The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler.
A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins.
Probably just a severe case of schizophrenia. This is the source of the article and note that the police officer who spoke to the press spoke under anonymity so it's unlikely the details would be released in order to prevent copycat suicides:
That is really hardcore if it is a suicide and he did it all unassisted. I suppose if the cross wasn't vertical and was just on the ground it would make sense. If it was vertical I can't imagine a way he could bolt his feet to it and then do the rest of the operation on his own.
If it was a vertical cross, and assisted suicide is illegal there, then they've got some hunting to do.
That is really hardcore if it is a suicide and he did it all unassisted. I suppose if the cross wasn't vertical and was just on the ground it would make sense. If it was vertical I can't imagine a way he could bolt his feet to it and then do the rest of the operation on his own.
If it was a vertical cross, and assisted suicide is illegal there, then they've got some hunting to do.
The emulation theory may be correct - he wanted to be true to the original, not like these unfaithful ones who are taken down later alive:
"Millions of people in the mainly Roman Catholic country of the Philippines celebrate Easter every year, with some penitents following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ even up to the point of being nailed to a cross"
This kind of thing isn't too unheard of, and frequently self-inflicted (or at least intended, since it is difficult to literally inflict upon oneself) From wikipedia page on the matter:
Devotional crucifixions are also common in the Philippines. Worshipers drive thin nails through the palm of the hand, a step is used to stand on, and the period is short, not a full crucifixion. One man named Rolando del Campo who was a carpenter in Pampanga vowed to be crucified every Good Friday for 15 years if God would carry his wife through a difficult childbirth. In San Pedro Cutud, devotee Ruben Enaje has been crucified 21 times, as of 2007, during Passion Week celebrations. Although the country's dominant Catholic Church disapproves of the ritual, the Filipino government says it cannot stop the devotees from crucifying and whipping themselves. The health department insists that those taking part in the rituals should have tetanus shots and that the nails used to pierce their limbs should be sterilized.
There were reports of this in the news around Easter time; the Vatican denounced such acts
On May 19 2011 04:59 Demon Hunter wrote: The emulation theory may be correct - he wanted to be true to the original, not like these unfaithful ones who are taken down later alive:
"Millions of people in the mainly Roman Catholic country of the Philippines celebrate Easter every year, with some penitents following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ even up to the point of being nailed to a cross"
On May 19 2011 04:59 Demon Hunter wrote: The emulation theory may be correct - he wanted to be true to the original, not like these unfaithful ones who are taken down later alive:
"Millions of people in the mainly Roman Catholic country of the Philippines celebrate Easter every year, with some penitents following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ even up to the point of being nailed to a cross"
If he drilled one hand, then how the fuck did he drill the other hand? Holding the drill between his legs or something? But that's not possible, because he already nailed his feet to the cross. Unless he has insane muscles in his legs or something so he can actually bend over and do it. Or did he drill the holes prior to the nailing of the feet? In that case, how did he manage to nail his feet?
If you get bored of the beginning skip to 1:47. really really interesting.. It is supposedly the Holy Ghost taking control of people. There are many videos like this about korea on youtube
On May 19 2011 04:59 Demon Hunter wrote: The emulation theory may be correct - he wanted to be true to the original, not like these unfaithful ones who are taken down later alive:
"Millions of people in the mainly Roman Catholic country of the Philippines celebrate Easter every year, with some penitents following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ even up to the point of being nailed to a cross"
Jesus is probably just thinking to himself "...are they stupid? I was executed on a cross, it has nothing to do with the religion.. and why while I'm complaining why are they all drinking wine at church.."
OT: Wow, that guy is one hardcore religious guy. Wonder what pain he felt :T Why do people think that you have to commit such extreme practices to show your love for god etc
This guy, however, is hardcore. Nailing his own feet and then taking a drill to his hands so he can slip them onto pre-hammered nails? That's fucking metal.
Isn't this guy going to hell because suicide is a sin? So either he's wrong about the whole Christianity thing and he went through all that suffering for nothing, or worse he is right and now he's gonna burn in hell for eternity.
Jesus Christ and I thought the samurai way of suicide was extreme. That's.. I don't even know what to call it. Sad? He did what he wanted though I imagine, because you'd really have to fucking want that to pull it off.
On May 19 2011 05:14 vyyye wrote: Jesus Christ and I thought the samurai way of suicide was extreme. That's.. I don't even know what to call it. Sad? He did what he wanted though I imagine, because you'd really have to fucking want that to pull it off.
korea may not be the most religious country (close to half is atheist/agnostic) but they are, in my opinion, one of the most superstitious group of people.
their jesus camp sickens me. can you imagine the academic pressure that korean kids receive but towards religion? fuckin' A.
On May 19 2011 05:14 Slow Motion wrote: Isn't this guy going to hell because suicide is a sin? So either he's wrong about the whole Christianity thing and he went through all that suffering for nothing, or worse he is right and now he's gonna burn in hell for eternity.
In his mind what he did was an act of devotion not a sin, so he goes to heaven. In the mind of many Christians he commited a mortal sin and goes to hell. According to some Muslims he was following the wrong God and he was going to hell either way.
Who's to say which one of these (if any) is right?
On May 19 2011 05:14 Slow Motion wrote: Isn't this guy going to hell because suicide is a sin? So either he's wrong about the whole Christianity thing and he went through all that suffering for nothing, or worse he is right and now he's gonna burn in hell for eternity.
In his mind what he did was an act of devotion not a sin, so he goes to heaven. In the mind of many Christians he commited a mortal sin and goes to hell. According to some Muslims he was following the wrong God and he was going to hell either way.
Who's to say which one of these (if any) is right?
On May 19 2011 05:14 Slow Motion wrote: Isn't this guy going to hell because suicide is a sin? So either he's wrong about the whole Christianity thing and he went through all that suffering for nothing, or worse he is right and now he's gonna burn in hell for eternity.
In his mind what he did was an act of devotion not a sin, so he goes to heaven. In the mind of many Christians he commited a mortal sin and goes to hell. According to some Muslims he was following the wrong God and he was going to hell either way.
Who's to say which one of these (if any) is right?
I can't believe something like this happened and I can't imagine how an adult can perform such an act on themselves. While reading, I tried to imagine but it just seems way too painful.
I'd have to say that committing suicide just contradicts any biblical teaching in Christianity. What I'm wondering about is... what lead him to do this...
On May 19 2011 05:29 mangina wrote: one... crazy... read
I can't believe something like this happened and I can't imagine how an adult can perform such an act on themselves. While reading, I tried to imagine but it just seems way too painful.
I'd have to say that committing suicide just contradicts any biblical teaching in Christianity. What I'm wondering about is... what lead him to do this...
On May 19 2011 05:14 Slow Motion wrote: Isn't this guy going to hell because suicide is a sin? So either he's wrong about the whole Christianity thing and he went through all that suffering for nothing, or worse he is right and now he's gonna burn in hell for eternity.
In his mind what he did was an act of devotion not a sin, so he goes to heaven. In the mind of many Christians he commited a mortal sin and goes to hell. According to some Muslims he was following the wrong God and he was going to hell either way.
Who's to say which one of these (if any) is right?
On May 19 2011 05:14 Slow Motion wrote: Isn't this guy going to hell because suicide is a sin? So either he's wrong about the whole Christianity thing and he went through all that suffering for nothing, or worse he is right and now he's gonna burn in hell for eternity.
In his mind what he did was an act of devotion not a sin, so he goes to heaven. In the mind of many Christians he commited a mortal sin and goes to hell. According to some Muslims he was following the wrong God and he was going to hell either way.
Who's to say which one of these (if any) is right?
I thought you cant support the weight of your body from nails in your hands. There is nothing stopping the nails from just ripping through your hands from the weight of your body
On May 19 2011 05:52 Dizmaul wrote: I thought you cant support the weight of your body from nails in your hands. There is nothing stopping the nails from just ripping through your hands from the weight of your body
He tied himself by the neck to the cross as well. Hell of a lot of work, I'm actually impressed.
It is likely he was suffering from some sort of mental illness--perhaps a delusional disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or a psychotic break of some kind. In all of these cases, it is common to experience "delusions of grandeur". One of the most common delusions is to believe one's self to actually be Jesus Christ.
If the above is true: If he were to tell people he was Jesus, they would (of course) not believe him. BUT many people did not believe the "real" Jesus to be the son of God, so OF COURSE this man's peers would likewise not believe he was Jesus either. How did Jesus "prove" himself (I know this is a simplification)? He was crucified for the benefit of all. ---> How can this man prove he is Jesus? You know the rest.
This story is another example of how the mind alone can enable people to do almost anything. So it's no surprise that Mind just demolished Hydra 3-0, though smackdown was pretty hilarious. Good to see him advance to ro4.
This story is another example of how the mind alone can enable people to do almost anything. So it's no surprise that Mind just demolished Hydra 3-0, though smackdown was pretty hilarious. Good to see him advance to ro4.
Edit: Also epic 50th post.
Yup it's like his mind was as confused as Inka's when he lost the GSL finals to nestea. Doing nothing that make sense. Which reminds me of how mvp DonRaeGu almost all killed Ogs and advanced to the finals of the GSTL. That was so unexpected that many getting suicidal just like this case.
no... i hate all the stereotypes made from such news. crucifying yourself is not loving jesus. that's the direct opposite. it's like spitting on his face.
How do you know God didn't ask him to do it? Maybe he had a revelation? Isn't it just a matter of faith?
no... i hate all the stereotypes made from such news. crucifying yourself is not loving jesus. that's the direct opposite. it's like spitting on his face.
I'm quite sure he did not go through the trouble of crucifying himself to spit in Jesus face, unless he was a very devoted devil worshipper.
He probably thought he would reach heaven after his deed, or who knows, maybe he figured he died for our sins.
Pretty outrageous that OP would blame Christianity and/or the church. IMO
I do believe Jesus Christ died for my sins and everyone else's on this planet and there is a HUGE chunk of the worlds population that holds my exact same belief.
On May 19 2011 06:31 Essentia wrote: Pretty outrageous that OP would blame Christianity and/or the church. IMO
I do believe Jesus Christ died for my sins and everyone else's on this planet and there is a HUGE chunk of the worlds population that holds my exact same belief.
So what? The whole world used to believe that the world is flat, doesn't prove that the world was flat, just proves that people are really stupid i,e, religion. But obviously Christianity wasn't really the direct cause of this, merely fuel for his insanity, he was obviously deeply disturbed prior to any religious affiliations.
