suck. how do you think you can compete in the plantinum ladder then?
this thread makes no sense
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@Breadstick
Didn't you read his OP, he's high plat level, but he doesn't latter to get promoted easily.
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While some of your points are true like some high diamond players being better than some low master players, 90% of the time the league you are in shows your skill level. And no, you wouldn't probably be able to be in platinum, you are in silver for a reason. Once you will advance into high platinum- diamond lvl you will realize it.
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On August 25 2011 08:33 EneMal wrote:
I am let down from being higher than platinum by them, not from being higher than silver, where I currently am. If you actually bet money on it, I'd have a reason to go to gold by the end of tonight. But I have no motivation to ladder at the moment, I'm not doing it just to get aproval by idiots with no understanding of the game.
@TheSubtle: Post ignored because you live in canada and play on the AM server and made comments about the EU server and acted like it was the same as the AM one, which proves you didn't read my OP.
@Mage: I'M NOT SAYING MY MECHANICS ARE STOPPING ME FROM BEING IN PLATINUM! OR MY DECISION MAKING! THEY ARE STOPPING ME FROM PLAYING AT HIGHER THAN PLATINUM! THE ONLY THING STOPPING ME FROM BEING IN PLATINUM LEAGUE AT THE FUCKING MOMENT IS THAT I CBA TO LADDER FOR IT
@Kuni: Close positions searing crater. 2gate into 4gate. Scouted them last. There isn't even time to make a quarter of a cycle of units or a fifth of a spine crawler in the rush distance and the natural/main is impossible to defend with spines on that map anyway.
I don't get what you're trying to say. I did read the op. Are you refering to the EU > NA thing? I know that, but the skill discrepancy still isn't big enough for EU Silver to mean something in the NA server. Otherwise I have no idea what you're trying to say.
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Also before you ignore the numerous replies in this thread that disagree with your main point, at least consider for a moment that there are a lot of people disagreeing because you're wrong not because we're all idiots who haven't been where you are.
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@Emcee No....I am let down from being in EU diamond or masters because my macro isn't good enough. I'm not in EU platinum because I'm not laddering for it.
@Blizzard: yes...i'm in silver for a reason...because I'm not laddering to get out of it. My W/L against platinums is over 50%.
@TheSubtle: But I'm not a EU silver player....I'm a EU platinum player who will gladly jump from silver into that league officially if you give me a reason to right now.
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On August 25 2011 08:38 EneMal wrote:
@Emcee No....I am let down from being in EU diamond or masters because my macro isn't good enough. I'm not in EU platinum because I'm not laddering for it.
you're not in platinum because you're a silver league level player
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They don't let just anyone who speaks English teach an English class. If you were really as good as you purport yourself to be, then go grind out some games and rank up. Anything else is just talk.
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On August 25 2011 08:38 EneMal wrote:
@Emcee No....I am let down from being in EU diamond or masters because my macro isn't good enough. I'm not in EU platinum because I'm not laddering for it.
@Blizzard: yes...i'm in silver for a reason...because I'm not laddering to get out of it. My W/L against platinums is over 50%.
so you understand higher league players are better than lower league players...
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No.... I'm not in platinum because I'm not laddering to get into platinum. I'm guessing you're trolling and not actually that stupid.
@emecee No...Overall the higher league is better than the lower league. The players vary for both leagues.
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I am sorry if this sounds like a flame or something, but sometimes I would really like to have a magical pink button next to everyone's nickname on top of their posts and if I click them it mysteriously reveals the age of the person posting. I guess it would save many of us a lot of time bothering to post replies :-P
Again, I am sorry, but it just came to my mind.
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As a Master's league player (haha, jk!) I do agree with you to some extent. Your league doesn't matter a ton, but it definitely does have SOME weight to it in determining somebody's skill.
I think extra weight is being placed on it by higher level players, especially players who played Brood War, because there are so many people who are new to StarCraft (and thus in lower leagues) that speak as if what they think is fact, when they are blatantly wrong. These people don't understand that they are wrong because they have convinced themselves that they must be good because they are good at Halo, or WoW, or Call of Duty or whatever game they come from.
Also, your ideas are generally formed from your personal experiences, which for most people is largely made up by the games you have played, and when you are playing in lower leagues your experiences are vs. people who are not playing optimally, and you yourself aren't either (or even close to it), so any ideas that come from your personal experiences playing the game are a bit skewed and often times incorrect.
That being said, lower league players are not all idiots and some people do have legitimate thoughts, and although they cannot prove them 100% correct from their own playing experiences, they can use external sources like streams, replays, etc, to base their ideas off of and come up with something sensible, but I find this to be pretty rare.
P.S. EU server may be better in the sense that more professional players come from EU then NA, but overall I have heard from many people that they are basically the same... Whatever league you are in on one server you will probably be in on the other, maybe with just a hundred points or so different. I have not played on the EU server myself but I have many friends who do and they are all about the same rank (mid masters) as they are on NA.
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@Kuni Of course, age is very similar to leagues. People only need to know it to ad-homenize and it is a general guideline and doesn't tell you anything about a specific person.
To be perfectly honest, I'm 15 but I have fully formed philosophies and political opinions and if you can think of any variety of competition that could genuinely reflect intelligence, I'd be glad to engage you in it. I'm a philosophical vegan, and the most important things to me is music and poetry and any other forms of expressive art. But why would you make it personal? Why would you talk about age on a starcraft post?
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On August 25 2011 08:41 EneMal wrote:
No.... I'm not in platinum because I'm not laddering to get into platinum. I'm guessing you're trolling and not actually that stupid.
@emecee No...Overall the higher league is better than the lower league. The players vary for both leagues.
nah, you're in silver because you're a silver league level player
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I disagree heavily. Age matters a lot, because if you were a 20 year old dude calling everyone an idiot with no game knowledge, then I would probably try to let you see your mistake in your thoughts, but if you were a 13 year old dude, then I wouldn't even bother doing so, because it would be pointless to try to discuss anything like this with you.
