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On June 10 2011 07:40 drlame wrote:
Steroids are illegal to use. This keyboard is not illegal, a function the keyboard has is illegal in some games when playing online. Very situational and different. You can't really compare it lol.
What? Steroids aren't illegal. They're used as medication for several diseases (even anabolic steroids, which you're probably talking about). However, it is illegal to use them for some other purposes, like increasing body mass for bodybuilding or weightlifting. This is like a famous bodybuilder in a Bayer Pharmaceuticals ad, telling people how steroids can be used to increase body mass. The product isn't illegal, but the spokesperson is teaching you how to use it for an illegal purpose.
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On June 10 2011 07:56 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 07:52 Ravencruiser wrote:
Sorry if this has already been answered:
But can keyboard macros even be detected?
I mean the blizzard server will still receive 4ddaaaaTabss as multiple key clicks right? Then again, they could implement something to detect gigantic APM fluctuations I suppose. I'm by no means an expert on how they detect cheating, but remember, every game you play, your opponent gets the replay and they can see your APM spikes, which they can report. If I was playing a Zerg, and the replay showed lightning quick larva injects, I would be suspect. There are quick, legal ways to inject, and then there are macros. Macros are way faster than even the quickest, most efficient ways of doing something.
Yea if you don't set up your macros right all of those actions would happen in milliseconds, which blizzard may or may not be able to detect (It is possible, but who knows if they are actually watching for it?) But just as in BW, multicommand stuff was always caught some how and banned. Thought I do imagine that blizzard does look at all reports against players... they are just super slow at it 
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On June 10 2011 07:52 Ravencruiser wrote:
Sorry if this has already been answered:
But can keyboard macros even be detected?
I mean the blizzard server will still receive 4ddaaaaTabss as multiple key clicks right? Then again, they could implement something to detect gigantic APM fluctuations I suppose.
Blizzard has been known to load in anti cheat software such as 'warden' as a patch to their games, if they choose to crack down on it they could as it is possible to detect the keyboard hooks the software listens for.
In all fairness you don't need the SS keyboard in order to setup macros. A program like AutoHotkey works just as well if not better (providing you have some programming/scripting skills) The SS GUI just makes it easier for the lame.
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I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on.
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On June 10 2011 06:06 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 05:12 GGzerG wrote:
XsebT I like and respect you and your views but saying that Response's comment was unbelievably stupid was just un called for, and invalid within itself, sure keyboards with macros can potentially help a player, and give a certain edge, but for a player to get this edge he has to first completely relearn how he plays the game (assuming that he didn't always play with macro keys) Which is a pretty good assumption to make, I myself have played around 10 thousand games as Zerg since the beta, for me to stop how I play and completely relearn a new way in which I would have to stop what i'm doing and hit a macro key, then no, the advantage gained over this is so small, and the player with the better mechanics, apm, and skill will still almost always win, this is not giving anyone a huge advantage to win games, Everyone needs to think more logically instead of just thinking "Omg he can press 1 key and do multiple things" , it's not like the macro keys on a keyboard are going to win games for you. As a Brood War player, I have a really hard time learning to utilize MBS (I believe you can get a third party cheat tool that allows for MBS in bw, so I feel like this example fits well). Sometimes I accidentally group units with buildings and mess stuff up and things like that. Playing SC2 is hard for me because of that, and it will no doubt take quite a bit "getting used to". However, that does not make it any less of an advantage. The same thing goes for macros. Maybe Response wouldn't be able to benefit from them right away, but that does not mean their potential should be ignored like he did. You could call his comment short sighted or whatever, though I went "stupid" and I feel like that's completely justified.
XsebT I like and respect you and your views as well and let me say I agree with you completely. These "macros" have NO ROOM in the place of RTS competition, they should be 100% barred in all circumstances, situations, everything.