I don't think many Christians believe that being crucified is the type of suffering you will find in the afterlife if you don't accept that Jesus died for your sins. I don't think a true Christian would think you should suffer in the afterlife if you don't accept that Jesus died for your sins.
On May 19 2011 06:14 Thrill wrote: Wow, didn't expect the second coming of christ to happen so soon? Still quite a while to go before judgement day - we're on 2011 now, not 2012!
Isn't next week some kind of supposed judgement day? if that's the case, it perfect timing lol.
On May 19 2011 06:14 Thrill wrote: Wow, didn't expect the second coming of christ to happen so soon? Still quite a while to go before judgement day - we're on 2011 now, not 2012!
Isn't next week some kind of supposed judgement day? if that's the case, it perfect timing lol.
On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote: If he wants to kill himself, fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
Do we need a rehash of the fan death thread?
Just a bit I wondered how in the world he accomplished that shit unassisted
On May 19 2011 06:45 wrk592 wrote: I don't think many Christians believe that being crucified is the type of suffering you will find in the afterlife if you don't accept that Jesus died for your sins. I don't think a true Christian would think you should suffer in the afterlife if you don't accept that Jesus died for your sins.
SMH...
Jesus seemed to think you would end up somewhere: "Where the fire does not burn out, where there will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth, and it is better to pluck out your eye and cut off your hand if you watch porn and masturbate than suffer hellfire with both your eyes and hands in death" (Matthew chapter something verse something).
On May 19 2011 05:53 krndandaman wrote: no... i hate all the stereotypes made from such news. crucifying yourself is not loving jesus. that's the direct opposite. it's like spitting on his face.
You've got to admit the fact that the 'love' Jesus showed was pretty ridiculous in the first place. God is angry at us because He created us imperfect expecting us to be perfect, so as a way of showing that He forgives us without blaming Himself is to come down to Earth to kill Himself as a sacrifice to Himself in order to gratify His anger. I'd say what this guy did was the direct correlation to what God did.
On May 19 2011 06:31 Essentia wrote: Pretty outrageous that OP would blame Christianity and/or the church. IMO
I do believe Jesus Christ died for my sins and everyone else's on this planet and there is a HUGE chunk of the worlds population that holds my exact same belief.
Why not blame Christianity and the Church? Do you think this kind of thing would have happened without religious delusions of grandeur? Would you blame Islam for suicide bombings, or does Islam have zero blame for the brainwashing of fanatics?
Do they really expect us to believe that someone would be able to do that completely on their own? You've gotta be effing kidding me. Even if this dude was on some kind of super crazy drug-induced megaultra high/trip/whateverthefck it would be near impossible. And with street drugs being much harder to obtain in SK that could easily be ruled out.
On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote: If he wants to kill himself that's fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
On May 19 2011 07:55 bokchoi wrote: Do they really expect us to believe that someone would be able to do that completely on their own? You've gotta be effing kidding me. Even if this dude was on some kind of super crazy drug-induced megaultra high/trip/whateverthefck it would be near impossible. And with street drugs being much harder to obtain in SK that could easily be ruled out.
Why not blame Christianity and the Church? Do you think this kind of thing would have happened without religious delusions of grandeur? Would you blame Islam for suicide bombings, or does Islam have zero blame for the brainwashing of fanatics?
Well eliminating religion won't prevent people from being retarded, they're pretty retarded on their own just fine, but it sure does fuel it.
Even tho religion has the notion that it conforms people to its own doctrine, while that is true too in some cases, I find this to be the opposite in lot of cases. Most people have their own inner belief. Religion and its retardedly vague guideline serves as a justification for what you already believe in. This is why believers have so many schisms and can't agree on a single thing. Belief in god in many cases is simply an upgrade from "because I said so" to "because god said so". Very rarely people accept beliefs that conflicts with their own.
To take your suicide bombing example. Yes islam is guilty of providing a justification for these ppl. But without islam, people will still commit acts they already believe in. They'll be a lot less tho that's for sure. Without divine purpose, justification to kill self + and others gets really thin all of sudden.
This story is another example of how the mind alone can enable people to do almost anything. So it's no surprise that Mind just demolished Hydra 3-0, though smackdown was pretty hilarious. Good to see him advance to ro4.
Edit: Also epic 50th post.
Yup it's like his mind was as confused as Inka's when he lost the GSL finals to nestea. Doing nothing that make sense. Which reminds me of how mvp DonRaeGu almost all killed Ogs and advanced to the finals of the GSTL. That was so unexpected that many getting suicidal just like this case.
I always wanted to know what was going through snape's mind when he killed dumbledore.
On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote: If he wants to kill himself that's fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
Do we need a rehash of the fan death thread?
I remember some saying about how the FBI solves crimes with their heads and Korean police solves crimes with their feet.
On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote: If he wants to kill himself that's fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
It was just the police who made it up because they didn't want to do real work. There was some crime scene with dead bodies and a fan on. Case closed, unsolved, omfg fan death.
Still cannot be sure whether he committed suicide or not, though the article says it is most likely. There is always a slight possibility of sick murder.
BTW current korean president Lee Myung Bak is deeply affiliated in christian church (holding some major position there), as he would not want to build up already bad images upon christians.
Damn koreans are too much infested with religion execessively (some christians are even vandalized statues in elementary schools and buddhist temples), always advertising and urging people to come to their churches everywhere including subways and streets.
Damn koreans are too much infested with religion execessively (some christians are even vandalized statues in elementary schools and buddhist temples), always advertising and urging people to come to their churches everywhere including subways and streets.
That's what happens when highly superstitious, conformist, and cultish society meets new religion from a VERY impressionable culture.
If it was a death that would have anything to do with Islam that Jesus poster of TL would be all over this thread preaching how hateful the Islam is :D
On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote: If he wants to kill himself that's fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
It was just the police who made it up because they didn't want to do real work. There was some crime scene with dead bodies and a fan on. Case closed, unsolved, omfg fan death.
Was this in more than one occasion or was it simply a single case and because of it, it blew up large enough to deserve it's own Wikipedia page?
Back on topic: Did they specifically state the believe time of death/crucification was on Easter itself? And if so... What took people so long in order to find his body?
It's always bothers me how the West has exported such a shameful thing as Christianity to Korea. It bothers me even more how quickly and easily so much of Korea has adopted this "foreign devil" religion and taken it to even greater extremes than the American South.
sorry but this just sounds hella mental. jeezzzzz....thats some effed up crap.
i can't believe someone went through with this.
my question though is he couldn't have done it himself? he musta had help...so if he did there had to be assistance...i guess it gets sticky from there.
I find this post incredibly offensive. Someone please report this. =/
What are you "incredibly offended" by? Please elaborate. Homosexuality is condemned by Christianity. Atheists don't care for Jesus.
As far as the topic goes... religion isn't really to blame for anything in this case. The man was clearly mentally ill, and if he wasn't crucifying himself it's not unlikely he would be getting himself killed in some other way. I'm amazingly impressed the guy managed to do this on his own though (if that is indeed what happened). How exactly do you manage to nail your legs to a cross AND drill holes through both of your hands AND tie your neck with wire? That's got to take an incredible amount of determination. + Show Spoiler +
I guess you'd have to nail your legs, then tie your neck, THEN drill your hands (and plop them over the pre-nailed nails). If you did it in any other way you wouldnt be able to use your hands, as they'd have drill holes in them already
Wow that's a real feat of the will right there. Even though I think it's unnecessary and for a false cause, the man's spiritual conviction is impressive.
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
You mean Science flies bombs into buildings? Or drops bombs that destroy whole cities?
Science simply provides the know-how, as far as I know religion is to this date the number 1 reason for war. (Or atleast the number 1 tool of war if you will)
OT: I can't help but feel that without religion this man would still be alive, surely the man was way out of his mind when he did this to himself, but this specific idea atleast would've never popped into his head if it wasn't for religion.
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
You mean Science flies bombs into buildings? Or drops bombs that destroy whole cities?
Fail. Stick to religious texts which you can interpret anyway you'd like.
edit: I can't get over how dumb that post was. He just said science was why the 9/11 terrorists flew a plane into a building? Or we nuked Japan for the sake of science? Or like...science invented the planes the terrorists flew, so really its sciences fault. My mind is literally exploding with reasons that was the worst post of the year so far.
Stop blaming religion for megalomaniac delusions... Everyone is tired of people preaching their religious beliefs in an attempt to force it on to others - guess what, the same goes for your atheistic beliefs, if both sides would shut this world would be a lot better off.
Maybe Jesus came back as a Korean to absolve us of our sins again, but then realized we don't actually crucify people anymore, and at that point just went "screw it, I'll do it myself"
The cross must have been set up vertically since it said one of the main causes of death was suffocation. Personally, i don't see how you manage to do this to yourself when the cross is set up vertically, but it's hard to say if it's possible or not.
On May 19 2011 18:27 tomatriedes wrote: Korean Christians are more hardcore than other Christians.
Even American Christians have practice houses and their games draw large crowds and get televised, so I don't think that's the case. And these crucifixions happen here too (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/29/arrested-alleged-crucifixion-style-murder-utah-woman/). Plus, we have the very famous team KKK, who has always been known for being insanely hardcore. We also have the WBC, a close second in terms of popularity. Perhaps the SKT and KT of the American Christian fundamentalists.
On a serious note, these deaths trouble and sadden me deeply. Definitely not a fan of people murdering or committing suicide because of their religion.
On May 19 2011 17:18 Ksi wrote: It's always bothers me how the West has exported such a shameful thing as Christianity to Korea. It bothers me even more how quickly and easily so much of Korea has adopted this "foreign devil" religion and taken it to even greater extremes than the American South.
>.<
Let me guess, you don't have the report function yet do you
You guys don't understand why people would do this. First, there's a difference between going through the motions of emulating the Passion of Christ (the whole torture and crucifixion thing, that's what it's called) and actually dying.
I'm pretty sure the guy didn't plan on dying, and as there are no details on the specific case in the OP it's to all intents a messed up form of murder, except it's the way the Romans executed people in the first century, so "oooh religion is bullshit..." no
Now about volountary emulation of the Passion. The reason people would volounteer to submit themselves to the phenominal pain of these acts (beatings, crown of thornes, CRUCIFIXION), surely no as hardcore as what Jesus went through, is to know what it was like for him (Jesus).
