On May 30 2011 23:47 SimonB wrote:
I don't care about the Bonjwa title if Savior defined it. Flash has already completely obliterated Savior's career accomplishments in every way. He, along with Nada, Oov, and Jaedong are well ahead of Savior at this point.

If Savior is Bonjwa, they're beyond, and significantly so.

Winning against the best TvZ players in the world (AKA never losing a bo3/bo5 to them), destroying every Protoss he came across, rarely losing on RT and Longinus which two of the most unbalanced maps ever for zerg and making 5 straight MSL finals makes them way ahead of him?

some people are hard to please

savior won consistent titles at a time when zerg werent doing so great, and he did it against top class zerg killers

The only Terran killer he won against in 2010 in SL's that I would consider top class is Jaedong since he lost to effort. He did go 3-2 against Fantasy if you consider him top class TvT.

SimonB

United States1088 Posts

May 30 2011 17:22 GMT

#63

On May 31 2011 00:20 Lightwip wrote:

Show nested quote +

Savior definitely did way more than Flash. You may say Savior had less titles, but he was consistently unbeatable on the most ridiculous of maps. All of Flash's MSL wins had a few nice maps(Odd Eye hi) helping him out. Flash, on the other hand, complained about Bloody Ridge being impossible. Savior certainly looked more invincible during his time.
I certainly do have my reasons for questioning Flash's bonjwa status, but Savior was more impressive whether or not he is.

Whether it be titles, ELO, winning percentage (overall and through various intervals of the peak), Nada, oov, Jaedong, and Flash are just so objectively better, but apparently counteracting all of that is this issue of maps, which has been grossly overstated with so many small samples. It cuts both ways too. Savior's greatest strength was probably his ZvP over his ZvT. What do you guys think some of those maps were like for PvZ? Another idea that seems to be passed off as truth is his glorified competition, where apparently guys like Hwasin, Iris, and Casy are suddenly remembered as these incredible unbeatable terrans.

Beyond being inferior by every single measure, one of the most important things that's often forgotten: Savior had a very light workload compared to those who dominated before and those who dominated after. He was knocked out of the OSL season after season (oh, but that doesn't count against his so-called ultimate dominance), and he did not play as many proleague games, nor was he a fraction of the kind of proleague monsters that Flash and Jaedong have consistently been. Savior was able prepare almost exclusively for MSLs.

I really don't think this is given enough attention; especially since Flash and Jaedong have constantly had to battle not only their opponents, but their schedules in. Earlier in Flash's career, this really affected him. Even when he wasn't winning titles, he was always one of the best, putting up percentages that put Savior to shame, but he'd usually get halfway into the OSL and MSL before flaming out of both at the same time because of overwork. It's quite the testament that he managed to overcome that last year and play three consecutive double finals, which must be without a shadow of a doubt, considered the greatest peak of any player.

TwoToneTerran

United States8841 Posts

May 30 2011 17:27 GMT

#64

Being a bonjwa is about mastering the art of making yourself seem unstoppable -- whether or not you are. It has nothing to do with winning a certain # of titles, or being some percentage of winrate, or whatever. It has no strict means of accomplishments, even though those will naturally come with it. Savior was clearly beatable when he was a bonjwa, as seen in most of his OSL runs, or even in his ZvZ against Chojja, but these losses, and even his winning percentage, meant nothing because he had a perception of uncontested domination (when this clearly wasn't the case).

No single player has ever been unbeatable. No single player has ever been truly uncontested. The Bonjwas just make most everyone think there's something unfair about the game when they play, and that's about it. There's no specific requirements beyond that.

chocorush

694 Posts

May 30 2011 17:28 GMT

#65

It's not about whether or not the maps were imbalanced. It's about whether or not a single player has completely risen above the rest, and Savior was way, way, way better than every other person to play Brood War.

While Jaedong has always been extremely strong, he never really pulled that far ahead of everyone else. After Flash's amazing 2010 run of 6 consecutive starleague finals, it looked like he did pull that far ahead, but perhaps it was premature to call him bonjwa.

flashimba

225 Posts

May 30 2011 17:34 GMT

#66

There is no reason to debate whether Flash is a bonjwa or not. Flash created the God line.

There can be more than one bonjwa, but only one God.

Sovetsky Soyuz

Russian Federation905 Posts

May 30 2011 17:48 GMT

#67

On May 31 2011 02:34 flashimba wrote:
There is no reason to debate whether Flash is a bonjwa or not. Flash created the God line.

There can be more than one bonjwa, but only one God.

LOL. what is this.

ID = flashimba
post = flash fanboyism
team = khan (so not to be too obvious)
created = may 31, 2011
posts = 1

Why did you have to hide behind a new account to get your fanboy fix? Insecure about your opinion? Look at JD fanboys, they're bashed left and right but they are proud. You are doing Flash the opposite because of this. Are you ashamed to be a Flash fan? Come out and reveal yourself.