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![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/2s6rnfc.jpg)
As you can see in this picture,fruitdealer/trickster only come practice house for dress change.They were not even in practice house until 35 days.How can you pay for this guys? LOL!
Just thinking;
You are a boss of a company,
Your 2 workers only come 10 days out of 45.
Your other workers training/working so hard with low salary/without salary than this 2 worker.
This 2 worker want their 1.5 month(45 days) salary without doing anything.
Can you pay for this guys?
If you watched Hyung Joon becomes a pro gamer,you can see how naive guy is Coach Lee.
Please be patient about Coach Lee.This guy is most experienced starcraft 2 manager,ex-MBCGameHero Coach,believe his decisions.
Cu
SOURCE : http://sc2tsl.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=61&wr_id=2016&page=0&sca=&sfl=&stx=&sst=&sod=&spt=0&page=0
+ Show Spoiler +moonmeh from r/starcraft did a speed translation
Okay gonna go through TSL's reponse bit by bit(prime)
The reason for leaving the association.
There was a lot defamation and exaggeration during the meeting along with a lot of lies
Despite the fact that it was supposed to be an arbitary meeting, the comittee ignored much of Coach Lee's statements and intentions.
The lack of a strong unbiased discussion process
The fact that this was judged so quickly by Tricker's views is regretful. We could not appeal the decision done by the comittee.
TSL
I believe that the decision could have been made after TSL and I making an announcement on our opinion
(bwah so much technical terms)
In addition, afer the results we came to the conclusion it would be impossible to appeal and judged that it would be better if after making a decision we were able to appeal after 3 days as it makes it less biased and prejudiced.
The reason why FD and Tricker did not recieve their final payment.
Due to their attitude actions which hurt their team mates such as not being interested in team rebuilding and ect, the coach and the players decided that there would be no need to give the final payment. That duration was for a month
Thus we decided that before the 2 player's payment, the livelihood of the TSL players would come first.
This was worse due how we were low on maintenance fees and getting additional loans. I am not ashamed of how I did my team organization.
Model, in this case the ads
About the ads, due to those players leaving we brought up the idea of changing it, but due to the fact that the content was created while they were in TSl and the fact that it takes a while to modify the ads made it that it would take a lot of time to change the ads.
. Currently this is finished by modifying the conten by utilizing money. (god this sound awkward)
TSL
The players of TSL and the coach agree with those statements above and addition agree with leaving the association and currently busy with focusing on GSL and GSTL.
Sorry to give this regretful news and thank you to those who were worried about us.
TSL
In addition(As an after thought) to the players preparing for the tournaments, the patches for the maps are very important. The fact that you always give these information late only to TSL players is very disappointing.
TSL Coach Lee
ps: I'm not the talker with TSL Coach Lee as shown in screenshot.A Turkish friend of TSL Coach Lee requested me to do this , topic and screenshot from him.
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Where is that picture from? Who took that? And was Coach Lee aware of this being used in this way?
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Well, your assuming that these 2 players only did show up the amount coach lee is saying. I think he's lost the benefit of the doubt to be honest. And second of all, he should have paid them, and then cut ties with them, not the opposite way around. You can't use these guys in advertisements, where your getting paid, then not pay them and then cut ties with them.
Even if what coach lee is saying is true, he's still in the wrong for not paying them for what they have done.
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Coach Lee has been poorly victmized by this situation, I can tell he really is a good guy at heart, its just first the players take advantage of him, and then SC2Con gangs up on him, and now he's in a lose/lose position
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Not showing up for 45 days seems like reasonable grounds to withold money, but not without prior knowledge.
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Nope, I won't pay them either. To me, I feel Like FD and Tester are just too lazy in practicing, they haven't have any result for so long.
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He might not have liked the decision but he shouldn't go crying about it. Legally he broke rules and didn't pay his employees and used them in ads after they were no longer part of TSL. Obviously we don't know the exact terms of their contracts, but based on the ruling, we can probably say the TSL coach violated the terms.
