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Stop it with the spoiler tags |
On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote:The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south. Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
-AP My opinions? + Show Spoiler +It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins.
We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves.
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On May 20 2011 11:23 mowglie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote:The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south. Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
-AP My opinions? + Show Spoiler +It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins. We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves.
Nearly all Christians act contrary to the bible, in at least some way.
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On May 20 2011 11:24 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 11:23 mowglie wrote:On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote:The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south. Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
-AP My opinions? + Show Spoiler +It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins. We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves. Nearly all Christians act contrary to the bible, in at least some way.
Thanks for that gem.
Of course its true, everyone knows its true. I think it was just a pointless post with no relevance to his point. Its like saying he committed murder, but everyone speeds. Pointless........
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On May 20 2011 11:26 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 11:24 Olinim wrote:On May 20 2011 11:23 mowglie wrote:On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote:The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south. Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
-AP My opinions? + Show Spoiler +It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins. We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves. Nearly all Christians act contrary to the bible, in at least some way. Thanks for that gem
What? It's true.
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this thread has got to be+ Show Spoiler +the thread with the most spoiler tags
crazy shit
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Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time.
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On May 20 2011 11:36 iamho wrote:
Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time.
Why?
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Vatican City State53 Posts
As Pope Benedict XVI once said:
In my suffering Lord, I am brought closer to you...
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On May 20 2011 11:39 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 11:36 iamho wrote:
Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time. Why?
This guy is right - how are scientists and the world's other productive people going to solve real problems if they have to constantly babysit the slobbering, unwashed hordes who currently argue religion on the internet?
Think about it, man.
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On May 20 2011 11:44 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 11:39 Olinim wrote:On May 20 2011 11:36 iamho wrote:
Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time. Why? This guy is right - how are scientists and the world's other productive people going to solve real problems if they have to constantly babysit the slobbering, unwashed hordes who currently argue religion on the internet? Think about it, man.
You act as if I've dedicated hours to this debate, when it takes me like 20 seconds to type a post, while I'm watching NASL, obviously a grievous misuse of my time.
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On May 19 2011 08:58 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:56 GreEny K wrote:On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote:
If he wants to kill himself that's fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
Do we need a rehash of the fan death thread? Actually yes, I don't remember that one... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=77911It was just the police who made it up because they didn't want to do real work. There was some crime scene with dead bodies and a fan on. Case closed, unsolved, omfg fan death.
That fan death thread was one of the funniest things I've ever seen, thank you for that. I've never even heard of that! There's a south korean girl I know.. I need to ask her about this immediately
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There's a ton of people in this world that will do crazy/stupid things in the name of religion. that is the exchange of "X" act, gives me "Y" status from God. That's entirely contrary to what the bible gives account that God is a god that lives and walks and communes with you, who gives you forgiveness not because of what you did but because his son already died for it.
Anyone who takes his own life, for whatever reason isn't accurately representing the will of the God of the bible, because he said he gives you life, and life more abundantly. He said that you're the head and not the tail, above and not beneath. He said that you are the righteousness of God in Christ. He said that you are a chosen generation, a holy nation, a peculiar people. That you are an ambassador of God on earth. He said that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost and it is not yours to do what you will. Why would you take your life when you have a heavenly status from Him? You can't be a light in the world for God if you're killing yourself, either slowly with sin, or immediately through suicide.
It's my opinion that religiosity is the main enemy of God in this world, not atheism. Many people will rather try to do something, no matter how crazy or detrimental to themselves (including suicide), instead of just repenting and changing your ways, or apologizing, or admitting your guilt. It's why we have homicide bombers, and the holocaust. People doing stuff, thinking that it will somehow buy them righteousness when it's impossible to do so by yourself.
You can't do enough or buy enough, or give enough to get forgiveness. It's a gift that was already paid for. You just have to receive it and then live your life inspired by it.
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On May 20 2011 08:37 Demon Hunter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote:
Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane.
How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world. Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
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The story the police came out with to explain the murder is almost as ridiculous as Demon Hunter.
<Demon Hunter> "Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind." - I agree with this point though.
Its a shame the forum rules prevent me from pointing out the actual perpetrator though. shame, it would have been a harsh and much needed GG for 99% of the posters 
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On May 20 2011 12:42 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 08:37 Demon Hunter wrote:On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote:
Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane.
How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world. Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions. You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me. Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding. I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas. I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality. This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common). To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul. Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
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On May 20 2011 13:47 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 12:42 flowSthead wrote:On May 20 2011 08:37 Demon Hunter wrote:On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote:
Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane.
How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world. Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions. You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me. Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding. I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas. I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality. This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common). To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul. Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion. Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does. Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
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Very sad. Clearly he missed the symbolism/metaphor in Christ's call to 'take up your cross and follow me.'
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On May 20 2011 15:01 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:47 Olinim wrote:On May 20 2011 12:42 flowSthead wrote:On May 20 2011 08:37 Demon Hunter wrote:On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote:
Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane.
How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world. Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions. You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me. Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding. I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas. I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality. This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common). To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul. Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion. Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does. Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational. No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion. I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point. Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority. I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process. Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH?????
There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim.
The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On May 20 2011 15:01 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:47 Olinim wrote:On May 20 2011 12:42 flowSthead wrote:On May 20 2011 08:37 Demon Hunter wrote:On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote:
Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane.
How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world. Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions. You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me. Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding. I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas. I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality. This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common). To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul. Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion. Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does. Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational. No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion. I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point. Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority. I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process. Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Very well said by FlowSthead: that indeed Christianity has has it's ups and downs and that we have done a lot of things contrary to Christ's will in the past, in the present and I'm sure in the future.
Yet we persist in living out our life, to serve others in society with love, knowing that as we sin each day we can come to Christ and be forgiven. It is in this forgiveness we find the hope and the courage to continue to love others around us and show our gratitude to God for all that he has given us. All of the posts here saying that Christianity is irrational, ludicrous and incredulous is quite understandable. In the not too distant past when I didn't believe in Jesus, I had no ear for the gospel and laughed off the claims of my Christian friends with disdain. You may even be doing better than me by not having disdain / contempt for Christians (which I had previously). After all, Jesus did promise that the gospel will tear apart brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives. It is no surprise that on a TL forum we can have such passionate debates!!
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I'd just like to point out that this guy is way more hardcore than Jesus. Jesus had like, a dozen people helping him die, this guy did it all on his own and it sounds like it was a lot more painful too.
Next time someone on the street tells me that Jesus suffered and died for my sins, I'm going to regale them with the tale of Mr. Kim who managed to suffer and die for my sins in an even more impressive fashion.
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