Basic doctrine time: Jesus Christ was wholy perfect, he had never sinned. Ever. But he let the authorities crucify him, all the while know it would happen and letting them go ahead with it. This man who had never sinned bore unspeakable pain, and died an excruciating death, taking our sins upon him (though he himself was blameless) to forgive us., that by his death and ressurection we could have a second chance at heaven, because he had paid the price for our sins (death).
Now people love him and are grateful (heck yea, only through him can we be spared from eternal Hell), and as a spiritual experience they want to get an idea of the physical pain Christ went through. This is not some silly "oh I'm sinfull, must flog myself and then I'll be forgiven kekeke" medieval stuff you can see a parody of in Monty Python the Holy Grail. Because we're already forgive, all we need to do is ask.
This is a "holy shit did he really do that FOR ME? I'm certain to get an even deeper understanding of the suffering and torment he went through FOR ME if I get a taste of it". It's a faith-building and strengthening thing.
I think the largest problem of Protestantism in Korea is that it was largely imported from Americans and has taken that fundamentalist form that largely took root in America. It's really a pity.
On May 19 2011 21:32 Ghostcom wrote: Stop blaming religion for megalomaniac delusions... Everyone is tired of people preaching their religious beliefs in an attempt to force it on to others - guess what, the same goes for your atheistic beliefs, if both sides would shut this world would be a lot better off.
The perfect example of Christians wanting to have their cake and eat it as well. Preaching ridiculously superstitious messages without wanting to take any responsibility for the way it screws up people's minds.
On May 20 2011 04:56 krndandaman wrote: Are you sure you understand the Christian faith well? What you wrote does not describe the Christian faith I know accurately at all.
Haha, well if you want it put in more fictional magical superstitious terms here you go:
On May 20 2011 00:21 bITt.mAN wrote: Basic doctrine time: Jesus Christ was wholy perfect, he had never sinned. Ever. But he let the authorities crucify him, all the while know it would happen and letting them go ahead with it. This man who had never sinned bore unspeakable pain, and died an excruciating death, taking our sins upon him (though he himself was blameless) to forgive us., that by his death and ressurection we could have a second chance at heaven, because he had paid the price for our sins (death).
Now people love him and are grateful (heck yea, only through him can we be spared from eternal Hell), and as a spiritual experience they want to get an idea of the physical pain Christ went through. This is not some silly "oh I'm sinfull, must flog myself and then I'll be forgiven kekeke" medieval stuff you can see a parody of in Monty Python the Holy Grail. Because we're already forgive, all we need to do is ask.
This is a "holy shit did he really do that FOR ME? I'm certain to get an even deeper understanding of the suffering and torment he went through FOR ME if I get a taste of it". It's a faith-building and strengthening thing.
On May 19 2011 17:18 Ksi wrote: It's always bothers me how the West has exported such a shameful thing as Christianity to Korea. It bothers me even more how quickly and easily so much of Korea has adopted this "foreign devil" religion and taken it to even greater extremes than the American South.
>.<
Let me guess, you don't have the report function yet do you
You guys don't understand why people would do this. First, there's a difference between going through the motions of emulating the Passion of Christ (the whole torture and crucifixion thing, that's what it's called) and actually dying.
I'm pretty sure the guy didn't plan on dying, and as there are no details on the specific case in the OP it's to all intents a messed up form of murder, except it's the way the Romans executed people in the first century, so "oooh religion is bullshit..." no
Now about volountary emulation of the Passion. The reason people would volounteer to submit themselves to the phenominal pain of these acts (beatings, crown of thornes, CRUCIFIXION), surely no as hardcore as what Jesus went through, is to know what it was like for him (Jesus).
Basic doctrine time: Jesus Christ was wholy perfect, he had never sinned. Ever. But he let the authorities crucify him, all the while know it would happen and letting them go ahead with it. This man who had never sinned bore unspeakable pain, and died an excruciating death, taking our sins upon him (though he himself was blameless) to forgive us., that by his death and ressurection we could have a second chance at heaven, because he had paid the price for our sins (death).
Now people love him and are grateful (heck yea, only through him can we be spared from eternal Hell), and as a spiritual experience they want to get an idea of the physical pain Christ went through. This is not some silly "oh I'm sinfull, must flog myself and then I'll be forgiven kekeke" medieval stuff you can see a parody of in Monty Python the Holy Grail. Because we're already forgive, all we need to do is ask.
This is a "holy shit did he really do that FOR ME? I'm certain to get an even deeper understanding of the suffering and torment he went through FOR ME if I get a taste of it". It's a faith-building and strengthening thing.
But yeah, it is pretty damm hardcore!
Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Quick question, how do you drill the hole in your second hand ? I doubt a hand with a hole in it could have the strength or capacity to hold a drill, pull the trigger, and drill a second one.
no... i hate all the stereotypes made from such news. crucifying yourself is not loving jesus. that's the direct opposite. it's like spitting on his face.
How do you know God didn't ask him to do it? Maybe he had a revelation? Isn't it just a matter of faith?
Because committing suicide is wrong? God should be the only one to decide when one dies. Suicide = self-murder. The Christian faith is heavily reliant on the Bible and the Bible supports the view that suicide is wrong. So yeah, this guy was extremely deluded.
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Why? Why should you be able to tell someone they HAVE to live if they don't want to. I don't buy into the idea that I am God's hopeless slave in mind and spirit, unable to even end my own life without facing eternal ramifications, why should I be a slave just for simply existing?
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
Only something that is truly evil could motivate somebody to subject themself to something this terrible.
What I'm having trouble understanding is how he was up on a vertical cross and managed to nail his feet to it without falling down. I mean, how the fuck do you do that? Even if he stood on something while he nailed them in, how do u kick the stool out from under you with your feet nailed to a cross? How do you bend over to knock it down without falling forward? I guess he could have used a stick or something but like, fuck, how do you even hammer a nail with holes in your hands? Or did he drill his hands after? Could he have done all that while the cross was flat on the ground and then used a pully system to erect the cross? It doesn't seem to add up. Self crucifixion would be quite the feat.
I think it was a homicide set up to look like suicide if not assisted suicide. Maybe some anti-religious people doing a 'choke on your lies' type of thing. Either way, it's pretty fucked up.
All christians playing Starcraft are defying their gods and jesus indirectly because we starcraft players believe in Xel Naga and the second coming of the Dark Voice in Utter Darkness!
no... i hate all the stereotypes made from such news. crucifying yourself is not loving jesus. that's the direct opposite. it's like spitting on his face.
How do you know God didn't ask him to do it? Maybe he had a revelation? Isn't it just a matter of faith?
Because committing suicide is wrong? God should be the only one to decide when one dies. Suicide = self-murder. The Christian faith is heavily reliant on the Bible and the Bible supports the view that suicide is wrong. So yeah, this guy was extremely deluded.
But what if God asked him to do it? I mean personally. Would it still be wrong?
no... i hate all the stereotypes made from such news. crucifying yourself is not loving jesus. that's the direct opposite. it's like spitting on his face.
How do you know God didn't ask him to do it? Maybe he had a revelation? Isn't it just a matter of faith?
Because committing suicide is wrong? God should be the only one to decide when one dies. Suicide = self-murder. The Christian faith is heavily reliant on the Bible and the Bible supports the view that suicide is wrong. So yeah, this guy was extremely deluded.
But what if God asked him to do it? I mean personally. Would it still be wrong?
Classic case of abraham/issac dilemma. Have fun discussing that. Response are always predictable.
There is no-no-no-no way in hell - or on Earth for that matter - you could pull this off before passing out from the immense pain.
Either he was under heavy anesthesia or other type of drug, or he was somehow assisted, or simply murdered.
What speaks against anesthesia apart from the obvious reason that it'd show in the autopsy report is that it wouldn't allow for the muscular strength needed to drill a fucking hole through each one of your hands.
The amount of people in this thread bashing Christianity for this own guys decision is astounding. It would be like me bashing atheists, their ideals and relativistic ends for the actions of Pol Pot, Mao, or Stalin.
Its ridiculous. don't try to take miscontextualized cheap shots at the other side.
It doesn't make you an edgy intellectual, it makes you an uninformed troll.
On May 20 2011 10:24 whiteguycash wrote: The amount of people in this thread bashing Christianity for this own guys decision is astounding. It would be like me bashing atheists, their ideals and relativistic ends for the actions of Pol Pot, Mao, or Stalin.
Its ridiculous. don't try to take miscontextualized cheap shots at the other side.
It doesn't make you an edgy intellectual, it makes you an uninformed troll.
Atheism has no ideals, no relativistic ends, because it is simply the lack of a belief. There is no dogma, there is no established belief system, or governing laws. Blaming atheism for the actions of Pol pot would be like me bashing Trot nixon and other non hockey players for their ideals of not being hockey players, and the actions that happened due to that. Also miscontexualized isn't a word.
On May 20 2011 10:24 whiteguycash wrote: The amount of people in this thread bashing Christianity for this own guys decision is astounding. It would be like me bashing atheists, their ideals and relativistic ends for the actions of Pol Pot, Mao, or Stalin.
Its ridiculous. don't try to take miscontextualized cheap shots at the other side.
It doesn't make you an edgy intellectual, it makes you an uninformed troll.
Atheism has no ideals, no relativistic ends, because it is simply the lack of a belief. There is no dogma, there is no established belief system, or governing laws. Blaming atheism for the actions of Pol pot would be like me bashing Trot nixon and other non hockey players for their ideals of not being hockey players, and the actions that happened due to that.
Do you live that way? I highly doubt it. Everybody sees the world with a particular worldview and their behaviors reflect so. For example: naturalism.
On May 20 2011 10:24 whiteguycash wrote: The amount of people in this thread bashing Christianity for this own guys decision is astounding. It would be like me bashing atheists, their ideals and relativistic ends for the actions of Pol Pot, Mao, or Stalin.
Its ridiculous. don't try to take miscontextualized cheap shots at the other side.
It doesn't make you an edgy intellectual, it makes you an uninformed troll.
Atheism has no ideals, no relativistic ends, because it is simply the lack of a belief. There is no dogma, there is no established belief system, or governing laws. Blaming atheism for the actions of Pol pot would be like me bashing Trot nixon and other non hockey players for their ideals of not being hockey players, and the actions that happened due to that.
Do you live that way? I highly doubt it. Everybody sees the world with a particular worldview and their behaviors reflect so. For example: naturalism.
Live what way? what are are you talking about? All I said is that atheism is simply a lack of a belief not a belief system.
On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote: The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler.
A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins.
We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves.
On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote: The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler.
A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins.
We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves.