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Interesting. If he wanted them to come to the team house more often, he should have specified something (like required practice time) about it in the contract? Not agreeing with someone's decisions doesn't give him any right to withhold their salary.
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This is the thing i dont like about the issue, this is the result of what people were railing about during the puma/eg thing. Not having contracts can kill an orginization. The order of events with a contract goes as follows. FD and trickster disobey the contract by not training, the coach then uses fines/ sues/ other legal ramifications. This is why in a post awile ago i talked about the saftey of the players/ organizations by using contracts. Hopefully when this gets done the team is still intact and the players dont have ruines reputations.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
But then the question is, why did they not visit the teamhouse? This is something that we will also hear soon I'm sure. Dont base your opinion on one part of the story too swiftly.
And whoever this is sure has a lot of nerdy games hahaha
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It is easy to say that. Does he have any actual proof? For being such a victim in everything, he likes to spout off about stuff. Everything with EG seemed okay with him until he randomly exploded. Everything with these two players seemed okay, until he had to pay them what he owed. Simply having his word does not make it so...
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Since there is the word "facts" in the title i expected a lot more than a screen shot of a skype conversation. I think coach Lee is old enough to give us his version himself.
Could you please explain what you seek to discuss with that ? there's already a thread if all you wanted to do was to give your opinion.
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This doesn't deserve its own thread, stop propagating more waves than needed.
Also, people need to stop assuming the worst. Coach Lee is probably not completely in the wrong, but FD/Trickster (and SC2PA) are not completely wrong either. Everyone exaggerates. There's probably a middle ground where everyone is right and wrong in one way or another.
On August 05 2011 01:23 Beyonder wrote:
But then the question is, why did they not visit the teamhouse? This is something that we will also hear soon I'm sure. Dont base your opinion on one part of the story too swiftly.
And whoever this is sure has a lot of nerdy games hahaha
But he uses Norton
/lookofdisapproval
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Aren't those players contracted? Shouldn't the contract state such details as how much practice they need to put in and their involvement in the team house and such? I really don't understand.
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what is up the this shit, every next week i look at tl to find some freaking drama...its disgusting
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On August 05 2011 01:27 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
what is up the this shit, every next week i look at tl to find some freaking drama...its disgusting
People feed off drama. I think that's also partly why the scene exploded so much. All that drama.
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picture doesn't load for me. feel like i'm missing out on a valuable part of this thread that makes it more than some guy wanting to make his own thread for his opinion. either way, coach lee is dumb for picking up trickster and FD if his assumption that he would suddenly turn 2 guys who left oGs over being forced to practice into guys who would be into training. the only difference between then and now is that back then, FD and trickster were barely training and owning people, and now they are barely training and getting owned by people who train harder. feels like he was only getting mad because their lack of training suddenly stopped working like it should've and they can't be a billboard for his team, and now that they aren't useful, fuck em.
afaik even without training hard, they did pretty well (i can't remember when they left TSL so idk how well they were doing), and you are making money off of their accomplishments and fame. they deserve to be paid. even if they had shit results, and even if you weren't making money off of them, you should still pay them their dues because they were receiving a salary you agreed to pay, and then kick them promptly before you keep them around long enough to have to pay for them again if you aren't satisfied with the previous arrangement that you paid almost the entire amount of.
to me, you're a two faced lying mother fucker if you want to go around all naive and innocent using handshake deals, but then not uphold your end of the bargain when it doesn't suit you, and fuck all of you guys in this thread who would say "LOL wouldn't pay em either." yea, i bet if you could take advantage of your non-contracted players who made your team worth mentioning when they're at their low point, you would.
coach lee might be a good coach, idk, but the dude comes off as a snake more and more as i see how he tries to play people to his favor both publically and privately, regardless of how lazy or improper other people involved might have been. honestly i don't even believe what he says is entirely the truth because that's already not been the case 2 times or more with him just from what i know in other situations. how many times can you cry wolf before people start to wonder if there ever was one?
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On August 05 2011 01:18 zeru wrote:
10 days out of 45? What the fuck? Are you kidding me.
So much for Coach Lee being the bad guy.
