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I haven’t seen polls like this in a while, and with new maps and new patches through 1.3.3 maybe it’s time for it. And with the recent super early 3 rax cheese to GM thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517, I have been thinking about cheese and early game all-ins more. Exposure is the best way to either find solutions, educate the curious, show what is weak or strong, or maybe even show something that is a little too strong at certain levels. I also think educating the less competitive about unforgiving but scoutable early play only helps SC2 increase in popularity. Everybody has some friends who play casually, but are turned off from ladder from losing too much to things they don’t understand.
Personally, extreme cheese isn’t my favorite tactic, but it’s an important part of the game and I want to understand it more. Moreover, I am very curious about the TL opinion on this. A few polls to follow.
Which race matchups has best results with cheese or 1 base all-ins, but doesn’t necessarily depend on them?
Poll: Which race matchups has best results with cheese or 1 base all-ins, buPvP (77) 44% PvZ (25) 14% TvZ (24) 14% TvP (17) 10% ZvP (12) 7% PvT (8) 5% ZvZ (8) 5% ZvT (2) 1% TvT (1) 1% 174 total votes Your vote: Which race matchups has best results with cheese or 1 base all-ins, bu (Vote): PvP
(Vote): PvZ
(Vote): PvT
(Vote): ZvP
(Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): TvP
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvT
Which racial matchups depend more on cheese or 1 base all-ins? To put a number on it, let’s say the race has to use cheese or 1 base all-ins 50% of the time or more to have a good win percentage on ladder or a shot at winning a tournament? In other words, what race is forced to cheese?
Poll: Which racial matchups depend more on cheese or 1 base all-ins? To put PvP (63) 64% PvZ (9) 9% TvZ (8) 8% ZvP (6) 6% ZvZ (6) 6% TvP (6) 6% TvT (1) 1% PvT (0) 0% ZvT (0) 0% 99 total votes Your vote: Which racial matchups depend more on cheese or 1 base all-ins? To put (Vote): PvP
(Vote): PvZ
(Vote): PvT
(Vote): ZvP
(Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): TvP
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvT
How many decent, meaning usable on ladder or tournaments, early cheese and 1 base all-ins can you name per race? If a cheese is usable in two matchups, count it twice.
Example: Cannon rush counts as 2 because it can work against P and Z but you never see it vs T (or do you?).
Protoss:
Poll: How many decent early cheese/ 1 base all-ins for Protoss?P has 14 or more (49) 57% P has 1 to 5 (22) 26% P has 6 to 9 (8) 9% P has 10 to 13 (7) 8% 86 total votes Your vote: How many decent early cheese/ 1 base all-ins for Protoss? (Vote): P has 1 to 5
(Vote): P has 6 to 9
(Vote): P has 10 to 13
(Vote): P has 14 or more
Zerg:
Poll: How many decent cheese/1 base allin per Zerg?Z has 1 to 5 (66) 69% Z has 14 or more (16) 17% Z has 6 to 9 (11) 11% Z has 10 to 13 (3) 3% 96 total votes Your vote: How many decent cheese/1 base allin per Zerg? (Vote): Z has 1 to 5
(Vote): Z has 6 to 9
(Vote): Z has 10 to 13
(Vote): Z has 14 or more
Terran:
Poll: How many Terran cheeses and 1 base allins?T has 14 or more (66) 73% T has 10 to 13 (11) 12% T has 1 to 5 (8) 9% T has 6 to 9 (5) 6% 90 total votes Your vote: How many Terran cheeses and 1 base allins? (Vote): T has 1 to 5
(Vote): T has 6 to 9
(Vote): T has 10 to 13
(Vote): T has 14 or more
The flipside to standard cheesey play, which race has better options to recovery from cheese or cheese in an economic manner... I’ll call it “economic cheese”? Possible examples (these aren’t proven and may be completely incorrect... but I need examples): Zerg can 10 pool pressure to force a Protoss wall-in, then expand and drone heavily to come out ahead. Protoss can build a stargate, show one phoenix, then immediately transition to colossus to be safe while using stored chronos on probes and pull way ahead economically. Terran can bunker rush or stim rush, then expand to gold and drop saved Mules.