Nearly all Christians act contrary to the bible, in at least some way.
On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote: The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler.
A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins.
We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves.
Nearly all Christians act contrary to the bible, in at least some way.
Thanks for that gem. Of course its true, everyone knows its true. I think it was just a pointless post with no relevance to his point. Its like saying he committed murder, but everyone speeds. Pointless........
On May 19 2011 04:41 Demon Hunter wrote: The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind. The culprit is in the whole story in the spoiler.
A South Korean taxi driver found dead with his body nailed to a cross in an apparent re-creation of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ probably carried out the ordeal on his own as a suicide, police have said.
The 58-year-old man was wearing only underwear and a crown of thorns, his hands and feet nailed to the cross, a stab wound on his abdomen and nylon strings tied around his neck when he was found May 1 - one week after Easter - in an abandoned stone quarry in the country's south.
After days of investigation, police said they believe the man, surnamed Kim, committed suicide without any assistance.
Kim is believed to have nailed his feet to the cross, tied his neck to it and stabbed himself in the side. He is then believed to have drilled holes in his hands and slipped them over nails on the cross, Gyeongbuk Provincial Police Agency officers said, describing the death under condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the press.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Police said they found the man's notes planning the crucifixion. Before his apparent suicide, Kim closed his bank account and canceled his mobile phone contract in apparent preparation to end his life, police said.
An autopsy on his body showed the man died of bleeding from the stab wound and suffocation, police said. Officers reached by The Associated Press said they had no information on when exactly the man put himself on the cross and how long he might have been there before dying.
Popular representations of the death of Jesus Christ depict him crucified between the crosses of two thieves, wearing a crown of thorns, a white cloth over his loins, with a wound on his side from a Roman soldier's spear.
It's not hard to imagine that people can feel inspired into committing such acts given how much Churches love to glorify the death of Jesus Christ. This is evident even in the pop songs that they sing every Sunday - "Jesus you are the lover of my life, you died for me and your blood washes me clean" - etc. Regardless of whether or not this man is considered to be in the 'extreme' minority - most Christians (bar universalists) will not deny that this is the sort of suffering one will go through in the afterlife if they refuse to accept that Jesus was tortured for their sins.
We don't know the reason for his death so let's not assume or blame this on the Church or Jesus. Jesus himself never told his disciples to mimic what he went through because the sole reason he suffered and died was BECAUSE so we would not (according to Christianity). These people who voluntarily nail themselves to the cross in attempt to please God or gain favors or whatever acting contrary to the Bible and I doubt their faith. Christians are called to be a light onto the world not to hurt themselves.
Nearly all Christians act contrary to the bible, in at least some way.
Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time.
On May 20 2011 11:36 iamho wrote: Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time.
On May 20 2011 11:36 iamho wrote: Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time.
Why?
This guy is right - how are scientists and the world's other productive people going to solve real problems if they have to constantly babysit the slobbering, unwashed hordes who currently argue religion on the internet?
On May 20 2011 11:36 iamho wrote: Every thread even remotely related to religion automatically turns into a religion vs atheism debate thread. Its stupid, and the people who do that need to find something better to do with their time.
Why?
This guy is right - how are scientists and the world's other productive people going to solve real problems if they have to constantly babysit the slobbering, unwashed hordes who currently argue religion on the internet?
Think about it, man.
You act as if I've dedicated hours to this debate, when it takes me like 20 seconds to type a post, while I'm watching NASL, obviously a grievous misuse of my time.
On May 19 2011 07:19 Jibba wrote: If he wants to kill himself that's fine, but has anyone just considered that South Korean police are really fucking bad at their jobs?
It was just the police who made it up because they didn't want to do real work. There was some crime scene with dead bodies and a fan on. Case closed, unsolved, omfg fan death.
That fan death thread was one of the funniest things I've ever seen, thank you for that. I've never even heard of that! There's a south korean girl I know.. I need to ask her about this immediately
There's a ton of people in this world that will do crazy/stupid things in the name of religion. that is the exchange of "X" act, gives me "Y" status from God. That's entirely contrary to what the bible gives account that God is a god that lives and walks and communes with you, who gives you forgiveness not because of what you did but because his son already died for it.
Anyone who takes his own life, for whatever reason isn't accurately representing the will of the God of the bible, because he said he gives you life, and life more abundantly. He said that you're the head and not the tail, above and not beneath. He said that you are the righteousness of God in Christ. He said that you are a chosen generation, a holy nation, a peculiar people. That you are an ambassador of God on earth. He said that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost and it is not yours to do what you will. Why would you take your life when you have a heavenly status from Him? You can't be a light in the world for God if you're killing yourself, either slowly with sin, or immediately through suicide.
It's my opinion that religiosity is the main enemy of God in this world, not atheism. Many people will rather try to do something, no matter how crazy or detrimental to themselves (including suicide), instead of just repenting and changing your ways, or apologizing, or admitting your guilt. It's why we have homicide bombers, and the holocaust. People doing stuff, thinking that it will somehow buy them righteousness when it's impossible to do so by yourself.
You can't do enough or buy enough, or give enough to get forgiveness. It's a gift that was already paid for. You just have to receive it and then live your life inspired by it.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
The story the police came out with to explain the murder is almost as ridiculous as Demon Hunter.
<Demon Hunter> "Whoever did this to him had a sick and twisted mind." - I agree with this point though. Its a shame the forum rules prevent me from pointing out the actual perpetrator though. shame, it would have been a harsh and much needed GG for 99% of the posters
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH????? There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim. The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Very well said by FlowSthead: that indeed Christianity has has it's ups and downs and that we have done a lot of things contrary to Christ's will in the past, in the present and I'm sure in the future. Yet we persist in living out our life, to serve others in society with love, knowing that as we sin each day we can come to Christ and be forgiven. It is in this forgiveness we find the hope and the courage to continue to love others around us and show our gratitude to God for all that he has given us. All of the posts here saying that Christianity is irrational, ludicrous and incredulous is quite understandable. In the not too distant past when I didn't believe in Jesus, I had no ear for the gospel and laughed off the claims of my Christian friends with disdain. You may even be doing better than me by not having disdain / contempt for Christians (which I had previously). After all, Jesus did promise that the gospel will tear apart brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives. It is no surprise that on a TL forum we can have such passionate debates!!
I'd just like to point out that this guy is way more hardcore than Jesus. Jesus had like, a dozen people helping him die, this guy did it all on his own and it sounds like it was a lot more painful too.
Next time someone on the street tells me that Jesus suffered and died for my sins, I'm going to regale them with the tale of Mr. Kim who managed to suffer and die for my sins in an even more impressive fashion.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH????? There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim. The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
I don't think you really know what the meaning of the word irrational is. I can believe something and be rational about it if given proof I stop believing in it. Seeing as I have left my house for many years without having my having my head bitten off, there is most likely no invisible psycho bunny monster. Seeing as no one has ever died and come back, there is 0 proof one way or the other on what happens to you after you die. So a belief in hell is not irrational. Comparing it to an invisible psycho bunny monster is ridiculous.
I also want to point out your lack of knowledge by making it clear that it is not 100% decided that Hell exists in Christianity. Heaven exists for most Christians definitely, but Hell has at times, and perhaps still, been thought of as inconsistent with Christianity and God. So not all Christians necessary believe in it (just some food for thought).
What I was getting at with the Crusade is that the justification for going into a holy war was loving your enemy. That ideally love was the basis for many different sets of actions that Christians have, and that their God has primarily love as his big thing (love of your neighbor). So I find it a pretty logical conclusion to assume that the Westboro Baptist Church is a poor representation of Christianity what with their enormous lack of love for their neighbor.
Doing what you think is right may be meaningless, but there are certainly different shades in doing what you think is right. You attacked my justification of his actions, but my justification was based on the idea that he was acting alone and only upon himself. I think suicide is as equally irrational in any circumstance as religion, but that doesn't mean I don't see the justification. And as long as there are no ramifications upon others (the way there is in murder) then I have no problems with it.
The Bible also does not promote genocide, homophobia, and slavery. The bible certainly does not have a good picture of homosexuality, but to say that the Bible promotes the hate of gay people is an extremely ignorant view of the Bible. How many times do I have to stress this? What part of homophobia is consistent with the message of loving your neighbor? The Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the Bible, and the Bible is not strictly Christianity. It is Christianity's main text, but that doesn't mean that there are not other aspects involved in Christianity, and comparing the Westboro Baptist Church with say Catholocism or Orthodoxy is ludicrous.
On May 20 2011 21:40 flowSthead wrote: I don't think you really know what the meaning of the word irrational is. I can believe something and be rational about it if given proof I stop believing in it. Seeing as I have left my house for many years without having my having my head bitten off, there is most likely no invisible psycho bunny monster. Seeing as no one has ever died and come back, there is 0 proof one way or the other on what happens to you after you die. So a belief in hell is not irrational. Comparing it to an invisible psycho bunny monster is ridiculous.
Here are a few things you can do then to prove that faith is not irrational:
"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain: 'Move from here to there' - and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you" - Matthew 17:20.
"And these signs will accompany those who believe - in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Mark 16.
On May 20 2011 15:53 Hinanawi wrote: I'd just like to point out that this guy is way more hardcore than Jesus. Jesus had like, a dozen people helping him die, this guy did it all on his own and it sounds like it was a lot more painful too.
Next time someone on the street tells me that Jesus suffered and died for my sins, I'm going to regale them with the tale of Mr. Kim who managed to suffer and die for my sins in an even more impressive fashion.
There is a difference between a group of people celebrating Easter by simulating the Passion of Christ and his crucifixion, and a single guy somitting suicide by crucifying himself.
The former is ok, and is an even more intense and hardcore experience of the suffering you can watch in "The Passion of the Christ".
The latter is a messed up and deluded guy who is totally confused about what being a follower of Christ means. Loving and obeying Christ IS NOT FUCKING COPYING HIS DEATH. It is living and rejocing that his love for you is everlasting and has overcome all judgement and punishment for you.
Can this quit or do need to continue bashing my head on my keyboard
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH????? There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim. The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
I don't think you really know what the meaning of the word irrational is. I can believe something and be rational about it if given proof I stop believing in it. Seeing as I have left my house for many years without having my having my head bitten off, there is most likely no invisible psycho bunny monster. Seeing as no one has ever died and come back, there is 0 proof one way or the other on what happens to you after you die. So a belief in hell is not irrational. Comparing it to an invisible psycho bunny monster is ridiculous.