Why do people do this? This is more complex than one side being wrong and the other is right. From what i have seen(and chances are that we will never see all) is that both sides acted and reacted poorly.
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On August 05 2011 01:27 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
what is up the this shit, every next week i look at tl to find some freaking drama...its disgusting
people like drama when it's not happening to them personally
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This changes the story 180% degrees.
If I was an employer and 2 of my workers showed up just 10 days out of 45 I won't be paying them too. I think he should have just canceled their contracts a lot sooner and cut his looses with those two losers who haven't performed even decently in 7-8 months.
I mean who cares if FD won the first GSL when it was the easiest to win, since then he has sucked. Trickster is no better and I feel like they both were abusing the coach and the team TSL by not training and showing up and basically just getting money for nothing. They haven't won a single set in months.
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Honestly this would all be resolved by an impartial arbitrator. Like Judge Judy.
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Coach Lee is too nice for his own good...
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On August 05 2011 01:30 thehitman wrote:
This changes the story 180% degrees.
If I was an employer and 2 of my workers showed up just 10 days out of 45 I won't be paying them too. I think he should have just canceled their contracts a lot sooner and cut his looses with those two losers who haven't performed even decently in 7-8 months.
I mean who cares if FD won the first GSL when it was the easiest to win, since then he has sucked. Trickster is no better and I feel like they both were abusing the coach and the team TSL by not training and showing up and basically just getting money for nothing. They haven't won a single set in months.
i agree with you on most parts but i think you should really check the facts.
FD has been sucking yeah but Tester has actually been doing well, Ro4 in last GSL.
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This is why there should be contracts.... If you hire someone for an hourly job where they're expected to be there 40 hours/week, then of course if they don't come in you don't pay them. If you hire a band to perform weekly at your bar, though, then you don't have an actual requirement about their practice. They just have to show up to play, and if they're bad you can fire them, but you have to pay them as agreed ahead of time up until they are fired (assuming they show up for the actual playing).
So which is it? Both are perfectly reasonable analogies. When you have contracts, you have clear expectations. As it is, it's both sides trying to hold each other accountable to the "understood" arrangement, but both sides had different ideas of what the arrangement was. The coach/management is at fault, but less because of the decision now and more because of the decision not to have formal contracts with their employees.
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If an employee doesn't show up to work, you fire them.
Withholding their pay only results in them having a legitimate legal grievance against you.
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On August 05 2011 01:35 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 01:34 bonifaceviii wrote:
If an employee doesn't show up to work, you fire them.
Withholding their pay only results in them having a legitimate legal grievance against you. Not if there's no contract. Verbal agreements dont really mean anything.
I'm kind of, pretty sure that normally agreements/contracts have a big part that says something to the effect of:
hey you have to work (practice) to get paid
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Yes, let's start another lynch mob using hearsay and "leaked" screenshots. Obviously TL is the best place to bestow judgements and hand out punishments, as oppose to the SC2 Conference.
Shit happened. Money was tight. TSL is dead. None of us know enough to paint the good or bad guys here. The world doesn't work that way, anyways.
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On August 05 2011 01:35 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 01:34 bonifaceviii wrote:
If an employee doesn't show up to work, you fire them.
Withholding their pay only results in them having a legitimate legal grievance against you. Not if there's no contract. Verbal agreements dont really mean anything.
I don't know about Korean law but in Sweden an verbal agreement is as valid as a written, there is one exception in real-estates. However it is much more harder to prove the existence of an verbal agreement.
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On August 05 2011 01:33 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 01:31 Condor Hero wrote:On August 05 2011 01:30 thehitman wrote:
This changes the story 180% degrees.
If I was an employer and 2 of my workers showed up just 10 days out of 45 I won't be paying them too. I think he should have just canceled their contracts a lot sooner and cut his looses with those two losers who haven't performed even decently in 7-8 months.