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@ EneMal, would it be possible to link your SC2Ranks profile? This is what I found but i can't be 100% sure it is you: http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1099102/EneMaLicious
If so, why are you still on 372 points with 59 games won this season? Assuming you're not really silver league but platinum you should have won at least 65% of your matches. Although, if you would have won 65% of your matches, you would have alot more points. Not only should you have more points because of your higher winrate, but also because you should be matched vs higher leagues which give even more points.
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Well now you've shifted from maybe not good enough mechanics for platinum to "I'm definitely plat level, I just don't feel like playing" OK that's cool, so now if you theorycraft I'll ignore you because I don't think people that can't be bothered to ladder a bit care enough about the game to have relevant opinions not because you're silver, is that better? I'm ignoring you based on "you" not just your league
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On August 25 2011 08:35 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 08:33 EneMal wrote:
I'm not doing it just to get aproval by idiots with no understanding of the game.
silver league player calling other people idiots with no understanding of the game sick
Dude he spends 20x as much time watching streams as he does playing the game (actually getting good).
He probably understands it pretty well.
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On August 25 2011 08:38 EneMal wrote:
@Emcee No....I am let down from being in EU diamond or masters because my macro isn't good enough. I'm not in EU platinum because I'm not laddering for it.
@Blizzard: yes...i'm in silver for a reason...because I'm not laddering to get out of it. My W/L against platinums is over 50%.
@TheSubtle: But I'm not a EU silver player....I'm a EU platinum player who will gladly jump from silver into that league officially if you give me a reason to right now.
Problem is it's just your word... you claim to be a platinum player yet your rank says silver. What reason would I have to believe you? You could just be a guy inflating his skill level to get more respect on the forums. I already acknowledged that for 50 people who say stuff like you do, 3-4 might be correct. For all I know, you could be one of those 3-4, or you could not. For me personally, though, it's not worth it give all 50 people the benefit of the doubt just because 3 might not be full of shit. Why do that when I could ignore them and simply discuss strategy with people who have already proven themselves capable of playing at a high level? In the long run that's better for me.
I can sympathize with you to an extent, but don't blame people for not listening to you when they see you're in silver. If you care that much, just play some ladder games and get to platinum. I got to masters in like 90 games....
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@ Breadstick Dumb troll, officially ignored.
@TheSubtle: What the fuck is your point that it's my word? I bet if I just opened the post by saying that I was a masters player and Didn't say anything else about myself, you would have just accepted it. If you have a EU account, I'll prove it to you. If I wanted to I could just use a friends name if you wanted to look him up and say "yeah thats me." For everything, you have to trust their word, it's irrelevant.
@Navil: Can't be bothered to ladder? Because I'd rather look for players of a higher league instead and challenge them? Want to explain the sense in that?
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On August 25 2011 08:48 EneMal wrote:
@ Breadstick Dumb troll, officially ignored.
yes i'm definitely trolling because i'm saying a person in silver league deserves to be in silver league
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While I agree with your general sentiment that the starcraft community could be less judgemental and mean about people in lower leagues; the way you've gone about this is all wrong. Your insistence of "I'm silver but trust me I'm plat if I tried" makes it seem like you're really insecure about your performance.
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Someone says they are a good painter; I ask to see their paintings.
Someone says they are good at Starcraft; I ask to see their rating.
This is not difficult to understand.
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Gheed, there is a bit difference. Someone says they are good at starcraft, you should ask to see their GAMES. That is the equivilancy of a painter's work. Logic fail on your part.
@Juffalo, I'm not insecure about it though. I wish someone would bet I couldn't get to gold by tommorow, i want the easy money.
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On August 25 2011 08:51 Gheed wrote:
Someone says they are a good painter; I ask to see their paintings.
Someone says they are good at Starcraft; I ask to see their rating.
This is not difficult to understand.
But, I watch TONS of replays of Bob Ross on PBS. I'm a good painter, I just don't paint hardly at all.
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On August 25 2011 08:53 EneMal wrote:
Gheed, there is a bit difference. Someone says they are good at starcraft, you should ask to see their GAMES. That is the equivilancy of a painter's work. Logic fail on your part.
i know this guy ignored me but i want to point out that his analogy would mean you would want to see an artist paint with you watching, when in reality you'd want to see the finished product, just as you'd want to see the starcraft player's league/rating etc
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The equivalent of a Painter's Painting would be a Players Replay, not his league. This is obvious and I've already said this.
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On August 25 2011 08:48 EneMal wrote:
@ Breadstick Dumb troll, officially ignored.
@TheSubtle: What the fuck is your point that it's my word? I bet if I just opened the post by saying that I was a masters player and Didn't say anything else about myself, you would have just accepted it. If you have a EU account, I'll prove it to you. If I wanted to I could just use a friends name if you wanted to look him up and say "yeah thats me." For everything, you have to trust their word, it's irrelevant.
@Navil: Can't be bothered to ladder? Because I'd rather look for players of a higher league instead and challenge them? Want to explain the sense in that?
You're basically complaining that people dismiss your views on strategy because you're in Silver. My point is that unless you get some kind of tangible proof that you're not, they have every right to do so and logically the odds aren't in your favor. How is this hard to understand?
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@TheSubtle No....That's ridiculous. That's like saying that you meet some guy who says he is called "Jack" and you don't believe him because there is so many names and he is statstically unlikely to be called Jack. Why would I lie about being EU plat level? I'm pretty sure the value of my word should be higher than the likelihood for someone to pretend to be 3 leagues below the highest.
I make about 25% of my post about me to serve as an example and the thread becomes a massive troll fest. What a great fucking community.
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what Juffalo said is what I tried to tell you earlier. I don't mean any disrespect but you say that we shouldn't judge people by their rank but you say you can be in plat, meaning you judge yourself by a ranking system; further meaning that you have a pretty good idea that plat is better than silver (skill-wise). Yet you insist we don't judge you by Blizzard's ranking system. I'm just saying. try to be consistent with your argument. Again. I mean no disrespect. Just trying to say that a strong argument shouldn't have any holes in them.