I also want to point out your lack of knowledge by making it clear that it is not 100% decided that Hell exists in Christianity. Heaven exists for most Christians definitely, but Hell has at times, and perhaps still, been thought of as inconsistent with Christianity and God. So not all Christians necessary believe in it (just some food for thought).
What I was getting at with the Crusade is that the justification for going into a holy war was loving your enemy. That ideally love was the basis for many different sets of actions that Christians have, and that their God has primarily love as his big thing (love of your neighbor). So I find it a pretty logical conclusion to assume that the Westboro Baptist Church is a poor representation of Christianity what with their enormous lack of love for their neighbor.
Doing what you think is right may be meaningless, but there are certainly different shades in doing what you think is right. You attacked my justification of his actions, but my justification was based on the idea that he was acting alone and only upon himself. I think suicide is as equally irrational in any circumstance as religion, but that doesn't mean I don't see the justification. And as long as there are no ramifications upon others (the way there is in murder) then I have no problems with it.
The Bible also does not promote genocide, homophobia, and slavery. The bible certainly does not have a good picture of homosexuality, but to say that the Bible promotes the hate of gay people is an extremely ignorant view of the Bible. How many times do I have to stress this? What part of homophobia is consistent with the message of loving your neighbor? The Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the Bible, and the Bible is not strictly Christianity. It is Christianity's main text, but that doesn't mean that there are not other aspects involved in Christianity, and comparing the Westboro Baptist Church with say Catholocism or Orthodoxy is ludicrous.
Yes, and seeing as I have walked around for years without encountering any type of God, or anything relating to hell, it would be equally silly to base my life on the fact that it might exist, by his creation. Also Ican't believe people still stay that the Bible doesn't promote slavery and genocide, are you kidding me? Seriously, tell me you are?
Leviticus 25:44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
Eph 6:5 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Fucking clear as day, irrefutable.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
As for the genocide... God's Death Toll Bible 2,391,421 This is the estimated death toll from the Bible.
You constantly say I'm lacking knowledge, I'm ignorant, but I've only pointed out facts. You're trolling me right bro? Obviously you've never so much as touched the Bible. So let's see now, Those 2 verses promote, oh yes slavery that's right. Then oh look though shalt not lie with mankind, it is an abomination, oh yes very tolerant of homosexuality. Calling them abominations. Surely no genocide, for the loving God of the desert right? Oh wait... 2.4 million death toll...
On May 20 2011 22:12 bITt.mAN wrote: Loving and obeying Christ IS NOT FUCKING COPYING HIS DEATH. It is living and rejocing that his love for you is everlasting and has overcome all judgement and punishment for you.
I'm going to create an arbitrary legal system that you possibly cannot live up to but subject you to it against your will, then I'm going to say I'm going to pass judgment and punish you for not living up to it unless someone takes the rap for you.
On Wednesday I wrote a study for my little youth group kids about the origins of evil according to Christianity and all that, and came across the following conundrum, which I have puzzled over before, and which I wonder if any of you can help me with:
My argument was that God allowed evil to enter the world as part of the risk He took in giving humanity free will. i.e. He loved mankind so much that He wanted to give us the chance to grow and mature and choose Him and the good life for ourselves, rather than being set on auto-pilot. All of which I'm sure you're all familiar with. I think it's a nice idea - the end goal being that God gets a family of children who have developed hearts and wisdom like His, and turned away from evil.
Obviously there are questions as to whether it was fair of Him to allow us to stuff things up so badly when a little more guidance might have spared us a lot of pain, and might have made His 'family' rather bigger. But I guess I'm basically willing to give Him the benefit of the doubt on that one, and assume He knew what He was doing, and has some kind of plan to tie up the loose ends. We'll see.
My real conundrum, though, is about the actual story in Genesis 2-3 - and please note I don't wish to open the debate on the literal/metaphorical nature of this story, which I think I pretty much know all your various opinions about. Rather, I'm going to assume that, either way, the story has an emblematic status which somehow applies to theology.
My question is, if God wanted us to develop maturity and discernment, doesn't it seem slightly backward that the tree they were forbidden to touch was said to offer that very thing - the knowledge of good and evil? God says 'if you eat from it you will surely die'. Which is true of course - when they figure out they can try things their own way they pretty much immediately start stuffing things up and killing each other and things. The serpent says of it "You will not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." And perhaps that's true too - there's no certainty they'll die; there's a slim chance they'll get it right themselves and not ruin everything. In any case the serpent is just trying to incite them to rebellion - don't listen to everything Mr Big says; don't submit to being His slave. Do what you want.
Some possible solutions to the puzzle:
1) My argument is wrong: God didn't want us to develop maturity etc.; He wanted us to get everything right, and for the world to stay perfect, and therefore when He said He didn't want them to eat the fruit, He meant it.
>>Question: so why put it there? To give them the choice? But if they're better off without the choice, isn't that kinda stupid?
2) God knew all along that they'd take the fruit, and put it there intentionally, so that they'd take it and learn some important lessons - painful though it would be for all concerned - which would ultimately be to their/humanity's betterment.
>>Question: so why does He forbid them to touch it?
>>Question: is it even plausible to say we're somehow better off in a post-fall world? Is that kind of sick and sadistic? Or is that like saying it's sadistic of a parent to take the training wheels off their kid's bike, knowing they'll fall off the first time, but will eventually acquire a new skill?
3) Perhaps it wasn't so much that He was forbidding them, but just that He had to warn them, in all fairness, that it would be a path of suffering, even though it would ultimately be the best.
>>But in that case, why not just say 'kids, you have the following two options - you decide'? Instead, He says 'you must not take option 2'.
4) Perhaps in their auto-pilot state they're not able to make decisions like that anyway, so He has to trick them, and maybe overstate the case a little just to make it more interesting.
>>Hm, oh dear, interesting questions arise as to the nature of God. Though potentially it could be seen as a parallel to a parent who tells his kid not to cross the road on her own, not because he never wants her to cross the road, but because she's not ready yet, and in this stage of her development what she needs is set rules that will keep her safe. So, uh, we're currently in the state of having disobeyed, strayed onto the road, been hit by a bus, and are now very slowly recovering, and very slowly figuring out how to conduct ourselves better in future - possibly mixed with a good deal of angst directed towards our dad who should have protected us better.
On May 20 2011 22:12 bITt.mAN wrote: Loving and obeying Christ IS NOT FUCKING COPYING HIS DEATH. It is living and rejocing that his love for you is everlasting and has overcome all judgement and punishment for you.
I'm going to create an arbitrary legal system that you possibly cannot live up to but subject you to it against your will, then I'm going to say I'm going to pass judgment and punish you for not living up to it unless someone takes the rap for you.
On Wednesday I wrote a study for my little youth group kids about the origins of evil according to Christianity and all that, and came across the following conundrum, which I have puzzled over before, and which I wonder if any of you can help me with:
My argument was that God allowed evil to enter the world as part of the risk He took in giving humanity free will. i.e. He loved mankind so much that He wanted to give us the chance to grow and mature and choose Him and the good life for ourselves, rather than being set on auto-pilot. All of which I'm sure you're all familiar with. I think it's a nice idea - the end goal being that God gets a family of children who have developed hearts and wisdom like His, and turned away from evil.
Obviously there are questions as to whether it was fair of Him to allow us to stuff things up so badly when a little more guidance might have spared us a lot of pain, and might have made His 'family' rather bigger. But I guess I'm basically willing to give Him the benefit of the doubt on that one, and assume He knew what He was doing, and has some kind of plan to tie up the loose ends. We'll see.
My real conundrum, though, is about the actual story in Genesis 2-3 - and please note I don't wish to open the debate on the literal/metaphorical nature of this story, which I think I pretty much know all your various opinions about. Rather, I'm going to assume that, either way, the story has an emblematic status which somehow applies to theology.
My question is, if God wanted us to develop maturity and discernment, doesn't it seem slightly backward that the tree they were forbidden to touch was said to offer that very thing - the knowledge of good and evil? God says 'if you eat from it you will surely die'. Which is true of course - when they figure out they can try things their own way they pretty much immediately start stuffing things up and killing each other and things. The serpent says of it "You will not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." And perhaps that's true too - there's no certainty they'll die; there's a slim chance they'll get it right themselves and not ruin everything. In any case the serpent is just trying to incite them to rebellion - don't listen to everything Mr Big says; don't submit to being His slave. Do what you want.
Some possible solutions to the puzzle:
1) My argument is wrong: God didn't want us to develop maturity etc.; He wanted us to get everything right, and for the world to stay perfect, and therefore when He said He didn't want them to eat the fruit, He meant it.
>>Question: so why put it there? To give them the choice? But if they're better off without the choice, isn't that kinda stupid?
2) God knew all along that they'd take the fruit, and put it there intentionally, so that they'd take it and learn some important lessons - painful though it would be for all concerned - which would ultimately be to their/humanity's betterment.
>>Question: so why does He forbid them to touch it?
>>Question: is it even plausible to say we're somehow better off in a post-fall world? Is that kind of sick and sadistic? Or is that like saying it's sadistic of a parent to take the training wheels off their kid's bike, knowing they'll fall off the first time, but will eventually acquire a new skill?
3) Perhaps it wasn't so much that He was forbidding them, but just that He had to warn them, in all fairness, that it would be a path of suffering, even though it would ultimately be the best.
>>But in that case, why not just say 'kids, you have the following two options - you decide'? Instead, He says 'you must not take option 2'.
4) Perhaps in their auto-pilot state they're not able to make decisions like that anyway, so He has to trick them, and maybe overstate the case a little just to make it more interesting.
>>Hm, oh dear, interesting questions arise as to the nature of God. Though potentially it could be seen as a parallel to a parent who tells his kid not to cross the road on her own, not because he never wants her to cross the road, but because she's not ready yet, and in this stage of her development what she needs is set rules that will keep her safe. So, uh, we're currently in the state of having disobeyed, strayed onto the road, been hit by a bus, and are now very slowly recovering, and very slowly figuring out how to conduct ourselves better in future - possibly mixed with a good deal of angst directed towards our dad who should have protected us better.
There are no logical solutions to the "puzzle" because it's completely nonsensical, just like anything else God did in the Bible.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH????? There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim. The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
I don't think you really know what the meaning of the word irrational is. I can believe something and be rational about it if given proof I stop believing in it. Seeing as I have left my house for many years without having my having my head bitten off, there is most likely no invisible psycho bunny monster. Seeing as no one has ever died and come back, there is 0 proof one way or the other on what happens to you after you die. So a belief in hell is not irrational. Comparing it to an invisible psycho bunny monster is ridiculous.