Poll: Which race has best economic cheese?T (87) 78% Z (19) 17% P (5) 5% 111 total votes Your vote: Which race has best economic cheese? (Vote): P
(Vote): Z
(Vote): T
For all cheeses and 1 base all-ins... list the ones you can name or link to threads or articles that explain them. Feel free to include your position in ladder if you want to show what perspective you are coming from.
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pvz/zvp the most chesseable matchup :D
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can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
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Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
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On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
dont expect these results to be unbiased, random player results. they reflect which race has the most fans more than anything.
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On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
Not whining, i just feel that 14+ cheese/1base allins from T is abit exaggerated
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg:
2 rax bunker rush
4 rax pure marine
Fake expand into marine marauder timing
fast reactor helions
fast blue flame at front
fast blue flame drop
fast banshee
Thorship
need I go on?
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I think the classifications are too strict and reflect poorly on Zerg early game.
Zerg 2-base functions mostly the same as everybody elses 1-base play, so they are naturally going to have very few options if you are restricting yourself by # of bases rather than # of workers.
Either way, Terran gets my vote for economic cheese just by having the MULE.
As soon as you make your first OC, you're immediately mining on 2 more patches without even having to expand. That's some effective economy gain.
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as long as you do not define "cheese" its hard to rate anything.
i tried to take part in the poll, so i took a few minutes to think about what could be cheese and what could be a viable strategy and my conclusion is that there are only strategies.
i also tried to count the "allins" from all the races but i never got near a number of 10 o_0
you better go play some ladder than post in forums....imho
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
fast reactor hellions into CC is(or was) a standard mech strat,i dont see how fast hellions is cheese at all.
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
2rax pull scv, 2 rax bunker rush, 2 rax proxy
6 mega rax (or 3-5 with stim timing)
rush/proxy banshee (2 port and/or cloak)
1 base/2 base rush tank marine contain
4OC "hide-behind-wall" economy cheese
1rax/2rax fast marauder proxy
... the list goes on
EDIT: @ above, beat me to the punch, but some of those aren't cheese?
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
eh? Lets not start the "definition of cheese" debate... but most of those are just openings. Reactor hellions, blue flame hellions, fast banshee?
But anyways, it's impossible to count the amount of all-in cheeses because what separates one build from another?
Also, the answer to some of these questions are so obvious, seems kinda wierd to ask them.
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Can someone please explain to us what are the 14+ different DECENT 1 base all in that you know. Because I guess we need your knowledge on here...
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Which race has the best economic cheese? You mean which race can blindly expand and have poor defense in the hope that their opponent doesn't react?
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
You're just calling every T opener a cheese. Opening with hellions isn't a cheese, neither is opening with a 2 rax or with a banshee. The entire concept of the matchup is to open with certain tech that either does damage or forces a response.
Edit: Other people were faster /cry!
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
3-4rax stim allin*3, 2port cloaked banshee*1(vs Z), tank/marine/banshee allin*2(vs Z and P), 5-7rax allin*3, hellion/marauder allin*1(vs Z), marine/SCV allin*2(vs T and Z), Thor rush*2 (vs T & P, though it can work vs Z too), blue flame hellions drop*3...
maybe others might find even more stuff..
and I don't want to argue about how good some of them are, they are cheeses, they should have only a low winrate (if they had ~50%, standard play would be useless...)
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
If a cheese is usable in two matchups, count it twice.
Example: Cannon rush counts as 2 because it can work against P and Z but you never see it vs T (or do you?).
by this rule, terran has at least 30% more 1 base options than toss, and double compared to zerg
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On May 19 2011 01:04 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is. dont expect these results to be unbiased, random player results. they reflect which race has the most fans more than anything.
Well, not everybody is unbiased or tries to be. But maybe through discussion we can see where to concentrate if we want to play defensively or when we need to consider cheesing even if it's against our normal style.