And really, if you never say your rank and your analysis of some strat or game was on the spot, people would respect your thoughts either way. The only reason some people ask is because it doesn't quite sound right.
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It's more like you overestimating yourself, than trying to deceive us all. That's what he meant I believe.
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Plat is better than silver. Not every Plat player is necessarily better than ever silver player. NA is better than EU at basketball. This doesn't mean that the top EU basketball player is worse than the worst NA basketball player. It's such basic fucking logic. You can make statements about groups over other groups without making generalizations on every specific individual human being that's being labelled as such.
One team has 10 good players and 1 bad player. The other has 10 bad players and 1 good player. Though the first team is better, you can't say that the good player on the second team is worse than the bad player on the first.
@Above: like I said...over 50% w/l vs platinums. That's a fact.
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United States12237 Posts
Tone it down. You're making it difficult for other posters to discuss things with you.
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EneMal, after reading your comments, you are being just as stubborn and closed minded as the people who you are complaining about in your original post. You can't hope to prove any sort of point when you are acting that way, and you DEFINITELY cannot provoke and sort of change in the community's view towards lower league players when acting that way. Your opinions are valid and so are others, instead of cussing out or ignoring people who disagree with you, maybe you should take their opinions for what they're worth, just as you expect higher league players to do with your thoughts (being in a lower league) on gameplay.
Also, here are just a few things I feel that need to be said after reading all of this crap... lol.
- A player's "skill" is subjective. It is not a number, nor can it be defined. As an example, IdrA has called HuK "skill-less" many times in the past, yet he is a top GM player in Korea and in the Ro8 in this season's GSL. You may consider someone like CombatEX or PiQLiQ to be a bad player, but at the end of the day they win more ladder games then 99% of people playing StarCraft II.
- A player's ladder rating is an exact number and is an exact measurement on a player's ability to win. Your ladder rating DOES mean something because it is based off of a mathematical formula that compares you to everyone you are competing against (i.e. everyone on your server) and ranks you based on your ability to win.
I don't think that your ladder rank is completely indicative of a person's skill, and I said that earlier in the thread, but it definitely does have some meaning, and there is no denying that. At the end of the day, if you don't have an excessively huge bonus pool (400+) then I would say that whatever league you are in is fairly indicative of where you should be. However, I also think that lower league players are able to have intelligent thoughts about gameplay as long as they don't place too much weight on their personal experiences playing the game, but rather in the general logic of how the game works. You can't always make informed judgements based on lower league play because there are just too many mistakes that occur on both sides for it to be a reliable foundation to base an argument off of.
Edit:
On August 25 2011 08:38 EneMal wrote:
@TheSubtle: But I'm not a EU silver player....I'm a EU platinum player who will gladly jump from silver into that league officially if you give me a reason to right now.
For the sake of this thread, and the validity of your word, go ladder and get into platinum. That way you can prove something to us, and maybe to yourself, so that this conversation can actually go on productively.
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Yea, but you're still beating plat players right? What if (hypothetically) they're plat players that have silver level skill? The argument just goes both ways till there is really no way to prove a point. Again, not saying you are actually just beating plat rank with silver skill, it's just hypothetical to prove a point.
I acknowledge you can have a huge amount of game knowledge without getting into higher levels but when it comes to it, you're still using the ranking system which you so adamantly want to avoid. In truth, I would respect the OP more if you just said "I'm silver and I gain knowledge about the game through analysis and replays of high level players so I have a good sense of the game." Rather than "I'm silver but I can beat plat."
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On August 25 2011 08:59 EneMal wrote:
@TheSubtle No....That's ridiculous. That's like saying that you meet some guy who says he is called "Jack" and you don't believe him because there is so many names and he is statstically unlikely to be called Jack. Why would I lie about being EU plat level? I'm pretty sure the value of my word should be higher than the likelihood for someone to pretend to be 3 leagues below the highest.
I make about 25% of my post about me to serve as an example and the thread becomes a massive troll fest. What a great fucking community.
If i don't believe his name is Jack I'll ask to see his drivers lisense. If the lisence says his name is Fred, I'm more inclined to believe his name is Fred.
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Nobody in this thread is trolling you. You made a ridiculous assertion, and unsurprisingly, people disagree with it. Saying things like "I theorycraft at a high level" just makes you sound like a hobo on the street claiming that he's a hard worker but can't be assed to find a job. No one's going to take that seriously.
Ladder league isn't a perfect representation of a player's skill, but it's really easy to check and is a reasonably good approximation. It's not an arbitrary icon whatsoever. A single replay or two can be misleading (and faked), and no one is going to spend an hour with a replay pack of everyone that posts on a strategy forum to find out if they're any good (hint: if they're not on a pro team, they're not any good so who cares what they say).
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OP, you're wrong. You think you have experience that you don't, and your coming off as ignorant as stubborn. Your example about age was spot on, although you interpreted it incorrectly. Sure some 15 year olds may be more mature than some 20 year olds, but a vast majority of 15 years olds are not. So we could assume that you're a GM level "theorycrafter" stuck in silver for whatEVER reason, but it's a million to one shot. Although TBH I just think you're trolling, judging from the "hehe kor>eu>na" on a mostly NA forum, when it didn't add a single thing to your post.
And yes, it's EXACTLY how life works and EXACTLY how Starcraft works. You don't get a job unless you have a certain degree, because no employer will be like "hm, well he SAYS he is really smart, but he never went to university to prove it.." A lot of your ignorance just stems from your age to be honest.