I also want to point out your lack of knowledge by making it clear that it is not 100% decided that Hell exists in Christianity. Heaven exists for most Christians definitely, but Hell has at times, and perhaps still, been thought of as inconsistent with Christianity and God. So not all Christians necessary believe in it (just some food for thought).
What I was getting at with the Crusade is that the justification for going into a holy war was loving your enemy. That ideally love was the basis for many different sets of actions that Christians have, and that their God has primarily love as his big thing (love of your neighbor). So I find it a pretty logical conclusion to assume that the Westboro Baptist Church is a poor representation of Christianity what with their enormous lack of love for their neighbor.
Doing what you think is right may be meaningless, but there are certainly different shades in doing what you think is right. You attacked my justification of his actions, but my justification was based on the idea that he was acting alone and only upon himself. I think suicide is as equally irrational in any circumstance as religion, but that doesn't mean I don't see the justification. And as long as there are no ramifications upon others (the way there is in murder) then I have no problems with it.
The Bible also does not promote genocide, homophobia, and slavery. The bible certainly does not have a good picture of homosexuality, but to say that the Bible promotes the hate of gay people is an extremely ignorant view of the Bible. How many times do I have to stress this? What part of homophobia is consistent with the message of loving your neighbor? The Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the Bible, and the Bible is not strictly Christianity. It is Christianity's main text, but that doesn't mean that there are not other aspects involved in Christianity, and comparing the Westboro Baptist Church with say Catholocism or Orthodoxy is ludicrous.
Yes, and seeing as I have walked around for years without encountering any type of God, or anything relating to hell, it would be equally silly to base my life on the fact that it might exist, by his creation. Also Ican't believe people still stay that the Bible doesn't promote slavery and genocide, are you kidding me? Seriously, tell me you are?
Leviticus 25:44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
Eph 6:5 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Fucking clear as day, irrefutable.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
As for the genocide... God's Death Toll Bible 2,391,421 This is the estimated death toll from the Bible.
You constantly say I'm lacking knowledge, I'm ignorant, but I've only pointed out facts. You're trolling me right bro? Obviously you've never so much as touched the Bible. So let's see now, Those 2 verses promote, oh yes slavery that's right. Then oh look though shalt not lie with mankind, it is an abomination, oh yes very tolerant of homosexuality. Calling them abominations. Surely no genocide, for the loving God of the desert right? Oh wait... 2.4 million death toll...
Your first paragraph is nonsensical. One does not "run into God" anymore than one "rocks into Mordor".
As for your quotes, the first one is from Leviticus, which is part of the Old Testament. There are plenty of things in Leviticus which are later contradicted in the New Testament. But let us take your full New Testament example from Ephasians: + Show Spoiler +
5(CT) Slaves,[c] obey your earthly masters[d] with fear and trembling,(CU) with a sincere heart,(CV) as you would Christ, 6not by the way of eye-service, as(CW) people-pleasers, but as servants[e] of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, 8(CX) knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord,(CY) whether he is a slave or free. 9Masters, do the same to them,(CZ) and stop your threatening, knowing that(DA) he who is both their Master[f] and yours is in heaven, and that(DB) there is no partiality with him.
I'm pretty sure the point of that quote was not to promote slavery, but to address slavery. Slavery was not a choice two thousand years ago. It's not like people were going around having debates about the morality or legality of slavery. It just was. Here Paul addresses the question of slavery by pointing out that God does not discriminate whether you are a slave or Master.
And you cannot point out the death toll in the Bible as an argument for promoting genocide. You could say the Bible describes genocide, but not promotes it. To promote it, it would have to say "Hey guy, go out and kill millions of people". Instead, the Bible says "thou shalt not kill". I think even you should be aware of that.
I also never said the Bible was cool with homosexuality. It isn't. But the Bible also doesn't promote homophobia, since hating gay people isn't very Christian. It really depends on your definition of homophobia. If you mean fear and disgust, then yeah it probably does. But if you mean hate and violence, then no, the Bible, or at least the New Testament, does not promote that type of homophobia.
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH????? There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim. The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
I don't think you really know what the meaning of the word irrational is. I can believe something and be rational about it if given proof I stop believing in it. Seeing as I have left my house for many years without having my having my head bitten off, there is most likely no invisible psycho bunny monster. Seeing as no one has ever died and come back, there is 0 proof one way or the other on what happens to you after you die. So a belief in hell is not irrational. Comparing it to an invisible psycho bunny monster is ridiculous.
I also want to point out your lack of knowledge by making it clear that it is not 100% decided that Hell exists in Christianity. Heaven exists for most Christians definitely, but Hell has at times, and perhaps still, been thought of as inconsistent with Christianity and God. So not all Christians necessary believe in it (just some food for thought).
What I was getting at with the Crusade is that the justification for going into a holy war was loving your enemy. That ideally love was the basis for many different sets of actions that Christians have, and that their God has primarily love as his big thing (love of your neighbor). So I find it a pretty logical conclusion to assume that the Westboro Baptist Church is a poor representation of Christianity what with their enormous lack of love for their neighbor.
Doing what you think is right may be meaningless, but there are certainly different shades in doing what you think is right. You attacked my justification of his actions, but my justification was based on the idea that he was acting alone and only upon himself. I think suicide is as equally irrational in any circumstance as religion, but that doesn't mean I don't see the justification. And as long as there are no ramifications upon others (the way there is in murder) then I have no problems with it.
The Bible also does not promote genocide, homophobia, and slavery. The bible certainly does not have a good picture of homosexuality, but to say that the Bible promotes the hate of gay people is an extremely ignorant view of the Bible. How many times do I have to stress this? What part of homophobia is consistent with the message of loving your neighbor? The Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the Bible, and the Bible is not strictly Christianity. It is Christianity's main text, but that doesn't mean that there are not other aspects involved in Christianity, and comparing the Westboro Baptist Church with say Catholocism or Orthodoxy is ludicrous.
Yes, and seeing as I have walked around for years without encountering any type of God, or anything relating to hell, it would be equally silly to base my life on the fact that it might exist, by his creation. Also Ican't believe people still stay that the Bible doesn't promote slavery and genocide, are you kidding me? Seriously, tell me you are?
Leviticus 25:44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
Eph 6:5 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Fucking clear as day, irrefutable.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
As for the genocide... God's Death Toll Bible 2,391,421 This is the estimated death toll from the Bible.
You constantly say I'm lacking knowledge, I'm ignorant, but I've only pointed out facts. You're trolling me right bro? Obviously you've never so much as touched the Bible. So let's see now, Those 2 verses promote, oh yes slavery that's right. Then oh look though shalt not lie with mankind, it is an abomination, oh yes very tolerant of homosexuality. Calling them abominations. Surely no genocide, for the loving God of the desert right? Oh wait... 2.4 million death toll...
Your first paragraph is nonsensical. One does not "run into God" anymore than one "rocks into Mordor".
As for your quotes, the first one is from Leviticus, which is part of the Old Testament. There are plenty of things in Leviticus which are later contradicted in the New Testament. But let us take your full New Testament example from Ephasians: + Show Spoiler +
5(CT) Slaves,[c] obey your earthly masters[d] with fear and trembling,(CU) with a sincere heart,(CV) as you would Christ, 6not by the way of eye-service, as(CW) people-pleasers, but as servants[e] of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, 8(CX) knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord,(CY) whether he is a slave or free. 9Masters, do the same to them,(CZ) and stop your threatening, knowing that(DA) he who is both their Master[f] and yours is in heaven, and that(DB) there is no partiality with him.
I'm pretty sure the point of that quote was not to promote slavery, but to address slavery. Slavery was not a choice two thousand years ago. It's not like people were going around having debates about the morality or legality of slavery. It just was. Here Paul addresses the question of slavery by pointing out that God does not discriminate whether you are a slave or Master.
And you cannot point out the death toll in the Bible as an argument for promoting genocide. You could say the Bible describes genocide, but not promotes it. To promote it, it would have to say "Hey guy, go out and kill millions of people". Instead, the Bible says "thou shalt not kill". I think even you should be aware of that.
I also never said the Bible was cool with homosexuality. It isn't. But the Bible also doesn't promote homophobia, since hating gay people isn't very Christian. It really depends on your definition of homophobia. If you mean fear and disgust, then yeah it probably does. But if you mean hate and violence, then no, the Bible, or at least the New Testament, does not promote that type of homophobia.
I didn't say run into God, I mean to say encounter anything that was an effect from him or any reason to believe he exists. Also, you don't need to be violent towards them to be homophobic, being disgusted by them is the very definition of homophobia since its an irrational disgust. Still, it condones slavery, it freaking says "you may buy a slave" I don't care if it was commonplace at the time FREAKING GOD should know better. He said that it's ok, there's nothing more to it, the Bible promotes slavery and its A FACT. Seriously how can you try to defend this?
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Hmmm. If it was a suicide, then thats a little misplaced isn't it? Did he gloss over the part where Jesus was sentenced to his crucifixion, not admitted willingly? I understand that some hard-core Christians want to empathize with Jesus' suffering as much as possible, but shouldn't there be a line, even among these fanatics, between suffering and suicide? I think the whole thing is out of touch. Christianity tells us to be grateful for Jesus' suffering, that by one heroic act he payed for our sins, not that we should inflict that same damage on ourselves.
If it's a murder (which it really sounds like it is) then I'm sort of perplexed/interested. Sounds almost like fiction (se7en). The mix of my recent obsession with crime solving (l.a. noire) and my lifelong interest with religion gets me sort of excited by this thing.
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Did you seriously just say that religion is as important to society as science? Really? Yeah sure, without science we wouldn't even have the internet for you to say something like that, but at least we would have Jesus.
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Did you seriously just say that religion is as important to society as religion? Really? Yeah sure, without science we wouldn't even have the internet for you to say something like that, but at least we would have Jesus.
Why are you so hateful? Science is no more innocent than religion in having run amok countless times and causing terrible pain. Perhaps you worship some other god, like logic or the internet, but make no mistake that we all worship some god. You worship man, you worship yourself; it doesn't matter really. Humanity has needed something to believe in since the dawn of time, and religion is crucial to our emotional and spiritual evolution. You're focusing only on the bad things religion has brought forward: holy wars, despot kings and fanatical terror. Science has done all these terrible things: human testing, atom bombs and other weapons of war. You think hope, happiness, meaning and a code of ethics for millions billions of people is worthless? It isn't. Just like technology is far from worthless.