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On May 19 2011 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:
I think the classifications are too strict and reflect poorly on Zerg early game.
Zerg 2-base functions mostly the same as everybody elses 1-base play, so they are naturally going to have very few options if you are restricting yourself by # of bases rather than # of workers.
Either way, Terran gets my vote for economic cheese just by having the MULE.
As soon as you make your first OC, you're immediately mining on 2 more patches without even having to expand. That's some effective economy gain.
Good point... I was sort of thinking along those lines but never figured out how to put it down correctly in the polls. Number of workers is not a bad way to look at it.
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I'd love to see someone manage to list 14 Protoss cheeses/1base allins.
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Could you add a poll for "what race whines the most about cheese/imbalance/other races"?
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO.
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Poll: Is this thread stupid ?Boxer (24) 62% Yes (11) 28% No (4) 10% 39 total votes Your vote: Is this thread stupid ? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Boxer
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On May 19 2011 01:04 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is. dont expect these results to be unbiased, random player results. they reflect which race has the most fans more than anything.
Pretty much this.
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On May 19 2011 01:16 branflakes14 wrote:
Which race has the best economic cheese? You mean which race can blindly expand and have poor defense in the hope that their opponent doesn't react?
I was trying to use this as a catch all. First I was thinking of what Tastosis said about Fruitdealer when he won the GSL, he did an economic cheese because he sort of looked like he was going all-in, then switched to mass drone pumping and came back in that one game against Rainbow(?). That made me think about Mules on gold and chronoing probes when you have a good defense.
So basically anything that is risky but gives an unusual amount of economic advantage. Maybe expanding blind is a good example, yeah. Maybe faking a rush and then expanding in such a way that the enemy can't respond... like fake 3 barracks but really go 1 barracks expand. Or fake a 4 gate and take a gold????
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On May 19 2011 01:28 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO.
Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into.
if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also.
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Stop abusing the word cheese, you're just increasing it's prevalence.
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Economic cheese = recovery from cheese = MULEs. No contest. Terran.
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I voted "stop overusing "cheese" and "all-in" ".
I remember a recent game where the Zerg got to about 60 drones, then stopped producing drones. He only produced units and went into aggression mode. People were like "he's all-in"... Can't remember which exact game it was but come on...
I also remember a game where Protoss did a DT expand, and people called it "cheese"...
The examples are aplenty.
There comes a time when one must stop blindly categorizing strats.
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On May 19 2011 01:31 AlBundy wrote:
I voted "stop overusing "cheese" and "all-in" ".
I remember a recent game where the Zerg got to about 60 drones, then stopped producing drones. He only produced units and went into aggression mode. People were like "he's all-in"... Can't remember which exact game it was but come on...
I also remember a game where Protoss did a DT expand, and people called it "cheese"...
The examples are aplenty.
There comes a time when one must stop blindly categorizing strats.
Im quite sure that game is july vs nada in metalopolis
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Should be added to the OP, imo:
Poll: What is your favorite type of cheese?All of the above (4) 21% Zerg tears (3) 16% Hallucinated Void Rays LOL (3) 16% Other (3) 16% Swiss (the one with holes) (2) 11% U.S.A.! (American) (1) 5% Cheddah (1) 5% No More 4gate! (1) 5% Fuck Banshees (1) 5% 19 total votes Your vote: What is your favorite type of cheese? (Vote): U.S.A.! (American)
(Vote): Swiss (the one with holes)
(Vote): Cheddah
(Vote): Zerg tears
(Vote): Hallucinated Void Rays LOL
(Vote): No More 4gate!
(Vote): Fuck Banshees
(Vote): All of the above
(Vote): Other
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people keep saying 'need i continue' or 'and the list goes on' when they get to about 4-5 cheeses.
14+ is absurd maybe 4-5 for terran (1 base mass rax, proxy rax, bunker rush, proxy/2port banshee) more depending on how you count variations of these.