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I believe your (EneMal) point is "don't judge by my rank, judge by my opinion"
so basicly you want to have equal authority to high ranked players in discussions and the current community does not accept that (in your opinion).
personally, I never had any problems having my opinion respected as long as I very clearly specified it was my opinion and mine alone, this was when I was still gold, I was promoted to plat in S3, and I told everyone I was gold, I have yet to be flamed or raged at due to my rank.
but lets ignore my point of view and instead look at the communities point of view.
first of all lets get this out of the way:
theorycrafting is often irrelevant.
theorycrafting is inaccurate until proven otherwise.
theorycrafting does NOT give a good picture of both players.
theorycrafting is very very often biased.
theorycrafting based on a single-digit number of games are ALWAYS inaccurate.
theorycrafting is frowned upon for the earlier defined reasons.
* these apply to theorycrafting in ALL leagues
the above is my experience with theorycrafting, and as such an opinion based of of theorycrafting is more often than not completely useless.
so, from the communities point of view, you are a silver level player with opinions based off games in silver league, with opponents in silver league, in other words the games are crappy.
the only thing you have going for you is "high level theorycrafting" but as stated earlier,
theorycrafting is often irrelevant.
and so you claim your theory is more than theory, it is truth, but then as stated earlier,
theorycrafting is inaccurate until proven otherwise.
and here is where you hit a roadblock. to prove your statement correct, you need authority, you need to have faced and beaten good or at least ok-ish players, wilder the claim or theories require higher authority, you must be able to demonstrate that you are not just a butt-hurt scrub.
then you turn to your experience of watching pros, you tell the community "I saw pro X do Y and Z happened", but then as stated earlier,
theorycrafting based on a single-digit number of games are ALWAYS inaccurate.
you would have to prove your point with data not your own, a tiring process believe me.
yes. yes you can argue and theorycraft when you are ranked low. it is possible. it is simply much much more difficult than if you have established authority. the system is designed in such a way so that people that play better (aka have more first-hand experience) will have an easy time making their voice heard over the hundreds of thousands of scrubs screaming nonsense.
unfortunately for you EneMal, you have gotten stuck in the trap of people screaming nonsense, the only way out is by intelligent reasoning that will stand out of the crowd, or gaining enough authority to walk out of there yourself, awed by the masses around you.
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Judging from your scouting guide, I'd say your current league is a very good representation of your SC2 ability.
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On August 25 2011 09:18 Endymion wrote:
OP, you're wrong. You think you have experience that you don't, and your coming off as ignorant as stubborn. Your example about age was spot on, although you interpreted it incorrectly. Sure some 15 year olds may be more mature than some 20 year olds, but a vast majority of 15 years olds are not. So we could assume that you're a GM level "theorycrafter" stuck in silver for whatEVER reason, but it's a million to one shot. Although TBH I just think you're trolling, judging from the "hehe kor>eu>na" on a mostly NA forum, when it didn't add a single thing to your post.
And yes, it's EXACTLY how life works and EXACTLY how Starcraft works. You don't get a job unless you have a certain degree, because no employer will be like "hm, well he SAYS he is really smart, but he never went to university to prove it.." A lot of your ignorance just stems from your age to be honest.
You beat me to it.
OP... you are in silver because you don't ladder and you think you are plat? Okay. Play 10-20 games and get promoted. You being lazy and not laddering doesn't mean you have the skill to jump leagues because you think you understand the game. Do you realize how many diamond players have that attitude but can't beat most low level masters? You are in silver because it depicted your skill level when you played ladder. unless you are massing in-house games (which you never said so i'll assume you arent) You aren't getting better by understanding anything. In fact I believe the logic isn't there.
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On August 25 2011 08:23 pwncakery wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 08:21 EneMal wrote:
I'm just sick to death of the trolling, ad-hominems, flaming, boasting, etc, etc, etc about leagues. Every region has different skill levels for the leagues (KR > EU > AM overall), every player is different and needs to improve on different things to get better, every league has players with all sorts of different game understanding and mechanics. Some players play a lot of their melees in customs and use ladder to offrace and test cheesy new builds. You can be "Diamond Skill" in gold league easily. There's plenty of High Diamonds who are better than a lot of masters, one base superheroes or lucky promotions and plenty of gold players of all ranges who would get owned by a high bronze player with a good sense of scouting.
Stop making generalized comments about players based on their current league placing and stop making such a big deal out of ladder ranks. I'm currently in European silver, who could easily compete on European platinum ladder and I am let down mostly by my mechanics and being distracted in games from split second decision making, I theorycraft at a very high level, as I spend at least 20x the time I do laddering watching streams, pro games, discussing starcraft 2, etc.
This thread isn't about me though, it's about using the ladder as just a way to label players and act like everyone is the same. Please judge players on what they say and do, if anything, and not some arbitrary icon on their profile. Bolded undermines the rest of your post.
I think this guy said it best. Not only that, he was the first response. If I were you, I wouldn't have even mentioned that to make your point. Sigh.
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Guys...if I said I got the game 2 week ago and now I'm grandmaster. That would be a ridiculous claim. If I said I played at high diamond level but couldn't manage to get out of gold league...that would be a ridiculous claim. If I said I could play at platinum level but I USE LADDER TO OFFRACE AND TEST SPINE CRAWLER RUSHES AND NOT TRY TO GET PROMOTED. That's entirely realistic and reasonable. What the fuck is hard to believe about that?
This is exactly what the original post was about. You're all so blinded by a little icon on someones profile that you can't even believe that they do their main play outside of ladder.
Also, I never said I was a grandmaster theorycrafter, but I'd say I was probably master. How about, instead of looking at my current league placing or my age, you look at what I say and stop acting like such a fucking e-bigot.
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So you've played 500+ 1v1s with at most one promotion (including probably 100+ this season, i.e., very recently), and the problem is apparently small sample size. I took my account from silver (after not playing any RTS games in about 10 years) to diamond in about 40 games at release, and to masters with about 150 games played (would have taken less but masters wasn't released for a while after release) I've also smurfed on other accounts and guest passes and have had no problems getting promoted quickly when I was playing in leagues clearly below my level.
You are a terrible player and a terrible poster, I'd suggest that you stop posting and stop embarassing yourself, but the schadenfreude is just too good.