I mean who cares if FD won the first GSL when it was the easiest to win, since then he has sucked. Trickster is no better and I feel like they both were abusing the coach and the team TSL by not training and showing up and basically just getting money for nothing. They haven't won a single set in months. i agree with you on most parts but i think you should really check the facts. FD has been sucking yeah but Tester has actually been doing well, Ro4 in last GSL. Don't tell others to fact check when you get it wrong yourself :x ro8.
my mistake, Ro8.
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Looks fake to me. Why would he name his skype "TSL Coach Lee"
Fake until proven otherwise.
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On August 05 2011 01:40 Marcus420 wrote:
Looks fake to me. Why would he name his skype "TSL Coach Lee"
Fake until proven otherwise.
Him and Killer both talk to people on Skype. He mentioned it during the interview at the Code A qualifiers and asked people to add them if they wanted to chat.
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On August 05 2011 01:39 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 01:38 JacobDaKung wrote:On August 05 2011 01:35 zeru wrote:On August 05 2011 01:34 bonifaceviii wrote:
If an employee doesn't show up to work, you fire them.
Withholding their pay only results in them having a legitimate legal grievance against you. Not if there's no contract. Verbal agreements dont really mean anything. I don't know about Korean law but in Sweden an verbal agreement is as valid as a written, there is one exception in real-estates. However it is much more harder to prove the existence of an verbal agreement. Yes, that's a verbal contract which is recorded. Not an unrecorded verbal agreement.
There is no distinction between a verbal contract and a verbal agreement in Sweden.
*edit grammar
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On August 05 2011 01:40 Marcus420 wrote:
Looks fake to me. Why would he name his skype "TSL Coach Lee"
Fake until proven otherwise.
I'd like some validation too.
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This doesn't seem like evidence and is one sided...if coach lee approved this thread then he's officially the biggest drama queen in korea. I don't frankly trust a word coming out of coach lee's mouth at this point....look at how he handled the puma situation...all his posts were extremely one sided and just sought towards defamation of Puma.
Fruit and them don't show up more then 10 days? well were they being paid? Did they not show up due to lack of getting paid? This is not a whole story, this is a giant rumor mill.
I agree with people that without validation in some way shape or form instead of I got this from my buddies buddies grandma, this thread should be locked. He can start a new one when he has a way to prove this convo.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On August 05 2011 01:40 Marcus420 wrote:
Looks fake to me. Why would he name his skype "TSL Coach Lee"
Fake until proven otherwise.
While I don't have him on skype, both he and killer have publicised their skype usernames via twitter if anyone wants to chat with them about anything.
TSL_korea TSL
@Killershin he's make skype aocunt. ryanshield@naver.com add gogo.^^
30 Jul Favorite Retweet Reply
»
TSL
TSL_korea TSL
TSL_korea Skype: oopslee82@gmail.com add gogo^^
30 Jul Favorite Retweet Reply
I'm inclined to believe Tester and FD didn't show up a lot, you can read their old playxp interviews and often see them talking about not having practiced a lot.
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I don't think we can be so judgemental, this way or that. We don't know the facts. We are seeing conversations, we are seeing what this person says about the events and what other people say about the events... We don't know what is fact and what isn't...
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Tester and Fd are a shame now. FD cant even baneling bust properly last time I saw him. 6 pooling for FD has better odds for him to win.
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I understand the story in the following way:
TSL had a contract with FD and Trickster. They both lost interest in the team and stopped practicing/participating. Coach Lee got angry and they eventually left the team. Due to their lack of participation Coach Lee decided that in his opinion he had no obligation to pay them for the last month prior to them leaving.
The players complained to the player association and while it was acknowledged that the behaviour of Trickster and FD was questionable, they asked TSL to uphold their contractual agreements. Coach Lee disagrees and leaves the association.
So it's a classic... morally right vs legally right. Pick your side.
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thats what happens when u got no rules and regulations in a team
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On August 05 2011 01:30 thehitman wrote:
This changes the story 180% degrees.
If I was an employer and 2 of my workers showed up just 10 days out of 45 I won't be paying them too. I think he should have just canceled their contracts a lot sooner and cut his looses with those two losers who haven't performed even decently in 7-8 months.