EDIT: how could i forget marine+scv 'semi all-ins' 
for z... early pool, roach rush, baneling bust.. 3, again more with variations on how many roaches or when the banes come.. perhaps slow drop but i've never seen anyone try that.
protoss, proxy voids, proxy gates, 4 gate, cannon rush, DT rush (maybe, although less cheesy with the archon buff) so 4-5 again
imo z has the worst cheeses because of larvae making any recovery so difficult, and they are very scoutable as mostly require you to not expand which will always raise suspicions,
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On May 19 2011 01:30 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:28 Huragius wrote:On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO. Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into. if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also.
True that. Everything that is just not defending is an all-in because I think Idra has put into the minds of many players if you attack you are all in because there is a chance that you don't do enough damage.
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I'm seriously wondering if this thread is very useful... It's gonna end on balance between races...
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On May 19 2011 01:38 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:30 Skyze wrote:On May 19 2011 01:28 Huragius wrote:On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO. Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into. if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also. True that. Everything that is just not defending is an all-in because I think Idra has put into the minds of many players if you attack you are all in because there is a chance that you don't do enough damage.
which is intriguing, cause every time idra makes a unit he DOESN'T MAKE A DRONE so is sacrificing econ for aggression... if he doesn't do damage with that unit he's in trouble! what a cheeser.
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
1) Marine SCV all in
2) cloaked banshee rush
3) marine/ tank push into bunker contain
4) 4 rax stim timing
5) ghost rush and all of its variants
6) marine thor SCV all in
7) marine raven banshee push
8) fake 1 rax expand into 7 rax all in
9) blue flame hellion rush (not quite all in, but if it doesn't do a bunch of damage you're pretty behind)
10) 2 port banshee
11) tank marine banshee pressure/contain
12) proxy thor rush
13) maka rax
14) <generic 1 base play that transitions into losing the game then whining about imbalance>
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OK, I play more Protoss than anything so let me take a shot at a list with somereasoning. Obviously these builds don't have to be all-ins, but they can be if played in that fashion.
+1 Korean 4 gate is when you go all zealots an pull workers off gas right? PvP only I think.
+3 regular fast 4 gate vs all races.
+2 fake expand into 4 gate, sentry heavy. Saw it against Z and T in GSL.
+2 dark templar rush. I think it's garbage PvP, might work on ladder PvZ, and see it GSL PvT. Personally I think it's very risky though.
+2 Air, usually voidrays, + gateway unit rush against Z and T off one-base.
+1 Double stargate voidrays... saw someone try it in old GSL. Maybe someone against Idra. Is it legit?
+2 Blink stalkers from one base. Almost forgot this but saw Naniwa do it vs Thorzaine. PvT. I guess you could consider it an all-in for PvP, but it seems more like a transition build to me.
So I get 12 or 13 that I can think of that seem different and usable.
I don't think there are any obvious all-ins with heavy phoenixes, immortals, colossus, or other tech that I can think of. Maybe somone else would consider 3 gate robo immortal a usable 1 base strat, but it doesn't seem like it can kill very well.
If we get some decent links that aren't obvious, I'll put them in the OP. Some obvious ones to follow.
Links:
Korean 4 Warpgate
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Korean_4_Warpgate_All_In_(vs._Protoss)
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On May 19 2011 01:43 Jonas  wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
1) Marine SCV all in 2) cloaked banshee rush 3) marine/ tank push into bunker contain 4) 4 rax stim timing 5) ghost rush and all of its variants 6) marine thor SCV all in 7) marine raven banshee push 8) fake 1 rax expand into 7 rax all in 9) blue flame hellion rush (not quite all in, but if it doesn't do a bunch of damage you're pretty behind) 10) 2 port banshee 11) tank marine banshee pressure/contain 12) proxy thor rush 13) maka rax 14) <generic 1 base play that transitions into losing the game then whining about imbalance>
1. yes
2. doubt it
3. ????
(profit)
4.maybe
5.never seen this, don't know
6.yes, but you can't list every possible point in the game as a point where terran can pull all workers and all-in as a seperate cheese.
7.sounds pretty solid to me.
8.yes
9.oh shit he built hellions gg.