From the roots of this, the fundamental problem arises. Blizzard themselves, as well as all the major gaming peripheral companies (SteelS, Razer) are selling SC2 Branded keyboards, with these macro functions built in. What can we infer from that? They are meant to be used in Starcraft 2 legally. That is wherein the argument of SteelSeries & Grubby being "wrong" is shattered making in what I believe this thread title slanderous and simply asinine, all it is is bringing attention to this thread focusing on the topic (of Grubby & SteelSeries in wrong) while ignoring the BIGGER PICTURE (Why are Sc2 keyboards being sold with macros built into them by Blizzard and other companies?)+ Show Spoiler + I honestly cannot believe this thread title is still up, I'm losing faith in the Sc2 General sub-forum mods.
There is no doubt any macros are stupid, but this advertisement is a byproduct of sc2 keyboards being sold with macros in the first place. All this is, is showing you how to properly use these macros which are PRESENT in Blizzard, AND Razer Sc2 Keyboards. All of them are in the wrong, these macros have no place in RTS competition. In casual play, maybe. That is where the market is leaning toward anyway, casual gamers. So this shouldn't be a huge "surprise" to anyone.
All Grubby did is read the script his sponsors told him to, anyone who says Grubby condones cheating needs to do their homework on one of the gaming legends of the RTS genre. SteelSeries is at fault here for making a dubious commercial like this, but they aren't doing anything illegal or telling anyone to do anything illegal in my opinion.
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On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote:
I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on.
Oh, really? May I ask what game these keyboards are for and whether or not blizzard TOS allow for these macros to be used in SC2?
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On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote:
I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on.
O' White Knight of White Knights. Ye hath rode to our rescue. Long shall we shower praises of sweet blissful harmony upon thy vaunted head for...
...Claiming to read 30 pages of discussion and missing each post in which several people have already submitted the same point you have, only to be disproven time and time again when someone points out Blizzard doesn't explicitly encourage you to use macro keys specifically for Starcraft 2 in the way Steelseries did in their advertisement.
In fact, they have banned people in the past and continue to assert that any macro setup involving 1 key press being mapped to multiple actions is a bannable offense.
I thank you for delivering us from the darkness. You are a true hero.
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On June 10 2011 06:19 ptbl wrote:
PS: HI Skamtet, still posting in the OT on AJ?
T_T omg yes
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D .. that'll be my drones.. ill make U my units, M for mass expanding since just one expansion would be too easy.. and maybe B for engaging all enemy bases, since i can atk all at once..
really you only have to press them once, at the start just jab ur macros
d u m b
edit: and thats my last input. helping put the topic to rest by leaving it alone ty all for insight on the matter
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On June 10 2011 08:15 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote:
I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. O' White Knight of White Knights. Ye hath rode to our rescue. Long shall we shower praises of sweet blissful harmony upon thy vaunted head for... ...Claiming to read 30 pages of discussion and missing each post in which several people have already submitted the same point you have, only to be disproven time and time again when someone points out Blizzard doesn't explicitly encourage you to use macro keys specifically for Starcraft 2 in the way Steelseries did in their advertisement. In fact, they have banned people in the past and continue to assert that any macro setup involving 1 key press being mapped to multiple actions is a bannable offense. I thank you for delivering us from the darkness. You are a true hero.
I think they do when the keyboard is skinned for SC2 and advertised explicitly while playing SC2. It's a lot of assuming, either way, that the macro keys + software were made not be used with the game. Either way blizzard didn't help themselves by making the keyboard.
Edit: Also if the policy is to ban people for macros then they're idiots because their keyboard has this function so it's misleading. "Hey guys we're selling this sc2 keyboard with all these great buttons oh and by the way you can't use these keys over here or this software. glhf"
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I hate macros, and wish there would be no such things - but on the other hand I don't see this as violation of Blizzard's rules (sadly). The program here is being memorized and executed within the hardware itself, not in the OS, so Blizzard cannot even detect it. Thus: SteelSeries may make us angry, but are likely not promoting anything illegal (nor is Grubby), and the ad would probably not be taken down.
To all macro-users out there - if I were you, I would only use macros in special channels against people who confirm to also use macros. Otherwise I have no idea how it could be fun for you.
edit: Oh shit, this is really bad for online tournaments.  You can't know who played straight and who macroed. Blah.. well, the ultimate incentive against macros are the live tournaments - you won't be able to use your macro tricks there; where the real big money is.