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ok well maybe just post some of your replays against platinum players so you can prove to people that you at least play like a platinum player?
its really easy to tell plat-level play from silver-level play from a couple of replays
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I know dude, I'm in bronze leage but my theorycraft is solid diamond at least
for serious
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And now for my real response:
OP, we're not going to convince you, just like adults can't convince teenagers that no, they don't actually know more than adults do. It's just something they eventually learn in retrospect. It's just a normal part of psychological development.
I don't want this post to come off as condescending, but it did.
You'll learn eventually.
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On August 25 2011 19:53 EneMal wrote:
Guys...if I said I got the game 2 week ago and now I'm grandmaster. That would be a ridiculous claim. If I said I played at high diamond level but couldn't manage to get out of gold league...that would be a ridiculous claim. If I said I could play at platinum level but I USE LADDER TO OFFRACE AND TEST SPINE CRAWLER RUSHES AND NOT TRY TO GET PROMOTED. That's entirely realistic and reasonable. What the fuck is hard to believe about that?
Because it sounds so much like an excuse for you being a silver player. Maybe instead of "testing spine crawler rushes" on the ladder you should do those in custom games and play your real matches on the ladder. Playing it the other way around makes absolutely no sense.
Ladder
- opponents increase in skill relative to yours
- are generally more motivated to win (points/promotion/etc.)
Customs
- completely random opponents with most of them being in the lower leagues
- people usually testing random shit or playing off-race, because there's no risk of losing points
This is exactly what the original post was about. You're all so blinded by a little icon on someones profile that you can't even believe that they do their main play outside of ladder.
How about, instead of looking at my current league placing or my age, you look at what I say and stop acting like such a fucking e-bigot.
Since it's almost impossible to prove your points while theorycrafting, people value personal experiences of pros to judge things, as they know more about the game thanks to their experience. Also they cannot go running around making completely retarded statements as that removes their credibility quickly.
When you're in silver, you're going to say stuff like "send your overlord to the center of the map, so you can scout easier", because no one in silver is good enough to kill it. That could easily be an instant loss against 2 rax.
Also, I never said I was a grandmaster theorycrafter, but I'd say I was probably master.
Sounds so ridiculous I laughed out loud. I'm a master terran and there's still a gigantic amount of things I don't know and I wouldn't say I'm in any position for people to take my balance or theorycrafting suggestions seriously. You can only imagine how I would feel about a platinum level view of the game.
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Ok, say I believe that you're in silver, and don't want to ladder for whatever reason you said. So you're plat skill. You said that, the best way to judge a person's skill level is by their replay, and not their league icon. So provide us with a replay of one of your better performances, and let us see if you are what you claim to be. Alot of people are disillusioned and think they're better than they are.
From your recent post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258862
I have reason to doubt that you are plat. But feel free to prove me wrong.
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lol, so I looked through your other posts, and in another thread you posted this:
"I'm around EU platinum skill level (In silver league atm, but when I want I could get promoted easily) (around NA high diamond I think) and I need to work on my mechanics and perhaps split second decision making."
So you're silver with apparently a lot of games played, and then you say your skill level is EU plat when you've never been promoted to plat despite playing hundreds of 1v1 ladder games. And then you go on to say that you think EU plat = NA high diamond, based off of what? Watching streams and theorycrafting that EU > NA by that margin? Have you ever played any other server besides EU?
That aside, you keep telling us to not judge players by their league, but you still make it a point to note that you think your level is EU plat or NA high diamond. What? What's the point in writing that you think you're NA high diamond? You're making that same generalization about league and skill levels that you say people shouldn't make, and in your case, it just comes off as a desperate attempt to be taken seriously.
For the record, I was NA high diamond back when I first got my EU account, and I was high diamond on EU as well within one afternoon of laddering. If you're at a certain skill level, you don't have to grind all that many games to be where you ought to be. I later got promoted to master's on both accounts around the same time--actually, on EU first. It's really not THAT different.
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Show me replays of you consistently beating platinum EU players, and I'll believe you.
Oh and, I wouldn't listen to your theorycraft even if you're platinum, come back when you're masters.
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As of this moment you are incorrigible, EneMal. You are hopelessly wrong, but cannot see it.
Just as with practically any other subject, you have to experience Starcraft II (in the sense of actually playing it) to understand it well.
Hopefully you will realize things like this as you grow older and gain life experience. Among other things, I imagine you will likely find that your "fully formed philosophies and political opinions" you are touting in defense of your intelligence are naïveté.
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On August 25 2011 23:14 Ryalnos wrote:
As of this moment you are incorrigible, EneMal. You are hopelessly wrong, but cannot see it.
Just as with practically any other subject, you have to experience Starcraft II (in the sense of actually playing it) to understand it well.
Hopefully you will realize things like this as you grow older and gain life experience. Among other things, I imagine you will likely find that your "fully formed philosophies and political opinions" you are touting in defense of your intelligence are naïveté.
im actually surprised at the amount of reasonable responses to the OP, when the OP himself is being completely unreasonable and borderline abusive
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You theory craft at a really high level eh.
I am a GM theory crafter lets 1v1.
I usually craft on the NA server but I can jump on EU if its easier for you.
The only thing I do wrong in games is make mistakes too. I'm platinum but you know if I played more I would be in GM.
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Calgary25981 Posts
I find people overvalue themselves. I put "I theorycraft at a very high level" in the same boat as "I'm high diamond but I play platinums" and "I'm platinum but I have 700 bonus pool" and "I'm masters but I'd be grandmasters if I played more." These are all just comments on potential. How can you even know that you theorycraft at a high level if you can't execute any of your theories?
It's like me saying I've revolutionized genetic science but I can't test any of my theories...
The proof is in the pudding.
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The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed.
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On August 26 2011 00:40 EneMal wrote:
The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed.
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The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed.
EDIT:!
What the fuck is going on, I never double posted??!?!?!
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"I can't be arsed to get into platinum."
Why not? Playing the game is fun and when you are in a higher level league you get to play more games against (on average) more skilled opponents.