10. yeah.
11.isn't that what terran wants to do every game? marine tank is what terrans go vs z..
12.essentially the same as 6 but not as good
13.isn't that just a hidden 2rax? it's a little cute but not like he can't recover.
14.generic posting in forums and whining about terran
edit: total 4 yes and 2 maybes imo
btw... i play z
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I have a feeling this is just going to turn into a whine thread where people will just bitch at each other, and subtly complain about balance :/
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On May 19 2011 01:40 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:38 xbankx wrote:On May 19 2011 01:30 Skyze wrote:On May 19 2011 01:28 Huragius wrote:On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO. Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into. if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also. True that. Everything that is just not defending is an all-in because I think Idra has put into the minds of many players if you attack you are all in because there is a chance that you don't do enough damage. which is intriguing, cause every time idra makes a unit he DOESN'T MAKE A DRONE so is sacrificing econ for aggression... if he doesn't do damage with that unit he's in trouble! what a cheeser.
Pretty much unless every player goes for a fast 3rd its a 2 base all in in his mind. He always say zerg has no aggressive option versus toss. Yet when we watch Nestea play. There are so many 2 base timings to abuse against certain toss builds like ling/hydra versus pheonix opening+roach ling versus 3 gate sentry expand.
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On May 19 2011 01:43 Jonas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
1) Marine SCV all in 2) cloaked banshee rush 3) marine/ tank push into bunker contain 4) 4 rax stim timing 5) ghost rush and all of its variants 6) marine thor SCV all in 7) marine raven banshee push 8) fake 1 rax expand into 7 rax all in 9) blue flame hellion rush (not quite all in, but if it doesn't do a bunch of damage you're pretty behind) 10) 2 port banshee 11) tank marine banshee pressure/contain 12) proxy thor rush 13) maka rax 14) <generic 1 base play that transitions into losing the game then whining about imbalance>
1)wow, so u are saying pressure/contain/push is cheese/allin?
2) maka rax/marine scv allin should be listed as one tbh, they basically follow the same opening (2 rax)
3)this is the same with thor rushes/thor allins etc
4) you mean 4 rax rine allin? 4 rax stim timing is a standard strat in any bio FE build..
5) Cloak banshee rush making you behind if it fails really depends on the general strat you are doing..There are economical strats which make use of fast cloak banshees.
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On May 19 2011 01:53 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:40 kerpal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:38 xbankx wrote:On May 19 2011 01:30 Skyze wrote:On May 19 2011 01:28 Huragius wrote:On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? Wow, fast reactor hellions, blue flame drop, and banshee are cheese ? I hope you realise that after these openings Terran almost always expands ? So I guess every zerg cheeses in ZvT (*coug Muta *Cough) All these openings are cheese, but DT openings are not, stargate openings are not, fast roaches to harass teching terran is not, baneling busting FE terran is simply punishing him for being greedy and etc. Wow, I can well the bias already. Worthless thread IMO. Yep, basically every build in the game is considered cheese. thats what this community has turned SC into. if the game doesnt go into the 45+ minute mark, with every mineral in the game mined out, its considered all-in also. True that. Everything that is just not defending is an all-in because I think Idra has put into the minds of many players if you attack you are all in because there is a chance that you don't do enough damage. which is intriguing, cause every time idra makes a unit he DOESN'T MAKE A DRONE so is sacrificing econ for aggression... if he doesn't do damage with that unit he's in trouble! what a cheeser. Pretty much unless every player goes for a fast 3rd its a 2 base all in in his mind. He always say zerg has no aggressive option versus toss. Yet when we watch Nestea play. There are so many 2 base timings to abuse against certain toss builds like ling/hydra versus pheonix opening+roach ling versus 3 gate sentry expand.
i wasn't raging against idra there, just joking that of course we all sac econ to build units, if that made something cheese then there would indeed be 20+ cheeses for t/p and about 1000000 different variants on cheese for zerg.