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On June 10 2011 08:26 figq wrote:
I hate macros, and wish there would be no such things - but on the other hand I don't see this as violation of Blizzard's rules (sadly). The program here is being memorized and executed within the hardware itself, not in the OS, so Blizzard cannot even detect it. Thus: SteelSeries may make us angry, but are likely not promoting anything illegal (nor is Grubby), and the ad would probably not be taken down.
To all macro-users out there - if I were you, I would only use macros in special channels against people who confirm to also use macros. Otherwise I have no idea how it could be fun for you.
If you read the thread...
"Greetings,
Using macros can get you banned. Its not illegal to use the keyboard. However, it is illegal to basically bot anything. You must have to push the key yourself. You can't map out 5 actions to one button. You can be banned for that.
Devin W
Game Master Taudarak
Customer Services
Blizzard Entertainment"
On teamliquid.
topic_id=146760
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On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote:
I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on.
Nothing is wrong with a keyboard having macro capabilities like it has been said already its great for mmo gaming, but it is illegal in sc2 ladder and tournament play, and here you have a competitive sc2 player promoting macro use in the game he plays professionally. I just don't see how this is acceptable.
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On June 10 2011 00:09 Ahelvin wrote:
I think Grubby was asked to do a commercial in exchange for some money, and of course he accepted because he is a rational human being.
That being said, it is a major FAIL from Steelseries to promote something that is against Blizzard's ToS not only in tournament, but also in ladder gaming or custom games.
Moral of the story? Grubby made some money, Steelseries' credibility has been hindered, commercial will be removed soon.
Remember that creating a macro within a keyboard, is not a cheat in itself from the ToS.
This is because of the fact that you need to press a button to activate that macro, and in Blizzards twisted sense of rules at times, this is allowed. Same with WoW and multi-boxing 
Unless I majorly fucked up lol
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On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote:
I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on.
I find it amusing that you pretend to read 30 pages of discussion, when it would be so easy to even just read a mod like Jibba to find out just how wrong you are. It has been mentioned already.
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Keyboard macros won't help you become a better player nor help you win games.
The advantage they bring is marginal at the very least and if you are winning because of it, you were probably playing horribly to begin with.
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On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote:
I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on.
Except it has been pointed out several times. I find it amusing that you make assumptions about the discussion without having even looked at it. Congrats, you can now move on.
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On June 10 2011 08:34 Zombo Joe wrote:
Keyboard macros won't help you become a better player nor help you win games.
The advantage they bring is marginal at the very least and if you are winning because of it, you were probably playing horribly to begin with.
Agreed, except for the playing horribly part...
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On June 10 2011 08:29 ptbl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 08:26 figq wrote:
I hate macros, and wish there would be no such things - but on the other hand I don't see this as violation of Blizzard's rules (sadly). The program here is being memorized and executed within the hardware itself, not in the OS, so Blizzard cannot even detect it. Thus: SteelSeries may make us angry, but are likely not promoting anything illegal (nor is Grubby), and the ad would probably not be taken down.
To all macro-users out there - if I were you, I would only use macros in special channels against people who confirm to also use macros. Otherwise I have no idea how it could be fun for you. If you read the thread... "Greetings, Using macros can get you banned. Its not illegal to use the keyboard. However, it is illegal to basically bot anything. You must have to push the key yourself. You can't map out 5 actions to one button. You can be banned for that. Devin W Game Master Taudarak Customer Services Blizzard Entertainment" On teamliquid. topic_id=146760 Thanks, missed that, it's somewhat encouraging. Although, I still don't think they have a way of detecting it, unless the automated ("bot"  ) input is obviously too fast/simultaneous, to be human. I think issues of this sort are going to get only tougher in the future.
Perhaps they can detect identical sequences of commands in multiple games - with time sequences being perfectly identical. Yes, this could work to catch potential abusers.
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EPT