I mean who cares if FD won the first GSL when it was the easiest to win, since then he has sucked. Trickster is no better and I feel like they both were abusing the coach and the team TSL by not training and showing up and basically just getting money for nothing. They haven't won a single set in months.
There's a bunch of things we don't know about this. Is there a contract and what does it say? Did coach lee warn them if they did not start coming to practice they would no longer be paid OR did they show up for their money and were then informed that they would not be paid? Was it stipulated anywhere how many hours they need to practice?
The fact that other people gave money back to help the team and others practice more than them is irrelevant. A deal was struck between the two parites and it must be examined what the actual terms of the agreement were and what obligations need to be fulfilled.
The players association, which holds no real power when you think about it, has no legal right to dictate who is owed what. This is a matter for small claims court. Like Judge Judy.
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On August 05 2011 01:44 Zeddicus wrote:
I don't think we can be so judgemental, this way or that. We don't know the facts. We are seeing conversations, we are seeing what this person says about the events and what other people say about the events... We don't know what is fact and what isn't...
This.
Every time some new information comes to light regarding, EG-Puma-TSL, FD-Trickster-TSL, SC2CON-TSL, the opinion of the community shifts drastically.
Do we know all the facts? Absolutely not. Hold judgment before you say anything you either regret, or are going to completely change your mind about tomorrow.
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Again,
TL is neither the Judge nor the Jury. There is a reason why SC2 Conference is the body of arbitration. We are in no place to assign blame for TSL's fall, especially when the only information that came out of Korea is a questionable screenshot and a few poorly translated lines.
What we know is, Coach Lee is a good man, a true man of Esports. The breakdown of his team is a true tragedy that I doubt anyone will like to be repeated in our shared history.
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On August 05 2011 01:49 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 01:44 Zeddicus wrote:
I don't think we can be so judgemental, this way or that. We don't know the facts. We are seeing conversations, we are seeing what this person says about the events and what other people say about the events... We don't know what is fact and what isn't... This. Every time some new information comes to light regarding, EG-Puma-TSL, FD-Trickster-TSL, SC2CON-TSL, the opinion of the community shifts drastically. Do we know all the facts? Absolutely not. Hold judgment before you say anything you either regret, or are going to completely change your mind about tomorrow.
too much bandwagoning right now, I agree. People just jump to conclusions too quickly based on so little information.
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On August 05 2011 01:23 Beyonder wrote:
But then the question is, why did they not visit the teamhouse? This is something that we will also hear soon I'm sure. Dont base your opinion on one part of the story too swiftly.
And whoever this is sure has a lot of nerdy games hahaha
I hear that Cool likes to drink :D
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does TSL even have any legal documents to say anything?
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The thread title confuses me.
A screenshot of some turkish guy talking to an account named TSL Coach Lee on Skype with broken English is not "facts". :lol
Even if that were Coach Lee, and even if he publicly said that - it still wouldn't be "facts", just his side of the story.
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Regardless of how much they have been at the practice house, if it was agreed that they will be paid a certain amount of money, then that is the end of the issue. Lee should have released the players when he saw the issues arising.
The one stipulation is that there was a required amount of time that the players were expected to be at the practice house and the players did not follow those guidelines.
As I see it, it is pretty straight forward that the players are owed the money.
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People really need to learn how to actually make decent conclusions. Just because A = B and B = C doesn't mean A = C. Not knowing the entire story and jumping to conclusions with every new bit of information isn't going to help or clear up the situation.
Can't we just wait for official statements from both sides before we turn this into tabloid journalism :/
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On August 05 2011 01:56 drgoats wrote:
Regardless of how much they have been at the practice house, if it was agreed that they will be paid a certain amount of money, then that is the end of the issue. Lee should have released the players when he saw the issues arising.
The one stipulation is that there was a required amount of time that the players were expected to be at the practice house and the players did not follow those guidelines.
As I see it, it is pretty straight forward that the players are owed the money.
Not really, if you don't show up for work you don't get paid.
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10776 Posts
Your post count clearly shows that you are doing this not to get attention, but because of your affenction towards him. However, I don't think posting something against his will is helping him very much.
