EPT[Poll] Cheese and All-Ins per race - Page 2
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legaton
France1763 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote: just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO. | ||
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AdelSC123
France362 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:04 Skyze wrote: dont expect these results to be unbiased, random player results. they reflect which race has the most fans more than anything. Pretty much this. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:16 branflakes14 wrote: Which race has the best economic cheese? You mean which race can blindly expand and have poor defense in the hope that their opponent doesn't react? I was trying to use this as a catch all. First I was thinking of what Tastosis said about Fruitdealer when he won the GSL, he did an economic cheese because he sort of looked like he was going all-in, then switched to mass drone pumping and came back in that one game against Rainbow(?). That made me think about Mules on gold and chronoing probes when you have a good defense. So basically anything that is risky but gives an unusual amount of economic advantage. Maybe expanding blind is a good example, yeah. Maybe faking a rush and then expanding in such a way that the enemy can't respond... like fake 3 barracks but really go 1 barracks expand. Or fake a 4 gate and take a gold???? | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:28 Huragius wrote: Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO. Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into. if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also. | ||
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Dubz
United States242 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45221 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
I remember a recent game where the Zerg got to about 60 drones, then stopped producing drones. He only produced units and went into aggression mode. People were like "he's all-in"... Can't remember which exact game it was but come on... I also remember a game where Protoss did a DT expand, and people called it "cheese"... The examples are aplenty. There comes a time when one must stop blindly categorizing strats. | ||
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:31 AlBundy wrote: I voted "stop overusing "cheese" and "all-in" ". I remember a recent game where the Zerg got to about 60 drones, then stopped producing drones. He only produced units and went into aggression mode. People were like "he's all-in"... Can't remember which exact game it was but come on... I also remember a game where Protoss did a DT expand, and people called it "cheese"... The examples are aplenty. There comes a time when one must stop blindly categorizing strats. Im quite sure that game is july vs nada in metalopolis | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45221 Posts
Poll: What is your favorite type of cheese? All of the above (4) Zerg tears (3) Hallucinated Void Rays LOL (3) Other (3) Swiss (the one with holes) (2) U.S.A.! (American) (1) Cheddah (1) No More 4gate! (1) Fuck Banshees (1) 19 total votes Your vote: What is your favorite type of cheese? (Vote): U.S.A.! (American) | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
14+ is absurd maybe 4-5 for terran (1 base mass rax, proxy rax, bunker rush, proxy/2port banshee) more depending on how you count variations of these. EDIT: how could i forget marine+scv 'semi all-ins'  for z... early pool, roach rush, baneling bust.. 3, again more with variations on how many roaches or when the banes come.. perhaps slow drop but i've never seen anyone try that. protoss, proxy voids, proxy gates, 4 gate, cannon rush, DT rush (maybe, although less cheesy with the archon buff) so 4-5 again imo z has the worst cheeses because of larvae making any recovery so difficult, and they are very scoutable as mostly require you to not expand which will always raise suspicions, | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:30 Skyze wrote: Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into. if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also. True that. Everything that is just not defending is an all-in because I think Idra has put into the minds of many players if you attack you are all in because there is a chance that you don't do enough damage. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:38 xbankx wrote: True that. Everything that is just not defending is an all-in because I think Idra has put into the minds of many players if you attack you are all in because there is a chance that you don't do enough damage. which is intriguing, cause every time idra makes a unit he DOESN'T MAKE A DRONE so is sacrificing econ for aggression... if he doesn't do damage with that unit he's in trouble! what a cheeser. | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote: can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+... 1) Marine SCV all in 2) cloaked banshee rush 3) marine/ tank push into bunker contain 4) 4 rax stim timing 5) ghost rush and all of its variants 6) marine thor SCV all in 7) marine raven banshee push 8) fake 1 rax expand into 7 rax all in 9) blue flame hellion rush (not quite all in, but if it doesn't do a bunch of damage you're pretty behind) 10) 2 port banshee 11) tank marine banshee pressure/contain 12) proxy thor rush 13) maka rax 14) <generic 1 base play that transitions into losing the game then whining about imbalance> | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
+1 Korean 4 gate is when you go all zealots an pull workers off gas right? PvP only I think. +3 regular fast 4 gate vs all races. +2 fake expand into 4 gate, sentry heavy. Saw it against Z and T in GSL. +2 dark templar rush. I think it's garbage PvP, might work on ladder PvZ, and see it GSL PvT. Personally I think it's very risky though. +2 Air, usually voidrays, + gateway unit rush against Z and T off one-base. +1 Double stargate voidrays... saw someone try it in old GSL. Maybe someone against Idra. Is it legit? +2 Blink stalkers from one base. Almost forgot this but saw Naniwa do it vs Thorzaine. PvT. I guess you could consider it an all-in for PvP, but it seems more like a transition build to me. So I get 12 or 13 that I can think of that seem different and usable. I don't think there are any obvious all-ins with heavy phoenixes, immortals, colossus, or other tech that I can think of. Maybe somone else would consider 3 gate robo immortal a usable 1 base strat, but it doesn't seem like it can kill very well. If we get some decent links that aren't obvious, I'll put them in the OP. Some obvious ones to follow. Links: Korean 4 Warpgate http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Korean_4_Warpgate_All_In_(vs._Protoss) | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:43 Jonas  wrote:1) Marine SCV all in 2) cloaked banshee rush 3) marine/ tank push into bunker contain 4) 4 rax stim timing 5) ghost rush and all of its variants 6) marine thor SCV all in 7) marine raven banshee push 8) fake 1 rax expand into 7 rax all in 9) blue flame hellion rush (not quite all in, but if it doesn't do a bunch of damage you're pretty behind) 10) 2 port banshee 11) tank marine banshee pressure/contain 12) proxy thor rush 13) maka rax 14) <generic 1 base play that transitions into losing the game then whining about imbalance> 1. yes 2. doubt it 3. ???? (profit) 4.maybe 5.never seen this, don't know 6.yes, but you can't list every possible point in the game as a point where terran can pull all workers and all-in as a seperate cheese. 7.sounds pretty solid to me. 8.yes 9.oh shit he built hellions gg. 10. yeah. 11.isn't that what terran wants to do every game? marine tank is what terrans go vs z.. 12.essentially the same as 6 but not as good 13.isn't that just a hidden 2rax? it's a little cute but not like he can't recover. 14.generic posting in forums and whining about terran edit: total 4 yes and 2 maybes imo btw... i play z | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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xbankx
703 Posts
On May 19 2011 01:40 kerpal wrote: which is intriguing, cause every time idra makes a unit he DOESN'T MAKE A DRONE so is sacrificing econ for aggression... if he doesn't do damage with that unit he's in trouble! what a cheeser. Pretty much unless every player goes for a fast 3rd its a 2 base all in in his mind. He always say zerg has no aggressive option versus toss. Yet when we watch Nestea play. There are so many 2 base timings to abuse against certain toss builds like ling/hydra versus pheonix opening+roach ling versus 3 gate sentry expand. | ||
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