Do you mostly play customs or are you more interested in watching/thinking/talkingabout SC2?
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@Above
I mostly watch tournaments and streams and second from that, I play most of my games in customs with gold-plat+ practice partners. I only ladder when I want to try a cheesy build for fun against lower leveled opponents.
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im also a grandmaster theorycrafter, the highest of levels, I usually play on NA but I can get on eu if you want to 1v1 theorycraft
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On August 26 2011 00:40 EneMal wrote:
The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed.
Realistically how much worse do you thing you are with your off-race? especially if you playing in on ladder all the time, kind of like you would with a main-race......
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Every silver league guy thinks he's actually gold-platinum, but just doesn't take ladder seriously.
Every platinum league guy thinks he's actually diamond, but just doesn't take ladder seriously.
Every master league guy thinks he'd be in grandmaster if he played seriously or didn't have the worst luck ever.
Every grandmaster thinks he's amazing when he beats a pro player on the ladder, then rages and makes excuses when he loses to a no-name master league player the next game.
Hell, I'm sure even GSL quality players with 50% win-rate think they're actually just as good as Nestea but rationalize their lack of results by saying tournament results don't matter.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On August 26 2011 00:40 EneMal wrote:
The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed.
I don't veto. I play random. I practice strategies on the ladder. I'm terrible.
I'm also in Master league.
I find people just can't accept what they are and really push their potential instead.
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On August 25 2011 19:53 EneMal wrote:
How about, instead of looking at my current league placing or my age, you look at what I say and stop acting like such a fucking e-bigot.
well if we look at what you say
-you whine about how no one listens to you
-you call your readers idiots
you're not going to win any arguments or convince anyone with strategy like that.
from what i see, everyone's calling you an idiot because of what you said and what you posted, not because you're in silver league. so your wish was granted.
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On August 25 2011 09:46 iamke55 wrote:
Judging from your scouting guide, I'd say your current league is a very good representation of your SC2 ability.
This is very funny. This and this will answer all your questions.
Lets have a theory craft show match I won't 2 gate.
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Very entertaining thread, thanks EneMal! haha
Chill's a baller...
On August 26 2011 01:58 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:40 EneMal wrote:
The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed. I don't veto. I play random. I practice strategies on the ladder. I'm terrible. I'm also in Master league. I find people just can't accept what they are and really push their potential instead.
I was in diamond last season and I got placed in platinum this season...sad story, but I accept the fact that blizzard thinks I'm platinum league, just gives me more motivation to get better and get back into diamond
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...... You have to be trolling, there's no way a person can actually believe this. Right now, ladder is pretty much an indication of your skill level (I doubt you participate in tournaments). You're in silver. You say that you are platinum, but you're not, you're silver. It is only tangible indication of your skill level. Even though I agree that people should look more at the idea and not the icon, you also have to keep in mind we have fucking droves of people saying "Well I'm actually mid-high diamond, I just need to ladder seriously" which is an absolutely retarded statement. I'm in high-masters, do I complain that if I mass laddered and allin'ed everygame i'd be GM? No, because I'm in masters, that's what is next to my name. People need to look at themselves and realize they actually suck shit compared to people who are actually decent and stop making idiotic excuses for why they're not better.
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On August 26 2011 00:40 EneMal wrote:
The people posting on this are so incredibally fucking stupid that it's the fifth page and nobody has grasped the concept of not vetoing, off racing, and generally just using the ladder to mess about, lowering your league.
How can I delete this thread? The stupidity is making my eyes bleed.
No, people get it as a concept. But just because YOU supposedly "use the ladder to mess about" doesn't mean everyone does, and all it sounds like is you're making an excuse for why YOU'RE in silver. That's fine, but we don't actually care whether you're in silver or not, or whether you deserve it or not, or whether you secretly practice with gold/plat people or not. Those are your choices and you're free to do that. Just don't make it a "plea to the Starcraft Community" to somehow discount league placement because you as an individual are not vetoing, off-racing, messing about, etc etc etc, and then call people who HAVE played ladder at a much higher level than you idiots who don't understand the game.
And I would be 100% sure you're trolling, because your arguments are so ridiculous, but sadly your post history suggests otherwise.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Just FYI, here are some examples of his high level theory crafting:
On August 19 2011 13:47 EneMal wrote:
Force fields on ramps are OP imo. The Force Field is a bad mechanics, at least with the big sentry range on it.
On August 08 2011 09:38 EneMal wrote:http://drop.sc/25015Lol. I know it won't really, but I hadn't seen anyone spine crawler rush against a terran before so I thought I'd post this. By the way, when he says he is in silver, this is EU silver, which is roughly equivilent to high gold or low-mid platinum league in NA, so bear that in mind if you're an american watching this. My effective APM is around 120 or 150 (later game) though and I'm actually more of a EU gold or platinum skill level (NA Dia) but I do stuff like this when I ladder so It's hard to get promoted  But hey, if you're in the lower leagues and want some fun you could give something like this a try.
On August 20 2011 11:41 EneMal wrote:
@Above
Same, I play at a EU platinum (NA High Diamond) level, but I'm in EU silver because I don't ladder very often, I mostly use it to offrace and test builds.
On August 20 2011 12:53 EneMal wrote:http://drop.sc/28293In the replay, I failed to deny a cannon rush and he restricted me to 1 base so instead of committing to a load of lings to destroy it anyway and being so far behind, I decided to go for a 1base nydus worm/mass ling cheese and it worked. I understand that my opponent had less than half my APM and wasn't a very good player (no offence ) but I think the question of such a build's viability stands. However, this thread is more to discuss Nydus Worms as something that can be useful against a Forge Fast Expand in general. I think they have their place, but it would probably only work well on a map like shakuras where there is a lot of space for worms to go up. Watcha think?
On August 24 2011 00:42 EneMal wrote:
Raven is the same tech as an overseer, deal with it and PLEASE PLEASE don't complain about your detection, us Zerg would give anything for scans and decent anti air.