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i think everyone needs to wait to hear both sides before everyone arms their pitchforks.
and is it me or is TL becoming a very bad gossip community of E-Sports. it really starting to turn me off of reading news headline here because it always one side/bias bull-crap. lets try getting the full story before posting for Christ sake
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-.- I think what has been said before is reasonable enough: it is really bad to judge a situation and people and a team based off so little information, especially information not officially released. No statement has come from FD or Tester.
Personally, if Coach Lee did release this, he a. has a really shtty life and everything is goign wrong for him or b. is very outspoken about his grievances (read: complains/wants drama), But again I can't offer a real judgement until real facts come out.
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On August 05 2011 01:56 drgoats wrote:
Regardless of how much they have been at the practice house, if it was agreed that they will be paid a certain amount of money, then that is the end of the issue. Lee should have released the players when he saw the issues arising.
The one stipulation is that there was a required amount of time that the players were expected to be at the practice house and the players did not follow those guidelines.
As I see it, it is pretty straight forward that the players are owed the money.
But usually, if there is a contract,players agree to conditions so that they get paid.
such as minimum of 6 hours practice a day 5 days a week or else you dont get paid. etc etc
thats how i see it at least.
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IMO this drama is blown out of proportion. Coach Lee is obviously a bad coach - he can't keep his team together and the individual players are underperforming. He doesn't even have the proper sense to contract his players - look what happened to puma and he comes crying on the web about how hes the innocent father figure.
Then look at tester/fruitdealer - promising players from late beta now completely overshadowed. They say they want a practice environment that's less stringent so they leave oGs for TSL. They can't get their shit together in tournaments and they keep losing (esp FD).
Obv with all this fingerpointing in both directions, both parties need to man up and come to a conclusion - or at least they should have acted mature enough and honor deal on both ends (on wait...there was no contract?!).
tester/FD/coach lee - I hope all three get out of the sc2 scene and stop wasting everyone's time with this legal drama. Nobody is even interesting in tester/FD anymore and coach lee is a cry baby with no management skills.
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seems like talking to their own players is not TSL's strong point.
first raging at puma and eg, when everything could have been solved by talking to the player and say hey i would like to talk to eg first, before you leave.
now raging at his own players, when everything could have been solved by talking to both of the players and saying hey if u dont want to practice like we do, i will fire you.
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On August 05 2011 01:58 integrity wrote:
i think everyone needs to wait to hear both sides before everyone arms their pitchforks.
and is it me or is TL becoming a very bad gossip community of E-Sports. it really starting to turn me off of reading news headline here because it always one side/bias bull-crap. lets try getting the full story before posting for Christ sake
If you don't like the title of a thread you don't have to click it, no one is forcing you to read it.
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Unless there was a stipulation in a contract stating they they had to practice a certain amount to get paid, he was WRONG for not paying them. Regardless of if they earned it or not you still have to pay them unless it specifically says somewhere that he doesn't.
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On August 05 2011 01:57 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 01:56 drgoats wrote:
Regardless of how much they have been at the practice house, if it was agreed that they will be paid a certain amount of money, then that is the end of the issue. Lee should have released the players when he saw the issues arising.
The one stipulation is that there was a required amount of time that the players were expected to be at the practice house and the players did not follow those guidelines.
As I see it, it is pretty straight forward that the players are owed the money. Not really, if you don't show up for work you don't get paid.
FD/Trickster and TSL had an understanding that their practice would be completely up to them.
Also, if you read coach Lee's statement closely he doesn't mention anything about practice.
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lol people saying how they shouldn't be paid for not showing up. The whole world didn't know and didn't care. There are so many players (Nada) that probably go to the team house less and everyone still loves them.
They didn't have contracts and they wonder why their world went to shit. He had guys that where really good and famous them being on the team was why they where paid not what they did. TSL's probably not gona last very much longer now.
They where paid to be on the team and they where. They showed up for every match and their faces where on the TSL adverts so they should be rewarded for this.
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16987 Posts
Hi, please keep this to one thread.
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EPT