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On May 19 2011 01:43 Jonas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
1) Marine SCV all in 2) cloaked banshee rush 3) marine/ tank push into bunker contain 4) 4 rax stim timing 5) ghost rush and all of its variants 6) marine thor SCV all in 7) marine raven banshee push 8) fake 1 rax expand into 7 rax all in 9) blue flame hellion rush (not quite all in, but if it doesn't do a bunch of damage you're pretty behind) 10) 2 port banshee 11) tank marine banshee pressure/contain 12) proxy thor rush 13) maka rax 14) <generic 1 base play that transitions into losing the game then whining about imbalance>
Note: If loosing your units without doing anything with them is considered allin, then most things you do can be considered allins.
3 is hardly an allin(and less so cheese). rine/tank push doesn't require bunkers, so adding acontain there is just stupid.
5 I suppose depends on what exactly you are talking about.
6 and 12 are basically the same thing.
9 and 10 are neither allins. If you don't loose your hellions due to greed or stupidity, you are in decent shape with a lot of map control.
Tbh a lot of these things are kind of "i mean toss can do a 1 gate and pull probes with the zlot and make allin". Terran is just a race dependent on harassing or making the opponent play very defensively, so a lot of the attacks are basically qq.
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How the hell are there 14+ all-in builds.
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On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
The point is that these poll results don't reflect how volatile each matchup is whatsoever.
In fact, the premise that more effective one base builds is strongly correlated with volatility of the matchup is flawed as well.
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I'm curious to why so many people voted for 14+ one base all ins for Zerg. Are you guys being serious?
6 pool
baneling bust
7 roach rush
Someone post the other 11.
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On May 19 2011 02:06 Attica wrote:
I'm curious to why so many people voted for 14+ one base all ins for Zerg. Are you guys being serious?
6 pool
baneling bust
7 roach rush
Someone post the other 11.
According to the OP, that is 9 right there.
They count for 1 for each matchup. So 6 pool counts 3 times etc.
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On May 19 2011 01:13 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? fast reactor hellions into CC is(or was) a standard mech strat,i dont see how fast hellions is cheese at all.
To answer this (+other similar posts)
Yes, you're right I was a little hasty with some of those. Though to be fair, the sheer number of options that terran can go, that if the zerg doesn't manage to scout it and prepare perfectly, the terran gets a roll-over is getting a little absurd, and it seems to be increasing by the day.
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Most zerg biased thread ever, just what we need.
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On May 19 2011 02:09 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:13 thoradycus wrote:On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? fast reactor hellions into CC is(or was) a standard mech strat,i dont see how fast hellions is cheese at all. To answer this (+other similar posts) Yes, you're right I was a little hasty with some of those. Though to be fair, the sheer number of options that terran can go, that if the zerg doesn't manage to scout it and prepare perfectly, the terran gets a roll-over is getting a little absurd, and it seems to be increasing by the day.
it's hard, but it would be easier if they WERE cheeses, cause then you'd essentially be winning by holding them off, instead you hold them off and are maybe at a slight advantage.. maybe not.
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On May 19 2011 02:12 SuperStyle wrote:
Most zerg biased thread ever, just what we need.
TL.net is extremely zerg-biased, been forever...
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On May 19 2011 02:09 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:13 thoradycus wrote:On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on? fast reactor hellions into CC is(or was) a standard mech strat,i dont see how fast hellions is cheese at all. To answer this (+other similar posts) Yes, you're right I was a little hasty with some of those. Though to be fair, the sheer number of options that terran can go, that if the zerg doesn't manage to scout it and prepare perfectly, the terran gets a roll-over is getting a little absurd, and it seems to be increasing by the day.
in this case you r quite right. terrans do have alot of options, and sometimes very deadly ones, just disagree that some of those could be classified as cheese/allin
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Somebody tell me why cheese is called cheese!?!?
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On May 19 2011 02:15 MrStorkie wrote:
Somebody tell me why cheese is called cheese!?!?
Because:- People either love it or hate it.
- It's full of holes.
- You can smell it from a mile away.
- It doesn't deserve a thread.
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EPT