User was warned for this post
On August 25 2011 08:09 EneMal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 08:46 LesPhoques wrote:
Platinum = kinda know what is happening, no knowledge on timings/build orders/horrible macro
Diamond = kinda know what is happening, knows 1 timing and uses it. Knows 1 build order but can't execute it properly/mediocre macro
Masters: low/mid masters= Have a fair idea what is happening, know common timings/few build orders/ok macro
High masters= Know what is going on, know timings + plus few weird ones/knows most build orderes/good macro
If that was true, I'd be a High masters player. But I'm not. Because it wasn't true. You can't make such ridiculous generalized statements. I always know what is happening, I know every common build, what it looks like, I wrote an entire guide on scouting, I know the best ways to react and I can micro and know how to position, etc. I'm around EU platinum skill level (In silver league atm, but when I want I could get promoted easily) (around NA high diamond I think) and I need to work on my mechanics and perhaps split second decision making. People need to STOP acting like leagues mean much. Every region has a different skill level for the leagues and every player is different. There are plenty of masters who are just 1base superheroes or cheesers who don't know crap and plenty of high diamonds who do lots of customs and stuff who are better than a good few masters. There's plenty of high gold players with brilliant game sense and understanding and there is also plenty of awful gold players who would get owned by a high bronze. Can't you people handle nuance?
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Your host, Moderate Temperature for the save.
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@Chill 1. If you play random, why the fuck would you veto? And playing random already gives you a massive advantage in any vs zerg. I imagine that this is too complicated for you, unless I babysit you and explain it, so I suppose I will do that to save myself boredom later. I don't know any Zerg players who would open the same for different matchups. In theory, there are openers like speedling expand that could be viable in all maps and MUs, but if that isn't what a particular player already does in that MU, he's already forced out of his comfort zone. It's not like, for example, protoss who can open 1-gate core in every MU comfortably, until the opponent is scouted.
2. What the hell was the point you were trying to make with the post above? That's just a load of random quotes of stuff I've posted.
@Iamke: No...that's the most stupid comment I've ever seen. Before I stopped really laddering, it was an accurate league for me and when i start laddering again and the promotions kick in, it will be once again.
The entire point of this thread is you can't generalize all players in a league, especially cross-regions. I'm currently placed in the same league as protoss's with 10 APM that 1base cannon turtle to stargate.... I wasn't even that bad when I got brood war.
@DueleR: My arguments are so bad that you haven't said one thing to contradict them. I swear I could empty the antarctic fucking ocean into the chasm of cognitive dissonance you display.
P.S: I love how some moron warned me for something I already clarified to be a glitch in the post below.
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On August 26 2011 04:21 EneMal wrote:
@Chill 1. If you play random, why the fuck would you veto? And playing random already gives you a massive advantage in any vs zerg.
2. What the hell was the point you were trying to make with the post above? That's just a load of random quotes of stuff I've posted.
@Iamke: No...that's the most stupid comment I've ever seen. Before I stopped really laddering, it was an accurate league for me and when i start laddering again and the promotions kick in, it will be once again.
The entire point of this thread is you can't generalize all players in a league, especially cross-regions. I'm currently placed in the same league as protoss's with 10 APM that 1base cannon turtle to stargate.... I wasn't even that bad when I got brood war.
@DueleR: My arguments are so bad that you haven't said one thing to contradict them. I swear I could empty the antarctic fucking ocean into the chasm of cognitive dissonance you display.
Bolded parts:
First, if you don't get this, no one should bother to even converse with you rationally.
In hopes that you do realize what point Chill was trying to make: second, 1 base cannon turtle to stargate is viable in silver. Because opponents dont have the decision-making or mechanics to punish it. Which is why theorycrafting silvers are not appreciated. I main protoss, but I could spinecrawler rush every other game and still keep a zerg account in platinum, you have no excuse. If you're in silver, you're in silver. Accept it, get better.
PS: insulting mods is a great way to get banned. Keep it up!
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Calgary25981 Posts
On August 26 2011 04:21 EneMal wrote:
@Chill 1. If you play random, why the fuck would you veto? And playing random already gives you a massive advantage in any vs zerg. Because certain maps play to a random's advantage, like 4 player maps and maps with long scouting patterns.
2. What the hell was the point you were trying to make with the post above? That's just a load of random quotes of stuff I've posted.
I'm trying to show a history of you talking yourself up with little evidence.
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The only way to settle this is for Blizzard to implement a theorycrafting ladder.
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@SusySquark If someone does something moronic, I'm going to call them out on it, whoever they are. It's called principals.
And, that's the point I was making.... I DO have "the decision-making or mechanics to punish it". Because I'm not a silver level player.
All I am saying is, just because I'm currently in the same league, that doesn't make the same as a 10 APM cannon turtle to 1base stargate. I was better than that when I was in bronze. Yet, this awful community would have probably said "lolol he is better than u nub thats why he is in higher league lolol jealouz nub".
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Calgary25981 Posts
On August 26 2011 04:30 EneMal wrote:
@SusySquark If someone does something moronic, I'm going to call them out on it, whoever they are. It's called principals.
And, that's the point I was making.... I DO have "the decision-making or mechanics to punish it". Because I'm not a silver level player.
All I am saying is, just because I'm currently in the same league, that doesn't make the same as a 10 APM cannon turtle to 1base stargate. I was better than that when I was in bronze. Yet, this awful community would have probably said "lolol he is better than u nub thats why he is in higher league lolol jealouz nub".
But look at it from our perspective. I've read your post history and you've never once demonstrated this diamond-in-the-rough analysis. So while it may be true, it's difficult for someone to take someone on their word when there is contradictory evidence (past posts, your current league, etc.)
What if I told you right now I have the heart to train 16 hours a day? Would you tell me:
a. Yea!
b. I think you underestimate how difficult training like a progamer is while overestimating your own abilities.
Obviously the latter. And that's what is happening here.