I don't practice religion, but I find your binary view of it a little disgusting.
You people are acting slightly ignorant. Both "Factions" i should call it as you people are so seperated. They have both committed atrocities from the Crusades and science with the development of the Manhattan Project and numerous trials and advancements that result in the death of millions whether through military technology or even medicine that turns out to be terrible. Both science and Religion go hand and hand. You know the Vatican approves of the idea of the Big Bang Theory, Evolution, and they even have their own telescope. They approve of extraterrestrial life. They basically approve of modern science and the theories that go along with it (ie: Big Bang Theory, Evolution). There's no reason you can't believe in both. And the idea that you don't believe in the Church which I agree with, as they were (possibly are) very corrupt and have committed atrocities. That shouldn't mean you have to lose all your faith all together. I'm not a christian or religious by any standards but that dosen't mean I have to agree with science on everything. The fact is that Man searches for a purpose in life and if they don't find it through religion, they have to continue to find it through atheism. You don't have to believe in a religion, I don't, but naturally, all people search for a purpose in life, and due to the fact that religion is the main purpose for alot of people, no body really knows any other purpose. I'm fine without religion, however. The point is science and religion coincide with eachother and they agree with eachother on certain things. A lot of scientists aren't atheist and a lot of religious people believe in scientific ideas including the Vatican, as previously stated.
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Did you seriously just say that religion is as important to society as religion? Really? Yeah sure, without science we wouldn't even have the internet for you to say something like that, but at least we would have Jesus.
Why are you so hateful? Science is no more innocent than religion in having run amok countless times and causing terrible pain. Perhaps you worship some other god, like logic or the internet, but make no mistake that we all worship some god. You worship man, you worship yourself; it doesn't matter really. Humanity has needed something to believe in since the dawn of time, and religion is crucial to our emotional and spiritual evolution. You're focusing only on the bad things religion has brought forward: holy wars, despot kings and fanatical terror. You think hope, happiness, meaning and a code of ethics for millions of people is worthless?
No humans don't need to "believe" in something, and we don't need religion for any type of evolution. If people gain hope from religion good for them, but for one you don't need religion to be fulfilled. Frankly it was an absurd notion that religion brought progress like science did, if anything religion is anti progress. How am I hateful? I didn't even insult you or anything.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Ah, is that so. Apparently his faith wasn't even strong enough to let him endure the mild annoyance life can be.
He wasn't Savior and his cross wasn't The Ankh... he wasn't going to revive or his faith in Christianity wasn't strong enough...he didn't even have the donkey either...
On May 20 2011 07:53 Olinim wrote: Who cares what completely insane rationalization they used within Christianity to justify this? And let me assure you that rationalization is indeed completely insane. How does it make sense for a being that is basically God to die on a cross to absolve the sins of humans...how can someone else pay the price of our sins, that is in complete opposition of any sense of justice that has been adopted in the modern world.
Ahh, you just asked him an open question allowing him the opportunity to give you more of his insane Christian rationalisations on the next question you have asked... Let me assure you, Christians have insanely retarded rationalisations in anticipation for any logical questions.
You are such a troll, it actually physically ails me.
Let's get some things straight right now. I am an atheist. I don't and have never believed in organized religion. I don't particularly care about religious people, and I don't particularly care about this story. But the amount of lack of knowledge of religion, not just in this thread, about among the internet in general is just astounding.
I mean according to DemonHunter, Christians are stupid and are unable to answer logical questions. Never mind all of the famous logicians in history that happened to be Christian, like for example Hegel, Francis Bacon, or mathematicians like Leibniz. No, according to the Christian-haters, religion has only brought evil into the world, and that you could certainly not just blame individuals for their stupid actions and stupid ideas.
I hate this line of thought because it is completely illogical, and fallacious. The Westboro Baptist Church is not Christianity, and is not a good representation for the average Christian. For that matter, neither is Hegel or Francis Bacon. With Christianity being the largest religion in the world (according to CIA World Factbook), there is nothing that will describe all Christians, or their thoughts or feelings or relative rationality.
This guy in the original article had certain beliefs and acted upon them. If we assume everything in the article to be true, then he probably acted upon those beliefs under the impression that it would provide him with a better position in the afterlife. The course of his actions led him to self-mutilation which led to his death. While I completely disagree with his beliefs, I actually admire his will and at least self consistency (even if I also think he has probably misread the Bible, but it is a difficult book to read so alternate interpretations are very common).
To most of us, this seems like a very crazy thing to do. For him, his soul was on the line. I find it relatively comparable to Mohamed Bouazizi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi) who lit himself on fire after dousing himself in gasoline. His actions started revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and the civil war in Libya. For Mohamed, he was worried about his survival in this life, his economic survival. For the man in the article, he was worried about the state of his immortal soul.
Either way, both of them acted in the manner they thought best. I happen to disagree with their thought process, but hating on a religion is an extremely poor way to show your disagreement. It just shows your ignorance, of both history and alternate lifestyles to your own. I would ask you to imagine what it would be like to be worried over an immortal soul, but you seem clearly incapable of empathizing with the religious. It is pretty much the exact same situation any time a fundamentalist is incapable of empathizing with someone of a different religion.
Obviously not every Christian is stupid, though I believe their train of though to come to that conclusion was poor. Yes, there are countless numbers of different types of Christian which is why people mostly talk about the ones that simply follow the Bible literally the most basic form of it, and you know what, the Westboro Baptist Church does.
Also, your arguments in this post are ridiculous, honestly. You say there is nothing in the world that will describe all Christians, does this make them immune to criticism? No. Secondly you say that he acted upon what his beliefs, what he thought was right...so what? EVERYONE DOES THAT. Oh yeah...Hitler may have murdered millions of people, but in his eyes he was purifying Germany. Doesn't excuse the poor logic this man used, and his blatant mental health issues. I can empathize with them, they are frightened they will go to hell, but that fear is completely irrational.
No, that fear is not completely irrational. Do you have knowledge of what happens to you after you die? Because I sure don't. I would really love to hear about the time you spent dead in the afterlife or in utter oblivion.
I also never said that Christianity is not immune to criticism. I was responding to the dirty way in which criticism is often levied at Christianity from people with a poor understanding of history. Saying the Westboro Baptist Church follows the most basic form of the Bible is a very poor understanding of both Christianity, and its history. From Christianity's beginning issues were not clearly defined and taken at face value within just the Bible. To say that is to completely miss the point.
Just as an example, most people when they mention how Christians went on the Crusades to kill Muslims often leave out a pretty important self-justification the Christians had. Namely, that war is possible if a Christian loved their enemy. Do I agree with the Crusades and buy into their justification? No. But I also don't ignore it. The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most hateful organizations in all of Christian history. It is decidedly on the fringe of Christianity and a very poor representation of what it has meant to be a Christian historically and in the majority.
I should also point out that Hitler killing millions of people and acting upon his beliefs is decidedly different than this man killing himself. In one situation, a man acts upon MILLIONS of other people, and acts as judge and jury, or "casts the first stone" in Bible-speak. In the other situation, a man acts only upon himself, not causing harm to anyone else. So when I say that I don't mind that this Korean man acted upon his beliefs, I mean I really don't care in the slightest because he did what was best for him without harming anyone else in the process.
Thank you for comparing that to Hitler though, showing another poor understanding of Christianity. Clearly self-mutilation is exactly like genocide, and the desire for rapture and saving of an immortal soul is equally as stupid as the hate of entire races of people.
Yes the fear is completely irrational. It's just like not going outside because you are afraid that there is a psycho bunny monster that will bite your head off, CAN YOU PROVE THAT THERE IS NO PSYCHO INVISIBLE BUNNY MONSTER THAT WILL BITE MY HEAD OFF HUH HUH????? There is no sufficient evidence to believe that there is any type of hell, to say there is, is absurd.
And what are you saying with the Crusade? You said you don't agree with the justification but you don't ignore it? If the justification wasn't right then that means the Christians were in the wrong...so I really don't see what you're getting at.
And I didn't compare his actions to Hitler, I compared your justification of his actions, I was simply showing that doing what you think is right is meaningless because that's what everyone does. Sorry if it sounded like I thought he was as bad as Hitler was just using it as an example for your justification, not comparing him with the victim. The foundation of Christianity is the Bible, the Bible promotes genocide, homophobia, and slavery this is a fact, so how is the Westboro Baptist Church a poor representation of Christianity, it doesn't represent the majority, but it represents the Bible.
I don't think you really know what the meaning of the word irrational is. I can believe something and be rational about it if given proof I stop believing in it. Seeing as I have left my house for many years without having my having my head bitten off, there is most likely no invisible psycho bunny monster. Seeing as no one has ever died and come back, there is 0 proof one way or the other on what happens to you after you die. So a belief in hell is not irrational. Comparing it to an invisible psycho bunny monster is ridiculous.
I also want to point out your lack of knowledge by making it clear that it is not 100% decided that Hell exists in Christianity. Heaven exists for most Christians definitely, but Hell has at times, and perhaps still, been thought of as inconsistent with Christianity and God. So not all Christians necessary believe in it (just some food for thought).
What I was getting at with the Crusade is that the justification for going into a holy war was loving your enemy. That ideally love was the basis for many different sets of actions that Christians have, and that their God has primarily love as his big thing (love of your neighbor). So I find it a pretty logical conclusion to assume that the Westboro Baptist Church is a poor representation of Christianity what with their enormous lack of love for their neighbor.
Doing what you think is right may be meaningless, but there are certainly different shades in doing what you think is right. You attacked my justification of his actions, but my justification was based on the idea that he was acting alone and only upon himself. I think suicide is as equally irrational in any circumstance as religion, but that doesn't mean I don't see the justification. And as long as there are no ramifications upon others (the way there is in murder) then I have no problems with it.
The Bible also does not promote genocide, homophobia, and slavery. The bible certainly does not have a good picture of homosexuality, but to say that the Bible promotes the hate of gay people is an extremely ignorant view of the Bible. How many times do I have to stress this? What part of homophobia is consistent with the message of loving your neighbor? The Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the Bible, and the Bible is not strictly Christianity. It is Christianity's main text, but that doesn't mean that there are not other aspects involved in Christianity, and comparing the Westboro Baptist Church with say Catholocism or Orthodoxy is ludicrous.
Yes, and seeing as I have walked around for years without encountering any type of God, or anything relating to hell, it would be equally silly to base my life on the fact that it might exist, by his creation. Also Ican't believe people still stay that the Bible doesn't promote slavery and genocide, are you kidding me? Seriously, tell me you are?
Leviticus 25:44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
Eph 6:5 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Fucking clear as day, irrefutable.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
As for the genocide... God's Death Toll Bible 2,391,421 This is the estimated death toll from the Bible.
You constantly say I'm lacking knowledge, I'm ignorant, but I've only pointed out facts. You're trolling me right bro? Obviously you've never so much as touched the Bible. So let's see now, Those 2 verses promote, oh yes slavery that's right. Then oh look though shalt not lie with mankind, it is an abomination, oh yes very tolerant of homosexuality. Calling them abominations. Surely no genocide, for the loving God of the desert right? Oh wait... 2.4 million death toll...
Your first paragraph is nonsensical. One does not "run into God" anymore than one "rocks into Mordor".
As for your quotes, the first one is from Leviticus, which is part of the Old Testament. There are plenty of things in Leviticus which are later contradicted in the New Testament. But let us take your full New Testament example from Ephasians: + Show Spoiler +
5(CT) Slaves,[c] obey your earthly masters[d] with fear and trembling,(CU) with a sincere heart,(CV) as you would Christ, 6not by the way of eye-service, as(CW) people-pleasers, but as servants[e] of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, 8(CX) knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord,(CY) whether he is a slave or free. 9Masters, do the same to them,(CZ) and stop your threatening, knowing that(DA) he who is both their Master[f] and yours is in heaven, and that(DB) there is no partiality with him.
I'm pretty sure the point of that quote was not to promote slavery, but to address slavery. Slavery was not a choice two thousand years ago. It's not like people were going around having debates about the morality or legality of slavery. It just was. Here Paul addresses the question of slavery by pointing out that God does not discriminate whether you are a slave or Master.
And you cannot point out the death toll in the Bible as an argument for promoting genocide. You could say the Bible describes genocide, but not promotes it. To promote it, it would have to say "Hey guy, go out and kill millions of people". Instead, the Bible says "thou shalt not kill". I think even you should be aware of that.
I also never said the Bible was cool with homosexuality. It isn't. But the Bible also doesn't promote homophobia, since hating gay people isn't very Christian. It really depends on your definition of homophobia. If you mean fear and disgust, then yeah it probably does. But if you mean hate and violence, then no, the Bible, or at least the New Testament, does not promote that type of homophobia.
I didn't say run into God, I mean to say encounter anything that was an effect from him or any reason to believe he exists. Also, you don't need to be violent towards them to be homophobic, being disgusted by them is the very definition of homophobia since its an irrational disgust. Still, it condones slavery, it freaking says "you may buy a slave" I don't care if it was commonplace at the time FREAKING GOD should know better. He said that it's ok, there's nothing more to it, the Bible promotes slavery and its A FACT. Seriously how can you try to defend this?
There actually isn't one specified definition of homophobia, which was why I specified, but at this point the homophobia is a minor point.
I am defending it because you are oversimplifying. Christianity is not black and white, and the idea that Christianity promotes slavery is also ridiculous. Christianity has changed over time, for example, and what it means to be a Christian today is not the same thing as what it mean to be a Christian in 650 A.D.
Also, I think it should be pointed out that slavery is a social institution. That is why I mentioned how the master and the slave are equal in the eyes of God. Jesus Christ famously said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". In other words, Christianity should not involve itself with politics, but with matters of the soul. One could argue that for Christians slavery is relatively unimportant since the soul will be saved or damned regardless of your place on the socioeconomic ladder.
Christianity has plenty of problems, as most religions do, and I am always happy to discuss those. As an atheist, there are a number of issues I have with religions in general that turn me off from them, not the least of which is the lack of reason to choose between competing religions. But the arguments that are usually thrown against Christianity, and the arguments you are using, are not strong arguments. They are gut reactions from people that see Fox News and the Westboro Baptist Church as the most prevalent examples of Christians. That just isn't case.
I dislike this because it creates a straw man that is easy to take down. I see other atheists do this all the time, and it bothers me because they aren't promoting anything other than an irrational hate for the religious. For one thing, being religious does not necessitate a lack of logic, and it is not diametrically opposed to science either (although plenty of churches have been so historically). I don't particularly like fundamentalists either, but I find it easy to avoid fundamentalists and the crazy religious probably because I just don't hang around religious people. Otherwise, I would probably be getting all up in their faces over their inconsistencies. As I interact more with atheists, I do this to atheists. I don't do well with irrationality or inconsistency, whether or not someone agrees with me.
I also don't see this is a difficult task. Separating the actions of flawed individuals from the greater philosophy is a fairly simple task. Understanding that most religions are complicated and rarely have black and white answers, despite what some of their believers may think, is also not difficult. My favorite Christian would probably be Kierkegaard because he recognized that even after the leap of faith is made, a believer will always have doubt if he is a true believer. Kierkegaard thought that to lack doubt in one's faith was not to be a believer, but to be credulous. Put another way, Kierkegaard was against fundamentalism and brainwashing, and I think that is pretty cool.
So my question to you is: why can't you just let it go? How can this one guy be a representation for over 30% of the human population?
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Did you seriously just say that religion is as important to society as science? Really? Yeah sure, without science we wouldn't even have the internet for you to say something like that, but at least we would have Jesus.
Religion =/= Jesus, and yes I said religion was as important to society as science. Religion is the earliest examples of ethics we have. And without ethics you wouldn't have human rights like say freedom of speech... So yeah, REALLY!
Before your next attempt at a witty remark, think it through please...
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Did you seriously just say that religion is as important to society as religion? Really? Yeah sure, without science we wouldn't even have the internet for you to say something like that, but at least we would have Jesus.
Why are you so hateful? Science is no more innocent than religion in having run amok countless times and causing terrible pain. Perhaps you worship some other god, like logic or the internet, but make no mistake that we all worship some god. You worship man, you worship yourself; it doesn't matter really. Humanity has needed something to believe in since the dawn of time, and religion is crucial to our emotional and spiritual evolution. You're focusing only on the bad things religion has brought forward: holy wars, despot kings and fanatical terror. You think hope, happiness, meaning and a code of ethics for millions of people is worthless?
No humans don't need to "believe" in something, and we don't need religion for any type of evolution. If people gain hope from religion good for them, but for one you don't need religion to be fulfilled. Frankly it was an absurd notion that religion brought progress like science did, if anything religion is anti progress. How am I hateful? I didn't even insult you or anything.
I think he was referring to your attempt at seizing intellectual highground by riddiculing me with your "Really?"...
And frankly, no it wasn't. To deny that religion has played a huge role in forming of modern values, i.e. human rights, is what is absurd.
The man was a devout Christian, and police speculated that his "deep religious faith" may have helped him endure "immense pain."
Ah, is that so. Apparently his faith wasn't even strong enough to let him endure the mild annoyance life can be.
Or perhaps his ritual wasn't suicide due to mild annoyance; maybe it was either annoyance or not suicide to escape, but (in his beliefs) to transcend?
Those who commit suicide don't ascend to heaven (nor do they transcend anything). + Show Spoiler +
Neither does anyone else, but that's beside the point.
1) Corinthians 10:31 reveal that the Holy Spirit dwells in those who are saved. It is our responsibility to treat Him with respect, and suicide is not appropriate. 2) Genesis 1:26,27 (and similar verses) reveal that we are made in the image of God. This is one of the reasons we are not allowed to murder (see Genesis 9:6,7), so again suicide would be a bad thing. 3) The Bible teaches us to trust, depend on, and believe in God throughout its length. (Romans 8:28 is one example.) To take your own life would show no faith in God. Notice that although the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ were persecuted, tortured, and put to death; they did not commit suicide for an “easy out.” They “fought the good fight” to the end (see 2 Timothy 4:6-8). 4) Be aware of how suicide affects other people’s opinion of the person who died. It is common for people to wonder if someone who commits suicide went to heaven. That is a poor testimony for a “Christian warrior.”
On May 19 2011 04:56 MangoTango wrote: Religion: promoting voluntary insanity since, forever, really.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
User was warned for this post
Well said.
"Science" isn't any more innocent than religion in the atrocities that has taken place during the world history. Heck, one of the most well-known trials in the world is the Nuremberg trials - which was regarding doctors who to make scientific progress tortured and killed performed trials on humans.
This whole attempt at seizing a superior position is really fucking tiring - both science and religion plays an important role in society; when morons misuse either, condemn the morons, not the subject being misused...
Did you seriously just say that religion is as important to society as religion? Really? Yeah sure, without science we wouldn't even have the internet for you to say something like that, but at least we would have Jesus.
Why are you so hateful? Science is no more innocent than religion in having run amok countless times and causing terrible pain. Perhaps you worship some other god, like logic or the internet, but make no mistake that we all worship some god. You worship man, you worship yourself; it doesn't matter really. Humanity has needed something to believe in since the dawn of time, and religion is crucial to our emotional and spiritual evolution. You're focusing only on the bad things religion has brought forward: holy wars, despot kings and fanatical terror. You think hope, happiness, meaning and a code of ethics for millions of people is worthless?
No humans don't need to "believe" in something, and we don't need religion for any type of evolution. If people gain hope from religion good for them, but for one you don't need religion to be fulfilled. Frankly it was an absurd notion that religion brought progress like science did, if anything religion is anti progress. How am I hateful? I didn't even insult you or anything.
Because you don't need religion doesn't mean that billions of others share your feelings. In fact, in not needing religion you are in a minority on this planet. You're entire argument is based upon examples from your own life: technology, ipod, vibrating dildo= good, september 11th, priest pedophiles, faith over action = bad. These are incredibly isolated instances (on BOTH sides) of the good or bad these forces have had in your life. You have no world view. BILLIONS of people enjoy and love their faith, see it as an integral part of their life. People see their faith as inspiration, as joy, as happiness. These people life better lives because of their faith. Ultimately, isn't the goal of technology to enrich peoples lives? Religion does the exact same thing.
Ok, well this has devolved into a typical religion thread which means I'm going to close it. My religious views are irrelevant in the matter, but I'd just like to point out to the people promenading logic and science in this debate that most of you haven't actually applied logic or science to the police report, which maintains that a single man was capable of nailing his feet to a cross, tying his neck back, stabbing himself and then drilling holes in his hands while remaining lucid enough to place said hands over spikes.
Officials re-enacted some elements of the crucifixion and concluded that an adult male could perform the act on his own, the agency said.
Am I the only one who sees the absurdity in this? Use your fucking investigative minds.
EPT
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