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Actually, EneMal, principals are for a school. I believe what you wish to have are principles. Whether it's lack of skill, application, or dedication that's keeping you in Silver, I don't think you can really claim "I belong higher" unless your position in ladder coincides with you regularly practicing with a team full of plat players that you have an even record with.
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You are truly being a dick in this thread.
First off I have played EU and NA, and EU silver DOES NOT NA diamond or whatever you are claiming. In fact I have played every server and the only ones i noticed a difference in leagues were China and Korea.
Second, you can say "oh hurp derp i offrace and mess around that's why I'm silver!". I have several of those accounts for myself (main one used to be on LA pre merge). I am a Diamond player on NA (admittedly it's maybe higher now since I don't ladder on NA anymore) and in all regions I can hit plat to diamond with offraces doing stupid shit. So I don't buy that excuse.
I think while your main concept is interesting, your asshole ways and refusal to believe you are just awful make this thread a wreck.
On August 26 2011 04:39 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:30 EneMal wrote:
@SusySquark If someone does something moronic, I'm going to call them out on it, whoever they are. It's called principals.
And, that's the point I was making.... I DO have "the decision-making or mechanics to punish it". Because I'm not a silver level player.
All I am saying is, just because I'm currently in the same league, that doesn't make the same as a 10 APM cannon turtle to 1base stargate. I was better than that when I was in bronze. Yet, this awful community would have probably said "lolol he is better than u nub thats why he is in higher league lolol jealouz nub". But look at it from our perspective. I've read your post history and you've never once demonstrated this diamond-in-the-rough analysis. So while it may be true, it's difficult for someone to take someone on their word when there is contradictory evidence (past posts, your current league, etc.) What if I told you right now I have the heart to train 16 hours a day? Would you tell me: a. Yea! b. I think you underestimate how difficult training like a progamer is while overestimating your own abilities. Obviously the latter. And that's what is happening here.
I love it when Chill breaks it down, and as usual he is right.
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You don't need great mechanics to stay consistent in diamond at all. Besides the very basic mechanical things, staying consistent at diamond pretty much hinges all on understanding the general flow of the game. If you are playing at silver then there is just really no way you even have the most preliminary grasping of game flow, because just brute forcing your way with mechanics on its own will get you higher than silver.
The whole spiel about how people will try to excuse themselves by saying, "I understand the game but my mechanics are too bad", is all really just nonsense because theory and application go hand in hand in starcraft. Everything else is just bullshit.
To give an anecdote, my cousin played diamond level in 2v2 and platinum in 1v1 even though he really didn't get the game all that much. To make things even funnier, he didn't even bind any hotkeys for units or buildings. He didn't have good mechanics. If you are playing in silver then you are just bad, period.
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Ok here's another example.
I played football (american football) from flag football as a kid until high school.
I was a better player in high school then I was in flag. I learned routes, play calling, and a million other things.
By your theory I am qualified to be a NFL player.
+ Show Spoiler +
I am not, there is still 10 million OTHER things I don't know
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I never said I belong in a higher league. I don't try to ladder so I don't belong in a higher league. This isn't a QQ thread. Doesn't change the fact that I can compete at around 50% or more w/l against platinums in general.
@Above...what the fuck are you talking about? My "theory" is the "theory" that someone who is better than someone else isn't the same as the person they are better than.
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On August 26 2011 04:59 EneMal wrote:
I never said I belong in a higher league. I don't try to ladder so I don't belong in a higher league. This isn't a QQ thread. Doesn't change the fact that I can compete at around 50% or more w/l against platinums in general.
How do you know that the plat players you are playing are not being tested by B.net for demotion?
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Because I didn't fight one plat player. I regularly practice with gold and platinum players. And most of them are solid in their respective leagues. It's not hard to beleive, iCCup. .....Why the hell do you act like its so hard to be a EU platinum that you can't believe anyone could accomplish it?
and I don't fight them ON LADDER. because I DON'T LADDER COMPETITIVELY. I fight them in customs.
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On August 26 2011 05:01 EneMal wrote:
Because I didn't fight one plat player. I regularly practice with gold and platinum players. And most of them are solid in their respective leagues. It's not hard to beleive, iCCup. .....Why the hell do you act like its so hard to be a EU platinum that you can't believe anyone could accomplish it?
Because you can't?
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^ worst troll comment ever, try again.
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On August 26 2011 05:01 EneMal wrote:
Because I didn't fight one plat player. I regularly practice with gold and platinum players. And most of them are solid in their respective leagues. It's not hard to beleive, iCCup. .....Why the hell do you act like its so hard to be a EU platinum that you can't believe anyone could accomplish it?
and I don't fight them ON LADDER. because I DON'T LADDER COMPETITIVELY. I fight them in customs.
I don't either, I CG most of my practice, yet somehow I can still hit at least plat or diamond on all regions, with all races, with any strat. Weird....
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this is so good!
don't ban him yet let us keep watching.
terrible community *tisk tisk* this is like a kilkenny lion playing with a glossy coated mouse.
I'm plat NA and your "diamond NA" lets play?
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I'm in the same boat as OP, even though I disagree with some of the things he said (namely the skill difference between regions)
I am so sick of all my posts on teamliquid getting ignored, especially in the strategy forums. I am only NA bronze, but if I actually cared about ladder and ever tried I would easily be mid masters. I play my high master friend on custom and I've beat him before. Not to mention everyone knows that region skills are different (NA>EU>CN>KR) so I'm probably like mid diamond KR right now. I always watch SoTG, ITG, Lo3, WoC and always have at least 2 progamer stream open (only the NA pros, because I only watch the best of the best).
Anyways, I agree the culture of teamliquid has to change, especially in the strategy forum. It's full of elitist nazi pieces of shit. When I give advice that I have gleaned through hours of watching pros play, I expect to be lauded over instead of made fun of just because of my stupid ladder rank that doesn't mean anything.
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Calgary25981 Posts
This thread is getting dumb. The point should have been rate people on the merit of their words, not their rank and league. Unfortunately, it seems the OP just opened this thread to push his own agenda.
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EPT
